chain routing causes

Was sitting in Antitoch with about 930 men and a 8 star general versus some 3000 spanish who invaded. The battle was going well, then suddenly almost all my men rout and the general takes flight. The battle ends with my kill number being higher, yet I lost (because of the routing)! I looked at the general's stats;

great attacker
excellent defender
sometimes timorous
often retreats

Is this last the killer? I decided to retire this general and send him back to Wessex (where he has his title from) and let him live out his retirement in peace.

Hover the mouse over the Vice and it will tell you what it causes (usually a morale drop). Were your troops outflanked or partially surrounded?

"Often Retreats" is one of the "coward" line of vices, which affects morale. Also you were outnumbered more than 3 to one which, IIRC, also affects morale.

Excerpted from the Numerology thread over at the .com: http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...art=41&stop=52

*** Negative Morale Modifiers ***

-3 Morale for units being "Very Tired"
-6 Morale for units being "Exhausted"
-8 Morale for units being "Completely Exhausted"
-2 Morale for being shot at by Missles
-4 Morale if those Missiles "Cause Fear" (ie Cannon)
-4 Morale is outnumbered by the enemy at 2:1
-12 Morale maximum if outnumbered by the enemy 10:1 (could be less)
-2 Morale if a flank is threatened
-6 Morale if both flanks or a flank and the rear is threatened
-4 Morale if charged on a flank
-6 Morale additional if infantry is charged on a flank by Cavalry
-8 Morale if charged on a flank by a hidden unit
-2 Morale if unit takes 10% casualties
-8 Morale if unit takes 50% casualties
-12 Morale if unit takes 80% casualties
-8 Morale maximum if unit is "Losing" (could be less)
-6 Morale additional to infantry "Losing" against Cavalry
-12 Morale maximum if two or more friendly units rout (could be less, depending on type)
-8 Morale immediately following General's death (temporary)
-2 Morale permanently following General's death (does not impact Elite or Disciplined units)

*** The MTW/VI Vices and Virtues List ***

Expert Defender
He is an expert in defence, well known for his ability to exploit terrain, lay ambushes, and force attackers in to unwise decisions. +2 Command when defending.


Retreats often
He seems to always be retreating, perhaps because he's always given impossible positions to defend. -1 Loyalty, -4 Morale.

Timorous
He has fought many battles but seldom gets into combat himself. His men joke about this, but it also lurks in their minds as they are placed in harm's way. -4 morale, -1 valour.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Regarding your General, his V&V's are mostly negative for morale - i.e., the Expert Defender gives a boost (due to command stars) to nearby troops, but it's more than offset by the negatives from the others.

As for your army, look over the morale negative modifiers: there are so many that could have applied to your men in that situation, it's hard to see how they could have held.

P.S. That V&V list was posted earlier this year by Grey Fox - Cheers!

I had something like this happen to me yesterday. I have an XL campaign with the Knights Hospitaller, late/hard, and I was in posession of Egypt. My heir was in charge of a mostly full stack of arbalesters, order foot, and mounted x-bows, which, most of which had an armor+2 upgrade.

The Eggies attacked with a slight numerical advantage and an army comprised of mostly saharan cav and mameluk cav, with a unit of Mongol heavy cav (hehe), desert archers, and a couple of nubian spearmen. A few turns prior I had annihilated an Egyptian army of mostly the same composition in the same territory, so I thought the battle would be no big thing. Boy was I wrong.

The cav charged my line of arbs, who got off some salvos but did not do as much damage as I wanted. One unit got caught by the Mameluks before it could retreat behind my order foot, and routed almost immediately. So when the MHC hit a perfect unit of order foot, they too routed almost immediately even after taking hardly any casualties. Next, my whole line routed, except for my two Knights Hospitaller and one unit of order foot, which almost carried the day, killing the MHC, the mameluks, the spearmen, just about everyone. Every other unit routed and was butchered almost to a man, with most running off, rallying, and routing again before they even got back to the Egyptians. The mameluks and the saharans made short work of them, to my dismay.

My general fought valiantly, but died a short while later when the reserve mameluk cav hit his ragtag line. It was sluaghter. I did, however, kill more of them than they killed of me, but it was a close thing, and that was only because of my heir's heroism.

Now, the chain route, I believe, was due to my heir. He had the gluttony vice, which carried a -6 morale penalty (I think). This hadn't been a problem before, but I think that it was when combined with the desert--the armor made my guys tired from just standing there...

You would think I learned my lesson, but the very next turn I took Egypt back from its rightful owners with a large invasion, consisting mostly of Knights Hospitaller, order foot, and arbs... :laugh4:

Good point, I figured it was the general. The next replay I pulled the general out bringing in a replacement, about same numbers 1150 to 3300, yet I pulled off a stunning victory. Having a few more reinforcements helped, but mainly nobody panicked and the general didn't start squacking. Yeah, a bad general will just ruin your day:wall: .

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Originally Posted by gaijinalways

Good point, I figured it was the general. The next replay I pulled the general out bringing in a replacemnet, about same numbers 1150 to 3300, yet I pulled off a stunning victory. Having a few more reinforcements helped, but mainly nobody panicked and the general didn't start squacking. Yeah, a bad general will just ruin your day:wall: .

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Yep, you can have the best general in the world stat-wise (command, dread, etc.); but he'll still be useless if he's got traits that give his men morale penalties.

A general with -8 morale is useless, even if he's 8-star. Bad luck gaijinalways, just retire your general to governor-duty if he's got good acumen.

As a rule of tumb, any general with a total morale worse than -3 is useless, no matter his stars.

Gluttany generals can also be problematic as it gives a -8 morale penalty to the general unit (-4 valour = -8 morale), making him very prone to rout, causing chain routs and/or "good runner" vices.

Actually I decided to suicide him as I didn't want him taking charge if the Irish decided to invade again. Besides, retirement didn't please him.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Yep, you can have the best general in the world stat-wise (command, dread, etc.); but he'll still be useless if he's got traits that give his men morale penalties.

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sorry for posing this question again, which doubtlessly has already been asked a thousand times: does dread actually have an impact in combat? I thought its use was restricted to raising loyalty in a province below 50% zeal.....so if your your general has high dread, are the enemy afraid of him and become more prone to rout? or do your own units remain on the battlefield longer due to fear of punishment?

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Originally Posted by Deus ret.

sorry for posing this question again, which doubtlessly has already been asked a thousand times: does dread actually have an impact in combat? I thought its use was restricted to raising loyalty in a province below 50% zeal.....so if your your general has high dread, are the enemy afraid of him and become more prone to rout? or do your own units remain on the battlefield longer due to fear of punishment?

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There has been no recorded effect of dread on the battlefield.

Dread has no effect on the battlefield, unless it's due to V&V's that affect morale - but it is the vice, not the dread, that impacts your fighting men.

Dread is for governors and faction leaders, it impacts provincial happiness (loyalty) positively and nothing else. It's a pity that dread wasn't implimented as a factor on the battlefield, it could have been interesting.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Dread is for governors and faction leaders, it impacts provincial happiness (loyalty) positively and nothing else. It's a pity that dread wasn't implimented as a factor on the battlefield, it could have been interesting.

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LOL A dreaded general rides along the battle-line and the enemy just routs when they see him :laugh4:

But seriously, it could have had some negative morale modifiers to fight with a high dread general :skull::skull::skull::skull::skull::skull::skull:

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Originally Posted by Biggus Diccus

LOL A dreaded general rides along the battle-line and the enemy just routs when they see him :laugh4:

But seriously, it could have had some negative morale modifiers to fight with a high dread general :skull::skull::skull::skull::skull::skull::skull:

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Actually the question is if they would fight harder? As a dreaded general is likely to kill you if you're captured...
Although the army would be more careful of actually engaging.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

Actually the question is if they would fight harder? As a dreaded general is likely to kill you if you're captured...
Although the army would be more careful of actually engaging.

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I've actually seen a 900+ strong Egyptian army vacate a province when faced with 3 units of Gothic Knights led by my 9 Dread 4 star Jedi General, who happened to ba a Murderer, a Butcher *and* a Natural Born Killer.

They didn't even hole up in the castle either, they completely left the province. And no, their Sultan was not in that province.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Dread is for governors and faction leaders, it impacts provincial happiness (loyalty) positively and nothing else. It's a pity that dread wasn't implimented as a factor on the battlefield, it could have been interesting.

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I agree. In fact, I remember reading that this was actually going to be implemented in the game at one point. A general would supposedly inflict a negative morale penalty against an enemy army, based on how high his dread rating was. Why this feature was never implemented, I don't know. It would've been pretty cool if it had, though.

I agree, having a fearsome general should help in battles. As a side note, I counted up the vices for my general who died a martyr, and there was something like a -19 for morale!

Timorous
Blood lover
retreats often
another negative vice

No wonder the troops were bolting as soon as one unit routed:idea2: !

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Originally Posted by gaijinalways

I agree, having a fearsome general should help in battles. As a side note, I counted up the vices for my general who died a martyr, and there was something like a -19 for morale!

Timorous
Blood lover
retreats often
another negative vice

No wonder the troops were bolting as soon as one unit routed:idea2: !

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Yikes. With morale penalties like that, I think the question becomes not, "Why did your men run away?"; but rather "Why did they ever take the field in the first place?" :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by rvg

I've actually seen a 900+ strong Egyptian army vacate a province when faced with 3 units of Gothic Knights led by my 9 Dread 4 star Jedi General, who happened to ba a Murderer, a Butcher *and* a Natural Born Killer.

They didn't even hole up in the castle either, they completely left the province. And no, their Sultan was not in that province.

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Then the question is if it was quality troops in that Egyptian army. You play unmodded? I ask, because the Egypts has the heaviest tendency of peasant spamming of all factions unmodded.
Getting the comp to face your elite troops can be quite annoying.

They rout entirely from a province occationally if the comp judge that he can't re-conquer the province.

Nothing to do with the generals dread.

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Originally Posted by gaijinalways

As a side note, I counted up the vices for my general who died a martyr, and there was something like a -19 for morale!

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You mean they actually saw the enemy before routing? I mean I was pleasantly surpriced when I my -5 morale troops deared to charge uphill vs a superior army, without routing of the initial charge.

That they then got massacrated and routed seconds later, due to massive losses is another matter. ~;p

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Originally Posted by Martok

I agree. In fact, I remember reading that this was actually going to be implemented in the game at one point. A general would supposedly inflict a negative morale penalty against an enemy army, based on how high his dread rating was. Why this feature was never implemented, I don't know. It would've been pretty cool if it had, though.

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You know Henry V won the battle of Agincourt among other things because, when at the end of the battle the French cavalry almost had reached the French prisoners taken, over a thousand by that time, he ordered to kill the prisoners to prevent that they joined the battle again, almost certainly leading to a defeat for the English. When the French cavalry saw that happening, they fled in terror.

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Originally Posted by Martok

I agree. In fact, I remember reading that this was actually going to be implemented in the game at one point. A general would supposedly inflict a negative morale penalty against an enemy army, based on how high his dread rating was. Why this feature was never implemented, I don't know. It would've been pretty cool if it had, though.

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I would have liked to have seen it implimented as a double edged sword. E.g:

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Hypothetical:

0 dread: no effect

1 - 4 dread: has the effect of increasing his men's morale and causing fear to the enemy (norale penalty)

5 - 6 dread: increases his men's morale but also starts to push enemies back up at the same time. Their overriding fear of being captured by such a butcher may have something to do with that.

7 - 9 dread: this murderous commander has totally lost the respect of his men which demoralises them and heartens his enemies who are all to well aware of this.

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Loyalty and piety could have also played a part on the field. Piety could have increased the morale of pious units serving under a pious commander (depending on his piety level). Loyalty could also have given a very small morale bonus/penalty. Realistically those 1 loyalty units are not going to stick around to the bitter end, wheras the 8(+) loyalty units may be more likely to do so. This would give you the scenarios where those horribly disloyal troops turn and run in the middle of a battle.

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Originally Posted by Ciaran

You know Henry V won the battle of Agincourt among other things because, when at the end of the battle the French cavalry almost had reached the French prisoners taken, over a thousand by that time, he ordered to kill the prisoners to prevent that they joined the battle again, almost certainly leading to a defeat for the English. When the French cavalry saw that happening, they fled in terror.

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Speaking of Agincourt and chain routing, I was playing the historical campaign the other day and I have not been able to win at Agincourt.

First, I tried hiding my spears/Billmen in the woods to force the cavalry to fight at a disadvantage and skirmished with my longbows. Well my longbows were annihilated, no surprise but I thought they would inflict some punishement (not), then my spears routed in the forest and I was crushed. :oops: :charge:

Second I tried building a half-hexagon of billmen and spears with my longbows packed in the middle and some FMAA at the back to stiffen spines. I then tried to hit the flanks of the on rushing French Hvy Cav horde with all of my Knights when they were pinned on the spears. This was working beautifully until my billmen, for some unknown reason, tried to advance even though they were on hold position, hold formation. :wall:
Of course my lines were disrupted and everyone routed and was cut down. ~:eek: ~:eek: :skull: :skull:

I'll tell you what's not best in life: "to be crushed by my enemy, see my troops driven before me and to hear the lamentation of my women..."

Any advice? Seems like the longbowmen don't have enough time to inflict the kind of damage they did historically and the cavalry is not hampered at all by the mud.

what an excelent thread!!! iT's answered alot off my own questions.

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Originally Posted by Maharajah

Speaking of Agincourt and chain routing, I was playing the historical campaign the other day and I have not been able to win at Agincourt.

First, I tried hiding my spears/Billmen in the woods to force the cavalry to fight at a disadvantage and skirmished with my longbows. Well my longbows were annihilated, no surprise but I thought they would inflict some punishement (not), then my spears routed in the forest and I was crushed. :oops: :charge:

Second I tried building a half-hexagon of billmen and spears with my longbows packed in the middle and some FMAA at the back to stiffen spines. I then tried to hit the flanks of the on rushing French Hvy Cav horde with all of my Knights when they were pinned on the spears. This was working beautifully until my billmen, for some unknown reason, tried to advance even though they were on hold position, hold formation. :wall:
Of course my lines were disrupted and everyone routed and was cut down. ~:eek: ~:eek: :skull: :skull:

I'll tell you what's not best in life: "to be crushed by my enemy, see my troops driven before me and to hear the lamentation of my women..."

Any advice? Seems like the longbowmen don't have enough time to inflict the kind of damage they did historically and the cavalry is not hampered at all by the mud.

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I did the following:
I positioned the Chiv Sergeants (in the center - CS need their flanks protected at all cost) and the Billmen in a line at the hedge that marks the edge of the big field (there´s a minimal rise in terrain - maybe enough for a small uphill bonus) The Longbows were positioned behind them. The swords I put into the woods on the left flank, the French don´t have any infantry to speak of, but loads of cavalry and if those caught my swords in the open, there´d be hell to pay. My own cavalry went to the back. After that it was mainly downhill - the French came up rather slowly, and my Longbows could pick off a good number before they even met my infantry. The swords in the woods on the left flank could hold their own, in the center my CS routed, but rushing King Harry into the breach prevented the breakthrough. The billmen protected the flanks by attacking (important - they need to rush out and attack) the French that tried to move around the inner flanks (between the battle line and the trees on either side). That caused the French units to present their flanks to my reserve cavalry, of which I took advantage. When the Longbows had spent their arrows I placed them in the woods as well where they could hold their own well enough. And that was it, basically.

Sorry, can somebody please just clarify this for me?

Do V&V morale modifiers apply to just the unit with that V&V, or to the entire army?

I was under the impression that all morale modifiers applied to that unit only, including those from the general's vices. Is it actually that the general's morale-modifying V&Vs affect the whole army? (And if so, does each unit receive additional penalties for their own V&Vs or not?)

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Zild

Sorry, can somebody please just clarify this for me?

Do V&V morale modifiers apply to just the unit with that V&V, or to the entire army?

I was under the impression that all morale modifiers applied to that unit only, including those from the general's vices. Is it actually that the general's morale-modifying V&Vs affect the whole army? (And if so, does each unit receive additional penalties for their own V&Vs or not?)

Thanks.

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The general's morale v&v affects the hole army. I don't think the units recive additional penalties or bonuses due to thier own v&v, but that's uncertain as I haven't been testing that.

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Originally Posted by Ironside

The general's morale v&v affects the hole army.

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so if he's a glutton then all his men will suffer the same -6 or so to valour....? I know that the general's vnvs affect the morale of units under his command, but as to the valour I was pretty sure it only counted for his own unit. an army led by a general with 'famous warrior' or the like and +3 valour would be too hard to overcome if this bonus counted for the whole of his troops - after all, that would equal the impact of a six-star leader!

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Originally Posted by Deus ret.

so if he's a glutton then all his men will suffer the same -6 or so to valour....? I know that the general's vnvs affect the morale of units under his command, but as to the valour I was pretty sure it only counted for his own unit. an army led by a general with 'famous warrior' or the like and +3 valour would be too hard to overcome if this bonus counted for the whole of his troops - after all, that would equal the impact of a six-star leader!

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That isn't counted as a morale v&v (aka those who explicity says morale penatly/bonus in the description), but a valour one. That -8 morale penalty (due to the loss of valour) can make the general unit prone to rout though. Ad that will make him see an early retirement very quickly.

Valour based v&v affects only the individual unit.

:oops: seems like I misread your previous post. sorry!

btw is that the way how vnv valour bonuses are counted? I mean, are they in the vein of valour points added by command stars or are they treated as if the unit actually had that much valour (which is mainly a question of morale bonus)?

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Originally Posted by Deus ret.

:oops: seems like I misread your previous post. sorry!

btw is that the way how vnv valour bonuses are counted? I mean, are they in the vein of valour points added by command stars or are they treated as if the unit actually had that much valour (which is mainly a question of morale bonus)?

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No worries.

It's a full valour value (aka the morale is affected).