Real-Life Hypocrisy

A quick story from the Lemur, live from the Lemur Estate:

We've engaged a local painting co. to help us with putting a new coat of color on our house. We're painting the first floor, and they're coming in to do the second and attic floors. We were assured that this guy was good, and that it was worth it to pay him a little extra.

So I told the gent that I didn't want him to use any illegal labor, and I expected that the premium we were paying would help toward workers with legit papers. He tells us of course.

First couple of days it's just him and his buddy, doing some of the fine detail work. They listen to nothing but Rush, all day long. They must have tapes of Rush or something, 'cause I'm pretty sure the fat man only broadcasts four hours a day. My wife finds this mildly upsetting, since she's a moderate like the Lemur, and she despises extremists. I tell her it's perfectly all right for the guys to listen to whatever they like. Admittedly, they're on our property, and I could probably make a case by asking them to not blast political invective while working for us, but it really doesn't seem worth it.

This morning the regular crew shows up. Guess what? They're all illegals. Every single one of them. Lovely guys, nice guys, but if they're citizens of the U.S.A. then I'm the Queen of Norway.

This Republican right-wing blowhard took our money, assured us that he wouldn't employ illegals, blasted his fat man propoganda all over our property, and now he's gone back on his word, made good on a lie, and compromised both his business integrity and his (supposed) Conservative views.

What a jerk. I'm going to have to look into the properr way to report him to I.N.S. I mean, seriously. What is it with these so-called "conservatives"? They talk a great game, and they can do the demagogue dance better than anyone, but once reality comes a-knockin' their principles go flying out the window.

If you can't tell, I'm really angry about this. Another frickin' Republican blowhard who talks the talk and can't walk the walk. And this scumbag thinks it's fine to pocket my money on one set of terms, then change the deal in mid-course. I hope he winds up as a Halliburton trucker in Iraq, the frickin' hypocrite.

Suggestions? Should I go straight to the I.N.S. or talk to local authorities first?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

This morning the regular crew shows up. Guess what? They're all illegals. Every single one of them. Lovely guys, nice guys, but if they're citizens of the U.S.A. then I'm the Queen of Norway.

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It's quite hypocritical all right, but are you sure they are illegal immigrants. I mean absolutely sure.

Theres hypocrites on the left, too. Really, all it boils down to is greed, and a "rules don't apply to me" attitude. It's like throwing a cup out of your car window on the interstate with the attitude that its only a cup. Well, those cups add up if a lot of people do it, eh?

I would go one step further if you are that mad. Go find some of his competitors who don't use illegal labor, and rat him out to them. Their desire to compete in the business world my contribute more change than just you calling the INS. They may get the chamber of commerce involved, or any guilds or unions.

Just out of curiousity, how are you so sure they were illegal?

They do listen to Rush afterall...surely that alone makes them Republican illegal blowhards.

Anyone who uses illegal labor should be shot.:wall:

The man wants some money... that seems natural to me. He just seems to be an idiot w/ how he goes about it. If you were serious about hurting his bidness over this, then MRD's I would guess to be the best solution.

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This morning the regular crew shows up. Guess what? They're all illegals. Every single one of them. Lovely guys, nice guys, but if they're citizens of the U.S.A. then I'm the Queen of Norway.

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Are you the Queen of Norway? Because if you are, then they could be legals.

IIRC Lemur lives in Wisconsion. Im pretty sure you can pick out the illegals there. Its not like here where they can hop the border and squat in Lardeo, Brownsvile, Harlingen, Del Rio ,McAllen, El Paso, Eagle Pass, Starr. These are the most poverty ridden crime infested parts of Texas and you wonder why? The crime rate goes up once you get closer to the border

How do you pick out the illegals?

Well if the were doing work for a painting company they were most likely mexican or another kind of latin. Spoke no english or had 1 guy who told them what to do. They probably smelled. Not to mention Im guessing all the latins in Wisconsion are better assimalted than in Texas or California or Arizona. Even here you can tell. If there young and dont speak english that is usually a dead giveaway.

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First couple of days it's just him and his buddy, doing some of the fine detail work. They listen to nothing but Rush, all day long. They must have tapes of Rush or something, 'cause I'm pretty sure the fat man only broadcasts four hours a day. My wife finds this mildly upsetting, since she's a moderate like the Lemur, and she despises extremists.

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When I initially read this paragraph I was about to post an outraged comment asking why Rush fans were extremists...then I realised you weren't talking about the band. :embarassed:

One question for ya though lemur, did ya confront the guy on him changing thet rules midway through? An #**hat like that deserve all that you can heap on him. MRD's post is a damn good way to get revenge on them lil greedy b******s. I don't understand how you could listen to the fat man for that long though, any extremist be he left right or in the middle (I'm sure there's some extremist moderates somewere, compromise, by the sword if neccesary.).
________________
Speak softly and carry tactical nukes.

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BigTex

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Ridicolus
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Suggestions? Should I go straight to the I.N.S. or talk to local authorities first?

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Call the Employment Standards Agency for your state - especially if there is an income tax department. Report his name and his company name and state that his work force consists of undocumented workers.

Then call the IRS and report him for tax fraud - this one is the most difficult because you will have to report the name of the company primarily. Hopefully he has a EIN that the IRS can use to prosecute him for tax fraud.

You can also report him as an individual for tax fraud to the IRS.

The INS is also a good choice.

If it was me I would do all three, plus the one the MRD suggested

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Originally Posted by The Black Ship

They do listen to Rush afterall...surely that alone makes them Republican illegal blowhards.

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Yep, pretty much. I gave the guy a shot in college, but there was too much hard blowing.

The fact that they are latino in wiscnsin and speak little English does not, in and of itself, make them illegal. Just because you don't hear them speaking English doesn't mean they don't know how. They may also have temporary work visas.

With the housing boom this situation has really gotten out of hand. From firsthand info I have gotten from my friends who do/have worked construction crews, the typical immigrant crew charges the contractor roughly 1/4of what the low end resident crews do. Note, that based on low end. My friend Joey stopped framing houses for $1.25 per square foot (thats low end, it goes anywhere from 1.00-2.50 depending on the home) and instead moved over to concrete framing. Why? A
latino crew of 20 men were offering the local home building contractors .30 cents per square foot. 30 cents, man. It took 8 ppl a week to do a 4 bedroom 2 bath, so it takes these guys 3 days or so. there is no possible way you can charge 30 cents per square foot and be paying everyone, at minimum, the minimum wage and be paying taxes on them. It's simply not possible.

The demand for this shoots all the way up the food chain, from the building contractor, to the real estate company, to the homebuilder.

The blame lies with more than the illegals.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Anyone who uses illegal labor should be shot.:wall:

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why? they're damn cheap, and dont do a bad job - they need the work, and i dont blame them for trying to get it (we had some illegals paint our flat 6 years ago now - this was in UK, and not really anything as important as painting a whole house) :2thumbsup:

I do agree that if you agree that the company wouldnt use illegals then its horrible of them to do otherwise, ~:mad

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

why? they're damn cheap

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Uhm ... of course they are - as by employing illegals you avoid e.g. paying taxes.

And of course they need the work - as do the people who work legally.

Being against employing illegals does not necessarily mean that you are blaming them for trying to get work, however, people who employ them can certainly be blamed for actually stealing from the society they live in.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

Well if the were doing work for a painting company they were most likely mexican or another kind of latin. Spoke no english or had 1 guy who told them what to do. They probably smelled. Not to mention Im guessing all the latins in Wisconsion are better assimalted than in Texas or California or Arizona. Even here you can tell. If there young and dont speak english that is usually a dead giveaway.

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So speaking no english is a dead giveaway for being illegal?

I know that citizens or those looking for citizenship have to pass certain english tests, but not people on visas or migrant worker status.

I really want to know how can one be so sure they're illegal...

And what's this about how they smelled? Illegals can be distinguished if they "smell"?

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Uhm ... of course they are - as by employing illegals you avoid e.g. paying taxes.

And of course they need the work - as do the people who work legally.

Being against employing illegals does not necessarily mean that you are blaming them for trying to get work, however, people who employ them can certainly be blamed for actually stealing from the society they live in.

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surely illegals add to society? they build houses ann then clean them etc. Yes, existing business's do struggle, but thats the market, --> thats badly explained

i'l try again, illegals become part of society, they are part of the community, I dont object to them taking other peoples jobs, because i think they deserve to have those jobs (despite using lack of tax to their advantage) - i can however only say this because im not yet competing with them for jobs (only 3 years away though) - so i might yet become a hypocrit :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Reenk Roink

So speaking no english is a dead giveaway for being illegal?

I know that citizens or those looking for citizenship have to pass certain english tests, but not people on visas or migrant worker status.

I really want to know how can one be so sure they're illegal...

And what's this about how they smelled? Illegals can be distinguished if they "smell"?

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The fact is this. The USofA lets millions of people legally immagrate. Its not like we shut them out. I dont millions of uneduacted povetry stricken people on my front lawn. Californias economy is already going into a tailspin becuase of this. I will be damned if TEXAS is to follow suit. Companies and illegals should be punished to the full extent. If you are a company hiring illegals we will shut you down FOREVER. Im sick of these people trying to cut corners and screwing good blue collar Americans over. That is the real tragedy of this everyone cares about the illegals but normal people get the shaft everyone wants to know whats going to happen with the poor little illegal its Incompatible language all of it. This country needs to wake up.

Calm down STFS, I was just asking how you would tell if someone is an illegal immigrant. I don't think not speaking english or "smell" are good indicators.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

. Im sick of these people trying to cut corners and screwing good blue collar Americans over. That is the real tragedy of this everyone cares about the illegals but normal people get the shaft everyone wants to know whats going to happen with the poor little illegal its all of it. This country needs to wake up.

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They want to be blue collar americans, they were born into a place worse than america, its only natural for them to migrate, i would if i was them, they have to cut corners because America wont let them in if not

A few clarifications --

• I know I'm really mad right now, so I'm going to hold off on making any calls until I've cooled down. Hasty actions taken while angry rarely work out the way you imagine. Better to take a measured, cold revenge than to fly off like a berserker.
  
• My Spanish is still pretty good, so I've been able to chat with the gents working on the house. "So it's hard to get work?" the lemur asks. "Oh yeah," the crew chief responds. "Trouble with the police?" He nods, "If you're not careful." And so forth. I'm pretty confident these gents are not legal.
  
• I have nothing against the people who come here to work. My problems are with (a) fairness, and (b) contribution. Let me break that down:

1. Fairness: One of my best friends emigrated here from Serbia. He had to go through a mountain of paperwork, and jump through multiple hoops for the I.N.S. to prove he was going to be a valuable member of the U.S.A. Likewise, there are people from all over the Earth who would like to work here. I don't understand why Central and South Americans should be priviledged to come here in much larger numbers just because of physical proximity. It doesn't seem fair.
2. Contribution: If one of these gentlemen outside my house has an accident, he will be taken care of by the medical system. His children will be educated by the public schools. It's entirely unfair for him not to be contributing full taxes. Moreover, it's unfair for his employer to take advantage of the lower wages, while shuffling the tax burden off onto everyone else in the community. He's taking advantage of lax enforcement to shove a whole bunch his rightful costs onto the town/county/state/country at large. It's unethical.

• Lastly, I'm sorry I brought conservative politics into this, but it really cheesed me off. And in my experience it's altogether typical. Am I generalizing from particulars to the general? Yes I am. Is it unfair? Probably. Is it unwarranted? Not entirely. "Conservative" Republicans have been dominating the landscape for six years, and I'm absolutely sick of the disconnect between rhetoric and action on the personal, local, state and national level. If they continue to hold absolute power for another four years, then we the American people deserve whatever ills befall us.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

A few clarifications --

[*]Lastly, I'm sorry I brought conservative politics into this, but it really cheesed me off. And in my experience it's altogether typical. Am I generalizing from particulars to the general? Yes I am. Is it unfair? Probably. Is it unwarranted? Not entirely. "Conservative" Republicans have been dominating the landscape for six years, and I'm absolutely sick of the disconnect between rhetoric and action on the personal, local, state and national level. If they continue to hold absolute power for another four years, then we the American people deserve whatever ills befall us.[/LIST]

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You just don't get it do you ? Its about personal accountability and how the liberals are to blame for all our problems.

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

They want to be blue collar americans, they were born into a place worse than america, its only natural for them to migrate, i would if i was them, they have to cut corners because America wont let them in if not

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No they dont want to be blue collar americans. If they did they would assimalte and get into the country legally.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

No they dont want to be blue collar americans. If they did they would assimalte and get into the country legally.

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I suspect its extremely difficult for them to get in legally, in most cases not even possible....

It must be very hard to assimilate when people have that kind of attaitude towards them, although i do see what you mean, the problem is it must be very hard to adapt to a different way of life, when you have grown up in comparative poverty etc. when there is such a large amount of illegals with you, it is only natural to split off, over time, this could even change (you would get second/third generation illegals, who are pretty much american themselves)

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Lastly, I'm sorry I brought conservative politics into this, but it really cheesed me off. And in my experience it's altogether typical. Am I generalizing from particulars to the general? Yes I am. Is it unfair? Probably. Is it unwarranted? Not entirely. "Conservative" Republicans have been dominating the landscape for six years, and I'm absolutely sick of the disconnect between rhetoric and action on the personal, local, state and national level. If they continue to hold absolute power for another four years, then we the American people deserve whatever ills befall us.

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1. They do not hold absolute power. Our system, despite its flaws, has enough gridlock built in to limit abuses of power.

2. The Bush team has been governing now for 6 years. They have ignored the border and immigration just as thoroughly (if not a bit more) than the previous 3 presidencies. That they have done so despite the threat multiplication created by an uncontrolled border during a war on terror is quite galling. There is no other issue that they have botched as thoroughly.

3. This contractor does seem to be hypocritical -- I hope you do call him on the carpet for it.

4. The GOP has proven itself just as susceptible to the corruption of power as has any other majority party. It's not pretty to watch, as I'd hoped they prove a notch better.

5. The GOP's hold on power will get hammered the very first time the Dems stop letting the whacko "We ourselves are the enemy" leftist fringe run their party. A few stauch in defense democrats could really topple the GOP applecart.

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

I suspect its extremely difficult for them to get in legally, in most cases not even possible....

It must be very hard to assimilate when people have that kind of attaitude towards them, although i do see what you mean, the problem is it must be very hard to adapt to a different way of life, when you have grown up in comparative poverty etc. when there is such a large amount of illegals with you, it is only natural to split off, over time, this could even change (you would get second/third generation illegals, who are pretty much american themselves)

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I suspect it's extremely difficult for anyone to become rich legally, in most cases not even possible....
So bankrobbers and kidnappers have my complete sympathy as do drug dealers and the likes...
If something is too difficult, let's just screw over the law.

If those people would use their willpower and energy to change their own country instead of trying to get into the USA, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to emigrate anymore in some years.
I might be wrong there but in any way the desire of some people does not justify illegal actions.

And on a sidenote, if someone wants a clean neighborhood, be he illegal or not, he might want to start by stopping to throw dirt onto the streets, it's usually not the government that paves the sideways with chewing gums...

Oh, and someone born in the US is officially a US citizen so there cannot be a second generation illegal...

@ Lemur I would send the story on to Rush, and report the company to the authorities.
I hope you didn’t pay him 100% upfront as I would keep the rest for his breech in the contract and illegal business practices. I would also consider changing my locks. Good luck. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Scurvy
I suspect it’s extremely difficult for them to get in legally, in most cases not even possible....

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They shouldn’t come in illegally, its against the law! ~:mad

I wouldn't even be worried about if you're 'certain' or not. If you follow Redleg's instructions and you're wrong, they'll see that these guys have work permits and taxpayer ids fairly quickly.

You should be cheesed, and this is eggregious, especially considering that you had made explicit statements to the contractor that you were paying him a premium for the use of documented workers only (which, frankly, you shouldn't be doing anyways, you shouldn't have to reward people for obeying the law).

Above and beyond anything else, this is why "Americans just don't do those jobs". If you pay an American 10.00/hour, he sees maybe $8.00 of it. If you pay an undocumented worker $9.00, he sees all $9.00, so he's not really working for less, though it looks that way to the contractor (who by the way is skipping out on his portions of FICA, SS, etc).

I don't believe this BS that Americans are lazy and overpaid and you can't pay them to do certain jobs. It's an unfair comparison. If you paid all the associated costs with every laborer, they wouldn't be so attractive anymore. And as for the 'at any price' part goes, that's a crock. They have no idea, because they're not allowing wages to rise and then they'd see if people took those jobs. As DA's thread a few months back went, if you paid me $75K a year to dig ditches all day with no other responsibilities, I'm certain you'd get a much larger labor pool competing for that job. I'm not saying they should get $75K/year, I'm saying the marketplace should set the rate for that labor, not what the employer arbitrarily decides is fair and won't pay more...

These contractors (or any other entrepreneurs) are really arguing for the right to artificially hold demand low and supply high. These "honest businessmen that just can't find the right help" are in fact arguing for price fixing, in this case, fixing on labor prices. As an extreme fiscal conservative, this burns me to the core, and frankly, I'd argue that they should have all their business licenses pulled, be it Walmart meatpacking facilities or lawncare dudes. The issue is the same.

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Originally Posted by BigTex

(I'm sure there's some extremist moderates somewere, compromise, by the sword if neccesary.)

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I think I've become just such a creature. Listening to any extremist of any sort now gets my hackles up. Demagogues get raised hackles and bared claws. Extremist demagogues in positions of power get hackles, claws and formal declarations of hostilities.

God help me, I've become a militant moderate.

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

The fact is this. The USofA lets millions of people legally immagrate. Its not like we shut them out. I dont millions of uneduacted povetry stricken people on my front lawn. Californias economy is already going into a tailspin becuase of this. I will be damned if TEXAS is to follow suit. Companies and illegals should be punished to the full extent. If you are a company hiring illegals we will shut you down FOREVER. Im sick of these people trying to cut corners and screwing good blue collar Americans over. That is the real tragedy of this everyone cares about the illegals but normal people get the shaft everyone wants to know whats going to happen with the poor little illegal its Incompatible language all of it. This country needs to wake up.

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Oh, whatever. No one owes the US working class anything. Let them cut corners so long as they cover their tracks.

Good for you that you would demand legal labor. HOWEVER, you are also in violation of your own principles because you did not terminate the contract once you realized that illegal labor was being used. We must not go half-way. Sure, it will be an inconvienence to fire this contractor and hire a new one. However, the cost and burden you will bear is less than the burden of compromising your integrity.

Fire them all immediately. And then consider taking the contractor to small claims court for breech of contract. Hopefully you got your "no illegals" in writing. No matter, a verbal agreement should hold up under the circumstances. Just make sure that you demand proof of the worker's legal right to work before you use the courts. Good insurance policy for you. Ask him to sign something stating that he has checked all of the papers of his workers and that he will provide copies upon request. You have a lot of options but your first priority is your integrity in this situiation. You should cease the contract until he can provide you proof of legality.

I am facing the same problem finding a landscaper.

Lemur, just because this particular contractor is a big fan of Limbaugh doesn't mean he agrees with everything single thing Rush says or for that matter, tows the line regarding every single idea or core issue the Republican party supposedly stands for. Perhaps this contractor is pro-Republican on every issue except for illegal immigration; clearly the issue is only increasing his profit margins. Who knows, if push came to shove maybe this particular contractor would vote against any Republican candidate who would threaten to address illegal migrant workers in your state?

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I have nothing against the people who come here to work. My problems are with (a) fairness, and (b) contribution. Let me break that down:
Fairness: One of my best friends emigrated here from Serbia. He had to go through a mountain of paperwork, and jump through multiple hoops for the I.N.S. to prove he was going to be a valuable member of the U.S.A. Likewise, there are people from all over the Earth who would like to work here. I don't understand why Central and South Americans should be priviledged to come here in much larger numbers just because of physical proximity. It doesn't seem fair.
Contribution: If one of these gentlemen outside my house has an accident, he will be taken care of by the medical system. His children will be educated by the public schools. It's entirely unfair for him not to be contributing full taxes. Moreover, it's unfair for his employer to take advantage of the lower wages, while shuffling the tax burden off onto everyone else in the community. He's taking advantage of lax enforcement to shove a whole bunch his rightful costs onto the town/county/state/country at large. It's unethical.

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I agree completely.

Living in NYC I can safely say the illegal migrant worker problem is completely out of control, so much so that countless businesses have come to depend on the availability of these workers. I don't think there's a single family run store, restaurant or contractor out there that doesn't employ illegal workers. I honestly wonder what would happen to the local economy if drastic measures to curtail illegal migrant workers were implemented immediately and enforced to the fullest extent of the law?

Oddly enough the West's reliance on illegal migrant workers reminds me of the same problems confronting the Roman Republic/Empire with respect to its heavy reliance on the use of slaves. Much like Rome's use of slaves the modern use of illegal migrant workers is simply too lucrative to overlook and as with Rome, it is the West's middle and lower class citizenry which is paying the price (literally and figuratively). Not that I have any moral issues with the exploitation of illegal migrants (after all, one good exploitation deserves another) but aside from a cessation to the flagrant violation of our laws I had hoped the 21st century would see a drastic increase in the invention and implementation of automation in the West so as to curtail this huge demand for cheap labor.

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Originally Posted by Spino

Lemur, just because this particular contractor is a big fan of Limbaugh doesn't mean he agrees with everything single thing Rush says or for that matter, tows the line regarding every single idea or core issue the Republican party supposedly stands for. Perhaps this contractor is pro-Republican on every issue except for illegal immigration; clearly the issue is only increasing his profit margins. Who knows, if push came to shove maybe this particular contractor would vote against any Republican candidate who would threaten to address illegal migrant workers in your state?

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There are many Republicans who aren't serious about illegal immigration- and I'd argue there are even more Democrats who aren't. Many libertarian types seem to advocate a completely open border. :dizzy2:

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Oddly enough the West's reliance on illegal migrant workers reminds me of the same problems confronting the Roman Republic/Empire with respect to its heavy reliance on the use of slaves. Much like Rome's use of slaves the modern use of illegal migrant workers is simply too lucrative to overlook and as with Rome, it is the West's middle and lower class citizenry which is paying the price (literally and figuratively). Not that I have any moral issues with the exploitation of illegal migrants (after all, one good exploitation deserves another) but aside from a cessation to the flagrant violation of our laws I had hoped the 21st century would see a drastic increase in the invention and implementation of automation in the West so as to curtail this huge demand for cheap labor.

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Cheap labor retards invention/automation... this was the case in Roman times as well. If you have cheap and plentiful labor, why bother trying to automate the tasks that they perform?

Damm you, Geddy Lee, Alex Lifeson and Neal Pert for your extremism.