U.S. Senate Does Something Right!!!! I can hardly believe it!!!

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Congress passes Mexico border fence bill
WASHINGTON, Sept. 30 (UPI) -- Congress has ordered construction of 700 miles of fence along the U.S.-Mexican border in a move Mexico says will hurt relations between the two countries.

The Senate voted 80-19, with 26 Democrats joining 54 Republicans in support, Friday night before recessing for the fall political campaigns.

President Bush has said he would sign it.

Critics claim the $1.2 billion fence would do little to address the underlying economic, social and law enforcement problems, or to prevent others from slipping across the border, The Washington Post reported.

A United Press International analysis said the fence's success would be determined by improved economic growth in Mexico and crackdowns on U.S. employment of illegal immigrants.

Mexico's Foreign Relations Department called the fence "a political answer rather than a viable solution."

Mexican President Vicente Fox called it "shameful" and compared it to the Berlin Wall, which divided Germany.

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http://upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?St...0-094856-7817r

This is a terrific start. Hopefully this will generate some momentum. U.S. Citizens of the Org: If you support this bill, PLEASE contact your Congressional and Senate Leaders and commend them or chastize them for their role in this first great step...


HR6061

Bill Information: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR6061:

Senate Votes: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LI...n=2&vote=00260

House Votes: http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2006/roll446.xml

All behind it DA! I'll get right on it as soon as I am done with my Sunday School Lesson. At last, some action by the do nothing boys and girls in Washington DC.
Praise be!

Congratulations,

This seems so silly... Can't believe we're actually doing this crap. We jumped bigger fences in highschool with razor wire to avoid paying 2$ or whatever for a ticket.

The only answer to our immigration problem is back breaking fines for the employers who allow this to go on. Until we get something like that, all this fence stuff is a joke, imo.

This is a start proletariat. A start. I agree that reducing incentives for illegal immigration is the mainstay of a real immigration solution, but this is a good beginning. We must press our legislative leaders and tell them that we support their action. This was a water test only.

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

The only answer to our immigration problem is back breaking fines for the employers who allow this to go on. Until we get something like that, all this fence stuff is a joke, imo.

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Amen, and can I get a hallelujah?

All of our attempts to cut of supply are meaningless until we're willing to do something serious about demand. End of story.

Wait a minute. I was expecting something akin to the great wall of china, with a deep foundation that can't be dug under. Please don't tell me this is going to be like the fence at a priosn. Thats nothing.

It also needs electricity running through it. And the best yet, would be to use illegal immigrants to build it, then tell them we lost their paychecks right before we deport them. That would be payback for all the taxes they never paid.

That is not doing something right, that is just a waste of taxpayers' money.

How hard is it to round up illegal aliens and deport them? Not very.

If they really wanted to stop the illegal alien problem then they could deport them all rather than waste $1.2 billion of taxpayers' money.

Here is my blanket letter to relevant congressional leaders:

Dear *elected official*,

I commend you for your recent action voting in favor of HR 6061. Illegal immigration is a national disgrace: we exploit the impoverished citizens of a neighboring country while turning away the millions more who seek our aid from abroad. The United States must have an immigration policy that is fair to the people of the entire world. After all, America is known for welcoming immigrants and this can only be continued by offering equal opportunity to the citizens of all nations.

Please support legislation that reduces incentives for unlawful entry, residence, and employment. Meanwhile, expand opportunities for immigration and citizenshipo from ALL nations- and not just Mexico. Only then can we have the multicultural melting pot that has made the United States the leader of the free world.

Very Respectfully,

*author*


Feel free to use, modify, etc as you see fit if you plan on aiding this email campaign.

Way to avoid the issue with a $1.2 billion cosmetic "fix". Lipstick on a pig.

This is really funny, they're trying to build a fence to stop people getting in? It'l be like a 50m hurdle race :2thumbsup:

btw, they're not aliens :wall:

Commend? My arse. That damn wall is a waste of tax money that my family contributes (yes, we legal immigrants do pay taxes, and quite a lot to speak of) while it could be used to do actual stuff to solve problems.

The idea that a physical wall will work against humans is totally ridiculous. Have these Congressmen forgot how the oh-so-magnificent Great Wall of China was a total waste?

Apparently they missed the part about the law of supply and demand. As long as employers continue to hire desperate illegal workers for dirt-cheap slave-labor wages that also happen to be higher than in Mexico, there will be lives willing to risk.

MRD: I don't know how serious you are, but blaming this squarely on the immigrants is, really, not very wise.

Edit: But of course, upon rethinking, I realize how common it is in America to put the bandage on a sword wound and call it a day. Or blame other people. How did I even let this surprise me?

This isn't going to do jack ****. It's going to waste Tax Payers money. Our problem with illegals is that theres a large incentive to work here, we need to be cracking down on businesses that are hiring illegals, not building a fence that in all reality isn't going to curb the problem.

A first step, I agree.

An un-patrolled fence is almost useless. Properly supported it will add to national security. It will be far more effective on that level than it will on curtailing illegal immigration.

Illegal immigration must be attacked on two levels:

1. Minimize the incentive for people to head to El Norte for labor (enforcing our existing labor laws would be nice, harsher fines for scammers even better).

2. Work with Mexico to have them alter their social safety net so as to stop making "Go work in El Norte" a primary component. A Mexican government that at least was neutral -- as opposed to actively encouraging -- illegal workers to head to the US would be helpful.


#1 will be difficult because of resistance from the business community. Cheaper labor cuts costs and allows you to compete more effectively -- this is a basic issue for business and they will not want to make the adjustment.

#2 will be difficult because most governments located South of the Rio Grande and North of Magellan's Pass would more happily tell the USA to go piss up a rope than coordinate to solve the problem (and not entirely without justification. Our policies over the years in Latin America haven't always been consistent or friendly).

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Amen, and can I get a hallelujah?

All of our attempts to cut of supply are meaningless until we're willing to do something serious about demand. End of story.

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True- but not the end of the story. Border security is also an important factor. Even without the strong pull from employers of illegals you'd still see criminal gangs, drug runners, ect coming across the border to do business. God forbid that we'd see terrorists coming into the US across an unprotected border...

This bill looks to do more than simply build a fence, it also calls for increased border security via technology and manpower. As DA said, it is a good start, but it's still not addressing the criminals within the US who employ illegals.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

(yes, we legal immigrants do pay taxes, and quite a lot to speak of)

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WE WANT LEGAL IMMIGRATION.

We are not xenophobes. I swear to God you people don't even read posts before you reply.

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

WE WANT LEGAL IMMIGRATION. capitalization removed

We are not xenophobes. I swear to God you people don't even read posts before you reply.

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Eh, I'm not asserting differently. May be you're just misinterpreting my post instead?

If you want LEGAL migration, hows about sorting the system so no one wants to be an illegal? What an idea!

Oh, but then you can't get kick backs from the companies that get money to make this massive fence, and then repair it when it comes under repeated attack by peoples trying to cross it.

You can't just steal money from the Treasury, so just ask for mates to make something useless and you achieve the same thing.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

#1 will be difficult because of resistance from the business community. Cheaper labor cuts costs and allows you to compete more effectively -- this is a basic issue for business and they will not want to make the adjustment.

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But storey if they cant compete so well they run the risk of going out of business or at least more foreran maid goods will be imported into the US and so more of your hard earned cash levees the US.

by the way from my point of view as an Englishman i find it quite amusing that the US which lets face it is built on emigration is no so paranoid about people coming to the US

Oh goody, I was hoping someone would follow Israels magnificent way of handling things.

Why not put the money into removing the 'il' from people trying to migrate? Set up centres to teach whatever it is you chaps want your immigrants to know. Just because someone is born in a particular place doesn't make them any more or less of a person than someone born somewhere else.

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Originally Posted by Somebody Else

Just because someone is born in a particular place doesn't make them any more or less of a person than someone born somewhere else.

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Alright, where did you get the idea anyone thinks that? I've lived in quite a few different countries, this one is easily the most welcoming of them all, to anyone.

If a country were truly welcoming, it would throw open it's borders completely.

Calling someone an 'illegal immigrant' is a legal term, yes. Legality is a question of judgement - hence 'judiciary' &c. Therefore calling someone an 'illegal immigrant' is judging them to be different to a 'legal migrant' or 'citizen' - the disparaging tone and/or context that usually goes along with it is enough to make the phrase derogatory in itself.

As for the US being the most welcoming - that may be so. It's not as if there's much competition on that front...

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Originally Posted by Somebody Else

If a country were truly welcoming, it would throw open it's borders completely.

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And yet no country has ever done this, with the exception of failed states (i.e., nations where central governance has collapsed). Does this mean that no country is "truly welcoming"?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

And yet no country has ever done this, with the exception of failed states (i.e., nations where central governance has collapsed). Does this mean that no country is "truly welcoming"?

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I'm a big fan of globalisation me... and the abolition of nation states. Why accentuate our differences with different passports &c. when we could just, well, get along?

While I don't think your view is practical, Somebody Else, I'm glad you're on the board expressing it. A true globalizaion fan! Most excellent! It's about time we had someone advocating the abolition of the nation state. In fact, I think you should start a thread where you expound on these views. Should be fun for everyone involved.

P.S.: I'm still holding out for a flat earther to "round" things out.

My uncle is a fan of all in one massive "country". The fact that all over the globe countries are splintering into smaller units as people want their individual areas separate.

Whilst ideally possibly a good idea, it has about as much realistic chance of success as Communism.

~:smoking:

I really get tired of this "lets make it where they won't want to migrate" attitude. We gonna fix all of south america now? Mexico can fix itself, sending them loads of money won't do a damn thing to change that country

it should have electrictiy

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Originally Posted by Strike For The South

it should have electrictiy

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Ok... so when the first piece of metal is used to short out the wire, then what? Oh, and chances are that lots of people will have this idea.

Or place something like paint / rubber / a thick sheet over the wire? It won't work.

What would? Set it 100m inside US territory, have landmines, ploughed land, guardposts with machinegun nests set atop a slight slope with range markers every 10 metres to aid zeroing in.

Oh, and be prepared to kill lots of people who'se only real sin is wanting to work. (Oh, they're probably all terrorists, so it's alright...)

Barbed wire / razor wire / electricity will be circumvented in minutes.

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

I really get tired of this "lets make it where they won't want to migrate" attitude. We gonna fix all of south america now? Mexico can fix itself, sending them loads of money won't do a damn thing to change that country

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well without sending money mexico has no chance of fixing itself - its just that kind of attitude that makes mexicans want to migrate, "america doesnt want to help us fix our country, so lets migrate to their better country"

fixing mexico is in itslef extremely difficult, crime gangs have most authority, and taking a country from relative poverty, to being more attractive as a living place than the USA is close to impossible, the only way that might work is letting in so many immagrants, that all hte emxicans would rather stay at home :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Lemur

I'm still holding out for a flat earther to "round" things out.

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Not comparing me to one of them now, are we?

As for the practicalities - no more so than anything else - the hardest part isn't removing the physical barriers... just the ones in the mind.

No, I am most certainly not comparing you to a flat earther. They're sort of my benchmark for getting multiple perspectives into the Backroom, and they have been for some time.

We have, by my count:

• Euro-Socialists
• Euro-Fascists (well, one)
• Euro-Centrics
• American Theoconservatives
• American Neoconservatives
• American Paleoconservatives
• Assorted Libertarians
• British Labourites (Pro-Blair)
• British Labourites (Anti-Blair)
• British Conservatives
• British Liberals
• Various Nationalists
• Theocrats (well, one)
• Royalists (well, one)
• Assorted Creationists
• Assorted Moderates

and now ...

• Anti-Nationalist One-Worlders (well, one)

Personally, I like the variety, even if I disagree with most. However, we've never had a true-blue flat earther in here. Until we can attract an Orgah who truly, deeply believes that the world is flat, I will not be content.

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Personally, I like the variety, even if I disagree with most. However, we've never had a true-blue flat earther in here. Until we can attract an Orgah who truly, deeply believes that the world is flat, I will not be content.

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we should advertise, which kind of magazine is a flat-earther likely to read?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

and now ...

• Anti-Nationalist One-Worlders (well, one)

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So... what does my wanting to join the army throw into this? Though, if there were a global kind of army to join...

I consider myself a Reagan Conservative. Where does that place me on your scale on noble member of the rodent family.:2thumbsup:

....Hmmm. Just occurs to me that Lemurs may not be rodents. I'm thinking ferret, but that's not on track.....just being playful anyway.

Depending on what kind of Reagan conservative you are, you'd probably be somewhere between American Peloconservative and Assorted Libertarian.

Leumrs are prosimians, you silly Gaelic person.

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

well without sending money mexico has no chance of fixing itself - its just that kind of attitude that makes mexicans want to migrate, "america doesnt want to help us fix our country, so lets migrate to their better country"

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Even as grossly mismanaged as it is, the Mexican economy generates almost $700 billion/yr and has substantial oil wealth. The problem is a corrupt, inefficient Mexican government that knows it's far cheaper and easier to send its malcontents to the US rather than bothering to fix its domestic problems.

Throwing money at the Mexican government won't solve their problems.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Throwing money at the Mexican government won't solve their problems.

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In that case using money to try to fix the mexican government will,

There should be a one-world liberal added into there. A world w/o nations is unlikely to happen anytime soon, but that doesn't mean we cannot say what would be best.

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Even as grossly mismanaged as it is, the Mexican economy generates almost $700 billion/yr and has substantial oil wealth. The problem is a corrupt, inefficient Mexican government that knows it's far cheaper and easier to send its malcontents to the US rather than bothering to fix its domestic problems.

Throwing money at the Mexican government won't solve their problems.

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What about the classical libertarian solution- having US companies invest in Mexico?

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Leumrs are prosimians, you silly Gaelic person.

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Aha! I have caught you out in a flagrant redundancy! :inquisitive: Errm, oh, well, never mind.

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

What about the classical libertarian solution- having US companies invest in Mexico?

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Sure, that's a great idea. But, iirc the Mexican government limits foreign investment.

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In that case using money to try to fix the mexican government will,

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No it won't- reform in Mexico will have to come from within. However, it's unlikely to happen as long as illegal immigration is the release valve for Mexico's domestic problems.

To fix the illegal immigrant problem effectively the goverment has to use some matter of force sooner or later.

My idea you ask? Kick them all out and build a huge ditch 100 yards wide and 50 deep, fill with water and build a few fences and watch towers here and there. Razor wire would be nice. Just a idea.

What a waste of 1.2 billion dollars.

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Originally Posted by holybandit

My idea you ask? Kick them all out and build a huge ditch 100 yards wide and 50 deep, fill with water and build a few fences and watch towers here and there. Razor wire would be nice. Just a idea.

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Yeah, because Mexicans are too stupid to use boats.

:dizzy2:

They will continue to come in this country until demand is quelled, like Lemur said. Nothing less than making it cost-inefficient to hire illegals will fix this. They are the real criminals here, not the immigrants.

The answer to this problem is so cut and dry, and easy to implement, yet it will never happen in a hundred years, it's bewildering.

Implementing heavy fines for the business engaging this costs jack. These idiotic wall/ditch ideas cost tons and will do nothing to fix the problem. I don't see this as a start for anything, it's a shallow joke and a huge waste of time.

:wall:

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

Implementing heavy fines for the business engaging this costs jack. These idiotic wall/ditch ideas cost tons and will do nothing to fix the problem. I don't see this as a start for anything, it's a shallow joke and a huge waste of time.

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Actually Prole' it would take a lot more in the way of enforcement dollars -- though I agree with you that it would be well spent money. I hope you're wrong about your last sentence....but fear you are right.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Actually Prole' it would take a lot more in the way of enforcement dollars -- though I agree with you that it would be well spent money.

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You're right, I wrote that quickly. The point remains... :bow:



Where's Adrian, btw? If you still lurk here at all, I'd like you to explain your view that America has a much higher unemployment rate than the gov't admits during this period of our borders being zerged en masse by people seeking employment.

Forgot to add, and quite very late, but I suspect this crappy money-wasting god-forsaken bill is going to be touted by every Senator who vote for it as "I've done something about illegal immigration!"

And no more effort--no real effort--will be spent on the actual problem solving. After all, they've "done something!" What else do you want of them?

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Originally Posted by Proletariat

This seems so silly... Can't believe we're actually doing this crap. We jumped bigger fences in highschool with razor wire to avoid paying 2$ or whatever for a ticket.

The only answer to our immigration problem is back breaking fines for the employers who allow this to go on. Until we get something like that, all this fence stuff is a joke, imo.

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Quite so Proletariat. Start by hitting those who provide the opportunities, not those who naturally take advantage. Go after the dealers, not the addicts as it were. A fence is just a typical politicians answer to the problem: they must be seen to be doing something, preferably something costly and above all easy, even if it achieves nothing at all!

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

A fence is just a typical politicians answer to the problem: they must be seen to be doing something, preferably something costly and above all easy, even if it achieves nothing at all!

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I have some sympathy with them, there is so much pressure to be seen to do something, a fence is extremely symbolic, at the same time as being realtively easy to put up etc. the public pressure the government to do things quickly, im sure the politician would prefer to sort the problem out in the long term (contrary to popular belief - politicians are'nt stupid) however due to him needing to win votes (which is all PR) they are forced into silly and sometimes expensive methods of achieving nothing.

If they wanted symbolism they could have put up a sign saying "Mexicans stay out" for a couple of dollars. This is a cop out, and yes it is partly the fault of the democratic system.

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

I have some sympathy with them, there is so much pressure to be seen to do something, a fence is extremely symbolic, at the same time as being realtively easy to put up etc. the public pressure the government to do things quickly, im sure the politician would prefer to sort the problem out in the long term (contrary to popular belief - politicians are'nt stupid) however due to him needing to win votes (which is all PR) they are forced into silly and sometimes expensive methods of achieving nothing.

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The Berlin wall was also symbolic. In a bad way.

If Politicians wheren't stupid then they'd realise that if they kept on doing reactionary things [like building fences] for votes instead of tackling the issue properly, however unpopular that may be, they'd leave the country in a worse state than when they found it, and with less money to boot.

What next? A "Shoot on sight" policy to help protect the fence?
And what about the sea routes? are they not also viable?

Why do I want to go through the fence? Why shouldn't I get myself a boat and go around it?
We in Europe have a fence (Tangiers or whatever it's called in Spanish Africa) that doesn't work, people just come by boat now.
If things are going well in one country and bad in the other it's normal human thinking to move to that country. You can't stop that, whatever you do ... even Yanks can't *cough* :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by ezrider

If Politicians wheren't stupid then they'd realise that if they kept on doing reactionary things [like building fences] for votes instead of tackling the issue properly, however unpopular that may be, they'd leave the country in a worse state than when they found it, and with less money to boot.

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But politicians dont care about how the country is after they've finished, they know that putting a fence up will get them votes, while solving the issue long-term won't, therefore they build a fence, and advertise it at every opportunity :2thumbsup:

- also most politicians are quite intelligent --> just very selfish and impractical....

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Originally Posted by Somebody Else

Why not put the money into removing the 'il' from people trying to migrate? Set up centres to teach whatever it is you chaps want your immigrants to know. Just because someone is born in a particular place doesn't make them any more or less of a person than someone born somewhere else.

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:bow:

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

Actually Prole' it would take a lot more in the way of enforcement dollars -- though I agree with you that it would be well spent money. I hope you're wrong about your last sentence....but fear you are right.

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It depends on how heavy your fines are.

If the government would start a 'war on illegal immigration' in a similar way as the war on drugs and use use similar measures they could make a ton of money. An illegal immigrant worked in this store ? We're sorry sir, we'll have to put this store on trial. What do you say, get a lawyer ? Sir, property can't hire lawyers, don't be silly !

Combine it with fines and you'd get all the money in the WalMart imperium pretty quickly :2thumbsup:

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscart...s/efin267l.jpg

Article in the Washington Post about the current shortage of migrant workers on farms. Apparently INS enforcement and better jobs in construction and other services are leaving the farms understaffed. Looks like the cost of fruit is going to go up, and a lot is rotting in the fields.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...100301254.html

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Originally Posted by Lemur

We have, by my count:

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I believe we have recently had someone in favor of the “Monarchy” also.

Farmers shouldnt rely on illegal immigrants.

I was always under the impression that illegal immigration was allowed to continue because so many wealthy American lawmakers happen to have interests which make lots of money out of really cheap, union-less, labour in the south...

But of course it's always possible they are inactive/ineffective for some completely innocent reason.

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Originally Posted by BDC

I was always under the impression that illegal immigration was allowed to continue because so many wealthy American lawmakers happen to have interests which make lots of money out of really cheap, union-less, labour in the south...

But of course it's always possible they are inactive/ineffective for some completely innocent reason.

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Both are correct.

I think the squeals of protest from the Mexican government over this proposal is proof enough that it's a good bill and a step in the right direction. The problem isn't going to be solved without clamping down on demand for illegal workers, but I must disagree again with those who say this is an empty gesture.

So what are the odds that a sub-contractor working on the US-Mexico wall is going to use illegal Mexican labour?

100:1, 10:1, 5:2?

Ha!

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

So what are the odds that a sub-contractor working on the US-Mexico wall is going to use illegal Mexican labour?

100:1, 10:1, 5:2?

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here its about 1.1:1

Am I the only one who sees there is no point to this?

There are at least four point to this:

Pork, Kick, Barrel, Backs.

Well folks, we better scrap the border security bill, because:
U.S. border fence plan upsets Mexicans!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

TIJUANA, Mexico - Mexico lobbied for six years for a comprehensive immigration reform that would allow millions to cross into the United States legally. Instead, they're getting a fence.
ADVERTISEMENT

Mexicans — from leading politicians to migrants preparing to cross illegally — consider the U.S. plan to fence off much of the border shameful, offensive and ill-conceived.

President Bush on Wednesday signed a bill that would allot $1.2 billion for hundreds of miles of fencing along the U.S.-Mexican border and for more vehicle barriers, lighting and infrared cameras.

But migrants resting at a Tijuana shelter after being deported from the United States said more walls wouldn't deter them. Alfonso Martinez, a 32-year-old from southern Mexico, had been working as a farmhand for six months in Vista, Calif., when he was arrested and deported last week.

"Wall or no wall, I will try at least three times," said Martinez, who said he would try to cross by himself through Tecate, a mountainous town about 35 miles east of Tijuana. "I have three girls that I have to support, and in Mexico there is no work."

Mexican immigrants in the United States and the Mexican government had lobbied lawmakers for more ways to cross the border and work legally.

While Bush had proposed a temporary worker program, it didn't garner enough support in Congress for passage. The idea has been dropped by Washington, at least until after the November congressional elections.

Congress focused on security over immigration, arguing that the porous border could be used by terrorists who want to sneak into the U.S. undetected. There is no evidence that has happened, however.

The Mexican government this week sent a diplomatic note to Washington criticizing the plan for 700 miles of new fencing along the border. Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez called it an "offense" and said Wednesday his office was considering taking the issue to the
United Nations.

But Ruben Aguilar, the spokesman for President
Vicente Fox, said Thursday that Mexico had ruled out that possibility. He added he was "confident" the additional fencing would never become a reality because an immigration accord would eventually replace it.

President-elect Felipe Calderon Thursday criticized the U.S. plan, but said the case is a bilateral issue that should not be taken to any international organization.

"I think it is a deplorable decision that has been made by the United States Congress for the construction of this wall, and it does not solve our common problem, which is emigration," Calderon told a news conference in Santiago, Chile.

Guillermo Alonzo, a migration expert at the Tijuana-based Colegio de La Frontera Norte, said fences instead will force migrants to look for new ways to sneak into the United States and find new routes through deadlier terrain.

"When migrants are determined to cross, they find a way to jump the fences," Alonzo said. "Walls don't stop anything."

Alonzo cited the construction of a fence between Tijuana and San Diego, known in Mexico as "the tortilla wall." It was completed in the 1990s and forced migrants into the sparsely populated and dangerous Arizona desert.

While there are walls at various points along the border, the one in Tijuana is the longest stretch, running 14 miles west from the Otay border crossing and plunging into the Pacific Ocean.

It has become a symbol of the divisive immigration issue, a blank slate for graffiti, crosses, photos and other remembrances of those who have lost their lives trying to sneak into the United States. Some families, divided by the border, even meet at the fence, talking through the metal wires.

While the wall downgraded Tijuana from the illegal migration mecca it was in the 1990s, hundreds of migrants still come here, Alonzo said.

"Now smugglers hide migrants in trunks of cars or get false documents," he said.

Luis Kendzierski, a priest who directs a Tijuana migrant shelter, said building a wall is an unfriendly gesture that will lead to a hike in smugglers' fees and more migrant deaths.

Between 2001 and 2006, almost 2,000 migrants died while trying to sneak into the United States, according to El Colegio de la Frontera Norte.

"We are supposed to be neighbors and friends, and instead of building bridges and doors, we're building obstacles," Kendzierski said.

Better watch out- the Mexican government says it may take the issue to the United Nations! ~:eek:

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Originally Posted by Xiahou

Well folks, we better scrap the border security bill, because:
U.S. border fence plan upsets Mexicans!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

TIJUANA, Mexico - Mexico lobbied for six years for a comprehensive immigration reform that would allow millions to cross into the United States legally. Instead, they're getting a fence.
ADVERTISEMENT

Mexicans — from leading politicians to migrants preparing to cross illegally — consider the U.S. plan to fence off much of the border shameful, offensive and ill-conceived.

President Bush on Wednesday signed a bill that would allot $1.2 billion for hundreds of miles of fencing along the U.S.-Mexican border and for more vehicle barriers, lighting and infrared cameras.

But migrants resting at a Tijuana shelter after being deported from the United States said more walls wouldn't deter them. Alfonso Martinez, a 32-year-old from southern Mexico, had been working as a farmhand for six months in Vista, Calif., when he was arrested and deported last week.

"Wall or no wall, I will try at least three times," said Martinez, who said he would try to cross by himself through Tecate, a mountainous town about 35 miles east of Tijuana. "I have three girls that I have to support, and in Mexico there is no work."

Mexican immigrants in the United States and the Mexican government had lobbied lawmakers for more ways to cross the border and work legally.

While Bush had proposed a temporary worker program, it didn't garner enough support in Congress for passage. The idea has been dropped by Washington, at least until after the November congressional elections.

Congress focused on security over immigration, arguing that the porous border could be used by terrorists who want to sneak into the U.S. undetected. There is no evidence that has happened, however.

The Mexican government this week sent a diplomatic note to Washington criticizing the plan for 700 miles of new fencing along the border. Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez called it an "offense" and said Wednesday his office was considering taking the issue to the
United Nations.

But Ruben Aguilar, the spokesman for President
Vicente Fox, said Thursday that Mexico had ruled out that possibility. He added he was "confident" the additional fencing would never become a reality because an immigration accord would eventually replace it.

President-elect Felipe Calderon Thursday criticized the U.S. plan, but said the case is a bilateral issue that should not be taken to any international organization.

"I think it is a deplorable decision that has been made by the United States Congress for the construction of this wall, and it does not solve our common problem, which is emigration," Calderon told a news conference in Santiago, Chile.

Guillermo Alonzo, a migration expert at the Tijuana-based Colegio de La Frontera Norte, said fences instead will force migrants to look for new ways to sneak into the United States and find new routes through deadlier terrain.

"When migrants are determined to cross, they find a way to jump the fences," Alonzo said. "Walls don't stop anything."

Alonzo cited the construction of a fence between Tijuana and San Diego, known in Mexico as "the tortilla wall." It was completed in the 1990s and forced migrants into the sparsely populated and dangerous Arizona desert.

While there are walls at various points along the border, the one in Tijuana is the longest stretch, running 14 miles west from the Otay border crossing and plunging into the Pacific Ocean.

It has become a symbol of the divisive immigration issue, a blank slate for graffiti, crosses, photos and other remembrances of those who have lost their lives trying to sneak into the United States. Some families, divided by the border, even meet at the fence, talking through the metal wires.

While the wall downgraded Tijuana from the illegal migration mecca it was in the 1990s, hundreds of migrants still come here, Alonzo said.

"Now smugglers hide migrants in trunks of cars or get false documents," he said.

Luis Kendzierski, a priest who directs a Tijuana migrant shelter, said building a wall is an unfriendly gesture that will lead to a hike in smugglers' fees and more migrant deaths.

Between 2001 and 2006, almost 2,000 migrants died while trying to sneak into the United States, according to El Colegio de la Frontera Norte.

"We are supposed to be neighbors and friends, and instead of building bridges and doors, we're building obstacles," Kendzierski said.

Better watch out- the Mexican government says it may take the issue to the United Nations! ~:eek:

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Interesting article, Xiahou. It has motivated me to point out a few things that I have issue with.

1) Mr. Martinez, while in the US, has taken advantage of the benefits of being here without paying taxes or SS, this bothers me but this is the part that really bothers me, and sends his money back to Mexico (not spending it in the US) to support his 3 daughters. Sending money back is common practice but where does all that money go? Doesn’t all the hundreds of millions each year that goes back to Mexico get used to fuel their economy?

2) The Mexican people and government have had decades to control this issue on their own but rather than try and fix it they have encouraged their own to make it worse and as a result now they will get a fence. If they are going to be mad at anyone they should be mad at themselves for letting the issue become so prominent. A little was an annoyance but a lot is reason for action and if they could have controlled it themselves better they could still be enjoying the benefits like Mr. Martinez’s sent back money. The US gave an inch, Mexico took a mile and now we a big problem.

3) Threatening to take the issue to the UN is only going to make more people notice that Mexico is a crappy place to be, way to encourage tourism, a large part of Mexico’s income.

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Why not put the money into removing the 'il' from people trying to migrate? Set up centres to teach whatever it is you chaps want your immigrants to know. Just because someone is born in a particular place doesn't make them any more or less of a person than someone born somewhere else.

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Hey, I've got a better idea; how about we don't become the welfare office for the world?

Mexico just wants to be able to dump their problems on the US; that's why they want to have unfettered immigration.

Crazed Rabbit

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Hey, I've got a better idea; how about we don't become the welfare office for the world?

Mexico just wants to be able to dump their problems on the US; that's why they want to have unfettered immigration.

Crazed Rabbit

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Try thinking about it without an 'U.s. and them' mentality... (see what I did there - us/U.s. - I'll get my coat). Think of it as, well, an aspect of mankind's wealth of problems.

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Originally Posted by yesdachi

and sends his money back to Mexico (not spending it in the US) to support his 3 daughters. Sending money back is common practice but where does all that money go? Doesn’t all the hundreds of millions each year that goes back to Mexico get used to fuel their economy?

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Obviously the mexican economy doesnt support his family, the problem with the mexican economy is that only a few people have a vast share in it, that means that people like Mr Martinez's family don't see any of the money after they spend it - to that extent money sent back supports the mexican economy. Its more legitimate to be annoyed with the highly corrupt government :furious3:

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2) The Mexican people and government have had decades to control this issue on their own but rather than try and fix it they have encouraged their own to make it worse and as a result now they will get a fence. If they are going to be mad at anyone they should be mad at themselves for letting the issue become so prominent. A little was an annoyance but a lot is reason for action and if they could have controlled it themselves better they could still be enjoying the benefits like Mr. Martinez’s sent back money. The US gave an inch, Mexico took a mile and now we a big problem.

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Again, its its the government, they havnt encouraged migration, but they hav'nt meaningfully tried to improve average living standards within mexico. Its hard to blame the mexican people for taking advantage of lax borders when they see a reliable source of money that their own government dont give them. Its extremely hard to control migration to a nicer country, its just too tempting to miss out on.

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3) Threatening to take the issue to the UN is only going to make more people notice that Mexico is a crappy place to be, way to encourage tourism, a large part of Mexico’s income.

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No, it will encourage people to side with Mexico, the US isnt exactly popular at the moment, and mexico will benefit from being seen as the underdog. Tourism will not be effected by such things, i suspect tourists dont really see the crappy bits anyway... :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Scurvy

Obviously the mexican economy doesnt support his family, the problem with the mexican economy is that only a few people have a vast share in it, that means that people like Mr Martinez's family don't see any of the money after they spend it - to that extent money sent back supports the mexican economy. Its more legitimate to be annoyed with the highly corrupt government :furious3:

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I agree but was more making the point about where the money is going. Its coming in, where is it going? As more people send it back it should increase the amount there, right?

Isn’t there a similar situation with Russia and Georgia right now? People from Georgia work in Russia and send the money back to Georgia to keep their families/country going. That’s why it is a big deal if Russia were to impose heavier restrictions on the money being sent back to Georgia.

Admittedly, I am no expert on Russia/Georgia or even Mexico but it seems easy enough to draw some parallels, no?