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This is a "Project" to try to find a logical explanation for some events described in the Bible. Like the fact that Jesus could walk over water. Maybe he walked over ice? Or the Flood, maybe a tsunami?
If there are any members that would like to participate, please post your ideas here.
I don't think walking on ice could've explained the "water-walk-thing".
If I remember correctly there was a storm at the lake where the walked. His apprientices were sitting in a boat in the very lake and it (the boat) was threathing to turn over. I don't think that an ice layer would be thick or stabile enough to walk on in those conditions.
Also a tsunammi in Mesopotamia seems a bit, odd. Perhaps a extrodinery big flood of Tigris and Euphrate.
Oh yeah i know it wouldnt be ice, but i read something about a tsunami that entered through the Arabic sea into the Gulf of Oman into the valley of the Euphrate and Tigris. They found a big layer of sediment in that vallay around the time the Flood was dated.
But I think it is interesting, maybe people have things to share or we could get to ideas together
The Flood happened in what is nowadays Turkey, some book about all sorts of these things, can't remember the name just now. It has 40 mythes from the ancient world.
Dreamtime, the Flood, Inca (or something) ruins, Polynesians, Jason and the Argonauts, the first Alphabet, language, etc.
The "Flood myth" - as it is called - can be found in cultures around the world, showing it had a common origin.
But are not miracles, perhaps, merely the application of laws we do not yet understand? An aeroplane would be a miracle to people 200 years ago. We can try and think of what we currently know to explain miracles but we should not close off the door to the possibility that man has not yet discovered the laws which were in operation when a miracle occured.
I do not believe in a God who is a magician. I believe He works according to eternal laws, some of which we understand but most of which, imho, we do not.
I don't believe in any god at all, everything written in either bible or koran or whatever can be proven wrong. Some are easy, some more difficult, but we can bust all myths
The end of the last ice age saw a rise in the waterlevels that was downright scary. For isntance the entire North Sea (between Denmark, England/Scotland, Germany/Netherlands and Norway) was one big grassplain. Now it is gone. But people could perhaps have culturally remembered thetime when they could live in places now under water.
That can explain the more general stories, however it happened over a long time, so the Flood as we know it doesn't really fit that well.
However, the Black Sea fits the bill.
Before the Med. broke through the Bospherous, the Black 'Lake' was a mere third of what it is now. And the waterlevels were as much as 100 meters delow sealevels.
I'm sure you have heard of the great Ukranian plains, flat flat flat... stretching forever. Well the land that is now occupied by the Black Sea to the north of the 'lake' was just like that. So it has been estimated that people could have gone to bed with no water in sight (might not even have known of a great lake to the south), then in the morning there would have been water around their feet for as far as they could see.
Such a thing would leave a huge impact on the people that experienced it. What could be doing that? Where would the water come from? Which direction is land?
Who would survive? The few people with boats, naturally, as the footchuggers wouldn't be able to outpace the water.
Bob Ballard actually found a settlement on the sea floor in search of a Byzantine shipwreck (talk about huge luck for the man). Proving that people did live there. And the find eevn seemed to indicate that it might have been one that experienced the flood, as it still had things lying around and the foundations of the walls were visible (no time for the more harsh abovewater environments to wear it down).
Here we go again... After so many threads in Frontroom or Backroom :inquisitive: about religion, creationism, atheism, ... you opened this in Monastery.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
Jesus Christ walked over water. So what? For me, true. :book:
P.S.
I saw several wonders by my eyes.
I don't want to know if God exists, I don't want to know if Jesus Christ existed, I don't have anything to do with the pro's and cons of religion. I just want to know whether or not there can be found a "logical" explanation for some bible events. I'm talking about posts like that of Kraxis. I'm now interested in this because we study the impact of the Bible and stuff... It is just interesting, it has nothing to do with politics. Everyone that believes in God, believes in God, everyone that does not, does not. I'm not Christian but i do believe in a "God", not necesary the christian one...
I have theology books at home (Orhodox Christianity) and yes, I have explanations about miracles, but I don't have time to translate and it is very hard to do it.:no:
Quite frankly, the most logical explanation is that none of this happened and was just written down by some guy with a big mouth, spare time, ink, paper and a bad/strange nightmare.
I do call myself a Christian and I don't think I'm stupid or naieve because of it. Jesus DID walk on water. For me, it's fact, and it's not because I just accepted it as a child. In fact, I was a very big atheist in my early teenage years and about two years ago(about 16 years old or so) I really did start believing there is a God. Those that call Christ's miracles myths are trying to scientifically explain what is probably not scientifically explainable. It was God's WILL that allowed these things to happen. Placing faith in anything so supernatural as this is very hard, but for salvation imho it is a necessity.
As for the "tsunami" idea: Give me a break! You need more faith to believe that then you would in God and Jesus' miracles!
It actually proves people think along the same tangents. The story of Achilles is for example extremely similiar to a germanic legend. It ultimatly proves we are all humans and can come to the same conculsions through observation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dol Guldur
Not too long ago the History Channel did a series about generals of the Bible (Moses, Joshua, David, etc.). Since the Bible doesn't say much about the actual military tactics they used, the documentary instead attempted to apply rational explanations for some of the miraculous victories described in the Old Testament. For example, rather than a miraculous and timely parting of the Red Sea saving the Hebrews from the Egyptian's army, they attributed the story to the fact that Moses was familiar with the terrain and knew that a certain marshy area would fill with water or drain according to tide flow and wind direction, and therefore used the terrain to his advantage when evading and trapping the Egyptian Army.
I don't see most of these types of explainations as blasphemy or damaging to faith in any way, unless they just outright call someone a liar. After all, what difference does it make if God spontaneously created pillars of fire and brimstone to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, or if he put a meteor in place at the creation of the universe that would impact those places at just the right time? Whether "magic" is used, or natural forces are directed and utilized the events are still miraculous.
I wouldn't call about 5 metres per century scary, m8Quote:
The end of the last ice age saw a rise in the waterlevels that was downright scary.
Well theoritically speaking it can be seen as the Flood, the boundaries we have now are formed about 7500 BP, that's almost the start of the first stories in the bible.Quote:
That can explain the more general stories, however it happened over a long time, so the Flood as we know it doesn't really fit that well.
Ah, but it is. Imagine the economic, social, and political catastrophe that would ensue if the current sea level is only raised two meters from what it is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Of this thread, the inherent premise is disputed: is the Bible a holy text, a historical account, or fiction, or all combined? To take it as face value: "And Moses' spreading the Red Sea is truth because I think so, and I'm searching high heaven to find a possible, if not plausible, explanation for it," is not very good. You'd be concluding before investigating, a colossal flaw.
Dutch dikes are 2 metres high, anyone can build them.Quote:
Ah, but it is. Imagine the economic, social, and political catastrophe that would ensue if the current sea level is only raised two meters from what it is now.
Plus you have to takes this in mind for Northern Europe, we have our climate because of the warm gulfstream. If the landice will melt cold, not-salt water will interrupt that gulfstream, that means this area will get far colder. Maybe even as cold as in the Younger Dryas (that's a drop of 20 degrees (in Celsius and Kelvin) in 100 years). If that happens ice will start to form and the sea won't be that high, besides this area won't be inhabitable.
I know little about other continents but we know it's coming.
About Moses, it's said that he never crossed the Red Sea, but swampy area near the coast, Jews would have find their way through together with guides which the Egyptians didn't have and they would drown in the muddy, swamp wetland.
I didn't mention the rate of the rise... I mentioned that the rise was scary in itself. At this time people were beginning to live in villages. That means farmers and fishermen. Now think if you were living in a fishingvillage and your elder tells you that when he was a little boy he was climbing trees far out to sea. And imagine you, now as an elder yourself, having to tell the same story when that time comes because the village has move a couple times in your lifetime as well. Add it up and over time people would be scared because the story would grow and grow until it didn't fit the physical evidence anymore. It would become a legend that would live long after the sea stopped rising (and in fact began to drop again), but the stories were true for so many generations that it would be ingrained in the cultural mind to keep telling it and perhaps expand a bit on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
Also, I didn't put this forward as to explain the Jewish Flood (yeah yeah... I know that it isn't solely Jewish but bear with me). I mentioned this as to explain the worldwide floodstories, which do seem to differ to an extent.
The Jewish Flood I explain via the Black Sea incident. That was a rapid rise in water and likely many people died because of this.
Another possible culprit would be when the Atlantic broke through to the Med. However there doesn't appear to have been much land gobbled up by the water there.
As far as the main topic
Give me a log that will hold me above water and yet be about 99 percent submersed in water. Now cut it in half put a 1 inch diameter wooden dowel that is a few centimeters long and attach it to your footing. Go out about 100 feet and maybe even try for a day that is a bit calm with small swells of about 6 inches. If you had good balance and coordination you could make it look likr you were walking on water. Then have your buddy run to the village create a commotion and everyone sees him walking on water.
Then he also could have been blessed with sight and knowledge of what scientists today call dark matter or another dimension that allowed this.
You might want to brush up on the storyQuote:
Give me a log that will hold me above water and yet be about 99 percent submersed in water. Now cut it in half put a 1 inch diameter wooden dowel that is a few centimeters long and attach it to your footing. Go out about 100 feet and maybe even try for a day that is a bit calm with small swells of about 6 inches. If you had good balance and coordination you could make it look likr you were walking on water. Then have your buddy run to the village create a commotion and everyone sees him walking on water.
Matthew 14:22-33
The question being asked would be: How did Jesus walk on water during a storm?
Not entirely true afaik. It's 7500 BP when the boundaries we now have were made, that's 5500 BC (roughly). People started to live in villages in Holland in about 6000 BP. But yeah they had hunting camps. But they could easely see the water come and back off.Quote:
At this time people were beginning to live in villages. That means farmers and fishermen.
Maybe you heard about the story about Mammoths and Wooly Rhino's drowning into the sea on Doggers bank, well that isn't true. Firstly because they were extinct. Secondly because Doggersbank was already a muddy, wetland when it became separated.
And about the trees, they can't live in salt water
I read about another theory for this flood.Quote:
The Jewish Flood I explain via the Black Sea incident. That was a rapid rise in water and likely many people died because of this.
Another possible culprit would be when the Atlantic broke through to the Med. However there doesn't appear to have been much land gobbled up by the water there.
One of the Greek island would have had a volcano, that errupted and caused a tsunami, and that flooded most of Egypt and Isreal as we know it now.
They also made a different theory about Moses with this.
Before the flood comes the water pulls back, at that point Moses and his bunch cross the sea and when the Egyptians are there the Tsunami comes.
The entire Nearth Sea wasn't one big salty marshland. It had fresh water enough for trees. However there weren't likely to be many, and it wouldn't most likely haev been a grass plain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
I haven't heard about drowning animals. Why do you persist in making the flood faster in my mouth? I have already stated in the first post that the flood was too slow to fit the Jewish Flood.
That would be Thera, or Santorini (same place).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
But what you heard would have been the great eruption that most likely mortally wounded the great Minoan civilization, and could be the background for the Atlantean myth. However, neither Egypt nor Israel suffered much from this.
That's not what I mean, you say climb in trees in sea, that means the trees are half underwater, alteast that's what I made of it.Quote:
The entire Nearth Sea wasn't one big salty marshland. It had fresh water enough for trees. However there weren't likely to be many, and it wouldn't most likely haev been a grass plain.
In that case it's another one, it has been on Discovery (or NGC) I think, atleast in Holland, was something called Bible Week, in which they explained all sorts of myths from the bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
Trees did grow out there.
So when you as an old man explain the different circumstances, explaining that you climbed a tree far away, now out to sea, would be a powerful tool.
Eitherway, the tree itself would stand around for quite a long time after it died. You can see that in the many places where trees have in fact been gobbled up by water.
In Brazil they are even conducting some underwater logging.
Hmm in that case I misunderstood you, I thought you meant Tree in water, my climbs it. Not tree was there 50 years ago, my climbed it then.
Anyway most trees die in salt water, not all, that was my bad too
Stig i saw that too. All the myths youve just described ive heard too... some are plausible some are not... im going to dig some more myths up :D
Don’t tell Beirut! :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraxis
There has also been a bit of underwater logging in Michigan’s Lake Superior, it is desirable because the timber has tight growth rings and lots of um because they are old, slow growth trees from densely forested areas (not found today) wonderfully preserved by the chilly water.
I've had a bad cold this week and so have watched quite a bit on telly. One of the programs I (re)watched was the BBC documentary Coast. It seems that by using underwater detection equipment in the North Sea off the coast of Norfolk, they can trace the path of an ancient river system that flowed south toward the English Channel.
They also took samples from the seabed and found peat deposits. Peat can only be formed on dry land, not saltmarsh.
A few years ago on holiday in Wales I went to a seaside village called Borth. An interesting place.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/mid/sites.../pages/5.shtmlQuote:
It's worth making the trip to Ynyslas at low tide in the hope of witnessing this amazing sight. Tree stumps of oak, pine, birch, willow and hazel can be found embedded in peat at one metre below the normal surface between high and low water marks. Even twigs and branches are uncovered.
This submerged forest proves that the coastline used to be further west and that the sea level has risen. Radio carbon dating suggests that these trees died around 3500 BC (but others to the south, near Borth, date from 1500BC). The tree stumps were preserved by the acid anaerobic conditions in the peat.
The forest remains also hark back to the legend of a lost land - the Lowland Hundred or Cantre'r Gwaelod as it's known in Welsh.
Ruled by Gwyddno Garanhir, the low-lying kingdom was protected from the sea by a series of dykes and sluice gates. One stormy night, the appointed watchman Seithennin - a heavy drinker - was at a party and left the water gates open. The land was flooded and disappeared under the waves. Perhaps there was an earthquake and a tidal wave or tsunami.
It is said that if you listen closely, you can hear the bells of the lost city ringing out from under the sea, especially on quiet Sunday mornings and particularly if you're in Ynyslas or Aberdyfi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantref_Gwaelod
Yeah till 7500 BP it was possible to walk to England.
After that it might have been possible for about 100-200 years if the tide was with you. That was from Den Helder in Holland to about Hull in Yorkshire.
The Street of Dover was closed far before that.
I believe that Great Britain and Ireland were split only far later on, maybe only 4000 BP, but since I study Archaeology in Holland that's not what I get, I get Northern Europe. In the Allerod (for give the fact that I don't know how to do a o with a bar through it) techniques of crafting flintstones were made in England and later on they were introduced in Holland, Northern Germany and Denmark. And these cultures most likely did trade too.]
tbh I love to know what Great Britain would have looked like if it was split up earlier, as that would have meant that there wouldn't be large trees and most likely loads of open grassland. As the seeds of large trees would never have been able to reach Great Britain. Would have been a seperate Island like Australia or New Zealand. But then human will have changed it, but just the vision is good.
I've heard the theory that it was originally a Reed Sea (wetland), but an English translator contributed a typo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
yeah now you mention it I heard something like that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pannonian
And there are more things like that, about the mountain Moses would have climbed to talk to God, there are 3 different possibilities for that one, all down to typo's and translation errors because it went from Hebrew to Latin to Old English to English etc.
that is what i saw on the discovery channel. maybe im confusing 2 stories here but i thought that they also said that the egyptians werent really "swallowed" by the "reed sea" but actually were beaten in combat in the marshy wetlands. Moses, guided by God, defeated the egyptians that were chasing them. Their bodies were swallowed by the "reed sea".
So while Moses and his followers survived, the egyptian prince and his army were lost in the wetlands.
Stig - You forgot aramese. Jesus probably spoke Aramese... there is a theory about atlantis too, that says that many errors are made in while the story was written down/told from person to person.
As for Jesus walking on water...
Here is a video of Criss Angel ("Mindfreak!") walking on water:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-yt...elated&search=
If Criss Angel can walk on water, then obviously Jesus could walk on water... due to his greater magical powers.
It goes without saying.
Of course, we have video of Criss Angel walking on water. Jesus hadn't invented video yet. His apostles had to tell people about him walking on water. Jesus should have invented video sooner.
so... chris is an kinda magician... he uses tricks... not miracles...
amazing footage, at a loss as to how it happened. how did he do that? any suggestions?:dizzy2:
i dont know... but there is definitly an explanation for that... where i'm not so sure about Jesus.
and if jesus did do it i doubt he was so careful when he took to surfing without a board.
Jesus did it on rough water. Chris did it on a pool though he is an amazing magician.Quote:
Originally Posted by VAE VICTUS
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAE VICTUS
This attempt was done by several Christian illusionists and were only able to do this by very VERY slowly walking. Something like a stand in the water and what not. This was also on the Discovery Chanel. It was said that it would possibly take a couple of mactruck loads of equipment to get enough stuff out there to do what he needed to do even if the Bible was exaggerating a good bit.
I am saying this in a very heartfelt way: Jesus was no Chris Angel. He was much better. He didn't need to use "tricks" because he was the real deal IMHO. Just because a single miracle is "debunked" (which it isn't) doesen't necessarilly mean anything.
Also, IIRC Jesus was walking on water during a rather large storm in the sea the size of about Salt Lake City (no source for this, it's just the size it reminds me of).
Interesting thread.
Personally I don't think you can debunk the bible like on "Mythbusters" the TV show as its a mythological cycle. I'm not an academic but comparative mythology has been my bag for the last 35 years so here's my 2 cents worth. Joseph Campbell really started the field and his work is well worth the read.
Firstly, at the risk of upsetting my mum further, all myths are based around historical characters and use heavy symbology to make a social or moral point regarding the consequences of inapropriate action within the context of the society the myth emanates from.
"The Jesus Myteries" by Freke & Gandy is an exellent academic work outlining the Classical Mystery cults and how the stories atributed to Jeshua ben Jusef (ben Pantera) follow the standard mystery formulae of the classical era.
I don't really think that wether you believe JC walked on water or not is that important, it's the meaning behind the message that counts, and how you live out your life in relation to others that is the real issue surounding "Jesus" and "his teachings".
The old testament is a bit of a deferent kettle of fish. The flood, etc: are standard rehashes of the oldest Semetic myths.
Were it gets interesting is around the 8th century BCE. There is, as of yet and despite the best efforts of Isreali archeoligists, no evidence for human occupation of Jerusalem or its surrounding environs before this time. During the Assyrian push towards Egypt they sort of left Jerusalem, probably because it was a new backwater city, and the surrounding 20km or so independant for a few decades. It has been put forward that real Judaism, its schism from the Sarmaratan norm, began at this time as a zenephobic reaction and as means of consolitating the power of the cities rulers with the introduction of a draconian law code to keep the city states' independance. The books of Moses and Joshua may be nothing more than a period work of propaganda to legitamise the authority of the rulers of Jerusalem by way of "God" and the old imperial power, :egypt: Egypt, as opposed to the surounding beligerant upstart Assyria.
A bit like if George Bush or John Howard was the chief rabbi.
This would go a long way to explaining the contradictions between the books of Joshua and Judges.
There's a new documentary on Hystory Channel made by James Cameron. Its title is "Exodus Decoded".
If you have time, watch it as it has comes up with new evidences and a new perspective.
I don't know whether to belive it or not but it is surely breathtaking.
damn... its not on in holland
Slartibartfast: First of all, the movie and the books are awesome :D
2nd... The title is just an eyecatcher, i never intended or though that i could unravel the myths of the bible like on the tv show, if ever.
Thanks they help pay the bills when there's a decline in the demand for Fiords and the Magrathean Planetary Consortium resorts to temperary layoffs. Please feel free to check out the original BBC Radio show available on cassette, and possibly now on CD, as I have to pay my Intergalactic Architectural licencing fee next month.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
That was why I found it such a good read, cause in the end it all boiled down to faith, and a myriad of the exploration of and the rationalization of faith, which to me is so absolutely facinating and ultimately human.Quote:
2nd The title is just an eyecatcher, i never intended or though that i could unravel the myths of the bible like on the tv show, if ever.
Make a great show though wouldn't it...next week Bhudha and the three temptresses under the tree can it be resisted, whilst the support team try to marry Carey to the "Buffolo King" so they can eat the herd.
Thank too to all the Dutch for letting us borrow Gus Hiddink, and the world cup warm up match, go PSV.
Flood:
Black Sea region: Indo-European Heimat - major strands separated out circa 5500BC
Black Sea flooded (Bosphorus straits opened up into the Med): circa 5500BC
Flood myth: ubiquitous in Indo-European mythologies...
not too difficult to join the dots.
Walking on water: I didn't see it, no one alive did, the only evidence we have is a book written at least seventy years after the event by someone with a vested interested in making JC look divine. As Campbell et al have pointed out, the Gospels and the Old Testament replay major strands of the erstwhile mid-eastern mystery traditions, rehash a few Egyptian themes (the "Slain God" formula), and borrow heavily from Babylonian / Assyrian traditions.
Red Sea = Reed Sea -- as Pannonian says. We can't say errors don't occur, they do : as witnessed by the edition of the KJ bible which was published with the commandment "Thou shalt commit adultery" (the most popular edition ever, I believe :clown: )
Moses: well, who in the ancient middle east wasn't a foundling in a basket? Another borrowing from earlier tradition.
Finally, a real myth:
:thumbsdown: I've been to Borth - it may have interesting preserved trees, and even interesting folklore, possibly even an interesting history. But it is not an interesting place :laugh4:Quote:
... a seaside village called Borth. An interesting place.
NO PSV, AJAX ROX!!! but i totally agree with the rest of your postQuote:
Originally Posted by Slartibardfast
Just had a thought about the "Biblical Flood" and it might be possible that the historical event it was based around occured alot earlier than we give it credit for.
The Wurundjeri, and other Koori peoples from around the Victorian coastline of Australia all have oral traditionals accounting for the cause of the inundation of Bass Stait at the end off the last Ice Age. Sea levels rose some 50 meters in 10 years. The run off from retreating glaciers around the world would of been massive. At that time the whole Fertile Cresent could of been aflood due to run off from the glaciers of the Caucaus and Zagros Mountains.
Some 30,000 years of oral tradition before the first written Sumerian account of "The Great Flood" perhaps?
Babylonian and Ninevite creation stories often include some form of great flood. If I can dig out my NIV study Bible and some of my Old Testament background books I'll provide some more info.
I think the whole Flood story has some ancient Babylonian origins. Basically, all the miracles and supernatural events described in the Bible have more ancient origins. They are not exclusive to the Bible or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Stranger
i know but the bible clustered them all together...
The Plagues cast down by god onto Egypt:
rivers and other water sources turned to blood
well red sands from ethiopia and other mid african areas were drawn into the nile, creating a blood colored river
reptiles (commonly believed to be frogs)
easy, as the river filled up with the red dirt, the insects and fish started to die. the insects moved out, not giving the frogs a source of food, so they moved out.
lice
same as above (without the frogs)
'Arov', meaning either flies, wild animals or beetles
this was a plague that destroyed livestock. another easy one to explain, the insects moved out the of the nile, carrying disease that affected livestock.
Pestilence
see above
Boils
insects
Storm (fiery hail)
my best guess would be volcanos
Locusts
same as frogs and lice and Arov
Darkness
now this has two possibilities.
1. volcanos (fiery hail) ash blocked the sun
2. the locusts came in huge crowds and swarms blocking out the sun
Death of Firstborn
now this one is unexplainable. my best guess is disease from cattle and insects. the hebrew first born were protected because they moved out of the area.
as for the walking on water, i doubt judea snowed
i just read an interesting piece about this in the yesterdays newspaper... ill post it as soon as possible
About Jesus walking on water... I've always had a sneaking suspicion it had something to do with the salt content in the Dead Sea. Maybe he just floated in the water, and the story got magnified by many people telling it over and over. I don't know the story that well so I can't really pass jugement... I'm a Jew