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This is so wrong. A dutch camaraman that films dutch troops must have been a bit too eager to get that killer shot, and gets stuck in a firefight with Taliban troops. So what does he do, he picks up a gun and joins the fight. About twenty dead taliban and a few civilians apparently. Maybe it is selfdefense but he should have never gotten himselve into this situation. This is pretty bad imho.
linkie dutch
http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/5...p_Taliban.html
it sounds like he was very brave to me, getting into the fighting when he could have run away (i would of) --> although i don't know what the link says, it might present a different stroy :2thumbsup:
Hmm maybe it's me having a problem with an untrained civilians picking up assaultrifles and start spraying, he endangers both the civilians and the troops. Not to forget that he endangers his fellow journalists, making them a legitimate target. :thumbsdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
Frag -- since when do you have problems with Dutch guys getting guns and killing muslims??? :dizzy2:
It's just not very creative, a little bit of personal style never hurt anyone. Sometimes I get the feeling their heart is not in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by macsen rufus
:laugh4: Now he becomes the victim of his own reputation... :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by macsen rufus
I agree 100 % you have to be crazy to run around with a camera during real gunfights. Apparently the guy was making a documentary about commando troops. The Dutch army isn't happy about it, on the other hand, why didn't they forbid this crazy civilian to shoot this kind of documentary?
They allowed it, thus they knew sooner or late he would be in a situation where his life would be in danger. The guy was being shot at. Imho it was self-defense. What was his alternative? Sitting down an a chair waving a white flag, screaming: "Don't hit me, I'm a journalist!".
My Google-fu is not strong enough -- I'm not finding an English version of this article. If somebody finds it, please post the link. (Or better yet, the article. I'm lazy.)
What I find a bit weird, according to our media our troops haven't had a scratch so far, and are completily pwning Taliban. Then it is a bit weird of you find a special forces weapon on the floor, usually these things come with a commando attached.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndresTheCunning
Luckily for the Dutch troops he wasn't working for CNN, he would have shot the Dutch troops then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
This is the main issue about the cameraman picking up a weapon and fighting. Does his actions on the battlefield now remove the supposed neutral status of the press in the combat.
I for one understand that in past wars, the combat journalists of the past were not given neutral status by the opposing side. If you study WW2 in any detail around the combat journalism topic, you will discover that many were indeed killed or wounded. In Vietnam this also happened. In the movie "We were soldier's once and young." The co-author of the book got involved in the battle also.
:laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Good one Dave...
And a Fox guy would have flushed a few Qurans down the toilet before killing the Taliban...
:clown:
My German isn't strong enough to understand Dutch, so I have no idea whether he actually killed anyone, but then, it doesn't really matter. He was taking photos, he was shot at, he shto back. Seems like a pretty linear story.
suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoreBag
Frag, please, provide articles in English next time. First of all, most people on these forums do not understand Dutch. Secondly, your unofficial summary of the events may be biased, so we want to see the source ourselves.
to be fair, most people on these forums do not understand English, but it doesnt stop them posting :clown: :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonArchangel
I read neither German nor Dutch, but journalism formatting in the West is pretty similar. The article is what Frag purports it to be. I could not determine if the weapon was Dutch, Taliban, or a personal tool of the journalist.
History shows us numerous examples of journalists caught up in combat. A few of them, "embedded" with a unit for a while, have picked up on the esprit de corps of that smaller unit and have fought with them in extremis. Human nature I expect.
I don't understand anything not even what I'm typing.
That's uncalled-for. The article looks legit, and the summary isn't off the wall. I would just like an English version so's I can read it for my own education and entertainment.Quote:
Originally Posted by DemonArchangel
It's been hours, and nobody's found an English version? Buncha bums.
How do journalist somehow have immunity status from all forms of combat? If there is battle going on, and the enemy has a journalist off to the side, hes a target. Reminds me of those cameramen that got bombed because they were recording a live battle between Isreali and Palestenian gurellias. They were too close, and the isrealis bombed them to pieces.
Richard Pearle et al. Wasn't their just a journalist working with the Palestinians who was kidnapped by them today? If you're western and/or with western troops, you're a target. You're applying a western paradigm to an eastern mindset. That being said I think the commandos could have taken care of the problem themselves. :skull:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Journalists are not nuetral when documenting wars with muslims. There are countless examples of journalists being tortured and killed by them.
This guy did nothing wrong in my opinion.
Combat journalists shouldn't be given special treatment in the first place. For starters their alot of times embeded with a unit and they are wearing combat fatigues and body armor. That means an enemy force would have a hard time identifying them. They also shouldnt be wearing big glowing orange vests to signify them as journalists becuase that would be detrimental to the unit their following. IMHO journalists with a unti are combat personel, not civilians. They should be alowed just like in previous war's to pick up a rifle and defend them and assist the unit their following. But I do find it comical he found a commando's rifle.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
_________________
Speak softly and carry tactical nukes.
RidicolusQuote:
BigTex
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb
Journalists aren't neutral.
Not for ages. They'll always report the news from their own paradigm, which is usually completely different from that of the opposing side.
Journos would look very similar to troops and particularly I assume intelligence officers... ultimately they fullfill a similar role to propaganda ministries... therefore they are in the very frontline in a war of idealologies... definitly not neutral and I can't remember when they have been given the same access as say a the Red Cross.
He was doing his job getting that close to the action, and doing his duty by helping when things got crazy. Nor is it valid to say he was a particular danger to innocents or friendlies-- if the troops hadn't trusted him, they never would have let him come along.
Zing! :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave
Good on the cameraman I say. :2thumbsup:
I agree. It's also a reason why being "in"bedded with military units as a journalist will completely cloud their objective judgement. The whole embedding program is a brilliant example of information control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
Getting back to the subject at hand though, journalists shouldn't be fighting but in a situation where it might be a matter of kill or be killed, you couldn't really blame them for defending themselves.
I'm sure the Taliban would have never, ever harmed this guy if they killed all the Dutch troops and he was the only one left. They probably would have given him some hot soup, a neck massage and let him have a goat.
No comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
Does that make him an unlawful combatant?
That's what I thought. Had he killed a civilian, the spindocters could turn this into major trouble.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDC
I wonder if the Dutch military would have taken a different view if it was Karksens instead of Franke that was involved ?
This probably isn't a great translation, but oh well..
Cameraman fires at Taliban
By Ron Korver & Charles Sanders
DEN HAAG/TARIN KOWT – The Defence department has got a huge problem because a Dutch cameraman fought side-by-side with commandos against the Taliban.
During a firefight the man grabbed the weapon of a machinegunner and fired at the Taliban. The royal military police researches the case.
If the uniformed civilian hit anyone isn’t known, but according to the NAVO about 20 Taliban were killed in the firefight, and several civilians were wounded.
The gunner, Vik Franke, was hired by the defence departement for 6 weeks, to make a documentary about the Dutch commandos.
On 11 october he participated in a patrol with about 25 Dutch special forces, some American soldiers and a unit of the Afghan army.
About 6 kilometers from the base a vehicle hit a mine. 1 Afghan soldier was killed and 9 others wounded.
Immediately afterwards the patrol was being shot at from 3 sides by a big group of Taliban, who had prepared the ambush well.
The cameraman continued filming until his battery was empty.
“We wanted to retreat to a dry river, but we were also being shot at from that direction”, said Franke. “I once learned in military service that in such a case, you have to return fire. I then grabbed the Diemaco of a commando and fired at a cornfield were you could clearly see Taliban-weapons firing”.
(+ a short part I couldn't translate)
Well it would make him a spy under the geneva conventions, and uneligable for any protections under them. As for a unlawful combatant, at least if he was he would be treated better then the alternative of spy. They tend to well, we don't really know to much about that you never really hear back from spy's who are caught.:dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by BDC
_____________________
Speak softly and carry tactical nukes.
RidicolusQuote:
BigTex
"Hilary Clinton is the devil"
~Texas proverb
nah, the taliban are the unlawful combatants. but it did state he did what he was there to do, record the battle, and he did until his battery ran out. from there he simply acted upon his military training, and justly so, the taliban see us as americans, civilians, soldiers, mothers with children, in there eyes we are all infidels and must be destroyed, right? so i cannot say he was wrong for defending himself using the weapon (probably aquired from the dead afghan from the mine) to strike back. it was an all sides ambush, you just need to shoot more of them or you die, 1 more machine-gunner would really help.:beam:
Cameramen > Taliban insurgents.
So perhaps he took the rifle of an assistant gunner of a crew-served weapon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy1991
It would be interesting to have more details about the circumstances and how the soldiers around him reacted. Based on what was translated by Roy, I could see how the cameraman's actions might not have been so good. For instance, if he had grabbed someone's weapon without asking that alone could have been cause for consternation. If he had then proceeded to pick a target and begin firing at it without the direction or control of the supervisor in the area, I could see some squad leader getting enormously pissed off, possibly with good cause.
At any rate, important details of the situation are unclear from what we've seen so far, it would be interesting to have more information.
You need a supervisor/commander to shoot at masked people are who shooting at you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Arroyo
"You there, cameraman, how DARE you shoot them insurgents, they were MY targets you ####!"
Who cares? They're the bad guys and we're the good guys in this war, aren't we? ~;)
I really do not have a problem with this. I believe that if you are going to be a journalist in a war, you should have at least basic firearms training. It would really help for situations like this.
What if you were the man who was being shot at, in an unfamiliar area, with an unfamiliar cirumstance?
Of course you are going to shoot...
Hey, you think he was just going to stand there, and not do anything? Kinda stupid to be getting Shot at, and not defend yoursel. I would have Glady did the same..