Who's your favorite minor power?

satchef1 put up a post that got me thinking about the smaller factions, and how they can be a fun challenge. You're surrounded by guys that are bigger and more powerful than you. You can't just sit there building up your one province, so you have to expand almost immediately. At the same time, however, you must choose carefully in where you expand, lest you bite off more than you can chew!

So out of curiosity, what's everyone's favorite small faction? Feel free to list factions made playable in the mods (XL, BKB, etc.).

For myself, I would have to say the Danes--gotta love those Viking units with their Longships. ~D In the XL mod, I also like the Scots, Bohemians, and Portuguese.

Aragon. I usually grab the 5 provinces bordering on Aragon, then sit tight and play out my game. I let the Almos have the rest of Iberia, the French (or English) have anything north of Aquitagne, while I capture the mediterranean isles and Antioch. Distinctly different game from the Spanish, with all of the Spanish plusses (Iron, Lancers, etc) yet none of the druggery of Spanish GA game where you HAVE to conquer alot in order to get ahead.

On the flip side of this....I hate Sicilians.

In the vanilla MTW VI the Aragonese. The Danes were also fun, and probably even more challenging, but their huscarles I found a bit overpowered.

In XL, the Volga Bulgars were my favorite minor faction. I am obviously quite biased, but I loved them mainly for the challenge they presented (more than even the Bulgarians in high and late - too easy). They are surrounded by poor lands and plenty of enemies, have no easy see access, and then even if able to destroy the Cumans, Novgorods, Kievans and Lithuanians, they ran into a trong Byzantine or Fatimid Empire to the south and a strong Hungarian Kingdom to the west. The the Horde comes. And the best part was that unless they captured Bulagria and Wales, the Volga Bulgars were limited to vanilla archers for the entire game - no crossbows, now compund bows either. Makes one see the slav javelinmen in a very different light. Also, no swords/axes infantry after 1204 (except Urban Militia) - and to get it before that one needed to capture Kiev, Novgorod and Scandinavia, and it was still hard to afford due to building requirements, training costs and high upkeep.

The Serbs had an overpowered roster in XL, and the Portugese wer a bit boring, as they did not present anything new - they were too similar to the Spanish and Aragonese. The Bohemians were quite tough to play with - with them you soon find yourself in the shoes of the HRE, just unable to crusade and without Shwabian swordsmen. The Bohemian Archers were great (perhaps the best hybrid unit), but that was about all the advantage the Czechs got. Now I am thinking of reinstalling the XL mod to play with the Bohemians again... The Swedish and Armenians I also found quite hard to play with. The Hospitaliers in Late were fun, I enjoyed a campaign with them.

In BKB there were plenty of units for each faction, and since you could always field a perfect, balanced army of very strong units with any faction, I could not enjoy it as much as the XL mod.

The mod I currently play is the MedMod. It is by far the most challengeing regardless of which faction you play with. I was able to get the Pechenegs and Portugese to a good start. I was unable, so far, to do it with the Serbs. I am confident I can take on the Hungarians and beat them, even if gradually and with a lot of tough battles. However, the Byzantines always attack me at the back and even if I repulse them, the Sicilians simply come with hordes of superior heavy cavalry and finish me off. That goes for Early, in Late I have only played the Bulgarians and after a few unsuccessfull attempt, with a little luck I got them off to a nice start and won by Glorious Achievements.

Overall, if I have to choose one minor faction with which I have had most fun, it is the Volga Bulgars in XL, in Eary (High is simply impossible). They presented a great challenge, a unique army, and all the fun that comes from playing a Muslim faction - Jihads, Crusades, etc.

The Danes definitely are in the best position for a small faction in Early. They border the HRE only, who tends to leave them alone (they have larger worries). They can take Sweden easily for the iron and farming benefits. With longboats, they will beat out the other northern/western factions in naval power, giving them both trade and mobility. And their units rock in Early, even if you don't tech up to huscarles.

Wow, Kavhan, you've really gotten around with the mods; I'm impressed. (I've still only played XL thus far.) :bow:

I agree it's a pity the Bohemians and Portuguese don't really get that many new units in XL, but I still love the challenge of playing them. (I've actually yet to succeed as the Bohemians; I always get ganged up on at the worst possible times! :dizzy2: ) And the Portuguese are even harder than Aragon, as they don't have any rebel provinces into which they can expand. For them, they must go to war immediately--either with the powerful Almos to the south, or their Catholic brothers (Castille-Leon) to the east.

Dang. Just talking about those two factions makes me want to start another campaign as one of them now! I'm leaning towards the Portuguese, as it's been a good while since I last played them. That, and they can Crusade in XL. ~D

The Danes they have one of the best starting positions they also have pretty strong units in the Early era

Bohemia, Scotland or Armenia.

I've played as Sicily (Vanilla and XL), Aragon, Bohemia (XL) and the Danes. I've had success with them all, but the Danes and Sicilians have brilliant starting positions, the Sicilians especially. Money is always tight early on for small factions, but the Danes and Sicilians can make up for that very quickly, the Bohemians unfortunately struggle to get off their feet financially, whilst Aragon faces similar problems.

The thing is Bohemia has no trade, taking Pomerania and Prussia (very decent provinces) and holding them is hard work since you have to build these provinces up from near scratch which costs alot of money early on. Even then growth tends to be stunted as you have to spend big on your armies, more so than a normal faction of this size would, just to defend your territory and vast frontiers, nevermind expanding much. Aragons situation isnt as bad, tax revenue in Spain is always good, but trade can be a problem, silk can get you alot of money, however many provinces in Italy, southern France and Spain have silk already so you cannot trade with them effectively. Therefore you must expand your fleet further east, which is enormously costly. Conquering more than simply Valencia and Navarre will obviously provide you with more, but Spain is abit unpredictable, nobody knows who is going to dominate the peninsula and when England and France will involve themselves.

Sicilys position is excellent, an island in MTW is a fortress if you have a fleet, Sicily is also very very rich, southern Italy to provides steady income and a springboard for further expansion. The Danes in vanilla have a great time, Sweden and Norway are easily conquered, once a fleet can be developed (slowly due to cash) trade will grow, thankfully most factions seem to ignore the Danes. You also have a unique early unit roster that is invaluable to your starting progress. The only problem with the Danes is that they are like the Turks and HRE, prone to civil war at anytime, the larger you get the more likely civil war becomes in my experience. Every single time i've played as the Danes i've had a civil war just when my empire ihas expanded.

In XL, I really liked playing Armenia. Bear In mind that in vanilla people get wary of playing as Turks because they are stuck between Byzantium and Egypt... well the Armenians are stuck between Byzantium, Egypt and Turks! Three neighbours, all of whom could crush you soon as look at you.

In the end I decided to go for the Egyptians first, took Antioch and built up from there whilst trying to keep the peace with the other two. Cash flow at the beginning is very poor so Antioch was a must. Orthodox means no Pope problems too (apart from the odd crusade passing through...)

The AP bonus of the Armenian infantry was really useful, as they had the ability to swamp and defeat kataphraktoi (Arm Inf come in handy 100-man units). Obviously you also get AHC.

Was a tough start, but soon ended up with very powerful armies and good generals :2thumbsup:

In PMTW I've really enjoyed the Crimean Khanate, with mostly horse-archer armies, until some cossack lands have been conquered, starting with just Levidia and Crimea. Again, the Ottomans are a major neighbour, and also the Russians of some flavour, both quite big.

Scots in PMTW and in XL also provide an interesting variant on the "British but not English" theme :beam:

I have played as Aragon, Denmark and Sicily.

The only one that is really challenging is Aragon. Once you've taken Navarre, Toulouse and Valencia you've got to garrison all provinces to avoid an attack by the Elmos, the HRE, England and Spain. Moreover your only trading provinces are difficult to develop cause with such garrisons it is difficult to spare any cash to build a fleet ... If you are very agressive and overextend without having built ships you can end up with the Italian on your doorstep ... Really a tough game and it does not get better in High or Late. Got so stuck once in my 4 spanih provinces that I sent a crusade to take Livonia, built one ship, cross to Sweden and Norway and started my own danish game without Viking and Huscarls.:juggle2:

Danes and sicilian are far easier because you do not need to defend against any faction early (Papacy north or HRE south will not attack you unless you leave the provinces defended by one unit of peasant). You can get an insane amount of cash without trouble and then chose whom you wanna hit (the superpower to reduce it or the crippled factions.:smash:

Inspired by thsi topic, yesterday night I was finally able to get the Serbs in medMod off to a good start. The key was to wait, instead of attacking as quickly as possible. I know the general rule is to rush with a small, one-province faction, but if you do it with the Serbs im MedMod you simply get crushed by the Hungarians and the Byzantines (and occasionally the Sicilians, if you live that long, meaning until the mid 1090s). So I spent the first decade in peace, built a silver mine and a port, then a warf and finally a single galley to guard me from the Sicilians, Venetians and Genoese, and by that time the Hungarians were in war with the HRE and the Byzantines in war with the Seljuks. It took me half a century and a bunch of humiliating defeats against Byzantines small armies with simply unbeatable katanks and variangians, until I was able to get a decent kingdom, comprising of Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria, Panonia (in MedMod Hunary is divided into Panonia and Transdanubia) and Wallachia, and my situation is still precarious. However, this feels realistic, as my expansion is only limited, slow and after every province I conquer it takes me almost a decade to secure it. Also, it was perhaps much more historically accurate for a small faction to be cautious about getting into wars with larger and more powerful neighbors, and expand only when presented with a great opportunity. It was nice to see that you can beat overwhelming odds with patience for once, and not necessarily rushing and relying on the AIs inaptness on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

However, the Byzantines always attack me at the back and even if I repulse them, the Sicilians simply come with hordes of superior heavy cavalry and finish me off.

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The same happens when you play as the HRE. Sicily owns Provence in Early which borders Dauphine....which means that they'll attack you sooner or later, JUST like everyone else does, and they always bring tons of their Sicilan Feudal Knights, coupled with the occasional hero general. Argh! Really a nuisance to deal with. When I finally got a half-decent start for the faction I ended up to have to fortify Dauphine ASAP and upon the attack retreated to the keep, which was comparably well defendable. This situation and special MedMod circumstances have definitely rendered this campaign almost the hardest I ever played.

But since this is a thread about favourite small factions: Although I liked the Armenian campaign a lot I never earned some long-term success there. Strange since in my games the AI Armenia always smashes the Turks and establishes itself as a regional power in Eastern Asia Minor....until they get beaten by the Crusader States, that is.
The Hungarians in PMTW (High) were a great experience. One province to start with and an overwhelmingly large, rich and powerful foe at the gates (the Ottomans). It is possible to become decently powerful (well, through *many* crushing victories against numerically far superior armies) but you'll likely end up being sandwiched between the Ottomans, the Hapsburgs and later probably the Russians, which provides quite some fun even after the mid-game. Your units in Late are not really state-of-the-art either, so you better be quick in those 76 years before the western powers can tech up to Line Infantry!

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Originally Posted by Deus ret.

The same happens when you play as the HRE. Sicily owns Provence in Early which borders Dauphine....which means that they'll attack you sooner or later, JUST like everyone else does, and they always bring tons of their Sicilan Feudal Knights, coupled with the occasional hero general. Argh! Really a nuisance to deal with. When I finally got a half-decent start for the faction I ended up to have to fortify Dauphine ASAP and upon the attack retreated to the keep, which was comparably well defendable. This situation and special MedMod circumstances have definitely rendered this campaign almost the hardest I ever played.

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I tried the HRE, with no success. I attacked the Venetians in Verona, because it is easily defensible (river battles). I would have captured Venice itself, but I was attacked by the Sicilians, genoese, Polish and Hungarians simultaneously. I held out pretty well while my first Emperor was alive, but when his son inherited the throne with only three stars influence, and I had to get out of Poland (which I had taken) when the Hungarians and the Polish attacked at the same time, a civil war broke out, and I lost half the Empire, and then another one broke out and I simply gave up. The problem is that there are too many borders, too many enemies and even if you deal with one or two of them, you cannot completely destroy them as you have to defend yourself against the rest, and overall your enemies recover quicker than you. The Sicilian Feudal Knights are simply unstoppable, as is the italian light infantry. And having no fleet in the Mediterranean means the Sicilians wil be bringing tons of reinforcements. The Saharan cavalry is also very, very good, and when the Sicilians start ravaging in Africa, and bringing tons of nubian spearmen and saharan cavalry to support their knights, it is extremely hard to fight them even if they are your only enemy.

I should probably try Pike & Musket when I amd one with the MedMod - it sounds like a fun mod as well.

Hmm, probably Sicily in vanilla MTW. In XL it's definitely the Serbians.

Im torn between Armenia (XL) and Navarre (BKB).

Armenia have the best units in the game, Armenian infantry are capable of beating ANY foot knights, they have good heavy cavalry capable of standing toe-to-toe with nearly all western nights, and (IIRC) with certain provences they get Turcopoles and Trebizond archers. They're only weakness is the rough start they get!

My Navarre campaign was brilliant! Really crazy, i allied with the Almoravids who became the biggest power (about 20 provences in northern africa, iberia and france).

At this point i had 2 provences (Navarre and Gasgony, which i nabbed off the Aragonese before they got destroyed), but after a while the number of spies i'd shoved into the Almoravid lands began to have an affect, they were fighting off rebels and civil wars left, right and center!

I took this chance to attack them, taking Aragon and Tolouse and starting a crusade to take Ile De France. The Novgorods took most of Iberia with the Egyptians grabbing Africa + the east coast of Iberia. Unfortunately for me, my crusade got to Aquitaine at the same time as the Novgorods and a rebelion so a 4 way battle for control of the provence ensues (2 small battles, me vs the novgorods and the rebels vs the almoravids). I won and ended up taking Aquitaine and Ile De France but was now at war with Novgorod, the new biggest power in Europe.

At this time Novgorod held the Steppes, Scandanavia and Iberia. They moved on Aragon and took it from me. Unfortunately my crusading force, a good 4,000 men, was stuck in Ile de France because The Danes took Anjou and Norse took Burgundy while my crusade was going on. I was left fighting the Novgorods with garasoning forces, i held them out of Navarre despite 5 attempts by them to take the provence. My luck was holding up, have a random guess what year it was! ~;)

The presence of the Golden Horde in the steppes changed everything! The Novgorods asked for a cease-fire, allowing me to rest and build up new armies. After a few years i attack the Danish provence of Anjou to get me access to my forces in Ile de France, then i crush The Danes and hit the British Isles. The game crashes, i load it up, it crashes again! I load up my Wales campaign (which also crashed) and look at the year. My copy wont go past 1251 for some reason :wall:

I ended with the whole of france + castile, leon, aragon, mercia, york and the orkneys. Now ive gotta go repair my install...

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Originally Posted by satchef1

Armenia have the best units in the game, Armenian infantry are capable of beating ANY foot knights, they have good heavy cavalry capable of standing toe-to-toe with nearly all western nights, and (IIRC) with certain provences they get Turcopoles and Trebizond archers. They're only weakness is the rough start they get!

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Armenian infantry are pretty neat vs. anything armoured, but like all axe/mace/polearm infantry they do badly against spearmen. Treating them as if they're Byzantine infantry could lead to disaster. You could vision them as beefed up militia sergeants, and they're pretty good :yes:

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At this time Novgorod held the Steppes, Scandanavia and Iberia.

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That's crazy :laugh4:

About BKB's Super Mod, my favourite faction would be Croatia.

Do a search for Vladimir <and> Armenia. :2thumbsup:

In regular VI i'd have to say Danes, I've played some of my best campaigns (and theres not many) as the Danes.

XL Mod it'd be the Norwegians or the Portuguese.

I love the Norwegians because of the difficult starting position and the lack of money, so you have to be careful about what you build initially.

I enjoy the Portuguese because I (atleast) always get attacked by the Almohads so I have to use a bit of brain power to defeat numerically superior armies. Also the first time I played as Portugal I defeated a army of 700 with only 150 troops.

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Originally Posted by r johnson

I love the Norwegians because of the difficult starting position and the lack of money, so you have to be careful about what you build initially

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For some reason, I didn't find the Norwegians to be that difficult. I think perhaps because--for me, at least--their strategy was so simple and straightforward. I attacked and conquered the Swedes right away, and then a few years after than, I simultaneously invaded Denmark and Skania and destroyed the Danes in one fell swoop. Once Scandanavia is secure, you have plenty of options for expansion (HRE, Baltic states, Britain, etc.). The Norwegians don't even have to expand if you don't want them to--with Sweden under your control, you could just set up a trade network and pull down tons of florins.

All that said, they're still fun to play! I may be a bit biased in saying so, however, given that I'm of Norse descent. ~D

The Sicilians.

I take Naples, then build up a basic infrastructure, army, and a few ships for a short while. When the first pope is in his mid-fifties, I take Rome, then quickly, Tuscany and Venice, isolating him in the Papal States. If there's a castle there for him to retreat to, and he's got a significant number of troops left, I'll attack him and reduce him to near nothing, then retreat. I never eliminate him, but leave him weak and surrounded, like a Japanese emperor. The pope soon dies, lifting my excommunication.

I finish off the Italians on the mainland in Genoa and Milan too, hopefully before the Pope dies, leaving them poor and isolated on Corsica and Sardinia. If they start building an infrastructure for ships on these islands, I invade, cripple, and isolate them on one island, as I've done with the pope.

If the opportunity presents itself, I ally with the Hungarians and HRE. I avoid alliances that do not provide immediate benefit, and do not ally with the Byzantines because of our religious differences.

The only significant complication with this strategy is the initial Italian fleet. I have to build enough ships, and be somewhat lucky when I launch my attack against them. If I lose my ships, it slows things down considerably.

Rome has a very nice infrastructure (castle) from the get go. This speeds up the development of advanced units, particularly knights. With Venice and Sicily, I have the basis for excellent trade, complimented by Naples, Tuscany, and Genoa. With some luck, Italian sea power has been eliminated, and its infrastructures assimilated. The pope will never be a significant threat again, though I do have to maintain small, functional garrisons in Naples, Rome, and Tuscany in addition to my main defensive armies in Venice, Milan, and Genoa. +1 valor Genoese sailors and +1 valor Urban Militia (Tuscany) are cheap to train and maintain, and are useful to a degree in the Early Period (UM as garrison troops after the first few decades).

After unifying the Italian peninsula, excepting the Papal States, I send ships--and then fast crusades via these ships--to the Holy Lands, with Antioch being my first conquest (Glorious Achievement). My crusades originate from Malta, which produces +1 valor Knights Hospitaller. My influence increases with each crusader conquest, and my heirs' characteristics improve dramatically. Soon the Pope is more than happy to ally with me, despite my initial aggression.

As the game progresses, I secure the Middle East and Africa, crusading like crazy. Then I turn my attention to Spain, and move up into western Europe from the Iberian peninsula. I work my way East from there, and if things go well, secure total victory before the Mongol Invasion. I delay my attack against the Byzantines for as long as possible, as they are usually my primary trading partners. When I do take them on, I need to have enough territorial income and banked savings to cover the loss in trade income.

I balance conquest with the expansion of trade, the development of my infrastructure, and sea power. I never worry about excommunication, just making sure that I have the garrisons and governors in place to maintain order, and timing invasions against Catholic factions with the likely demise of the current pope. I can always kill him, in battle or by assassination, if he becomes a hindrance.

This strategy works well consistently--a methodical fast track to power, influence, and eventually, domination.

I agree with Martok with the Norwegians in XL. Not only it is relatively easy to destroy the Swedes before they develop, but every time I attack Sweden from Norway, the Swedes simply pack up and leave, abandoning the province and retreating to nowehere. I actually find the game tougher when playing with Sweden, than when playing with Norway.

I too found Norway easy. Fun, though.

My favorite small faction (XL) is probably Serbia, though I do enjoy Scotland. I've not tried the Bohemians, though I think I may give them a go here whilst I wait for Neverwinter Nights 2 and M2TW. In vanilla, my favorite is the Russians (though they really aren't small since there are so many rebel territories around).

I should try MedMod...

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

abandoning the province and retreating to nowehere.

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While this doesn't happen very often to me, it's annoying indeed. It seems to happen regularily if you attack the Portugese as the Almohads.

Masamune, welcome to the Org. ~:wave: You're obviously not a newcomer to MTW, though, so perhaps my greeting may feel redundant to you(?). Either way, we're glad to have you here! ~:cheers:

Yes, the Sicilians are in excellent position from which to expand, although I myself tend not to go with the "conquer everything" approach with them. I prefer to take a couple provinces along the Med (the Hungarians and/or Serbians are good targets), maybe send a few Crusades to the Holy Land and/or Egypt, and then establish a maritime trading empire that has no rival. ~D

My only problem is, I hate the Sicilians so much when I'm another faction--as I'm sure you know, they're total bastards when controlled by the AI--that playing them feels a little like I've gone turncoat and betrayed all the other factions I've played. ~;p

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Originally Posted by Kralizec

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Originally Posted by kavhan Isbul

abandoning the province and retreating to nowehere.

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While this doesn't happen very often to me, it's annoying indeed. It seems to happen regularily if you attack the Portugese as the Almohads.

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It happens more often in the XL mod, period--for some reason, the AI has a greater tendency to refuse to fight, even when defending its last province. I'm not sure why that is, although I can only guess that it's related to VikingHorde having changed some of the factions' AI behaviors. :shrug:

Fortunately, that's the only complaint I really have with his mod (and it's a minor one, at that). Besides, it's not as if he could've rewritten the AI in any case--though if wishing made it so....

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

I agree with Martok with the Norwegians in XL. Not only it is relatively easy to destroy the Swedes before they develop, but every time I attack Sweden from Norway, the Swedes simply pack up and leave, abandoning the province and retreating to nowehere. I actually find the game tougher when playing with Sweden, than when playing with Norway.

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It seems to happen every time if you attack them on the first turn. I was expecting a good hard fight but they just pack up and run :laugh4:

Not tried a Sicily campaign yet, which is the best game to play them on? Ive got XL, BKB and MedMod installed but if theyre best in vanilla i'll put another copy on

Ive always felt the Sicilians shouldnt go and conquer everything. I think they are suited (and its more realistic I feel) that they conquer bits of territory here and there. Like Serbia, Crete, Sardinia and Corsica, maybe Greece and some territory in the Levant.

Everytime i've played them i've done this approach, its far more enjoyable than simply conquering everything, it's also something Sicily is suited to IMO. I absorb the islands of Corsica and Sardinia to safeguard the west, perhaps Tunisia to secure the south, Balkan teritory and crusades to the holyland for the east.

VI - Scillians, Aragon, Sort of danes, but i don't really count them as a minor faction - its comparatively easy expansion compared to others.

XL - Volga Bulgars are great fun, i really enjoyed playing as the crusaders recently in high, and also the scots and irish are both difficult and fun.

:2thumbsup:

I'd agree that as minor factions go, Sicily is good fun because the pots of florins that keep piling up all around you leave you with plenty of options as to how to proceed. There is always the danger that somewhere in the latter throes of the game you will abruptly run out of heirs, though....

Denmark is also fun (and probably significantly more challenging than Sicily).

I haven't tried any of the mods as yet - too busy just with VI at this stage.

My Favorite minor factions are Ireland; besides Wales there are no easy early pickings and due to the bad economy you have to go to war fast, they have an interresting rooster of units, and if you are a fan of throwing pointy things at armoured knights, this is the faction to go, Even on normal they are still a very dificult faction to get anywhere with them.

Then there is Bulgaria, This faction is always a challenge, from the east, the Byzanties, beat them and you will have to deal with the Seljuks / Egyptians, so expanding beyond Constantinoples is not an easy task. On the other end are the Cumans, and the Hungarians. I almost always find myself fighting on two fronts when playing the Bulgarians, no matter what strategy I adopt.

Last by not Least, is the papacy, small, lousy positioning, but the lordship tittles from the 2 provinces are interesting and make up for the disadvantages.

I'd say Sweden in XL (haven't played all factions in XL yet though). You're surrendered by either enemies or neutral super powers (or at least potential super powers). Last time I played (on Normal) I got attacked 5 times in five years. First by Norway, then by Denmark, then Norway, then Denmark and then finally Norway again (that time I managed to kill their king though, so they settled for a while).
Finland is the only easy picking, and without it I wouldn't have survived for long, as all my reinforcements came from Finland. However, once you get rid of Denmark (I did this by claiming Saxony from the rebels there and attacking them at two fronts) it's a quite balanced game.

Sweden is hard. When playing with it I would get attacked by the Novgorodians if I get Finland, the Lithuanians if I try to get Estonia or Livonia or Prussia. The Danes also attack sooner or later. The Norwegians do it when they run out of cash. It is pretty hard.
The Bulgarians in XL mod are relatively easy. In High, one need to take Constantinople quickly (if the rebels there are attacked, they retreat to the fortress). The rebels in Greece are bribeable, and the Serbs are predisposed towards alliance. The Cumans will eventually attack (extremely historically incorrect, as they actually joined the Bulgarian state after being loyal allies and some of their nobility even started a few of the Bulgarian dynasties in the 13th and 14th centuries), but this would be an easy bridge battle. After their army is crippled, Wallachia (where there is excellent light cavalry available) and Moldova are easy pickings, and by then they are usually at war with the Hugarians and a few other powers. I try to get Levidia, and as the Bulgarians can build arbalesters and halberdiers (historically incorrect, especially the arbalesters), stopping the Horde there is not a problem. From then on it's quite easy, and Late is similar - only a war with the Byzantines is the main difference in the opening; the Horde falls apart quicker than the Cumans, but I miss the slavic warriors for garrisons and the slavic javelinemen; arbalesters with halebrdiers and boyars are still all that is necessary though. One thing I dislike about playing with the Bulgarians is that unlike in BKB where they get accurate, Bulgarian names, in XL they get horrible greek names.

I've begun an Irish campaign and I now know that the Irish are one of the most enjoyable factions to play with. They're tough, and I'm not very good at using javelin units, but are highy entertaining, have some really über units and a nice starting position.
Being on an island gives you so many opportunities. I conquered the entire of Britain early on, but then the English re-emerged, kicking me off the island. I was more or less back to scratch, except that this time I had a big navy from my past trading empire and a big army. That leaves the field pretty open.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

One thing I dislike about playing with the Bulgarians is that unlike in BKB where they get accurate, Bulgarian names, in XL they get horrible greek names.

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It's only a suggestion, but you could check with VikingHorde to see if he would like help with names. He's been (slowly) working on a second patch for XL, and a big part of the fixes includes spelling and name corrections--for which he's been getting help from other Orgahs. (For example, I know the Serbians are going to have their own name roster when the patch comes out.) Just a thought. ~:)

@Innocentius: So I take it you've discovered the joys of Gallowglasses and Bonnachts, then? ~D

Thanks Martok, I should check with him. In the XL I played, the Serbs and Bohemians had names which appeared to be correct. And since I have no comments on the Bulgarian names in BKB (they were decent and Bulgarian, and this is all I care about, and I even think I saw a few heroes, who really existed), maybe he does not need to reinvent the wheel and could use BKB's name roster? I will check into this.

In XL I love the Scots. Poor calvalry but you do get Highlanders! Besides there is something deeply satisfying in seeing ALL of England and parts of France under Scottish rule.


Besides, this was one of the very few factions that I conquered the entire known world with. :whip:

Well, the scottish roster is really pretty über. You have special troops in almost every category (scottish spearmen, for one) and once you get Wales, it's no real problem whatever you do since the LB is superior to...well, everything.

I tried the Burgundians yesterday. What a shame they're only available in late! Although they start out quite strong, with two provinces, Switzerland as an easy taking and with a nice roster of mainly pikemen against your main enemy The French (who mainly use cavalry), the Burgundians qualifies as a minor power IMO. I pity The French, as I made an alliance with The English pretty immediately, and then took Provence and Tolouse as they were off fighting in the north.

This is why I love Burgundy:
https://img369.imageshack.us/img369/...0000007oi0.jpg

https://img370.imageshack.us/img370/...0000010bl1.jpg

I took Ile de France without fighting for it, then the french sallied. Luckily I had a bridge and some good anti-cavalry units. I used the same army in both battles, however in the second battle I had gotten an additional unit of crossbowmen from Burgundy to compensate for some casualties. That was it though. In the first battle the numbers were about 500 on my side, and the French had 2200. In the 2nd battle I had 330-something, while the French had 2500-something.
Even though I lost the second battle it felt like a victory. Also, by keeping the French occupied, I allowed my allies the English to take Bretagne, Normandy and Flanders while the Genoese took Provence :charge:

Edit: After some simple counting in the pictures, I now know that I had 562 men in the first battle and 334 in the second. I took some quite heavy losses in the siege in between the battles.

I agree that the Scots are quite fun in XL. Gotta love their heavy infantry! :thumbsup: It's a pity they can't Crusade, but they're still enjoyable.

Wow, Innocentius, those were a couple of nice defensive stands--you should be proud. ~:) I confess I've never played as any of the factions available in Late XL, as I'm not terribly interested in the gunpowder era. I've given thought to trying out the Swiss, but for some reason I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martok

I confess I've never played as any of the factions available in Late XL, as I'm not terribly interested in the gunpowder era. I've given thought to trying out the Swiss, but for some reason I haven't gotten around to it yet.

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Yeah, it's a shame that gunpowder becomes available so early (I think the first battle were gunpowder was used to a degree where it actually affected the outcome of the battle was in the mid 15th century). However, GP units aren't very strong. Handgunners and arqebusiers are easily routed with any cavalry unit and out-ranged by longbows. Also, they can't fire at all in rain, so if the attacker desides to attack on a rainy day...well...
And think of all the good units available in late (pikemen and the gothic units)!:beam:

Of the Minor factions I prefer Denmark or Sicily. Aragon seem to be just a Spanish clone, and the Poles are rather difficult! The Sicilians are quite a potent force, and if I do play as one of the smaller factions it's usually them. The Danes are good, but it takes time to tech up, set up trade routes and break out of your "alotted" territory.

As to XL I can't really say, it's ages since of played it.

**heads of to dl XL**

The crusaders in XL mod high era were a lot of fun at the beginning. Superior troops, but very few provinces, mostly underdeveloped, against the sheer size of an Egypt determined to get those lands back. It was very touch and go for awhile, with a lot of strategic sacrifices necessary to hang onto the rest of my domain. I also like hording my small handful of elite troops to counter the hordes of unwashed camel-peasants. ~:)

After I got established and started cranking out my fancy knights I quickly lost interest, but sometime I may have to revisit it to take on the Christian world. The Teutonic Knights were fun for very similar reasons, and the Armenians as well (though they didn't get quite the same level of tin cans the tiny Catholic factions could produce).

Ajax

I concur with Caravel on both the Polish and the Aragonese, although maybe not for the exact same reasons. Aragon is like the Spanish, except that they're (in my experience, at least) quite a bit harder. If you don't grab Valencia and Navarre right away, it's literally impossible to expand anywhere nearby without having to go to war with another faction--all of whom are stronger than you in the beginning.

As for the Polish, my biggest problem with them is not so much that they're difficult to play, although I thing most of us agree that they are. I enjoy a challenge, so I don't really view that as a bad thing. My main issue with the Polish is that they're boring. Their starting provinces don't have any special bonuses (no unit bonuses, no precious metals, etc.), and their only unique unit--Polish Retainers--isn't worth the time, money, and infrastructure needed to train them. To me, they simply lack "flavor".

@Ajax: How on earth do you get off the ground with the Crusaders? I know they often become powerful when played by the AI--even challenging the Fatamids for dominance in the east at times--but I just can't make a decent beginning of them. I either run out of money, or I get overwhelmed by the Egyptians bent on taking back the Holy Land. :wall:

Again, the Danes. An excellent starting position, with Norway just a stone's throw away. Also, the basic viking unit is a handy (and delightfully cheap) thing to be able to throw into the enemy's flank while they're engaged with your front line of spearmen.

Another thing, the Pope seems to bother me less as the Danes. Possibly I'm overlooking a very obvious reason for this (such as the Danes not really being a catholic faction), but I like to think that Denmark is too far away from Rome for him to be overly concerned with the implementation of the catechism.

In VI you've got to love Wales though. Their (ever so slightly freakish) bandit units are genuine all-rounders, and are quite capable of pasting anything that comes against them (apart from cavalry, best keep them away from that).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Calgacus

Another thing, the Pope seems to bother me less as the Danes. Possibly I'm overlooking a very obvious reason for this (such as the Danes not really being a catholic faction), but I like to think that Denmark is too far away from Rome for him to be overly concerned with the implementation of the catechism.

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I think the reason the Pope doesn't harrass the Danes much is because they have only one province in the beginning. (Note: For those that aren't aware, Catholic factions don't receive a Papal warning unless they're twice the size of the Catholic faction they're attacking.) All of their nearest Catholic rivals--the HRE, the English, and the Polish--start out with more provinces, so the Pope doesn't particularly care if the smaller Danes attack one of them. Yet another reason why they're fun to play. :2thumbsup:

I finally decided to install Pike & Musket and now I have a new minor faction favorite - the Moldovian principality. I have not had a chance to play enough, but it seems like it will be an interesting task to conquer Europe with troops coming from one province only and no fleet (unless you can get pirates, I have to check this, and I have to check what the Moldovians can build in the provinces with mercenary resources).

Russia in early period (actually Novgorod)

Thanks to .conan.
The Avars and Khazars are an interesting bunch.

I really like the Bohemians. After playing Medieval total war for a couple years, rapid domination bores the crap out of me. So I sat tight in bohemia (Hard setting) and watched the world go by for a century.

The hardest part is finding the balance between troups and funds. I had to make my soldiers extremely powerful ; morale, armor, and luckily bohemia has iron. Got invaded a few times, but I know my way around a archer army and completely destroyed every oncomer. Would be much much more funner if they had crusades though (The low amount of troops would make the crusade even funner).

Noone wants to marry Bohemian woman (They must have smelly feet or mustouches). So....incest.

I really should try the Bohemians again once I've finished my Portuguese campaign. I know I haven't done well as them before, but I've been itching to give them another go. Unlike you, holybandit,I haven't even lasted long enough to find out how unattractive my daughters are. ~:rolleyes:

Finding the right balance (between troops and economy) is pretty tricky with them, but I think my biggest problem as the Bohemians has been greed--always trying to grab Venice, or Pomerania/Prussia, etc. I've been a little too desperate to acquire a port province in the past....I need to remind myself that patience is a virtue. ~;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martok

I really should try the Bohemians again once I've finished my Portuguese campaign. I know I haven't done well as them before, but I've been itching to give them another go. Unlike you, holybandit,I haven't even lasted long enough to find out how unattractive my daughters are. ~:rolleyes:

Finding the right balance (between troops and economy) is pretty tricky with them, but I think my biggest problem as the Bohemians has been greed--always trying to grab Venice, or Pomerania/Prussia, etc. I've been a little too desperate to acquire a port province in the past....I need to remind myself that patience is a virtue. ~;)

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The trick is to NOT expand. I raided a few neighboring provinces (helps a little with money). The trick is to build your economy pretty quick (Early units of other countries have little armor, which helps your bowmen ALOT). Then have a continual cash flow of 100-200 (When your building one building at a time, this is enough). Also, send out the hounds of god ; Otherwise known as inquisitors. Since your 1 province and most your princes arent going anywhere, sometimes you have to do marry your princess to your heirs.

Another thing. I consider myself very very good in battle against the AI (never went multi, never fiqured out how). I can usually defeat a army 4x bigger then mine.

It used to be the Danes, unitl I realised how to "break" them then it got a bit repetative and easy.:dizzy2:
Bascally you produce:
ships, titles and money upgrade out of Demark, occasioannly roayl knights, but your princes generally cover that need.
Money upgrade and armourere + weapinsminth upgrades in Sweden.
+1V Vaikingas and trade buildings from Norway. Buff the vikings in Sweden.
Invade the british isles, and in every conqeuered province produced money upgrades and vikings. :whip: :whip:

The problem is that vikings are so cheap to produce, and to easy to get the infrastrcture for you simply spam vikings and overrun europe by sheer weight of numbers. :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash: :smash:

Fancy French army with knights and fedaul men at arms and swordsmen? No problem, attack with 3 times as many vikings.

Sophisticated desert army of horse archers and deady light infrantry? No problem, attack with 3 times as many vikings.

Mighty Katatank warrior princes? No problem, hide in a forest with 3 times as many vikings, and spend 1 unit luring them into the woods

Most "battles", the enemy just withdraws from the province. I ended up taking all of Britain, france, spain and morroco in the ealry period, with a border across Europe from Saxony to Genoa. I then turtled for half of the high period until I could spam Chiv knights, then went for the 60% victory.

The first 30-50 years where fun, then rest was a bit dull and routine.:thumbsdown:

My favourite minor power is the Polish
High period.
Expert setting.
Glorious Achievements

Why :book:

Because they are so damned HARD.

• You only start with 2 provinces, only one of which can make troops worth having.
• You have no access to the sea.
• You have enemies all around you.
• Your economy sucks
• Your unique unit is Polish retainers, a sort of weaker version of feudal knights. You do get the infrastructure to build it, but its outclassed by the high tech troops of your neigbors from day 1, so you really have to use it wisely.
• You can expand into several rebel provinces, but most of them are underdeveloped and highly rebellious, so they need a heavy garrison.
• There is no way to expand without getting very extended borders.
• You have no iron, but are close to iron if you expand in the right direction
• The mongols are coming in 15 years, and they may cut through the russinas before you are ready for them.
• Your heirs and generals aren't great.
• You are still catholic, so the pope meddles, and every other crusade seems to want to short cut through your land and siphon off precious troops.
• You are surrounded by strong enemies - HRE, Italy, Russians, and if you do cut through the hungarians to the south you hit the Byzzies.

Bascially every decision is a hard decision, and even after a number of successes victory is stll a long way away, and by no means certain.:juggle2:

It's a bit like being the HRE, but with a huge starting disadvantage of being tiny.

Sounds pretty much like any campaign with cheap infantry. Armenia and Scotland are the same (although both are a LOT harder, espec Armenia)

@holybandit: You mean you don't expand at all? :dizzy2: Wow, I don't think I could do that. I always grab at least a couple provinces, either from the Polish or (preferably) the HRE. That's not the hard part. The problem is that the lands I can conquer with relative ease don't have a shoreline. I can get a decent-sized kingdom going, but it's always land-locked; I have no sea access to speak of. It's as soon as I make a beeline for a province with a port that things seem to go awry.

Also, I'm probably not nearly as good against the AI as you are. I'm decent enough, but as I've said numerous times before, I'm no genius tactician!

@MeglaGnome: So if you've found the Danes to be too easy, who's your favorite minor power now? (EDIT: Never mind. ~:))

Im trying out the serbs now. You should too, they seem to get a decent trade income from the venetians and Geonese, and sicilians. (XL mod)

I think im going to pass the years by protecting my favorite historical empire ; Byzatium. Relieve seiges over and over again. Should be pretty fun, then do some raiding along the egyptian coast (That should be the most fun).
The only problem is that the Hungarians have a massive army right next to me, im pretty sure I could defeat it if I tried, yet that would lead to byzatium invading (Or perhaps the cumans). And like bohemia, noone wants to marry your princesses (Even though the serbs ACTUALLY have decent looking princesses; not pretty, but not horrificly ugly like other nations)

I have a sore spot for all the northern factions in the BKB mod (ie. The Scots, Irish, Welsh, Swedes, Flemish, Irish etc.) It makes it fun since you have all the other small factions to deal with, instead of pitting yourself against a superpower. And you get a real sense of accomplishment when your small, single region kingdom, becomes a major player, taking over a large portion of the map.
But playing as the Papacy is fun too... especially with the BKB mod, where they get new unique units. I guess its the whole 'Pope leading army into battle' thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeglaGnome

Sophisticated desert army of horse archers and deady light infrantry? No problem, attack with 3 times as many vikings.

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This is where I feel that the Viking bumrush tactic come unstuck. Horse archers, the bane of many a slow moving infantryman, are quite a problem for infantry units such as Vikings or FMAA. In the past, playing as the Danes, sending armies of Vikings across Europe, I would always get as far encountering horse archers and then find that my own lack of missiles, spears, light cavalry, and indeed my own missile cavalry, would leave my Viking units running about in circles or hiding in woods to avoid being shot.

Got to love all these minor factions in XL Mod:beam:
Tried the Serbs today, not surprisingly, they turned out to be yet another great faction to play as, I really like their unique units (or perhaps they're not unique, I haven't checked if the Huns and Bulgarians can get them too).

Anyway, I noticed some unusually powerful Armenians (this was in High):
https://img392.imageshack.us/img392/...0000005hc3.png
Is that normal? I've never seen them crush the [remnants of the] Byz so easily and quickly, the pic is taken in 1240-1245.

In XL the Serbian units are unique and way, way overpowered. I think they might actually have the most diverse roster, in which nothing is missing.

@Manco Capac:

Yes, the horse archers are a problem. If I can dedicated 3 vikings to one horse archer it is possible to corner and rout them, but the rest of their army must be dealt with first.

When defending, then hiding in trees is entirely acceptable.

I normally have a few missiles or cavalry available by the time I hit the desert or the eastern powers, but mainly I use sheer weight of numbers.

Eg :

They defend a province with 5 horse archers, 4 light cav, 2 spears and a royal bodyguard.

I invade with 24 vikings and a royal general. Now we all know the the battle is going to be a huge pain in the a$$ to win on the battlefield, but 90% of the time the AI will retreat from the province instead of giving battle.

You'll also notice in my last post that I took all of western europe, then turtled to become the richest and most high tech faction. Once I'm in the high period I simply use the massive territory advantage to tech up to a standard catholic army:
Halberdiers, arbalests and buffed chivalric knights.

All the spare vikings are still good for garrisons, holding the border and desert work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Anyway, I noticed some unusually powerful Armenians (this was in High):
https://img392.imageshack.us/img392/...0000005hc3.png
Is that normal? I've never seen them crush the [remnants of the] Byz so easily and quickly, the pic is taken in 1240-1245.

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Depends. If you started the game in Early, then yes it would be very unusual for the Armenians to even have survived that long, let alone prospered. They generally get eliminated by the Byz, Eggies, or Turks within the first 20 years or so.

If you started playing at the beginning of the High period, though, then the Armenians have a better chance of getting somewhere. None of their three original neighbors are as powerful, and the Crusader States seem to have a tendency to be friendly towards them.

My favourite minor faction is the Crusader States in BKB. OK, they're not that minor as they have three provinces, but they have great units and are surrounded by some pretty tough factions (Eggies, Turks and the Byz). I just love using the "trident" strategy against the Egyptians: making two feint attacks and one real one. Then you usually have the Golden Horde popping up in that neck of the woods.

9definitely georgia on bkb final, late, there uzbek heavy cavalry are great i now rule the whole of asia minor africa and the balkans:beam: :egypt: :yes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Martok

the Crusader States seem to have a tendency to be friendly towards them.

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as do the mongols

the armenians have things pretty easy at the start of high. The trouble starts when the crusaders run out of ayyubid lands to pinch, then its Didebul and Armenian Infantry vs Templar/Hospitler/Teutonic Mounted + Foot Knights, backed up by Turcopoles (pretty brutal enemy tbh)