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damn them! ... im playing an expert campaign as the french and im getting attacked by the swiss the germans the english the spanish and the italions .. i can handle that but the damn pope (who happens to be my ally) keeps excommunicating me and launching crusades. what is wrong with them all ! :furious3: i can only take on so many at a time this is killing me :wall: does the pope get on everyone elses nerves as much as mine?
Kill him.
I've only played Normal campaigns so my knowledge on how he acts on other difficulties is very limited. However, I suggest you make peace with a couple of factions ASAP and then concentrate on taking out the Pope and preparing for his eventual re-emergence.
When the Pope asks you to stop attacking a Catholic faction for ten years, then do so. You may now attack any and all other Catholic factions with impunity. If you already got excommunicated, just assassinate the Pope. Destroying the Pope "faction" is a bad idea. He re-emerges with a big army (or so I am told). I always concentrate on the non-Catholic factions. It's safer.
Send assassins until the guy loses it assassination is the best way of getting rid of the pesky pope :smash:
I've discovered that a nice alternative is to burn him at the stake with a Grand Iniquisitor. The GI won't die if he fails, plus I find the thought of the Pope being convicted of heresy deliciously ironic. ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Darth Revan
Otherwise Mystic, I would recommend taking Agent Miles' advice. Pick one Catholic faction to attack to draw the Pope's warning, and then you're free to war with the other Catholic factions for the next decade without worry. I know some MTW players find said tactic to be an exploit--and in all fairness they would be correct--but I personally am quite okay with that, given how unbalanced/unfair the Pope often is in regards to excommunications.
Nice tip didn't know you could do that but executing the pope for heresy sounds kind of weird:dizzy2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
I confess I didn't know myself that you could do that until about a year ago--I'd always tried using regular Inquisitors to try the Pope for heresy, but with no success. It wasn't until I happened to run across a post here sometime last year that I discovered you could fry the Pope using *Grand* Inquisitors. Since then, I've been merrily burning his Holiness and haven't looked back!Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Revan
(Although it's still sometimes fun to just march into Rome & the Papal States and lay the smackdown on him. ~;))
whats making me mad is the fact they are attacking me! on my lands i was fighting to keep toulhouse and he warned me... im catching hell for defending my country. and i dont have the military to even make it near him and no assassins strong enough. this is bad . really bad :(
Well you always have the choice of sending your king on a suicide mission, thus cancelling out your excommunication. That's a drastic measure to take, however, and I would attempt it only if you're truly desparate.
Is there anywhere you can train Grand Inquisitors, Mystic? I ask because I think they could really help you out right now. Just one or two of those guys could make the Pope go away faster than you can say "witchcraft"!
Have to confess, I have only ever tried the assassination and invasion methods....but I like the GI idea....can't wait to try it out for myself. Last campaign (as Sicily) I had heaps of 5 and above star GI's roaming Europe burning everyone and everything....but I never tried crispy-ing up the Pope....
I wonder...wouldn't killing the pope generate some fairly negative characteristics for the general in charge of the conquering army? I mean 'Pope-killer' must have been a pretty serious vice in medieval Europe; even now it's probably not the best route to making friends and influencing people. I haven't quite got my head around the full ramifications of the vice/virtue system in MTW, but have noticed that when I've been excommunicated my generals' acumen and command ratings tend to nosedive after a few turns (maybe it's coincidence, maybe I just didn't read that manual closely enough).
Having said all that, 'Pope-killer' might be rather a good thing for your assassin - he could dine out on that for the rest of his career. I suppose what I'm trying to ask, in rather a drawn out way, is this: do any special vices/virtues develop as a result of bumping off the supreme pontiff, which don't occur when other world leaders get the grassy-knoll treatment?
Any advice gratefully received...
No special vices and virtues for getting rid of the damn Pope. Not only that, but your assassin may not even get a star, as the Pope is easy to assassinate. Since my 5 star GIs have 0% chance to burn the Pope, and my 3 star assassins get a 50% chance, I prefer the latter.
Analysis of kill probabilities noted - thanks Kavhan....another point of curiousity - it appears that even if you send an army of inquisitors against one specific faction, they never take offence....why is this? Is it that they are assuming that the state has no power over the church and that these inquisitors are therefore operating independently to fry all of their generals?
Whow! This is ironic, to say the least! I've got to try this one when I get back to my campaign. I'm reaching the final stages on World Conq. mode and I'm saving the best for last (i.e., the Pope). It may be more interesting to see him burn at the stake rather than die in battle... BOWAHAHAHA!!! :whip:Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
It would be even more interesting to learn the details of the heresay charges - perhaps similar to those negative vice and virtues your generals get on occasion: "He seems to prefer the company of young boys rather than beautiful women." :laugh4:
First off, welcome the Org Calgacus. ~:wave: As Kavhan already said, there's no specific vices/virtues attached to assassinating the Pope....which I admit I find unfortunate from a gameplay persective. ~;)
As for vices & virtues in general, probably the main reason they're hard to understand is that they're not all applied in the same way. Some are applied randomly (such as Silver-Toungued, Killer Instinct, or Sybarite), whereas others (such as Scant Mercy, Skilled Risky Attacks, and Great Builder) are a direct result of your king/prince/general's actions. The trick is to figure out which ones are which. ~:rolleyes:
I think you've pretty much nailed it, bamff. It's always been my impression that factions don't react to inquisitors since they're church officials, and that (theoretically, at least) they're not under the control of a monarch.Quote:
Originally Posted by bamff
I wish that actually was the case, as Inquisitors in the hands of other factions are simply overpowered--even more so when they're from my faction. ~D (I admit I find the fact that Medieval 2 is restricting them to just the Papacy to be an improvement.) As it is, I try not to train more than a handful of them, including Grand Inquisitors. They're almost unstoppable once they've got a couple heresy convictions under their belt.
A general note on using GI's to burn the Pope: Even with Grand Inquisitors, it's going to be hard to convict the Pope of heresy if they're rookies--their odds will be greatly helped if they have at least a couple stars first.
Well, I have two grand inquisitors - training more I find ubnfair, and I do not need more - thanks to inquisitors there are only two catholic factions left in my current campaign, not counting myslef and the Pope. One of my inquisitors has three stars, the other 5, and he already burnt several princes and at least three kings. When I try to use them on the Pope, who excommunicated me btw (which does not bother me that much), they get a 0% chance. I know that they are not going to do anything on the first try, and the only result will be that the Pope will become devout or something like that, further decreasing the chance of burning him. i play MedMod, maybe Wes has done something on purpose there. Anyway, considering that his worthlessness has 0 stars, my assassins have much better chances, and I guess I will stick to them, even though I would have loved to see him burn.
Here is an off topic question. I had two of my heirs married to Danish princesses, and I was allied to the Danes. I used my GIs to burn all their princes and their king, and yet, when I did it, they became all rebel and I did not get a single province or an army stack. The same happened with the Sicilians - I had just married a heir to their only princess and after burning their royal line, they simply disintegrated into rebels. So the questions is, does inheriting only works if your current ruler is married to another faction's princess? And does it matter how the other faction is eliminated - do I need to just burn the heirs and leave the king to die naturally, i.e. does the use of agents such as GIs and Assassins diminish my chances to acquire lands through marriage?
Finally, using inquisitors and Grabnd Inquisitors usually leads to the Pope making a small donation to one's kingdom. He has done it even while excommunicating me at the same time, and I was not fighting and non-catholics presently. It does not happen often and all the time, suually once per game for that particular reason, but is a nice bonus if you are early in your campaign and you need cash.
Gah! My apologies, Kavhan; you made me realize I should've mentioned another point about using GI's to fry the Pope. As is sometimes the case with kings and generals, you may have to try the Pope more than once. I often find the first time I put someone trial for heresy--particularly if they have 4 piety or higher--they get that trait that adds more piety. ("Newly Devout", maybe? I forget what it's called.) The second time I try the target, he gets the Atheist vice, and his piety drops like a rock. By the time I make my 3rd attempt to convict my target of heresy, their piety is generally low enough that I'm successful.
The important thing to remember with heresy trials--and this applies no matter who the target is, or which type of Inquisitor you have (regular or Grand)--if at first you don't succeed, try again (and again, and again, and again....). ~D
Of course, you'll always come across a few generals/kings/Popes in the game who manage to avoid the flames no matter how many times you try to burn them. The majority will succumb eventually if you keep at it, however. (Yet another reason I feel Inquisitors to be overpowered--there's no "double jeopardy" to prevent them trying the same character over and over.)
As far as Inquisitions being related to Papal handouts, I haven't notice anything specific. I still use Inqs and GI's relatively sparingly, though, so it may be that it simply hasn't happened to me often enough to notice a correlation.
That's long been my suspicion, but I would be lying if I said I'd been able to prove it. I freely confess that while I have inherited other factions' lands, it still happens so relatively seldom that I never remember to keep track of whether the now-dead faction's princess was married to my king or to one of my sons. ~:rolleyes: :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
As long as you don't eliminate another faction's rulers with the sword (i.e., going to war with them), you have a chance of inheriting their lands once their family dies out. So you can use assassins and GI's to your heart's content. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
Another random thought on upsetting or unsettling the Pope....honestly, I'm not obsessed!
We have discussed attacking him, assassinating him, trying him for heresy - but how about sending spies in to unsettle his flock and spark rebellion? My own experience with spies seeking out the "dirt" on opposing governors/faction leaders has always been that spies are pretty useless. What sort of valour would a spy need to be useful against the Pope?
Just covering all the agent bases (or trying to at any rate).
Thanks for the welcome, Martok, and for Kavhan's helpful reply. This thread has certainly made a few issues clearer. MTW has made me very suspicious; I always imagine that the AI is doing something extraordinarily crafty to undermine me, so I'm glad to hear that the Pope can be got at with (relative) impunity.
I seem to remember from the one time I set the Papacy as a playable faction that the game was a bit buggy. Does anyone know of a patch/code/other which has made playing the Pope a more stable?
Cheers.
I am doing that in my current campaign, though the pope has a decent army now and is my enemy (after trying to attack me). It's around 1340 (have to replay, buggy file). The Spanish decided to attack me, I spanked one province and got a warning.
The spies help in keeping his land unsettled so that he will be less likley to try and attack me once I lay off the Spanish for a while.
I've never been able to get Papal lands down below about 90% loyalty, even with my meanest nastiest spy, no watchtowers, no papal counter-agents, assassinations every few years AND a full-blown inquisition happening. It takes a lot to make the Pope's subjects unhappy. Any other faction suffering that onslaught would have rebelled into civil war every year...
I concur - even with 2 points of influence the bugger seems to keep his subjects happy. I should try invading his lands with spies and high valor alims or Orthodox bishops (and maybe even pagan shamans in a mod) just to see if I can change the religion in Rome and thus spark some discontent. I very much doubt this will work though. In the BKB mod the Bulgarians (and perhaps a few other Balkan Orthodox factions) could build Heretic Priests (Bogomils), but they had absolutely no effect whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by macsen rufus
One factor that hasn't been mentioned in heresy trials is the province zeal. The higher the zeal is the easier it is to succeed. One consequence of conducting a trial with your inquisitors is to raise the zeal, thus making subsequent attempts more likely to succeed.
Also it doesn't take many attempts before the target gains the vice 'atheist' which reduces his faith trait, even if he has already gained the virtues 'devout' or 'god-fearing'.
Finally, the big disadvantage with assassins is that border forts and defensive agents catch them before they get to make their attempt.
For the full Rufus(TM) Pope-on-a-leash strategy, see this
I've only suceeded in burning the pope once and that was with a 4 star GI. In my current campaign I'm playing the Byz for the first time. Definately is nice to be free from the pesky pope BS. I've succeded in knocking the pope faction off 4 times now... actually it's about time for him to reemerge again. Yes he always shows up with huge armies but I have such a inconnected network in my empire that an army in Georgia can be in Naples in one move. The trick it leave simple units to hold down Rome, he reappears jump on him with everything you can muster.
It also helps to keep only a minimal garrison in Rome & the Papal States. The size of the Pope's re-emergence armies is partially dependent on the size of the garrison stationed in the province where he reappears. (And in truth, that applies to pretty much all rebellions & re-emergences in the game, not just the Pope.)
So if you keep only a modest garrison when the Pope re-emerges, you can simply retreat to the castle and then move in your main army from right next door. ~D
Yes, but in this case you have to fight an offensive battle rather than a defensive one, which is usually easier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
An off-topic question: does the amount of troops kept in Khazar around 1230 have a direct effect on the numbers of the Horde, or is it always a standard one? Also, has anyone figured out what causes the Horde toa appear in two or three provinces instead of just Khazar?
I suppose that's true. I guess I just have a personal preference for crushing the Pope in an offensive action (as opposed to a defensive one). ~DQuote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
Depends. If you have vanilla MTW, the size of the Horde is more or less the same size every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
If you have MTW/VI, however, then yes, the size of the GH is definitely affected by the size of your garrison. So don't do what I did the first time playing VI, which was to stick 8000 troops in Khazar--I got a Horde appearance of over 36,000 men. (Whoops!) ~:rolleyes:
No idea. If anyone has, I don't think they're talking. ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul
Deleted
A number of players have said that after defeating several Papal re-emergences (no exact number has been given), he simply stops reappearing after a while. Whether this has anything to do with the Pope's "homelands" being converted to Orthodoxy (or Islam, as the case may be) is currenly unknown. It's certainly a possibility, though.
One other thing I noticed... Every time the pope had reappeared he had support from the Spanish... so much so that I got tired of the Spanish jumping on me everytime my back was turned that I sent out my teams of 5 star Syrian assassins and took down every member of the royal family. The Spanish empire fractured into rebel units and these provinces were divided between me (Byzantium), Genoa and England. The Spanish reappeared again but the damn fools did it in a province were I had an assassin... (slice) end of the Spanish again. It's now been 70 years since the Pope last sat on the throne... an you know what I don't shed a tear over his absence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Martok
I'm certainly finding that the Pope and his generals are a pretty spineless bunch. They're not afraid to invade your provinces, but they don't seem to have much appetite for battle. Even if they have a significant advantage in numbers, and have a lot of high quality unit types (as re-emergent Popes usually do), they often seem to quit the field after you fend off their first attack, and don't bother bringing on their reinforcements...
(They did get the better of me once though, when I lined up in what I thought was an impregnable position atop an escarpment, only to have them appear behind me with twice my numbers. I should probably have anticipated that, but it was rather annoying! :oops: )
I never attack the pope until the high or late periods, and usually then only as a bit of revenge. It's too much fun fighting off those crusades. I'm currently playing a Turks campaign, just waiting for them to come. My next move will be Constantinople, followed by Egypt, which, with Georgia that I am fortifying at the moment, will secure me the three province choke point region. I expect that sometime soon the Pope's "Crusade against the Saracens" event will occur. I'm not sure what that does, if anything, but it's usually only a matter of time after that when the French, Germans, Italians and Spanish are on there way... and my forces are waiting for them.
Hehe! It's alway fun to have huge battles with one or two crusader armies, Byzantines and yourself. If I don't take Constantinople (as the Turks) the crusader armies tend to camp there, and I always wait to attack if there are multiple crusades on the way. I think this is the only reliable way to have more than 3 full armies in one battle simultaneously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manco Capac
Am now alternating between burning the Pope with my 5-star GI and assassinating him with my 6-star Guy of Gisbourne, trememdous fun! :laugh4:
None of the new Popes ever seem interested in a cease-fire though, which is annoying as I have a Crusade I want to kick off at the Egyptians...
Am I the only one who feels any sympathy for His Holiness? Yes, he is a real pain, but consider his objectives:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystic
1: He must try to keep Catholics from fighting each other. This is best accomplished in the long run by allowing one power to adsorb all the others. However, in the short run, no power can adsorb the others without waging war. This objective is self-contradictory.
2: He must keep the papacy as strong and independent as possible. This means having lots of little Catholic factions, none of which are strong enough to dominate the papacy. This contradicts objective 1.
3: He must try to reunite Christendom, which means pursuing good relations with the Orthodox church. He also needs to Orthodox Christians as a shield against Muslim expansion.
4: He must try to reunite Christendom, which means encouraging Catholic factions to take over Orthodox territory. This contradicts objective 3, and probably objective 2, because anyone strong enough to shatter the Byzantine Empire is a threat.
5: He must encourage crusades to beat off the Muslim threat, and to keep Catholics busy fighting someone other than each other. Also, Catholic expansion is good. However, conquering all of Islam requires a Catholic superpower, which contradicts objective 2.
6: He must pursue all these contradictory objectives using nothing but AI, which is really just a machine without a brain.
:juggle2:
None of this stops me from stamping out the Pope whenever it suits me. However, it does make it easier to be patient when he threatens me with excommunication for resisting invasion. After all, he has got to bear in mind objective 2.
In my opinion, the best way to deal with the pope (If you are playing as a faction in his neighborhood) is to take Rome away from him very early in the game, but try not to destroy his army there. If you let the bulk of his army (Urban Militia, vanilla spears, etc.) retreat to the Papal Estates, then he'll be stuck there supporting that army on about 200 gold per year, rendering him militarily ineffective very soon (he can't afford new buildings or more advanced troops). You will get excommunicated right off the bat, and if it's early in the game you probably don't have assassins or GIs yet, so it helps to try to time this move so that it occurs when the pope is over 60 years old. Or you can just wait until you have a huge army built up, and take advantage of your excommunication to unify your borders against other Catholic factions.
The next step is to leave some very small and harmless Catholic faction within or close to your borders. When you are about ready to go to war with a Catholic rival, send a couple of small raids against the small faction until you get your agression warning. Then you're free for ten years to attack the real rival.
Ok, I have a slightly different problem with Papa at the moment. For the last few decades I've been happy to leave him with one small stack in the Papal States, and apart from that and Sicilian Malta I am the only Catholic power left in the game so he is pretty irrelevant. My problem is that I do now need to slap the Eggies down a bit, and I fancy chucking a Crusade in their direction, but obviously I can't without Papal approval.
No matter what I try he won't grant me a ceasefire (which leads to me getting cross and occasionally assassinating him). What can I do, if anything, to get a ceasefire (or an alliance, if that is what I need to Crusade)?
Well there are a few ways, but none of them are ideal. Personally I wouldn't bother with the crusade. I'd just put together a large enough force and send it in. Anyway, if you do need to gain a ceasefire from the pope:
You could try losing control of the provinces around him (Naples, Rome, Tuscany, Venice etc :dizzy2: :no:), and thus losing contact. After one year an automatic ceasefire will occur. The problem with this is that those provinces that you have lost control of could be the source of faction reappearances, in fact this is highly likely. Personally I wouldn't do this.
Another way, would be to wipe the papacy out entirely and then let the papal states immediately rebel. Leave it there in it's rebel state, eventually the papacy will reappear there (fingers crossed they don't also turn up in Rome, watch the loyalty there. The papal reappearance force will be a large one, prepare for it.). This is the time to declare your crusade against the Egyptians, then if you wish you can invade and wipe out the pope again, or at least weaken him until he's no longer a threat.
I suspected there would be no easy answer...
I'll just clobber the Egyptians the old fashioned way!
I have managed to get an auto ceasefire by invading the Papal States with an overwhelming force so the Pope retreats to the castle, then I withdrew from the province the following year whilst the Papal army was under siege. I didn't expect it to work, but it did :2thumbsup:
I'm always playing as Germany, I am useally a Warmonger, and that seems to irritate the Pope(not that I care:laugh4: ) if I could, I'd demand the Pope recalls the excommunication on me, unfortunetly, for the Pope, I useally have the LARGEST army on the continent, what I find funny is the Pope demands crusades on me(though no one has the guts to invade me cause I'z da biggest and da baddest)
The Pope is as annoying as Hell, but that's why he only lives a few turns.
I just tried this, but I messed it up. The Pope didn't retreat from my overwhelming force, so I faced him in battle. I did everything I could to simply chase his army off the battlefield, but his junk units engaged my technologically advanced troops without regard for their worthless lives. In the end, I couldn't get my Italian Infantry to withdraw once they had His Holiness surrounded, so I accidentally captured him. Of course, the Vatican knew what a worthless scumbag he was, so they didn't pay the ransom. The Papacy degenerated into rebels, so I took the castle, razed everything to the ground, set taxes on very high, and withdrew all my troops. Now all I can get in the Papal States is an occasional "Catholic Bandits" rebellion (One of which consisted of exactly ONE mangonel crew). I really need the Pope back since the Castille-Leonese (XL versioin of Spanish) are a superpower and own much more of the map than I do. I need to get them excommunicated quickly!Quote:
Originally Posted by macsen rufus
I found a sure fire method for avoiding the Pope, and it has options :idea2: . The options are Muslim, Orthodox, possibly more if your playing a mod. Actually, I think some mods must have gotten rid of him altogether.
Hey all, after a few weeks I remembered I had an account here, and the site is telling me I haven't posted in a while, so I decided to start here as I too feel the sting of a stupid, evilly maniacal(I really hope that is a word) pope. From what I remember playing MTW is that one, the Pope usually has a golden boy, two the Pope will attack technologically, and numerically superior areas, threatens excom everytime i retaliate to an attack from other Catholics, who just the prior year were excomed themselves. So in short, the pope's of MTW piss me off, but then again, after I've taken out the Muslims, and Orthodox Christians, I go for the Pope so as not to deal with Excom when taking out everyone else.
I spent today on my new, upgraded computer playing a MTW campaign (Easy) in Early as the HRE. I took over nearly all of Europe and I was excommunicated by the Pope for attacking the Italians. I had around 100,000 Florins at the point and just kept moving stacks through the Papal lands, taking over land. Eventually I took over the Papal States for myself and did random raids on Rome for 2 more times. I then took Rome and the Papacy became a Puppet. I destroyed all buildings in both Papacy provinces and moved all troops out of them. I waited for some time to see if the Pope re-emerged but he didn't. I eventually got 60% map in 1140 or so. In the last year of my turn, my entire empire had re-emergencies, rebellions and more. I've just exited the campaign now. :2thumbsup::whip:
Burn the enemy family line at the stake then take the rebel lands after the end of the "royal" line.