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i tried to use a merchant. as is written in the description he must travel to distant lands and increase commerc & stuff. i play as a spanish and i travel with my merchant to byzantium and then to russia but no town/city,castle , anything wanted to have any kind of interraction with my merchant. i tried with allied pt trade treaty factions but no result.
so, how the merchant could be used?
You put them on a rescource and they start trading it, if you have more than 1 merchant on a type of rescource you get more cash.
Are merchants worth bothering with? The resources around England early on promised only 3-7 florins per turn - what's the upkeep of a merchant, 100 gold? Plus my merchant was "killed" by a French one early on, so I gave up on them. Any tips/experience from others?
I think erchants are upkeep-free
While playing as Scotland (och aye and jimmy lad and so on and what not) i found the tin deposites in cornwall (Southwest Britan) to be worth about 38 per turn, whole not amazeing the amount goes up with the experience of the merchant (i was getting 70 odd at 4 merchant skill i think)
And i've "heard" you get more cash if you own more than 1 type of resource (there are two tin deposites in cornwall and one in ireland)
Merchants cost 550, and their upkeep is 0.
So far playing as England (turn 88) I have around 6 merchants, all paired up in twos and sitting on the same resource in the same provinces. I have two in western france trading with wine, two in north east france trading with silk, and another two in HRE trading with iron. With each two im making about 60 - 90 florins a turn, depending on their level of experience.
I did have a guild in one of my cities that gave a bonus for two of my merchants (they both started on level four), I think it was the Theopalian (sp?) guild.
The best tradable goods ive found around England so far, is wine, tin, and silk.
but is it worth getting merchants if they cost 550 and have to be replaced after they die?
Heh, as an Economist, I find this thread compelling, but this question above is an interesting one that compels me to place another fly in the ointment of another thread...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rpkmann
If your merchant does not die quickly, the answer is clearly yes, so the main question would merely be one surrounding enemy agent action... Except...
Some may be aware there is an issue regarding "year" display and rate per turn and the relation to the aging of characters in relation to the number of "go's" or turns... CA, true to campaign promises has left the code open to manipulating this. If you alter the relationship between the year and turn , you can correct the odd Lazarus-like aging of characters, but there are conflicts that result as building is too fast and or the game too long... Although the Turk over at TWC has determined that the player characters age at a fixed rate to the number of turns, does the same hold true for merchants? If not , it would seem another issue that needs be handled if you want to correct the aging question or adjust how many years per turn go by and would also radically change the answer to the above post.
[Raises an Eyebrow quizically] Fascinating...
Al Jabberwock
ok seeing as im aussie i dont have the game yet but im curious as to how merchants work. so a few questions
1. do u send them into enemy territory or can u place them on resources inside your own borders?
2. if u place them on someone elses resource, can that faction no longer trade that resource in that province?
3. does placing a merchant on another factions resource count as an act of war?
Cheers Knoddy
A couple of good questions knobby. To expand on that
Can you place a merchant on a resource held by rebels
Does income stop if the resource is inside another faction which you are at war with.
NoQuote:
3. does placing a merchant on another factions resource count as an act of war?
Hass anyone got any idea how to improve your merchants so that they don't just sell out? My merchants always seem to be of a low value and cave in to hostile takeovers every time.
I have left a merchant on a tile close to "home" to build up experience - nada
I have sent a merchant out to the furthest reaches of the world to build up experience and valuable trade routes - nada
They all stay useless in the face of economic warfare. Anybody know what to do to make them a bit more like the boss rather than the apprentice?
I've noticed that if I leave a merchant on the same trading resource long enough (must have been 20 turns at least), he earns up to a +3 on monopolist or something.
One of my other merchants gathered +2 as a gracious traveller, by, well, travelling.
I should be careful to throw criticism on my first posts on this forum, but I really think the moderators should be more active on merging threads and so on.
This post is also about merchants, and gives som advices:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=71833
But cutting to the case, I have the same problem. The merchants cost 550 to recruit but luckyily they have free upkeep. Anyway, sending my stack of merchants all over the world, my highest income so far has been 6 florins per turn... And you don't have to be an econom to see that this won't win you the game.
According to the other thread I see a few advices:
- 2 merchants on the same resource
- Merchants guild
Advise given on the COM:
"oh btw: the farther away the resource is from your land, the more money it generates per turn
Im currently playing the english and i got a few merchants around Jerusalem and they're racking in about 80-100ish per turn, more than my merchants in england generates, even tho they have been there longer"
Econ can you get some of your dudes over there.
I seem to be playing vicariously through you at the moment. Hope you don't mind.:laugh4:
OK, I'm on it. :jumping: :whip:Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
:laugh4: A new game style: "Play by Message Board Campaign" or PBMBC. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
Merchants are definitely worth having but not in my experience in the early game. They are quite expensive at 550 and you are much wiser using that cash for building and conquest. Once you have a few secure provinces under your belt and a little disposable cash however they can rake in a tidy sum. I would advise to only start with merchants properly once you have a merchants guild. This normally gives them a bonus trait or two which increases their business acumen.
As an example i am playing with england and only started using merchants once i had a sizeable chunk of france conquered. I poured out 6-8 merhcants when i was flush and as someone else mentioned paired them up in my secure provinces where i had assasins handy to deal with any foreign merchants coming in. Particularly London for tin, Antwerp for silk and Angers for wine. Operating like this they will quickly get the monopolist traits and be boosted to +3/4/5 finance. At this point those resources are worth 30-40 florins each per year.
At this point it is not a bad amount of cash and they will quickly recoup their cost. However you can now send out your trained +4/+5 merchants to either explore more profitable reserves abroad or wage economic warfare with your enemies. The latter strategy will boost your merchants ranking even more making greater profits available. In the meantime you can replace your travelling merchants with fresh ones from your city with merchants guild helping towards the progression to master merchant guild and merchant headquarters. It may also turn out that higher levels of market like fairground or merchant quarter give a merchant boost too.
In summary during the early game merchants are a poor investment and only provide fodder for other nations to train their merchants. Once you have a secure homeland and guild however they can help reinforce your economic empire and destroy others trading as long as you are willing to give them some time to get up to speed. Definitely worth bothering with, just not right away. Build a secure empire, then strip it of resources.
You're quite a funny guy, aren't you? :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by AussieGiant
Anyway, this has become a really useful thread. In my first campaign, I recruited 5 merchants that right now are earning from 1-6 florins each turn... Had I only listened to Jimmytwohand first..
It really depends on who you are playing and what resources are near you. Playing Byzantium, there are 4 silk resources right around Constantinople (two on the east, two on the west). Even a beginning merchant was generating 30 or so florins a turn sitting on them. I've now got 4 merchants standing on all of them, even the merchants that began with a ranking of 1 are up to rank 7 mercantile now, and each one generates 52 florins per turn. This is all within 1 turns move of my capital, so how much would the silk resources around Baghdad be worth?
From the manual:
Quote:
Trade rights. Having trade rights with the faction that owns the resource a merchant is
trading increases the amount of florins generated.
Distance bonus. The further the closest instance of a trade resource is to a merchant’s
capital, the greater a bonus he will get to the trade income he will earn from it.
Good job there Econ!!Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
Report in once you have recon'd the area.
I'll be at staff HQ if you need me!! :coffeenews:
By the way Jimmytwohand...bloody excellent advice there old chap!!
Carry on Mercantiling...(I think that is another new word!)
tip: around timbouktu in Africa are some very good resources; 2 yvory and 1 gold. i play as moors and the region isnt mine yet.
the merchant that trade gold make 237 / turn and the two other that trade ivory make aroun 120 /turn
almost 500 gold/turn only with merchants
until now, almost 40 turns, nobody tried to assasinate or buy them
So thats why my merchants went from making 120 a turn round Constantinople to 24 when war was declared.Quote:
Trade rights. Having trade rights with the faction that owns the resource a merchant is
trading increases the amount of florins generated.
As England, I've maxed out my Merchants and have them all on wine resources in France and HRE. I am earning approximately 500/turn off of them.
I have also gotten the Merchant's Guild Headquarters in London, which seems (as far as I can tell) to give an automatic +1 stat to every Merchant recruited in my Empire, no matter where he is produced.
Is it the same resource or the same type of resource ? I can't seem to be able to put 2 merchants on the same resource...Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicarious
Also, does anyone knows whether it is more profitable to put merchants in foreign lands with trade rights or on one's own land (distance to capital being equal) ?
Directly, I think it's the same. Indirectly, it will work out better with the foreign merchant, providing you maintain trade rights. I moved one of my 7 finance merchants from the silk by Constantinople all the way over to the silk by Baghdad. After sitting there for a few turns, he picked up another 1 finance from knowledge of foreign customs. His profits are down now, though, since the Turks called a jihad and declared war on me.
I was just reffering to another post in this thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Spendius
When I read it now, I think he means the same type of resource not the same resource. Haven't got to check this out myself yet, since I follow the advice not to build merchants before I have a merchants guild.Quote:
So far playing as England (turn 88) I have around 6 merchants, all paired up in twos and sitting on the same resource in the same provinces. I have two in western france trading with wine, two in north east france trading with silk, and another two in HRE trading with iron. With each two im making about 60 - 90 florins a turn, depending on their level of experience.
IMHO the merchants are not cost effective at the current price of $550. When bought they are 20 years old and die at 60. In the normal 2 years per turn it is maximum 20 turns, because my mecrhants are killed much earlier. If I place them on a near by resource they make about $6 to $15 / turn.
20*$15=$300<$550
To get to a high income resource they have to travel tens of turns.
10*$30=$300<$550
I think the merchants were designed for 2 turns per year, because for 1 year per turn you will just get your money back if the merchant doesn't get killed.
~:cheers:
I think it's important to note that even if you eventually get the same nominal amount back from a merchant (550 florins), you actually incur a real loss. Why? Opportunity costs. For that amount of money, you could have put it into some other thing, like markets, roads, soldiers, etc., and gotten more out of it. So the real costs of the merchant is more than 550, because you have to take into account what you could have gotten with that 550 in the interim years. </economics major>
I find merchants to be pretty good value. At the moment, my average merchant earns about 20-30 a turn, with 2-3 100+, but they make the most money from buying over foreign merchants. My 10 valour merchant makes a fortune this way. If you factor in the costs to your opponents of losing their merchant and his revenue stream, I think it tips the balance in favour of using them.
Also, when you are moving them abroad, you can usually go from one trade item to the next, so that there isn't that many turns when you aren't making any money. If a rival merchant happens to be sitting on the good at the time, all the more fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon_Zeth
Yes, but you've also denied money to your opponents if you've driven their merchants bankrupt. That's part of the calculation, too.
Has anybody else noticed that prices fluctuate? Or maybe its just an error in my game.
As Russia, the silk near Baghdad started out at something like 150/turn, but when I loaded my game the next time, it was 30/turn. The same went for some silver resources in the HRE. It was 220/turn when I first saw it (and I was actually getting 220/turn from that resource) but when I loaded, it went down to a mere 20/turn.
Odd?
But the utility of that is intangible (while valuable), like that of having new units of soldiers, whereas the utility of getting more money is more concrete, since money is a unit of account. With said tangible utility, the bonuses can be more objective if you use something like interest rates for each building- with things like troops and bankrupting enemy merchants, it is more subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
Merchants pay for themselves. But not by standing on a resource. Standing on a resource is only useful to get them up a few levels so they can start eliminating the competition. You can get an easy 1-2k florins from buying out a rival merchant alot of times. You've also denyed the computer the income from him and made them lose the 550 investment.
But through my playing I've yet to see a resource at anything higher then 70. Does anyone know the trick to finding the really high value resources? I know trade rights increase their value but does distance to your lands do also?
Merchant skill makes a big difference. For instance, I have 2 merchants on the amber resources in Stockholm (which belongs to my ally, the Danish). The 6 valour one makes 69/turn, whilst the 10 valour makes 112. Other than these two, the highest I've seen is for the two spices in the Aleppe region (which I own). My 10 guy would also make 100+ there. My capital is London.
On the recruitment price, Rufus the Cunning (my current King) is a master of both spies (-30%) and assassins (-25%), which means his agent recruitment is massively reduced. I pay 275 per merchant when he's around.
Folks be MUCH more aggressive with Merchants:
Use them to actively attack the opposition merchants - it doesnt even matter if they are on a trade resource or not - if you take them over you get a LUMP SUM from "acquiring" their business e.g I've just taken out a French level 3 merchant who was wandering near to my borders, he wasnt on a resource - but acquiring his business netted me a lump sum of 1100 florins (this is on h/vh fwiw).
So nab the other guys businesses then trot back to you ownl ittle resource, or go on extended walkabouts taking over any merchant you find and can "assimilate".
The ENTIRE equation for Merchants, as to whether they are worth their 550 florins cost, is completely re-written when you use them aggressively and only hog a resource when they've got no available targets to take over.
And bear in mind that that 1100 florins wasn't much, I *think* i netted over 6k from acquiring an Egyptian merchant in Antioch (didnt remember to keep ane ye on the previous balance, but it was certainly plenty of dosh)..
Has anyone noticed whether having a merchant on a resource increases trade in the corresponding city ? That would make sense and would not require micro management at least...
playing english h/vh
I've posted this methodology elsewhere but it got lost at the tail end of a thread. Hopefully not breaking too many rules by making it it's own thread to properly highlight the technique for using merchants effectively and ending the debate over their worth. :smash:
(original post follows)
- - -
Folks be MUCH more aggressive with Merchants:
Use them to actively attack the opposition merchants - it doesn't even matter if they are on a trade resource or not - if you take them over you get a LUMP SUM from "acquiring" their business e.g I've just taken out a French level 3 merchant who was wandering near to my borders, he wasn't on a resource - but acquiring his business netted me a lump sum of 1100 florins (this is on h/vh fwiw).
So nab the other guys businesses then trot back to you own little resource, or go on extended walkabouts taking over any merchant you find and can "assimilate".
The ENTIRE equation for Merchants, as to whether they are worth their 550 florins cost, is completely re-written when you use them aggressively and only hog a resource when they've got no available targets to take over.
- - - -
After posting the above I went and did some experimentation by using all of my "senior" merchants to attack the foreign merchants around high-population areas such as Italy using 11 merchants and attacking in the same turn (to make it easier to check results).
Using merchants with 3 levels or more I racked up over 20,000 florins (yes, 20K) in a single turn with 7 successful take overs and 4 failure. (Or to put it another way - I made a 14,000 florin profit AFTER the cost of the merchants and in just one turn)
After the initial wave I pulled the merchants back to allow the AI to bring out more merchants and moved my own to other parts of the map to hunt down other merchants.
By the end of 10 or 12 turns I netted in excess of 35k from mercantile take overs alone.
From continuing mercantile warfare it appears that the money from merchants falls outside of anything to do with factional money - so even if a faction is bankrupt the merchants still have large amounts of money that can be taken from them by acquisition.
Similarly when you lose your merchants the money does not come from your own coffers.
The amount of money is determined by the mercantile (acquisition) rating of the merchant and is not fully dependent on the resources they may, or may not, be sitting on. (Somebody may want to experiment to see if acquisition money is higher when a merchant is sitting on a resource as opposed to just wandering around the map).
Too produce merchants with higher acquisition ratings the following may help:
Get a merchants guild as soon as one is offered to you (you only need one as it seems that the effect is faction wide).
Place the merchant on a local resource in order to gain a rank or two, the money from this is low as most people have discovered but its better than nothing at this stage - just regard it as training.
Move merchants to a foreign resource to gain ranks such as "knowledge of customs".
Don't leave merchants on a resource a long way from your capital (other side of the map) for too long as they start to pick up negative traits.
Use a spy or two to scout out foreign Merchants and make a note of where they are (The ai tends not to move them around very much. although they do move around a fair bit in their local area, especially if there is a juicy merchant target of their own within the "radar" of their faction troops/agents)
If you see foreign spies, diplomats or assassins in your local area, especially near merchants, kill them off ASAP - they will encourage foreign merchants into the area in acquisition bids.
It *appears* that if you clear out all the resources in your local area then foreign merchants will stay away form the area (don't repopulate the resource with merchants) - hence the reason to scout out areas a few turns away, attack, then withdraw. (leaving them their also tends to draw the attention of assassins)
So there's a fair chunk of micro-management in there but it is most assuredly worth it. What I've been doing is attacking in a wave then moving the merchants back to pet resources to allow the AI to re-populate their merchants and resource spots. It cuts down on having to manage them every turn but is a great cash reserve if you get strapped for florins.
20k in a turn was a beauty of a result, and not typical for a turn (obviosuly you wont always have the number of viable targets), however 1100 florins a bash for taking over a wandering low level merchant who came into radar is something that is almost management free and definitely pays off the cost of the merchant in one turn, with some profit.
So, try it: get aggressive, rake in some florins. :2thumbsup:
Very nice posta! Thank you for this tip.
Cool :) I've been fairly passive with my merchants and worked out that at 40 florins on a resouce a turn they will pay for themselves before they die anyway and I normally take out merchants that come my way pre-emptively to protect my low level merchants.
1100 florins makes a fair difference to that, I wondered where I got extra cash from sometimes :)
Excellent stuff Darkmoor_Dragon.
Thanks for stating your difficulty.
I'm making 599 bucks a turn with my merchants in the holy lands
Excellent post, Darkmoor_Dragon
You should post that as a separate topic and it should be stickied.
I think you forgot: with a high-level merchant you can destroy other merchants, seizing their funds. When my level 10 merchant seizes the assets of level 5-8 merchants, I generally get around 1.000 - 2.000 florins. That way your merchants will have bring in their recrution cost quite easily.
If you choose to monoploise one resourced (e.g. wool, wine or textiles, you will find, that even low-level merchants will suddenly bring in 20 to 40 florins in one turn.
Also, enemy merchants run away from your high-level merchants: For example when I moved my level 10 merchant into northern Italy, seized the assets of one merchant, four other merchants in the region (all low-level) packed their things and moved away. This way, you can easily disrupt the trade of enemy merchants, especially in areas where merchants tend to mass (northern france, Holy Land, Northern Italy).
Oh it *is* possible to make decent per-turn amounts, especially on easier difficulty levels where I believe (in caps) that the amounts in revenue are higher.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maizel
But my point was rather that the money you can gain from per-turn income on a resource pales into insignificance against that you can earn via "acquisition*
How much, does one imagine, would be made by acquiring your stated merchant?
Which would be something very interesting to find out: 5K, 10K? More?
One hot tip to save loads of money on recruiting of Merchants (or other agents as well) is to check if one of your family members get a discount for recruiting agents. If you are fairly active with spies and assassins it seems that the espionage line trait easily triggers for your faction leader. In addition there is a fairly good chance that the faction leader will aquire the Spymaster retinue. Both of these give a discount on agents recruited, and the discounts stack.
My current faction leader has a Spymaster retinue which give 20% discount, and a Master of espionage virtue (lvl 3 espionage I think) which give 30% discount. In the city where he is the governor I can now recruit merchants for 275 dough, that's half the price :2thumbsup:
I've been playing my first test campaign as England I'm at about turn 100 and getting ready to start fresh on VH/H. I've found that sending teams of merchants out as two's works well.
I originally found that my merchants where being taken over far to often, so I began teaming them up with spies to act as look outs for enemy merchants, now I have a heads up before they reach my merchants. I've also found that resource camping only works if your merchants are a great distance from your capital. Playing as England and having merchants camped in Gaza I was gaining some 4000 Fl a turn per merchant.
For merchants closer to England I just bounce them from resource to resource taking over other merchants when I can seems to work okay for me.
this takes a little time but once you have an good idea of the entire campaign map- you can literally monopolize a resource by placing a merchant on all or most of the spots. Example- silk is a fairly rare commodity- once you have found all the places that silk is produced- put a merchant on every silk "deposit" and welcome to the profits of global commerce- I had already played a lot so I knew before starting my most recent campaign where silk was- I chose the turks specifically for their immediate economic prowess- after around fifty turns I had enough merchants and had stragically placed them around the map- building many of them up on crappy resources to increase their likelihood of success- Then I took over the worldwide silk trade in one fell swoop- It was something to do- I prefer battle to economics but enjoy
God has low self esteem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson
Actually that's a moot point. Spending money to cripple one faction is counter-productive. The end result is that while you have lost x*550 florins to destroy his y*550 florins (give or take the ressource profits), every other faction but you two have lost nothing (you might even say they've won something, since they may very well have spent the same kind of money on ports & trade houses (generating even more cash) or stacks of knights and the like ("gamble" expense - a successful conquest might net them much more cash longterm than a bigger port, but there's always the risk of not being able to use those soldiers for, or worse yet lose them).
But the fact that winning a merchant face-off gives insta-cash is *very* interesting, and it completely trumps that issue.
But now I wonder : if you lose your merchant, either by having your attack fall on its head, or the enemy merchant attacking yours and winning... do you lose a lump of cash ? Or is the cash generated by a hostile take-over generated out of thin air ?
I havent gotten the game yet. Its on order but I did want to ask a question after reading this thread. I read wheresome people suggested putting two merchants on a resource. Is there a limit as to how many merchants you can place on a resource?
Thanks,
Skott
Ok, to summarise my case for using them:
- Merchants cost 550 florins, absent any discounts.
- They age, as all characters do, at the rate of 1 year per 2 turns, so can be expected to survive, absent other factors, for ~80 turns.
- Therefore they need to make at about 7 florins/turn to make your investment back, assuming they survive to die of old age.
- Over the course of their lifetime, the likelihood is that they will make significantly more than that, unless they stand on a very low value resource that can be obtained close to your capital. They should also gain financial prowess from just trading, so an older merchant should make more money than a rookie.
- A hostile takeover of a rival faction's merchant can net 1000s of florins. Try not to "attack" your allies merchants too much though: it'll annoy them, affecting your relations (*).
- When travelling between high value resources, or going after a rival merchant, try to find resource to temporarily trade.
- If there is more than one instance of a resource, try to monopolise it.
- Protecting new merchants by having them trade resources in safer parts of the map allows them to valour up, and gives them a chance to survive against merchants from other factions. Try to train them in a settlement with a Merchant's Guild, if you have one. Also look for governor's with agent recruitment discounts.
- Merchants can be used as strategic weapons, costing your rivals money (the 550 florins to train) and preventing them for gaining access to profitable markets. Economic warfare.
From a economic pov, Merchants make a great deal more sense than other agents. You don't make a lot of money from spies or assassins, and they cost you a lot more in the long run.
Having said that, the title of this thread is now somewhat misleading though. You can possibly make 20,000+ florins in one turn, but it would be highly unlikely that you could sustain that for more than a few turns at the very most. Regardless, a just one successful buyout will pay back your money for that agent, and potentially many more than just the one.
From a strategic pov, I think the case is strongly in favour of maxing out your meagre Merchant limit. I suspect this is the reason why there is a limit in the first place!
BTW, the manual doesn't say it's the distance from your capital to the specific instance of a resource that your merchant is standing on that counts. It says, "The further the closest instance of a trade resource is to a merchant's capital, the greater a bonus he will get to the trade income he will earn from it." So if you are standing on a gold resource on the other side of the map, it won't be all that more valuable (if at all) than one closer to home if your capital has gold in the next province. Of course, if it has gold in its province you get nothing.
From what I've seen and heard, the top resource appears to be gold, followed by silk, silver, spices, ivory and amber. I guess the new world resources may be pretty good too, but I haven't got there yet. Bottom of the pile would seem to be tin, wool, fish, grain, sulphur, coal, and lastly, and certainly least, furs.
(*) Actually, I do tend to go after all merchants, regardless of their faction, simply to help my merchants gain experience. However, if I want to maintain good relations, I often give back a percentage of the cash (usually 1000 florins) to the faction via diplomacy, which helps smooth things over and may help improve your diplomat.
Merchant activity has NO effect on faction relationships - clearly stated in the manual and visible in the campaign game due to total absence of any "relationship" changes around any merchant activity.Quote:
A hostile takeover of a rival faction's merchant can net 1000s of florins. Try not to "attack" your allies merchants too much though: it'll annoy them, affecting your relations
It has been my experience that it does affect your relationships: I often go from reasonable to so-so relations with the Danish after acquiring 2 or 3 of their merchants. If it doesn't, then it would seem to be a bug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Manual p34
It may also affect your reputuation, although mine is bad anyway as I tend to use spies and assassins a lot.
Untrue - read p34.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmoor_Dragon
Indeed - apologies to all - that'll teach me to rely on my ageing memory!Quote:
Originally Posted by econ21
(Although I've never had a diplomatic incident when acquiring other merchants - can anybody confirm they have?)
After reading this thread, I decided to start taking my merchants seriously, and spent a turn making about 7 or 8 of them. Most of them were bought out after a few rounds (think I had two left after two more turns), so I'm wondering what's the easiest way to get your merchants those first few finance levels? I had been just letting them sit on the nearest resource, but that seemed to just leave them vulnerable to other roving merchants.
Is there an easy way to cheese through those first few levels? Maybe I just had a bad round, or my neighboring factions just have too strong a foothold with their merchants by now in my campaign, but on page one of this thread there was another poster describing the same situation, but saying it was because it was too early on.
Think I'll do another turn just creating merchants, but this time pair them up with assassins and try to keep a close watch for other merchants, but odds are my assassins will all die trying to clear out the opposition.
:help:
Scout out an area that isnt populated by AI merchants (using your spies) and send them there, or send them to the UK. I've never seen an AI merchant in the UK unless it was english/scottish, so if there are none there you may be safer.
Certainly though merchants seem to suffer the same issue as beginning assassins - they really struggle to get off the ground. once going theya re fine, but that first level is often fatal.
Is this actually true? I've just started a games as the Scots, plumped my newly minted merchant down on the local dyes supply in the Edinburgh region, and he's happily reporting that he'll be adding 10 florins a turn to my coffers. ~:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
The French declared war on me the turn after I put three of their merchants out of business. But relations were poor between us anyway. Other than that, as I say above, I've linked worsening relations with various factions to me bankrupting their merchants. True, it could have been for other reasons but -- given what the manual says -- I think there are solid grounds for believing it does have an effect. The reputation thing is entirely speculation on my part though. Perhaps I'll test it out in this new game: I'll refrain from using spies and assassin, and only use economic warfare and see what happens to my reputation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmoor_Dragon
Well, this is all very confusing. Started up a new game as the Scots, VH/VH, trained a merchant and toggled the fow off. First odd thing, as I mention above, it that my merchant can trade the dyes in the Edinburgh region for 10 florins/turn. Odd. Even odder is this is more than I can get for any of the local dye resources in other provinces (generally 7 florins/turn). So not only can I trade items available in my capital, I get more money from them? ~:confused: (*)
Other observations: if there is more than one resource in a province, the base (single) resource value appears to roughly double. For instance, fish resources would give me 4 florins/turn when there's only one, but 9 when there's two. Interestingly, when there's 3, it's still just double.
Another oddity is that the distance to the closest instance of a particular resource didn't seem to be having a great impact on the value of the resource. For instance, the nearest ivory resource to Edinburgh is 170+ squares away, yet with two in a province, each resource was only worth 21 florins/turn, which is half what I get from a single silver resource only 25 squares away from Edinburgh. Similarly, amber, which is also quite close, was trading at 11 or 21 florins/turn for 1 or 2 resources respectively. Which suggested that the "distance from your capital to the nearest resource of that type" mechanic wasn't working as I expected.
So I loaded up my old English game, where I have a much greater spread of settlements, to find that the instant I changed my capital to Antioch (from London), the value of merchant trade changed significantly (as the manual suggests it would). Odd. Even stranger is that, yes, my merchants trading silk close to Antioch went down a bit, but my merchants trading in Europe shot up by far more. From earning 800 florins/turn, I was earning 4000+. Fair enough says I, obviously the choice of capital does matter. Strange thing, though, is that I have to switch it back to London because of public order problem. When I do this, the numbers in the mid east rocket up as well, again to for significantly more than I was getting previously. No idea what is going on, but it must be a glitch in the system of some sort. I doubt just changing your capital back and forth was intended to increase your merchant revenue 5 fold...
Which all means I think I know less now about the system than before I started. Gah! Has anyone else observed this odd fluctuating merchant income behaviour? Is it a bug? It would seem to be on the surface.
(*) I suppose it's possible that, due to the lack of any trade agreements and that I'm at war with the Rebels, this suppresses the value of trade resources in their regions. Might also explain some of the odd behaviour I mention further down the post too. But this is all unsubstantiated handwaving.
Think I nailed a big commerce/merchant bug, that may very well be what's causing so much confusion regarding what ressources are worth what when.
I had a 6 finance mogul on his way to Venice to sit on that gold ressource in Zagreb. When I first considered that trip and wether it was worth it, the value given when glancing at that ressource was 188. 188 gold each turn, when I'm poor as dirt ? Sounds good. On your way, little fellow.
A couple of turns later I reloaded from autosave, because my best princess had gone from 6 to 1 (1!) charm in one go, thanks to a botched negociation which not only destroyed her +4 experience bonus, but ALSO saddled her with a stalker (-1 charm, -2 security). I'd been carefully building that hottie up for the longest time, and was understandably a bit miffed. Reload autosave, redo the same nego, this time is works (might be a comeback of the "AI forgets diplomatic relations/plans/state after a reload" bug from Rome).
But the interesting part is that, checking on my merchant, I noticed that each and every ressource I knew on the map had switched back to their base values. Especially that gold nugget, which was now worth a mere 40g a turn. And here comes the best part : when I switched my capital from one city to another, then back to the original Leòn, the gold ressource again was worth 188g.
So, in short, what I believe happens is that. You have to give it a nudge.Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I'm not sure wether it's just a display bug (ie it shows up as 40, but it really gives you 188), nor if it corrects itself after a couple turns playing like the diplo eventually did in Rome (I just rushed in here to tell you guys ;) ). I don't know if it affects the AI either, which would be quite severe a bug then, considering the AI probably doesn't switch its capital around so often...
Anyway, take that into account when you're doing tests and trying to understand how those pesky ressources work : always hop your capital right after a reload.
Well, if the numbers I'm getting after shifting my capital are the real deal, then merchants are an absolute goldmine. For instance, my 10 valour merchant is trading amber for almost 500 florins a turn, and even my novices are doing pretty well, well above the 7 florins needed to get my money back.
Bump
For some reason I can used the merchant aggressively along with assassins yet my merchant squads still get completely wpied out by another faction. In my Spainish campaign I pretty much monopolized the resource in Iberia region + France region by taking out/taking over several French/ Port/Moor merchants from the beginning(Assassination does sometimes help if you get assassin's guild early), and most of merchant are about 4~6 lvl but then 2 Moorish merchant about the same lvl came in and literary ate my merchants as breakfast and everything I throw at them (including Assassins, I even have a lvl8 assassin gunning for them and yet they kill him WTH!).
One of the Moorish merchant actually got pretty high lvl hust by eating my merchants to a point where my merchant's guild had ask to be hostilly taking him over.(I did failed that mission since even I got a Master's Guild the merchant I chum out still no match for him)
It seems like for some reason even your merchants progress steadily , the AI always have a merchant who can just beat the crap out of yours without any trouble...@@!!
Capital London:
Level 7 Merchant on gold in Timbuctu - after loading the game, Florins per turn = 100
Switch Capital to Nicossia - income 500 per turn
Return Capital to London - income 800 per turn
SAVE game, -> RELOAD
Income per turn 100 florins.
HOOOOOOOOGE BIG FAT JUICY BUG
Well spotted Kobal2fr!
Looks like the business version of the RTW siege bug has been found.
Yes, nice to see you guys are getting the same behaviour as me. I beat my games to death to crack the mechanics, so I'm often worried that strange behaviour is a product of that. I think the actual credit goes to the guys over at TWC, at least they've had a merchant bug on their list for a bit. We get the credit for the workaround I believe.
Anywho, Timbuktu is a vertiable gold mine (literally: it has two), as well as two Ivory and one slave resource. Gold (20) and Ivory (12) are two of the high value resources, and two or more resources in the same province appears to double their value. Stick high valour merchants on them and you can make 1000s per turn just from these. It's also hidden away, only accessible from a narrow stretch of desert roughly between Marrakesh and Algiers, so the resources are pretty much free of bothersome foreign merchants. Get your guys there now!
I noticed the same thing in my game: not that dramatic, but still. A wine resource in France (me playing as England) went from producing 32 Florins to producing 177 florins after I switched the capital from London to Rhodes and back...Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkmoor_Dragon
Just wondered, which one is the correct number for income from these gold mines? The 100 Florin per gold mine or 800 Florin per gold mine (after switching capitals around...).Quote:
Originally Posted by therother
Depending on your merchant - something like a level 6/7 merchant with a capital in London should earn around 700 per turn.
There's two gold mines down there mind you...
so expect to earn upward of 1400 using 2 good merchants.
If you save/reload with those same merchants your income will drop to 100 per turn each.
I'm pretty sure that the 800 florins is the right one. After a reloaded game, resource value doesn't seem to be affected by where your capital is in relation to that resource type, which is what the manual tells us should happen. This was actually very useful for working out the base values for each resource (every cloud and all that...) After the switch, though, resource value appears to take capital location into account. I thought that merchants were good value before I realised the merchant income was reduced to just their base value when the game is reloaded (*). Now you can make silly money from them; certainly explains why there's such a strict limit on them (one per market).
(*) At least this is my theory: the problem seems to be that the game forgets to recalculate the "nearest resource of that type to your capital" metric after reload and then scale each resource appropriately. The workaround is to manually tell it to refresh/recalculate this when switch your capital around.
Its the higher values that are "correct".
Although as to whether the values themselves are correct is another matter altogether.
Another good suggestion for resource nodes is silk. There are two silk nodes near Baghdad and two near Nicaea. They can generate wonderful income for a Western European faction, if you use high value merchants and cover both nodes in both locales. I'm getting 500+ per node on the Nicaea spots, just for my Egyptian faction with a closer capital. Has to be much higher for a faction with a more distant capital. The trick would be getting your merchants there safely by ship without getting sunk by pirates.
I've now got 5 Merchants down in Timbuktu (my capital is London):
3026 Florins/turn from just one province...
Has anyone considered that your Merchant revenue might be tied to trade buildings and roads as well. It says on the map that roads increase trade, I think that means it raises your Merchant Profits as well. In Sweden I had people trading Amber for around 25 per. Then I built up on Sweden using the cheat feature just to check some things. I built trade centers, wharfs, paved roads, etc. When I checked back in on my Merchants they were trading for 100+ per turn. I haven't decided what causes this effect.
3 possibilities.
1. The infrastructure of the settlement of the resource.
2. The infrastructure of the settlement where your Merchant was trained.
3. The infrastructure of your Empire in sum.
Maybe someone could check up on this for us . . .
That sounds like you moved your capital at some point.
I was making around the same on amber, then did the trick, and suddenly I made almost 150. At that point I felt cheated as my old and grumpy merchants of level 9-10 were all getting close to retirement, and had been at that level a long time (killing other merchants early levels them up fast). Suddenly a rookie bested their overall trade in a few turns.
Nope, no capital moving.
I didn't do anything other than process_cq a bunch of buildings in Sweden. I've played several time since then and the Amber is still at the high rate.
I'm beginnning to reach the conclusion that merchants are tough to use in the early game and easy money in the late game.
I'm playing as Spain and I own and can produce merchants in Timbuktu and Alexandria. I have packs of 6-7 merchants around the gold, slaves, spices, ivory and silk that are in SW Africa, the Nile area and Baghdad. When one dies, I just replace him locally. When a competitor shows up, I get multiple shots at taking him down and can quickly replace any merchants I lose. I'm making 7000+ per turn with relatively little effort or micro-managing.
I gave up European trading centuries ago. More competition and less value.
IRPhydeaux -- I think you might be right that Merchant revenue is tied to trade revenue.
I noticed in my campaign yesterday that the same merchant trading Sugar in Damascus makes 15 fl/turn vs. 28 fl/turn trading Sugar in Antioch. I guess there are a number of factors that could affect this, but my guess is that it's merchant buildings -- my building in Antioch has been almost all economic except 1-2 public order buildings, in Damscus I've concentrated on religion and militia.
I guess the other factors could be:
- Antioch is closer to my capitol (But not by much.)
- Antioch has a higher population
- Antioch has a shipwright, Damascus is landlocked
- There are other merchants in Antioch, but not on the same resource.
But I'm thinking the most likely answer is that Antioch has a Warehouse, Shipright, paved roads, a Merchan'ts guild and a market, Damascus does not.
Thoughts?
BTW, I really like that the addition of guilds and agents for economics and religion really incentivies you to specialize your cities. Makes the builder aspect much more interesting!
Certain resources (perhaps all) have single value and double value. Timbuktu gold is double, while Zagreb gold seems to be single value.
A lot of the amber in Poland and Russia also have different values, and the value of the amber in Denmark and Sweden is certainly different too.
It is all over the place, so you can't really be sure until you have made some experiences as to what is double and what is single.
OK, that could account for it. (Single vs. Double resource) I can't remember the exact values the Damascus vs. Antioch resource traded for, but that likely acocunts for it.
I'm at work now and without my map -- where is this legendary Timbuktu, Africa somewhere? And do you all reccomend capturing it or just sending experienced merchants down there? I'd be hesitant to do that, the Moors seem like they always have solid Merchants.