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Lets start a discussion on balance issues. Though I have the game I got no time to play MP as yet, but I have heards some rumours about spanish musketeers, weak spearmen etc. ~;)
Please post only well identified issues with specific units, also please give examples.
We can start with unit sizes. If I quote |Heerbann|_Di3Hard
Due the lag issues this might be better solution atm, but I prefer normal unit size. Even if there is no lag I would not go above the normal unit scale.Quote:
I played some games with the Elite clan together. They used small units if they played 3vs3. In my opinion, these size is too litte.
What do people feel about basic archers (i.e. not armour piercing/crossbows)? In a game I've had 4 peasant archers shooting their entire ammo into the back (though not always, the engagement kept turning) of dismounted feudal knights and had about 7-12 kills a piece... just seems a bit too weak to me, I know they're very basic archers, but surely they should do a bit more damage?
Most people seem to agree that muskets etc. are too strong.
Peasant archers are peasants, so if you liken them to their infantry counterpart then really you'd have to say they should be very weak.
I hope in a patch they make Spanish Musketeers more expensive, and tweak w/e other balancing in late era because I've played a couple of 1v1 late eras today, HRE (me) Vs Venice which I won a close victory and HRE Vs England (me) which I lost, both were very enjoyable, theres just something about the gunpowder which I really like, however I admit High era is best due to balancing.
I usualy play 10k matches and I almost don't use any upgreads on this florin level.
Regarding era's it seems to me that hight (we could add early too) era is the only one more or less nicely balanced. This are first impressions so far.
i've noticed archers/xbows outrunning my heavy cav. even if they're heavy they should still get caught by cav. could be operator error, but i usually can catch a unit of arrows even with gothic knights or camels in vi...
have not had m2tw yet, but logically no foot should be able to out-run a horse? even if a horse is tired..Quote:
Originally Posted by t1master
Speeds have been changed yet I still see men on foot managing to out run cav
.....Orda
well technically a dude with no armour on at all might be able to outrun a tired horse that is wearing metal plates and has a 1-ton knight in inch thick plate on his back
:sweatdrop: have never seen a real horse in person (except at the race-course), but was just wondering, were horses used for heavy cav usually had better stamina rather than speed? I wonder if a horse will just walk when it is tired even if the rider forces it to run? i mean.. horses aint that smart right :sweatdrop:Quote:
Originally Posted by ][GERUDO][Mojoman
I believe normal men will get really tired relatively quickly (like sprinting 400m) when running away from a horseman, and out in the open probably will be just sitting duck?
Unit size normal is perfectly fine with me... lag issues are a patch concern i believe.
Archers is a tough one cow, these pavise crossbowmen arent what the stats suggest... Anyways, dnt half the units in this game have AP ability? it was something that was seen as unique and important in BI... here its just normal.
Musketeers are the most rediculous thing i have seen in tw since the elephant artill... should i stop now? :D How can a unit with such range and power be seen as valid considering the timelines we are playing in. A unit of British redcoats would be happy to be that accurate over such a long range, it just boggles the mind... so yes monarch thats a must! to be adjusted.
Aonar i agree with u on high era being best. Early era is pretty standard across western europe as most factions have replica unit lists. It also appears that such giants as the turks/egyptions/moors are very weak at this level. In late the balance again goes bad as musketeers come into play which ive already stressed i hate... High is good because u can consider every faction as being strong. Western nations have their knights and crossbows, eastern factions have the powerful archers, heavy infantry to match the west etc. Everything at that era from what i can see can be good...
Most horses for medieval heavy cavalry would have been bred for size i wouldve imagined... no mongol ponys gonna take on such a challenge and manage to catch a skirmisher unit.
In response to cheetahs post on "weak spearman", i think the balance is perfectly fine... in the charge spearman cannot withstand knights but when bogged down and surrounded cavalry fall like flies which i think is accurate. Pikes only do better because they have the ground to absorb the force of a horse whilst a man cannot do so on his own...
Mounted knights NEVER wore "inch thick iron plate" to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by ][GERUDO][Mojoman
You're talking about something that would weight probably HUNDREDS of pounds!
From what I've seen of historical issues they were mostly mounted on "clydesdale type" horses (european) and no, a bowman on foot is not going to outrun that animal no matter what.
The cav/inf speed ratios should have been adjusted for more differential when the skeletons were redone for M2TW. They will never be adjusted now because of the amount of work involved. In the old engine, the walk, run and charge speed of every unit type is individually adjustable in the unit stat file making it possible to fine tune the dynamic balance of the units.
I think cav need more speed. Especially the lighter units like mounted sergaent.
how can you say that high era is the most balance one when there are not pikes? How you can outstand the overpowered cav charge without the only unit that can match it? I wonder if I am playing the same game as you :embarassed: . Imho the only balanced era is the late one with no musks.
Hopefully the patch will address things like that
.......Orda
The only way to find this out is that we meet in lobby and try this out. So far spears counter cavalry good enough for me (I admit that sometimes I back them up with a cav unit)..there could be something I'm not aware of it - yet.:sweatdrop:Quote:
I wonder if I am playing the same game as you.
I've seen many people using option ''all'' instead of era and you are able to chose between many variety of units.
I prefer all periods just for fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aonar
spears do nothing against cav charge
On high era just 2 factions have pikes (france and scotland) so imho high cannot be a blanced era. Late and/or all eras are the most balanced ones.
Not all factions on late have pikes.
In addition you can't really say its the most balanced "as lnog as theres no muskets", because if you need to take out a unit that many factions have to balance it, I doubt you can call it the most balanced.
but more than 2 right? Maybe more than 3-4-5-6...lets say 10 ok, but surely not just 2 :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Monarch
You can ban a unit in late/all era (musks), but you cannot add a unit (pikes) in high era for the factions that have not them. I hope you catch my point, and thats why imho late/all is the more balanced one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Monarch
I'm agree with Paolai. The lack of units in early/high able to counter cavalry charges is worrying, but it's just a first impression.
I still need time to play and see if there is any way to counter cavalry charges, because I find them very devastating (40-60 kills in normal size, maybe too high).
Hi Mordred ~:)
Sadly there is just one way to counter the cav charge: pikes, spears are a joke. This is a really important iussue, and I wonder how CA could make tha cav charge soooo strong. How they tested it? :skull:
What I had in mind is that I use 2 to 3 spear units as a waste units on opponent cavalry, supported with my own cav units. That is what I've had in mind when I've wrote that ''spears are good enough for me'', but when we are talking about spear units sustaining cavalry charge..I agree with the words mentioned above.Quote:
spears do nothing against cav charge
First of all spears are much cheaper than cavs, so if you lose your spear but your opponent losing his cavs it is a good deal for your. Second, the assumption that the only way to counter a cav charge is a solid block of spears might not be entirely correct. What about a cav counter charge or some manouvering?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolai
Please also note that:
a, The cav charge to be succesful some special conditions have to be meet. Cav should be facing the target and it should have a clear path to it.
b, Practically the charge is the only weapon of cavs. As soon as they get pinned down they die. (with which I somewhat disagree but in the light of rtw cavs I understand these changes)
About spears... cant you just usually just move your spears so the cavlry have to lift up their lances to gain the charge bonus again. Then when the cavlry are busy trying to reform you charge and they die. Oh and btw cavlry are supposed to be powerfull against all but pikes so I dont see what your complaining about although admittably the swiss pikes got eaten by any heavy infantry... (havent played m2tw unfortunately but know a lot about the period)
I'm part of the SCA (society for creative anacranism or something like that). We are a group of medieval reinactors. After maybe 1 months training a man can be taught to run faster then a normal person (I.E. untrained peasent) wearing 50kg of armour. They take a while to get up to speed but the whole idea that light infantry can run 2x as fast as heavy infantry is ridiculas (so long as heavy infantry are trained [like knights!]). I heard the estimate of about 100-120kg for a fully armoured foot knight and 250kg for a fully armoured man and his horse. I don't really know that much about horses but heavy horsemen should be able to run at least a bit faster then light infantry at least for a little while. The only time i could see light infantry running faster then heavy horse is if the heavy horse have just done a 100m charge but if the horses have rested for at least 2 minutes they should be able to outrun light infantry for a while at least (should be enough to go behind your own lines again). I dont really get where the whole idea of hes wearing metal armour therefore he can only run at 0.5 metres a second is coming from... sure they may not be able to run distance but by god a man in armour whos trained can sprint.
I still don't have the game, but hey, it has never stopped me from commenting so far :dizzy2:
When I read cav counter charge against cav, I feel like you actually acknowledge there is a balance issue :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
I got to say it looks like both features are likely to make the game more interesting and more challenging. It's the kind of comment that makes me want to buy this game (now, if you can also mention a lagless 4v4...)Quote:
Please also note that:
a, The cav charge to be succesful some special conditions have to be meet. Cav should be facing the target and it should have a clear path to it.
b, Practically the charge is the only weapon of cavs. As soon as they get pinned down they die. (with which I somewhat disagree but in the light of rtw cavs I understand these changes)
It also probably means that it will increase the difference between good players that are able to make good use of cavalry, and not so good player... Skill threshold might be higher...
However, among good players, able to make very good use of cavalry charge, the question remains: how can you skillfully stop or deter a cavalry charge with non cavalry unit?
Louis,
To some extent I've used double lines of infantry, so the first line gets hit and the second line attacks, but it's not an ideal solution at all as cavalry can pull back. I would agree that cavalry charge head on is far too strong in that there isn't really anything apart from pikes that can withstand it. I've seen too many games that involved wiping out an entire line of infantry with a cavalry charge from multiple units and then proceeding to fight the cavalry behind who get the morale penalty from routing units. Yes cavalry needs a clear line and needs to be facing, but it's not that hard to accomplish, even easy for frontal attacks.
The cav charge is so strong that you can kill about 3/4 of a unit spear just charging without loosing 1 cav and this is imho ridicule. The cav charge is so strong to seems bugged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
Righ ok, then I assume that you are agree with me: spears are a joke. To counter cavs charge you need another cav charge. And is it good for you? This means that on high era we will have again 10 cavs vs 10 cavs. Good :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
No m8, you have spears to counter cavs, swords to counter spears and cavs to counter swords. This is what I mean for balance, I wonder what does it means for you: Cavs to counter swords, cavs to counter spears, cavs to counter cavs, very good isnt it? :inquisitive:
And is it difficult? You charge only when you have a clear path, and at least for me it is not so difficult. In some weeks you will see more and more 12 cavs army, beleive me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
No, the charge is ONE of the cavs weapon and absolutely not the ONLY! Thier job is to attack on flanks and on the back. Do you really use the cavs only to charge??? Are u sure? Are you serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
Well yeh admitabbly i havent actually played m2tw but ive played the demo and ive played mods that are like it (I never play vanilla RTW) but I think half the problem with lots of guys getting wiped out is about unit sizes. From the looks of the demo low detail on m2tw is medium in RTW and so long as you have shaders off it works reasonably well. So i dont see the lag concern. At least i could probably play huge 2vs2 or large 3vs3. Also whats wrong with using cavlry to counter cavlry? I think you guys are thinking too hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolai
You have Enemy Cavlry-Allied cavlry-allied infantry
--------------EC
-------------AIAI
--------------AC
THEN
-------------EC
---------AI------AI
-------------AC
Now the enemy is pretty screwed. If they charge your infantry then they will get charged by the cavlry and or get sorrounded and if they go for the cavlry then theyre gonna get sorrounded.
Although i heard that unit speeds in m2tw are too slow but then thats what mods are for! Perhaps MP will just need a good mod to be balanced.
If you wanna see some other good medieval battles check out crusades mod for BI.
Btw the above tactic is pretty much what the romans did against elephants (except they didnt have cavlry to counter elephants).
And if you hate cavlry so much play forest maps. They cant charge at what they cant see.
I do no hate cavs, but in MTW2 their charge is too strong (overpowered) thats all.
Spears are too weak.
Pikes are good for their job (vs cavs) but just 2 factions have them in early/high era= these eras are not balanced.
(but) Pikes are too strong vs Swords.
Musks are too strong.
Archers are too weak.
I mean, what Palamedes has tested? Why (if) he needed help he didnt asked for it?
It'd be nice if CA ran open MP beta tests like several other developers do, the MP community may not be large but there are enough dedicated players to make it worthwhile imo.
I would definitely agree with Paolai's list of balance problems. The game itself isn't that far away from being very good online if these are addressed (reasonably quickly). ~;)
The swiss mainly used pikes and halbedeirs (the pike formations being similar to the macedonian ones) both were effective vs horses (pikes more so I think) but pikes also werent as effective vs sheilded infantry. As shown by the spanish infantry this was not invincible as it could be beaten by decent sheilded infantry. Therefore pikes shouldnt beat decent sheilded infantry (my knowledge based on the medieval art of war short ed.).Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolai
Apart from all else. Half of the swisses fame was gained by their good morale and excellent tactics and their fast movement speed and organisation. So they should (at least pikemen) get fast walk speed and high stamina rather then all around 1337ness vs infantry. Halbedeirs are another matter though.
That is what the gameplay is supposed to be. It creates a combined arms gameplay which is much more interesting than a gameplay where you figure out the best unit and use lots of them. In addition, the costs of the various unit types have to be adjusted to reflect the true value of the unit on the battlefield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolai
Great to see you guys have started the battle simulator balance discussions. Just to get you up to speed I am yet to see any issues posted we aren't fully aware of, so if possible please pretend we care and know what we are doing if you dont believe that to be true :dizzy2: . That way we can move forward and get stuff done. :2thumbsup:
Best way to sum up the situation: It's a bloody huge game and unless you mind paying twice as much and/or waiting twice as long not everything will be spot on for every player. We have to set priorities and work down through the list. Just about every issue listed in this thread are the current top priorities. So from my end I am just happy to know what we felt were the next most important issues are the ones being raised now. I would be concerned if we were being hit with requests we never saw coming.
What I suggest is that you post threads titled "Can you explain?" and start with these issues i.e. "Can you explain Cavalry", "Can you explain Muskets" etc. Then direct me to the threads and I will engage you guys in an explanation of the current status, what we are thinking to do, and then find out what you guys think so we can get it spot on. Again to emphasise we cant address every requests known to man :wall: so please work together and set a priority list and lets address them together from biggest to smallest.
You can contact me at the clan site: www.brethrenclan.com or at work jturnbull@creative-assembly.com.au
Hope to hear from you soon,
Jason
My Concern really isn't the Cav, Jason, since IMO, the cav isn't that strong.. The Musketeer units and Handgunner units are way to Strong. I played serveral games lately where people get 4-8 gun unitts, mabye 5 musketeers and 3 handgunners, and they killed my archers like crazy, while they only lose mabye 2 units and that it.
I hope you guys can fix these ploblems in 1-2 patches :-) , and not 3-5 like some people been saying :-(
I disagree... Id rather not be playing the grand strategy equivelent of starcraft with only 3 units. It should be more complicated then that take RTR for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
You get a choice of having a core of...
Phalanx (harder to reposition line and move slower)
Legion (move slower+dont have long spears like phalangites do)
Barbarian infantry (usually moves fast and causes fear but has lower defence stats and lower morale but higher attack)
Horse archers (very trickey but you can get away with no losses if the enemy has no ranged units)
Then you add in unique units, elephants, cavlry and archers/slingers/javelin throwers to the equation and things get complicated but in the end it works.
Now i know medieval times werent quite that complicated but surely theres more to battles then simple spears<swords<cavlry<spears equation?
Now as said previosly i havent played m2tw but I know about the period and what other ppl are saying. Now what would make sense is.
Your standard swords/spears and some hybrid archers are holding troops and make up the main battle line.
You have archers firing at important targets.
In terms of ranged stats and ways things work...
Longbowmen should have long range and reasonable rate of fire and arch projectory and should be able to effectively attack highly armoured knights.
Crossbowmen should have slightly less range and a more flat projectory and a slower rate of fire.
Normal archers should have problems with units with (metal) sheilds and or heavily armoured soldiers. Crossbowmen with pavises should be all but immune to them.
Pavise crossbowmen and longbows should be about equal with longbows having greater range and reload speed but pavis crossbows having greater ranged protection and perhaps melee skill.
Now from what i heard guns pwn all archers... thats unhistorical... they were mainly used for their ease of training and fear factor.
The way guns should fit in is their pretty innacurate at anything but short range but likely to kill and very scary when they do. Longbowmen should be better then gunners in general except for causing fear. Although gun militia should be more effective then archer militia in general with minimal gains in performance even when their elites. They should also have pretty slow reload.
So for the most part guns should be used for causing fear and doing a bit of 1 shot damage at close range. None of this pwning all archers shite.
Now ofcourse changes are gonna annoy people somehow and its usually not a good idea to annoy people if your a corperation but I think that someone at least should do something similar to what i just said.
Anyway what do people think of this model?
Spears are too weak = give them a bonus vs cav charge, or a penalty to a cav that charge a spear
Pikes are good for their job (vs cavs) but just 2 factions have them in early/high era= these eras are not balanced. =give to the spears vs cav charge a bonus or a penalty to a cav that charge a spear
(but) Pikes are too strong vs Swords. = give to the sword a bonus vs pikes, or a penalty to the pikes that fight a sword
Musks are too strong = range is too high, change that and not more.
Archers are too weak = give them a little armour piercing.
This is if you want realease a little and FAST balance patch.
If you need help for tests PM me, I dont wanna money, just a better game.
Thanks for dropping by the MP forum Palamedes
It is reassuring at least, to hear that you are aware of the issues raised so far.
I will start a new topic entitled "Can you explain..." as you requested. Please feel free to comment on any questions raised there. Interaction is the best way to pinpoint any adjustments required to achieve the best gameplay and I am sure we would all appreciate developer involvement
......Orda
Yes it's more complicated than that, but you have to get a basic relationship working before you can build upon it. In Samurai Wars, there are 3 RPS systems working across a set of 14 unit types all of which are useful. The gameplay is highly complex. Just look at some of the Samurai Wars replays I posted if you don't believe me. There were fewer useful units in MTW with its 100 unit types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkarbiter
It's certainly more complicated than Starcraft because TW has fatigue, morale, various unit movement speeds, various combat resolution times for different matchups, effect of slope on combat, morale and movement speed, line of sight for individual men in ranged units, vacuum physics ballistic model for projectiles, various armor levels, weather effects on combat parameters, charge bonuses, flanking bonuses/penalties, outnumbering bonuses, squeezed too tight combat penalty, robust statistical model for combat and more.
I think still it's too soon to ask for balancing. A week or two is not enough time to stablish if muskets are too strong (and in which circumstances are too strong), of if pikes are far better than swords and swords need a boost vs pikes.
First of all, we should try to understand how game mechanics works. I have the suspect that something in charges is broken, but I'm not sure. At the moment good charges are powerful, not only for cavs but also for infantry, which can make 20 kills charging (medium size). Stats are not an useful guide to know which unit is better than others. We still don't know anything about the hidden stats that makes a JHI defeats varangian guards, having worse at/def stats. I don't know how powerful is armor piercing, or if it's worth to get units with armor piercing Vs armoured units or not; still I can't find why spears are better vs cavalry than swords, because my feeling is that they perform in the same way...There's a lot of stuff to test, and I don't dare to advice what needs to be changed yet.
Regards.
not sure if 3/4 is too much, but i had a unit of armoured sergeants going down to 15+ men after received two cav charges (almost simultaneoulsy). the cav were probably down to 35+ each before w/drawing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolai
imo spear in TW (not sure about historically) isnt a cav counter, more like a cav deterrence; and to fight in h2h. I'm not familiar with history, but were the pike invented just for the cav? sounds funny to me considering they can never attack the cav. Pike looks more like a reinvention of the phalanx, a unit good at holding ground vs not only cav, but other infantry? Shouldnt they be decent vs sword/axemen?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paolai
To me, the spear needs less training than using a sword, so is cheaper, not as deadly in single h2h (unless they trained like Jet Lee).. not sure if historically can one withstand a cav charging.
So to counter cav, is to use another cav. And manoevure like Cheetah mentioned, whereby you protect against / deter the cav with spear from hitting certain spots.
But cav should not be able to rout a decent h2h unit which is not engaged, fully prepared and ready mentally for a single cav charge imo. so far for my games m2tw is realistic in this aspect.
:bow:
Agree totally :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by CeltiberoMordred
Fixed all the bugs and lag issue in the first patch. Make 4v4 playable is utmost important. But is CA willing to support the community with multiple patches like STW? or just a one patch thingy?
:shame:
Also agrees totally!Quote:
Originally Posted by CeltiberoMordred
I think still it's too soon to ask for balancing. A week or two is not enough time to stablish if muskets are too strong (and in which circumstances are too strong), of if pikes are far better than swords and swords need a boost vs pikes.
Perfect unitbalance for all units in this game is not what will ultimatly determine if it is a multiplayer hit or not. MTW was not prefectly balanced in many veterans opinion and still it hit the spot! There are other factors that should be looked into with at least as much effort as unit balance.
For instance I just started playing a little Mark of Chaos and its remarkable how they seem to be able to get the units very clear and nice from far away which seem very hard for totalwardevelopers. In short better overview is wanted.
Logfiles and replays, anyone have checked if these things makes sence?
Do the controls give that perfect feel as at least I felt I had in original MTW, so far my opionion is no. Handling groups is more clumpsy and im not sure the units and groups do exactly what I tell them and when I tell em. For instance if I have a group of archers and give them a groupcommand to aim for a new target will they all obey?? I think I have seen that they dont, correct me if wrong. It seem better then RTW (delay gone??) but not apar with MTW.
Morale is not presented in numbers along with other stats?
Exact unitbalance (whatever it means) is imo secondary to exact many other things.
Are we happy with all other things?
Of course I agree unitbalance should be discussed but it gotta be impossible to have tried everything allready and tried enough many times to know for sure what should be done.
Kalle
The swiss beat every army except a spanish all infantry army of men with sword and sheilds (swashbucklers) but for the most part they were anti cavlry. Historically yes they were described as being similar to Macedonian phalanxs. The other main reason why the swiss were so successfull is because of their organisation and training. So they should be near invincible to cavlry from the front and pretty effective to unsheilded units (but unless anythings changed im pretty sure sheild is just the same as defence skill so thats impossible to program). So for example where a 2h swordsmen might be good in melee against the average person and a man with a sword and sheild is worse the man with the sword and sheild would be better agains a swiss phalanx.Quote:
Originally Posted by tootee
P.S. The average non cavlryman in the medieval era wasnt very decent!
Also agree to focus on the basic issues to get a decent multiplay.
MTW balance sorted itself out by playing, despite its imbalances.
Players just didn't use a lot of units, in the end it came down to using a variety
slighty bigger as the number of units available in STW. Which is ok.
So focus on biggest exploits, bugs and unit behavior not supposed to happen.
Aye.Quote:
So focus on biggest exploits, bugs and unit behavior not supposed to happen.
one word from me to the swiss pikes:
pike formations are rather not offensive units. its rather that the enemy wont come in 3 lines of pikes. what pikes can best is just to stand still an block a piece of field into a single direction. though slowly walking forward they'll push most of units just away, as everyone tries to avoid getting nto the pikes range. getting onto pikes frontally, theres only 2 handers and shields, but, even with a shield it is quite difficult, as most shields dont cover lower legs as well as the head.
afaik, in switzerland, the halberd was more often used as the pike (at least thats what i hear in all the museums here in switzerland :D ). a very common way of halberd formation was, not really as in the game, that the second line held their weapons vertical, ready to let their halberds crush on every enemy that had managed to come between the halberds of the first line, and, at the same time blocking high attacks of the enemies long weapons. as the first line was hacking especially on the enemies legs, this was a tacitic wich is very effective against infantry an a bit less against cavalry (but there also very effective).
one other thing that made swiss mercs famous was their loyalty; as most of them were not fighting for glory or money, but had just escaped the everlasting lack of food in switzerland, not actually beeing ambitious but rather searching for a place to survive.
narf... why did you have to mention the swiss pikes... this isnt what i wanted to write.... : /
actually, imo, balancing is great so far. there really is no overpowered unit: -ie. spears only cost 2.5 less than decent cavalry... 5 levy spears beat easily 2 feudal knights....
-musketeers have actually quite a slow rate of fire imo and cant shoot through your own unit (yes they can but my pikes only held one volley of my muskets before they ran off... *g* ;) ), whereas you can hides archers behind cheap units with shields (ie. levy spearmen ;) )
-artillery can have great impact but only hits seldom and is quite expensive
-pikes are good against h2h units but very vulnerable against ranged attacks and very slowly moving in formation,
and so on...
it's true that heavy infantry is getting less and less useful with guns and pikes, but thats just the way it was in medieval times ;) , and muskets were cheeper than bows (and faster trained), that's just how it was
what i have noticed so far:
-musketeers seem to have a really long range (this can really bug sometimes)
-musketeers have awfully long to change lines in volley fire
-an issue of ai (though its probably the wrong thread ... :P ): when commanding big groups the commands sometimes arent assigned properly or dont seem to work at all.... i have to choose the group, ungroup it, assign the command and then group them again... speaking of ai: the sieges bug is known (can get extreme lags as well as a totally crappy ai) ?
cheers :D
Spears and archers aren't that bad, use archers to disrupt the formation so you can prevent their cavalry/heavy infantry from getting a 'perfect charge', then your spears can kill all their horses. Archers aren't bad, they just aren't the uber kill all Pharoah bowmen of RTW; their purpose now is not to kill, but to disrupt enemy formations just before the clash of arms. Since infantry can kill almost 20% of an enemy formation in a perfect charge, disrupting their formation is very, very crucial.
Hey Paolai, havent seen u in the lobby yet :D
I wouldn't like a game with that kind of gameplay. I like non-linearity. Whether that's the storyline for an RPG or the balance in a multiplayer game. Starcraft did this so well, which is why it is one of the most played multiplayer games in history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
sorry, but what do yo mean? non-linearity? the post you quoted talks about "balancement" which means that every unit has a sense and a use on the battlefield. Something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by resonantblue
spears<swords<cavalry<spears
is this non-linearity? or is it linear, therefore boring? so lets have supercavalry that beats everything and end to all cav armies? Is it this what you mean?
Guys remember that we are talking about Medieval times. High is era when knight charges decided about battles. It has been stopped in late, mostly due to english longbowmen, swiss infantry and czech tabor.
But what is really annoying into mtw 2 is that husaria does not have bonus vs phalanx and armour piercing bonus :) Into reality they had.
yesterday i try an all cav army in a 2vs2, but the host put 15k each. I had 8 heavy cav and 12 lighter cav(hobilars x 6). Our two opponent had a balanced army, were moving grouped. It was a quite easy victory. Charge after charge i have breack the ennemies. Sure it wasnt 10k, but it give a hint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by }{Huscarls}{Barrett|L|
me too havent see you yet ~D
Barret and Cow, plz help me here!
People are understanding littel by little that I am right, but maybe they need also other voices cause you are both nice and talented players. I am sure also you have my same feelings about the imbalances that I have mentioned. Lets try to have a better game.
As long as palamedes is aware of these threads im sure he can make his voice heard and the patch can take care of ure worries ;-)
ok lets wait and hope then.
Personally I don't see it as important what happened in history, no one knows that much, one persons fact is anothers fiction. The nobility that fought on horseback wanted all the glory, whether they actually gained it or not, so it was recorded that way.
In the game one stationary specialised anti cavalry unit (that doesn't fair that well against infantry) should not be wiped out by one head on charge from one heavy cavalry unit. Otherwise there isn't much point taking anything apart from cavalry and I'd rather have a more interesting game.
The other issues that I think are important were as Paolai mentioned:
Pikes are too strong vs Swords.
Not quite as major, but why should so cheap units beat so expensive infantry so easily head on? Yes I know how to beat them and phalanxes in RTW, but I never felt them that ideal either...
Musks are too strong.
Simple one that most people agree with. ~;)
Archers are too weak.
I assume Paolai means the same as me; I'm not referring to crossbows that are quite effective, but the standard non armour piercing units. At the moment, there isn't an advantage to taking them over crossbows given a choice. Archers fire a little quicker than crossbows, but do lower damage and have no armour piercing so they're so much weaker against armour, so all that happens is they run out of ammo after not killing much, even through shooting in the back. I think their attack should be boosted by a couple of points, so the basic damage is the same as an equivalent crossbow (who of course will still have armour piercing, so will get big bonuses against armour). After all why would an arrow hurt an unarmoured unit any less than a crossbow? I think this should give standard archers a slight advantage over crossbows in a shootout with their slightly faster rate of fire, so it's not such a simple choice which one to get. Also it would help to kill horse archers a bit quicker, so make cantabrian a bit more of a necessity.
Thats one of the problems with RTW code :(. Heres an example... say a unit has 10 armour and 10 sheild. A crossbowben firing from the front needs to worry about 15 ranged defence. While an archer needs to worry about 20. A crossbowmen firing from the back only needs to worry about 5 and a archer still needs to worry about 10. Making this better requires a lot of balancing.Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilisticCow
Yes, but that's against armour, I was suggesting the increase in archer attack so that they're a better unit to use against unarmoured units, such as other archers/crossbows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkarbiter
Alans and Jinites are too slow. And these shooting cav are the hell, you cannot hunt them because, they can shoot also while they run away. I my opinion, if they can shoot while they run away, they shouldn't hit so many hunting cav. That cannot be. While they flee, they cannot aim any target.Quote:
Originally Posted by UglyandHasty
Look at all of you: Suckers for another TW game and now having the same type of discussions we had during the STW/MTW days! Some things never change around here I tell ya. Well, I guess you can add me to the TW Sucker list, since T1Master convinced me to purchase the game.
Being an MP-only player I cannot comment on the single-player campaign, but the MP lobby is still the pits, though slightly better than RTW's. The MP is still lacking a good replay, logfile feature set and I still have to mod my files to allow for the older, and better, simplified in-game chat function I enjoyed from MTW.
As for gameplay, I feel the game has improved over RTW's MP. I feel a slight bit more in control of my army. The units appear to react much quicker to orders than in RTW and the pathfinding is a bit better, though some units still get confused and take a longer path than I would like. I also have noticed a few units stopping in mid-battle after I gave them orders to move, or attack. Probably has to do with the new feature where each individual unit assesses its nearby area and decides on a course of action from there.
All-in-all, M2TW is a step in the right direction, and Palamedes appears to have a bit of input into helping improve MP, so I have decided to come back and participate here.
Well, I have been away for a very long time, so I imagine there are quite a few who do not know me, (or care for that matter :) ) I was the only TW player ever to recieve a tennis shoe contract from Nike for my men to wear while on the battlefield. My men run faster and farther off the field of battle than any other. Poor Michael Jordan still sends me hate mail since my men recieved a better contract than his. So fear not, I am back, and ready to build up your confidence in MP. I pride myself on taking overpowered units/armies/factions with a terrain advantage and then proving that I can lose like the newest of noobs. Matter of fact, my men all have smiley faces taped to their backsides so your army will have something to look at as they run away.
Take care and look forward to arguing . . . err . . discussing MP matters with you all. :laugh4:
I haven't purchased it. I saw the nice blue M2TW boxes in the store last weekened, and I wouldn't touch it even to see what it said on the back of the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
If you want to play like the old days, play Samurai Wars on Sundays. You can't get an overpowered army, but the running away part works fine.
Nice to see you again elmo :bow:Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
How i wish we can play 4v4 again.. :no:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
Heyyyyyyyyyyyy Elllllllllllllllllllllllll :laugh4:
I know you would come back to .org sooner or later, you can'y resit the power of.... ORG :2thumbsup: ,hope to play some games with you on MTW2
Yea, The Units do react faster, and seem the games is slighty more balanced then RTW. But I still can't believe how powerfull the Musketeers are. my god, I would use 4 HA and 1 Trezaiod Archer as Byz Empire against 5 Muskets, and my HA got massarced. in a High Era game ,my HA would PWNT, but in this case,they just got ran over. I was fighting a BK member weeks ago, and he had a nice amount of Muskets, and I had a Unit, 60 guys I presume, and it drop down to 45-49 guys in like, 10 seconds, I'm thinking "my god".
Puzz: hehe You have resisted the urge aye? I hadn't bought a TW game since RTW, but I think T1Master used some kind of ancient mind control technique to get past my reservations about this game. :egypt: Plus my young son has been playing a few custom MTW/VI battles and wanted the new game. I just couldn't resist any longer!
Tootie! Good to see you my old "goldfishy" friend. Don't be discouraged just yet, since we may be able to play a low-lag 4v4 game in M2TW. The thing all MP players need do to prepare for a 4v4, is get into the options menu and change to SMALL UNIT SIZE and the lowest video settings possible. This helps tremendously. I have had one 4v4 game which didn't lag very much using this technique, so there is still hope. Unfortunately, I am still running my old PCs I used for MTW/VI, so I am not the fastest hostest with the mostest anymore. :laugh4: I let others host now.
Hey Warman! Didn't know you were still around. I remember when you were a new player on the scene, and under the impression I knew how to play this game. :) Anyways, I got a rush army that can steamroll over any musket army out there. hehe I imagine, after a few weeks of T1 and myself playing online, there will be outcries for the nerfing of my new favorite units! :listen:
Well gentlemen: Take care. I am off to bed. I am on the midnight shift, here at the plant, and was awakened by a contractor come to repair my new house, so I thought I would grab a small snack, jump on here real quick, then hit the sack. Gnight all! :hide:
Hey El,
yup I remember when I was around on .com for a short while (at the beginning of 06 and in the Summer) :). You got a army that can streamroll over a Musketeer army? Tell me What it is :-)
I wouldn't want to give away all my secrets before T1 and I have perfected our teamwork now! Let's just say, this army is very similar to the old Irish rush army T1 and I had in MTW. The units don't look like much individually, but when used in conjunction with their strong points and special abilities as a whole, it is extremely strong at 10k-12k florins. I haven't tried it at higher levels or lower levels than that, so I cannot say if it stays strong at those levels. :)
Marc Antony couldn't resist Cleopatra, and look what happened to him. The blue box is very alluring, but I think there is an asp inside.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
As Obi-Wan Kenobi once said, "These aren't the battles you want.".
As that old drunk who thought he was a philosopher once said; "When you get nothing but lemons: Make lemonade." :beam:
I haven't found a replacement MP game which can keep my interest and my son likes the series now, so I figured: "Why not?" If I don't play it, my son will."
I just played my rush army against a 3-man Elite clan team and it worked very well. I will continue to tweak it to see if it is the M2TW equivalent of the old Irish rush army T1 and I once used.
I will have to try your Samurai mod now that you have had time to tweak it. Once I reinstall MTW/VI on this machine I will download it and meet up with you guys to play. Though going between MTW and M2TW may be confusing for me. It also might highlight the flaws of M2TW's MP by comparison.
Well, its good to see you again Puzz. :yes:
they're not as cool as the irish, but it will be a fun ride.... i bet i can route faster than you elmo!!!!
good to see some old salts poking around here and in the lobby again. the game is what you make it. right now it's a fun atmosphere and good to meet up with old friends again elmo.
Hey,
yea Elmo, we should some 1v1's, and you and t1 should do some 2v2's againt me and my Aggony Clan mates,since I got into Aggony :) :)
You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.Quote:
Originally Posted by t1master
ElmoooOOOOooo!!!! ~:) ~:wave:
Nice to see you back! This is the best news since the release of MTW2. ~;)
I just cannot wait to play this army of yours! I still remember your cheesy byz setup fro MTW ~;p and how I defeated it ... :laugh4: ~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
I never played the byz Cheetah! :) Except for a few times to get even with a few who liked to use all cav armies. You weren't one of THOSE people were you? hehe Good to see you again Cheetah. Can't wait to have you in one of my games and utter those immortal words: "Cheetahs never win!" :beam:
I had the cheezy Elmohead All-Missile Army of Doom. I rarely lost with that army until they nerfed the entire faction in the first patch . . . I think Puzz and CBR might have been behind that one! hehe Though nobody I ever knew could play my army and win with it. I knew how to use judicious upgrading and knew how to set up and move my men around to great effect. And all without a single cav unit! :)
Ah! The good ole days of STW/MTW . . . glad I was around for it, considering it won't happen again in my lifetime.
Cheetah, I try to be on around 9 pm eastern standard time each night, so look for an UglyElmo and join up with me. Looking forward to it. I already have played with AMP, Cromwell, Kenchi Shaka, and 3 Elite clan members. All fun games.
Elmo is sooo into cheese ....
*run away*
Cheese is good :-)
I see you tonight them Mr.Tickle me Elmo :)
Warman in Aggony?Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
lol..
AMP in MTW 2 lobbies?
well i also played him, so i guess he is back...
Warman is now a 1pain1 ... they make you shine Duck boots ?:whip: