My case for Russia...

Ok, I'm going to keep this brief and to the point.

My case for Russia as one of the most entertaining factions for an advanced player bored of western factions-

Great diversity of units and unit abilities. The Russians have great cavalry, decent horse archers, and eventually great infantry. Later on in the game, russians aren't shafted as far as gunpowder goes, because of cossack musketeers and a good selection of cannons. The units are really diverse in their uses too. Horse archers have a specific function that they excel at for instance, as compared to many western nations that have a homogonous blob of units that fill multiple rows (dismounted knights, for instance. A feudal knight, armored swordsman, chivalric knight, sword and buckler man, norman knight... They all are the same basic concept without any real diversity). In contrast, Russia has axe infantry that serve a shock infantry role, while the dismounted dvors make great archer hybrids that can also kick some tail in melee. Woodsmen make a cheap flanking unit that take a decent amount of armored units to hell with them. Boyar cavalry have javelins that pierce armor. Cossack musketeers are the rivals of janisary counterparts.

Location is great for russia. You can't just sit in one spot on top of a 5000 florin trading province. You have to expand wisely, take key points on the map for certain pre-established plans (trading will require black sea and baltic sea provinces). Not being catholic gives you the chance to indiscriminately backstab your neighbors without fear of excom., and adds a certain flavor to the campaign. Your campaign fold out map that came with the game will also be invaluable on your first or second campaign, as marching in the wrong direction could leave you two or three turns away from your objective province.

In summary, you have to try to win, playing every dirty little trick up your sleeve. Russia isn't a breeze by any measure, but you'll find yourself challenged, which leads to a more rewarding experience in the long run. Since you wont be an economic powerhouse, you'll need to manage your armies and cities to perfection. Overall, the diverse unit selection with specialized units will lead to a more rewarding battlefield experience as well.


In conclusion, I recommend Russia to any moderate to expert player looking for a campaign that will swallow you.

What about when the Mongol invasion hits?

nice review

I agree with you completely, plus the Russians have some of the nicest looking units in the game.

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

What about when the Mongol invasion hits?

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To be honest, I haven't gotten that far yet in my campaign. I tend to A) play custom battles with the units to see if I like them, then B) Try the campaign for a few turns, and then C) start the campaign anew on harder settings and try like hell.

I'd assume that dismounted Dvor, which are heavily armored with bows, would be a great counter for mongol HA. On the other side of the scale, merc spearmen are great for absorbing cavalry charges if you put them behind dirt cheap woodsmen.

If you're interested Doug, I'd love to start a new russian campaign at the same time as you and then you and I can post the happenings when we get the chance. We can agree on difficulty settings and such and compare strategies. This way, we'd not only have two reviews for russia at the same time, but a better understanding of the utility of the units since one of us didn't "just get lucky".

@ Doug-

I have the turns set to 1 year per turn, which probably explains why I haven't seen the mongols in my short campaigns yet. Forgot to mention that.

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Originally Posted by PaulTa

If you're interested Doug, I'd love to start a new russian campaign at the same time as you and then you and I can post the happenings when we get the chance. We can agree on difficulty settings and such and compare strategies. This way, we'd not only have two reviews for russia at the same time, but a better understanding of the utility of the units since one of us didn't "just get lucky".

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I'd love that ... but we'd have to do it right away. I'll be out of town until Saturday night for the holidays but could get started tonight if we can agree on conditions.

To be credible, we'd have to play either hard or very hard, tactically and strategically. Our findings would just be ignored by the core players if we didn't.

Frankly, however, I believe the AI does exceptionally foolhardy things on VH, especially tactically. As you know, I'm a horse-archer nut. I've found that enemy armies will keep fighting and get wiped completely out by HA on VH while they'd leave and fight another day on hard or medium difficulty.

So, H/H then? Anybody else have some comments?

As for city management, do what you want. I manage all cities, which tends to make my pace of play rather slow.

Where do you set the turns to years ratio?

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Originally Posted by IrishArmenian

Where do you set the turns to years ratio?

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You change the coding in the game folder... Just go to the file that all of the guides guide you to to mod in unplayable factions, and you'll see a little line a bit farther down that shows turns to years ratio as 2.00

Change it to 1.00 and you'll go at one year per turn.

I'm going to be doing Russia as my next campaing. I decided that when I first played a custom battle with them...I love their units.

I'm playing the Turks now, and I fought the Russians to a standstill after capturing Sarkel. Their position isn't easy...they're super spread out, it takes armies forever to get to the front, and none of their home provinces make much money. Plus, they are VERY weak in the early period since all their good units are high/late. Most of the Russian armies I've fought are just hordes of archers with a couple spearmen because the AI doesn't have any castles, haha...

Their high and late units are great though. I especially love those Dvors. Sounds like a fun campaign, you've reassured my choice.

From what I've seen in the files, the Mongols and the Timurids can appear anywhere from Bulgar to Baghdad regions. There's a 60% chance they'll be a Turkish problem...

You can alway try defending rivers against them if they appear. That's what I'm doing as Byzantium. I took as far as Iasi, and parked a large army on each of the two bridges that cross the river by the city. Those guys are tough. Experience works differently in this game than it did in RTW. Back in Rome, a unit with 9 XP would have 9 attack and 9 defense skill higher than his normal stats. I've got 3-4 units of 9 XP horse archers, and they have 3 attack and 2 defense higher than normal. The rest seems to go into morale. I hit a smaller (14 unit, including 2 trebuchets and 2 rocket launchers) Mongol army with a 20 unit horse archer army (general was the only shock cavalry), and even though I outnumbered them 2:1, I took about 500 casualties in the battle. They don't rout as easily as normal troops.

I was initially a bit deflated playing Scotland on vh/vh and winning relatively easily. But I started a vh/vh campaign as Russia yesterday and I echo everything PaulTa said. Here's a brief outline so far:

Initially start with a single province surrounded by rebels. I grabbed neighboring Helsinki, Smolensk, Vilnius and I was headed to capture Moscow and Ryazan when Poland attacks. Fighting Poland is brutal as none of the my newly captured provinces was developing much revenue and money was very tight. I had to check my Eastern expansion for about 20 turns. When I have Poland fought to a standstill I finally grab Moscow but now Hungary is headed into the steppe territories and had taken Kiev and Ryazan. Big distances between my cities in this part of the map. Very hard to fight on two fronts so I'm much relieved when Hungary agrees to alliance and I can concentrate on Poland.

Basically I then fought Poland tooth and nail for about 30 turns finally taking Riga and Thorn from them. Just as I'm beating them with some better units Denmark attacks. Denmark has a slew of good units from crusading. Now another 20 turns of brutal warfare against a weakened Poland and a strong Denmark. Denmark owns the Baltic Sea so I cant do much with the Navy or trade. Trying desperately to build my economy and trade through other means.

The war is great. I had several battles where it came down to a few units on each side and a half baked charge in the rear by a returning weak unit remnant like missile cav was enough to end it. I lost a few that way and won a few. Unit experience and upgrading the Generals is critical. Noticable difference fighting those blood and guts last stand battles with lower experience units - inexperienced generals often get hammered. Almost never use autoresolve. Probably winning better than 75% of battles against the AI through planning my army unit composition, using best generals and picking best battlefield site. I never have more than about 2500 florins each turn except after a couple of sackings when I have money to upgrade the cities and castles. I am never flush and use the money carefully to recruit maybe 5 or 6 units max per turn.

A couple of turns after I focussed on Denmark and Poland has switched strategies and attacks with armies of good cav units and more missile units and stops using militia. Now of course my merc crossbowmen are useless and I really need my castles upgraded to get better units. I'm able to create a 3 way alliance with Hungary and Venice so I don't worry so much about my southern flank and the East. God help me when the Mongols come....

If I had one crushing defeat and lost an army with a good general I would lose the campaign. It is that close. I haven't had to deal with an AI that gets crazy economics and can hammer me no matter what I do - instead I'm having to deal with AI that is actually upgrading, picking good units to match my choices. I'm using river crossings to choke AI movement, ambushes, high ground, sometimes have to retreat to avoid being surrounded as Denmark has at least double my strength.

In short I am having to think every turn about how to use limited resources to best effect. I'm using all the strategic elements of the campaign game and barely hanging in the game. I'm not being spammed with stacks of cheap AI units. The AI is using the same game elements as me to try to win. It's a joy to play this game. I must have sat at the computer 8 hours absorbed with it. I'm sure a month from now I will find it a lot easier but at the moment the AI and I are well balanced in this campaign.

Kudos to the developers. This is what strategy gaming is meant to be about.

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

What about when the Mongol invasion hits?

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Two stacks with family members show up in the eastern extreme of Bulgar, the rest start off in Kazar and head south (the Mongols being an Islamic faction go after the holy land). They shot right past it in my Russian campagin. I'm :sweatdrop: :sweatdrop: I tells ya. It's so great! :2thumbsup:

In my Byzantium campaign, Russia owns Krakow. The Mongols own everything north and east of it. They don't always go south. The AI up here is nice, though, I have to admit it. I held the bridges at Iasi against them, and they went away. A few turns later, they come back in force, just to see if I'm still holding the bridges (I am). They go away again. Two turns later, here they come again.
https://img237.imageshack.us/img237/...golsbe0.th.jpg

It appears there is a major bug in the Mongol invasion when playing the Novgorods. I was all set for the big event, had some stacks ready to go... and nothing happened. I received the initial message that the vast Mongol Horde were crossing Transoxiana, and then a few turns later the message that the horde had arrived. They never arrived. Every few turns, I'd get another message saying I'd been invaded by the Mongols; but no Mongols ever appeared. I had complete watchtower coverage of the area too. And nothing.

The only thing I can figure is that since I already owned Bulgar and Sarkel by the time of the initial Horde message, it somehow messed up the Horde invasion.

I may restart the campaign and see if I can repeat it; because it sucks having 3 full stacks waiting for an invasion that doesn't seem like it's going to happen.

After getting tired of the Pope, the guilds and the nobles council all telling me what to, I decided to give Russia a try. I'm lovin' it. Nice secure flanks, (only played 40 turns so no mongols yet), I can ignore crusades totally, and Kazaks that are worth their weight in gold.

I built up a navy which came in handy when Poland declared war. I promptly crushed their navy and blockaded their ports. They quickly sued for peace.

Finally captured Kiev, so only Vilnus remains as a buffer with Poland.

I keep checking England every turn because it looks like the Rebels might win there, wierd.

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

What about when the Mongol invasion hits?

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In my games as the Novgorodians I´ve taken everything from Caucasus mountain range to the Baltic Sea and are highly develop when the Mongols have entered south of the Kaspian Sea and went into the Middle East.
In my games as the Turks they have entered in the same place and went for the Russian steppes instead.

The horde is a big dissapointment IMO since they have never established themselves properly anywhere.

Sometimes the horde does establish itself, in my russian campaign i was waiting for the horde when it arrived but boy did i underestimate it, after several crushing defeats they started taking my cities and castles. After putting up as much as a fight as possible (against the horde and my not so helpful neighbours) i decided the only thing left was for a mass relocation.

I gathered all my family members into ships with as much tattered reminants of my army as i could find as 2 stacks of horde sieged Novogrod and sailed over to the Danes to say hello and ask for some new territory hoping that Poland and Hungary have more luck than i did, or that if they dont it will give me some more time to prepare.

(even my 8 Kazaks and 4 Boyar Sons of maxed out experience with my top star general didnt do very well against the horde, they're tough!)

I have a question for the Russian experts. How good are the Berdiche Axemen? I have tried them a bit in the custom battles, but I would like to know how they perform in the field. Also, how do you recruit them? I noticed in the building browser that they require a mason guild of somekind, is this true? If so, how does one get a Mason guild? Lots of building? In my English, Danish and Sicilian campaign, I only got a Mason guild once and I don't know what triggered it.

And to conclude: is it hard to get lasting alliances with the Catholic Factions? Orthodox Christianity is closer to their religion, but it still isn't the "one true faith".

The Masons guild either buffs you pool of the Axemen by 2. Or depending on when you get it gives them too you a city level earlier. Berdiche Axemen are, like Byzantine infantry, a militia unit. They come from cities. Large city specifically.

Lars while the Berdiche Axemen appear blue like the other militia units I notice that you don't get free upkeep for them. Anybody notice if that is true of other advanced militia units?

Well, it's clear people are a lot farther along than this old married guy.

Thirty turns in, the Russian campaign's been a blast. I blitzed south, taking Smolesk, and kept moving. Got to Kiev about half a step before the Poles. Then took Vilius (sp?) after a Polish siege there failed.

Several interesting points about the faction:

Unit loyalty. I've never had a stack with a captain go bandit yet. You can't leave an Egyptian stack without a general, it seemed.

Unit variety. Even early in the game you can get good units by performing missions.

The Poles are your mortal enemy.

Be careful with your money.

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Originally Posted by Faenaris

I have a question for the Russian experts. How good are the Berdiche Axemen? I have tried them a bit in the custom battles, but I would like to know how they perform in the field. Also, how do you recruit them? I noticed in the building browser that they require a mason guild of somekind, is this true? If so, how does one get a Mason guild? Lots of building? In my English, Danish and Sicilian campaign, I only got a Mason guild once and I don't know what triggered it.

And to conclude: is it hard to get lasting alliances with the Catholic Factions? Orthodox Christianity is closer to their religion, but it still isn't the "one true faith".

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The custom battles are actually a decent indicator of their utility, if you have a diverse army on both sides and you have berdiche axemen. In almost all of my tests their initial charge crushed a good ten to fifteen units of higher quality, and then they gave the remaining units a run for their money.

The advantage to berdiche axemen lies in their cheap cost. If you were playing multiplayer for instance, you'd be able to upgrade armor twice and weapons once before you equalled the cost of a vanilla unit of dismounted Chivalric knights. Go a little bit further and invest in one level of experience, and you have a shock infantry unit that really dishes out the pain.

Of course, dismounted Dvor are also worth mentioning as an infantry unit. I didn't expect them to do well in melee against a unit of chivalric dismounted knights, but they apparently have axes instead of swords. I'm guessing this was the reason that they actually pulled out a victory in most of my tests.

The only units you'll have a lot of problems with as Russia seems to be heavy cavalry. In the later years, I'd suggest Tsars Guard. The Tsars guard don't have the charge that polish cavalry have, but their high armor and attack mean that they usually come out on top. You just have to rush your Tsars guard to the enemy cavalry as fast as you can to keep them from getting the charge bonus. Same concept here with your infantry against cavalry.

Later on, Cossack musketeers give those high armored cavalry units something to worry about.

In regards to being hated... Yes, it is a bit of a problem if you're talking about poland, who is hard coded to hate you. An alliance with a nation that borders your potential enemies instead of yourself actually works well in my experience. Even better if they are also at war with your neighbor. So in conclusion, I'd say no, it's not impossible to build lasting alliances with catholics. I held the Danes as allies for about 50 years before I decided to invade Sweden. I even kept on their good side while at war with poland, another catholic faction.

@Doug- I have to start my campaign over again today. I had a wind storm around my house here in Washington, and while I had my campaign paused upstairs I had a power flicker. Currupted my autosave file, and I hadn't manually saved it yet.

I have also noticed that loyalty does not seem to be a problem when playing as the Russians. Im currently playing a modded 1 turn = 1 year campaign as the Russians, and have got a couple of full stacks of my best troops ready for when the Mongols invade. And any of my generals could lead these armies as they are all very loyal.

Oh, and 1 armour upgrade Dismounted Dvor/Dvor are the best looking unit in the game imho.

As an extra twist to my new russian game i took all my family members and every unit i could (except 2 spearmen) and set sail for Denmark in a mercenary ship!.

Things almost came a cropper when 2 pirate ships attacked my loan mercenary, but i won a heroic victory much to my surprise :p.

I made it to Denmark took their capital and Hamburg, gave Novogrod to Poland and im now quite happy and secure while i set a beady eye on England...

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Originally Posted by PaulTa

@Doug- I have to start my campaign over again today. I had a wind storm around my house here in Washington, and while I had my campaign paused upstairs I had a power flicker. Currupted my autosave file, and I hadn't manually saved it yet.

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Ouch. My condolences.

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Originally Posted by Reapz

Lars while the Berdiche Axemen appear blue like the other militia units I notice that you don't get free upkeep for them. Anybody notice if that is true of other advanced militia units?

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I think that to get a free upkeep slot the unit actually has to have militia in it's name.

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Ouch. My condolences.

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Thankfully the surge protector kept my computer from getting fried.

Do you want to post Campaign updates in this thread?

I'm going to go smoke and then fire her up again, so I'll see you in a bit.

There is definitely a problem with the Mongols.

I know the Mongols work; because I encountered a stack of them north of Tblisi when I was playing the Egyptians. But twice now, playing the Russians, I get messages that the Horde has arrived and has even invaded my lands - no Horde. Both times I owned both Sarkel and Bulgar territories, and was actively looking for them. Thinking they might have gone south and ended up just in Persia, I sent diplomats down there too. No Horde. I already had merchants sitting on the silk spots by Baghdad; so they didn't come by there. I searched all through the Caucasus. No Horde. The Egyptian areas further SW of Baghdad also no Horde. Looking at the diplomacy screens, not one faction showed as at war with the Horde, despite getting several messages that they'd arrived and were invading. There was no Horde at all. I find it hard to believe that they were wiped out in just a few turns and didn't bother to invade the steppes at all.

This really cuts into my enjoyment of playing the Russians. I was expecting something huge like in the original M:TW. :no:

The Mongols aren't actually on the map until you get an FMV about them. The text pop-up you get means nothing, ignore it. The FMV is when the Horde actually arrives.

My thanks to lars573 and PaulTa, your responses have been very helpful. ~:) I'm now gonna make my feet a bit wet with custom battles, before plunging into a full blown campaign.

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Originally Posted by lars573

The Mongols aren't actually on the map until you get an FMV about them. The text pop-up you get means nothing, ignore it. The FMV is when the Horde actually arrives.

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Yes, I know. As I said, I recieved mutliple faction messages about them not just invading, which came first, but about them invading my territory. They never showed.

They blitzed through on their way south to reconquer the holy land for Islam. Being good Muslims and all.

Does anyone know if the Mongols "invade" more than once. In my Russian campaign, the Mongols appeared with about 4 full stacks and one, I guess you'd call it a "retard stack". Anyway after I killed a few stacks and my military was the strongest in the world, I got a message telling me the Mongols were the strongest again. I sent some units to see what was going on, and the Mongols got more reinforcements. They currently do not have a settlement. Will they keep getting reinforcements until they settle, or is there something else? Great appreciation to anyone who can answer my question.

What strikes me is that the Mongols are considered an Islamic faction. They had no official religion. Temujin payed homage to the Mountain and the sky, while many of his soldiers were Christian and Islamic.

This isn't Temujin's horde. This is the golden horde. Who did convert to Islam. But not till after they pasted the Russians, Poles, and Teutonic knights.

Goatbuster, a bit of history here. Temujin, later known as Genghis Khan, unified the mongols by about 1206 AD. He spent the next decade plus fighting against the Chinese, the Kara-Khitai, and the Kwarezmian Empire. In 1221, two of his sub-generals, Chepe and Subotai, were sent on a reconnaisance with roughly 40,000 men into Europe. They invaded Russia in 1222, spent the winter by the Black Sea, fought some more battles in 1223 (where Chepe fell ill and died) and returned back to the main mongol armies in 1224. Genghis Khan died in 1227, and was succeeded by Ogatai. Ogatai sent 150,000 men under Batu and Subotai back into Europe by the same route, dismantled Russia in 1236, spent some time consolidating, and they crossed the Dnieper river in the winter of 1240. In 1241 they crushed Poland and Hungary. They were planning on invading Austria, Germany and Italy that winter, but word reached them of the death of Ogatai and they withdrew back to Mongolia to choose the next Khan. The mongols continued to rule Russia as the Golden Horde for the next 150 years or so, until it was torn apart by civil war, then by the White Horde and Tamerlane. The invasion mechanics in this game simulate the advance scouts, the first reconnaisance in force, and finally the big invasion.