Diplomacy *does* work

So, I've seen some threads lately about how diplomacy is broken, bugged, etc, and I've had some recent game experiences that make me think it actually works great, and any issues are due to a misunderstanding than anything else.

Here's what I've done and what I've learned:

My first campaign (English, H/H), I played very aggresively, continually expanding my borders and stopping only on occaision to shore up re-inforcements or on orders from the Pope. This meant I pre-emptively attacked most nations I went to war with, broke an alliance or two, etc. By mid game my reputation was "untrustworthy" and it only got worse, and by the end of the game, my diplomatic efforts were nearly useless. After taking Portugal's 2nd to last province and landing an army on the shores of their final remaining one, I couldn't even get them to agree to a ceasefire without paying them large sums of money. I think I shared a lot of the same frustrations with people here about diplomacy issues, I had no ability to diplomatically disuade a faction from attacking me, it was kill or be killed with any of my neighbors.

I'm midway through my 2nd campaign now (Turks, H/VH), and I've been campaigning at a much slower pace and focusing more on the diplo game than before.

Anyway, nearing the defeat of the Byzantines, I had an incredible "diplomatic victory". After taking Constantinople, I noticed Byz occupied Thessalonica was lightly garrisoned, and made a bold move by dividing my army to take it, mostly I did not want my Hungarian allies, also at war with the Byz, to seize it first preventing me from easily expanding into Venice. This left both Constantinople AND Thessalonica very vulnerable to attack from the Hungarians.

1 turn later, sure enough, there's a Hungarian 1/2 stack just outside of Thessalonica, depending on the units, its probably enough to topple my battered garrison there.

Fortunately, I have a diplomat who gets to the Hungarians just in time. I noticed that our relationship has dropped from So-So to Very Poor since his last visit. In one turn, I gift them:

- Miltary Access & Map Info
- Tribute, 4 turns for 600
- Single Payment of 500

This bumps us back up to reasonable. (And also, I think Military Access prevents their army from devastating my lands!)

Next turn, the army makes a 180 and heads off into a rebel province in the North. Bingo, I'm free to restock my troops and head down to finish off the Byz in Corinth. It was somewaht expensive, but definitely worth it, a war with Hungary would be a huge detriment to my campaign.

Another thing I noticed -- I cancelled trade rights with Egypt, which caused a drop in my global rep from Mixed to Dubious. Immediately after that I noticed that my rep with each of my allies had dropped a level, and it was more expensive to bring it up. So keeping that global rep up is huge.

One thing I can't figure out though -- how can I increase my global reputation? The only things I've figured out are how NOT to decrease it...

I don't think diplomacy is completely broken or anything, but I'm still bothered about how the AI handles offers of ceasefires or vassalage status.

I think an AI state on the verge of defeat would come to you begging for a ceasefire or vassalage, to ensure their survival, but I haven't seen that happening. I think if your relations to them are abysmal (which naturally they are after many turns of war) then they wont agree to anything, even if it means their destruction.

I plan to write a fuller post on this issue soon. Have you had any offers of ceasefire brought to you or any of your offers accepted?

I also think that the AI should ask for ceasefires more but there are ways to raise your standing with other nations I used this on the Papal States to raise my standing with the pope. Every Turn use a diplomat or princess and give the faction youre working on map information and 500 -1000 florins. This will start to raise your standing and diplomacy will work better.

In the case of a weak AI faction vs. a strong player faction, I think the AI should only be willing to accept a ceasefire IF the player faction has a good global reputation.

If you have the reputation of steamrolling all over the map and starting new wars every 2 turns, what would the AI have to gain by agreeing to a ceasefire? It knows you'll just turn around and attack soon, it's best hope is to ally with your enemies and force you to spread your armies and fight on multiple fronts.

Think Britain vs. the 3rd Reich in WWII. At the start of the war, Britain is horribly out gunned by the Wermacht, only the English channel is preventing their occupation. Let's say Hitler proposed a ceasefire with the Brits in order to concentrate his forces in the east and defeat Russia. Why would Britain accept? Their best hope (and eventually winning strategy) was to ally with the US and Russia and force Hilter to fight on both eastern and western fronts simultaneously. Allowing Hitler to prosecute his war with the Russians would have been a disaster since Hitler would have certainly finished the Russians off, then attacked Britain with a much larger force.

OK, that's overly simplistic but it isn't a bad analogy -- if you've expanded all over the map, broken treaties and alliances in the process, why would even an opponent on the brink of defeat want to declare a ceasefire?

Play the game multiple times and for longer periods of times and you will see how bad the diplomacy AI is. One time isn't going to tell you much.

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Originally Posted by IsItStillThere

I don't think diplomacy is completely broken or anything, but I'm still bothered about how the AI handles offers of ceasefires or vassalage status.

I think an AI state on the verge of defeat would come to you begging for a ceasefire or vassalage, to ensure their survival, but I haven't seen that happening. I think if your relations to them are abysmal (which naturally they are after many turns of war) then they wont agree to anything, even if it means their destruction.

I plan to write a fuller post on this issue soon. Have you had any offers of ceasefire brought to you or any of your offers accepted?

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The AI comes to me requesting ceasefires all the time. Generally the moment they suffer a single crushing defeat.

In fact I often have to eliminate their diplomats so that I don't have to say no to a ceasefire when I want to keep taking territory.

At one point I got a faction to give me long term tribute in exchange for a ceasefire... I really wish I had tried for making them a vassal, because the offer I gave them was rated "very generous" so I probably could have milked them much harder.

Oh and another time, playing as Russia, the Hungarians gave me a province in exchange for a ceasefire.

The fact that I always maintain an excellent global reputation might have something to do with that however.

I played my first campaign as Byzantium, and while I wasn't as aggressive as Flavius (I didn't preemptively attack anyone. In fact, I didn't declare war on anyone at all, I only counterattacked those who would declare war on me.), I did notice a progressive downgrading of reputation as well as relationship with all factions. I played my second campaign as the Spanish. In this one, I took a great deal of care with my relations with the Papal States, but didn't really keep up with anyone else. It was even worse than the first. I did at one point use a diplomat to cancel my trade agreement with the Moors because I was going to declare war on them in the near future, and that dropped my reputation from Mixed to Dubious. However, as the game went on reputation kept dropping and dropping. I stopped playing that campaign when I had 41 provinces including my goal provinces of Jerusalem and Granada, and it was at Despicable.

In another thread dealing with keeping relations up, someone posted a list of things they got out of the files that affect your various relationships. One of the important ones was the global effects. You'd have to check that thread for the list as I don't have a link to it handy, but as an idea executing prisoners gives you a small global hit, sacking a city gives you a small global hit, exterminating a city gives you a bigger global hit, betraying an alliance was a big hit, cancelling a deal was a hit, etc. Releasing prisoners gave a small positive, occupying a city gave a small positive, and there were a few others. I have a suspicion that the "global relations" effects ARE your reputation. I suspect that everything you do that causes a modifier to all factions adds to this running total, and the running total is your reputation.

I started my third campaign last night as Venice. In that game, my initial diplomat negotiated trade rights and an alliance with the HRE as well as trading map info with him and buying Bologna off them. I made an alliance with Byzantium, signed trade rights with Milan, Sicily, Hungary and Poland, allied with the Papal States, negotiated Military Access with both the HRE and the Papal States, and stationed diplomats outside Rome, Constantinople, Budapest and one of the HRE castles in the Alps to keep regular contacts in order to keep the relationship status up. I've captured Zagreb, Durazzo, Florence, Ajaccio and Cagliari, occupying each time. My reputation has climbed from Mixed to Reliable thus far, just 20 years into the campaign.

In this campaign, no city will be sacked or exterminated by me. I will declare war on no one other than the Islamic factions, and only that because of crusades. All prisoners will be released without asking for ransom. My allies will be gifted with map information and money as needed to maintain relationships. I will create small shadow army stacks to go to each ally that is engaged in a war, just 2-3 minor units like Italian Spear Militia, whose only purpose is to shadow one of the main armies of my ally and fight alongside it in battle, thus I will be dragged into wars against their opponents.

So far, in just 20 turns, I have been approached and asked for an alliance by Hungary and France. Hungary has allied with the HRE and the Byzantines. The HRE has also allied with France. There are only two wars ongoing globally at the moment, one being France-England (France apparently started it as they just got excommunicated) and Milan vs me and the HRE. Milan did the front-stab thing; it can't be a backstab because I was watching and waiting for it. On the turn they besieged Bologna, they signed an alliance with the Byzantines which ended the war. They attacked me the next turn and broke their Byzantine alliance, then declared war on the HRE for some unknown reason (probably Bern, as the HRE has taken it). They aren't pressing the attack, though. I suspect the Pope has demanded they stop hostilities. We'll see how diplomacy plays out in this game.

That's quite interesting. Perhaps I should try a chivalry game of occupying and releasing prisoners as well as not constantly on the attack.

However, in the play to win camp, I have to say that cash from sacking is just too sweet and executing prisoners is very tempting as you likely won't want those troops fighting you again.

I think there should be a feature whereby executing prisoners of a faction that betrayed you doesn't give you a reputation hit. I mean c'mon, they're dirty weasels, they deserve it!

Kind of explains why my reputation is always stellar... I never break an alliance or any other agreement (If I agree to pay tribute I'll disband troops in order to keep the agreement if I have to), I almost never sack, and I've basically never exterminated, and I often release prisoners (Although I do ransom them sometimes).

I'm also constantly giving little gifts to various factions.

One good thing is, the better your reputation is, the more another faction's reputation will drop when they attack you... Playing as the Moors I managed to produce a "Very Trustworthy" reputation before Spain attacked me... From that one act of breaking our alliance and laying siege to one of my cities their reputation dropped to "Despicable", leaving me free to beat them up at my leisure, since nobody cared what happened to those despicable punks.

I actually like it when the enemy comes back with the same units... Since the AI almost never retrains anything... So they come at me with a whole bunch of crippled units ;)

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Originally Posted by Joshwa

I think there should be a feature whereby executing prisoners of a faction that betrayed you doesn't give you a reputation hit. I mean c'mon, they're dirty weasels, they deserve it!

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You mean the prisoners (soldiers) betrayed you and not the faction's leaders?
Weird :idea2:

Now that explains why I'm at best "untrustworthy" all the time. I always sack cities and rarely exterminate (mostly with huge cities of another religion so it doesn't revolt) and always ransom or exterminate, depending on my general (if its a dread general, then exterminate). I hardly ever release prisoners.

On the other hand, could it be that wiping out a faction using military power can hurt your reputation? I noticed that the more I fought a faction into ruin, the worse my reputation became, but then of course that could be due to sacking cities...

Seems that alliances, vassals and ceasefire costs are related to your reputation. The better you reputation, the more generous your offer is when offering. A mixed reputation makes an alliance offer generous to very generous. Untrustworthy makes it very demanding already.

Letting prisoners go is actually a good idea sometimes, since the AI has to pay for their upkeep. Prevents him getting better stuff into play. For example, I rout a French army of peasants, town militia and some archers that has been around since the game's beginning. I let them go and they retrain to full strength. If they come at me again I know that I can beat them easily. If I kill them all then the French might fill their upkeep cost with armored sergeants and chivalric knights in the next stack he sends at me, since he has teched up quite a bit in the intervening period. I have actually made my life harder and missed out on the chivalry and diplomatic bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Gaius Terentius Varro

You mean the prisoners (soldiers) betrayed you and not the faction's leaders?
Weird :idea2:

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They knew what they were doing, they are just as culpable as the monkeys at the top of the ladder! You should be able to torture faction leaders that betray you, then send bits of their mangled corpses to your other so called 'allies' as a friendly reminder.

Update on the Venice campaign. It's now 29 turns into the campaign. The pope called for a crusade against Antioch, I responded with an army of 3 generals plus just enough of my own troops to make the minimum 8 to join a crusade, filled all but one slots with religious fanatics and crusader sergeants, and set off via sea. I built a quick ballista maker in Iraklion, trained a ballista to join the crusade when it passed, made a slight detour (less than a turn) to make an amphibious assault on Rhodes leaving it to be garrisoned by militia from Iraklion, and moved over to Antioch. Antioch was rebel when I joined the crusade, but was taken by the Turks in the meantime. The Turks had gone to war with Byzantium previously, so I wanted to be at war with them. I took Antioch the turn I got off the boats, repaired the wall, then gifted the city to Byzantium the following turn. I disbanded the crusader troops, disbanded the ballista, got back on the boats and headed back. All 3 generals gained Templar and Hospitaller ancillaries, and my faction heir got the Holy Lance (basically the Spear of Longinus by another name).

I've beaten off 2 sieges of Florence and one of Venice by Milanese troops, releasing prisoners each time. Milan was excommunicated. He moved all his troops near Milan, leaving Genoa garrisoned only by the Duke. I dropped a spy into the city, then swooped down in a lightning cavalry raid (general, 1 mailed knight, 2 cavalry militia units) to kill His Grace the Treacherous, occupying the city and causing Milan to be reconciled with the Papacy because of the death of the former Duke.

I'm now at war with Milan (still, but haven't talked to them about peace yet), the Turks, and Sicily (they did a drive by blockade of the port at Florence). My alliance with Hungary was broken when I attacked Antioch, because they'd allied with the Turks in the meanwhile. My relations are perfect with Byzantium and the Papal States, reasonable with the HRE and Hungary, and my global reputation is now Very Reliable. The Doge is now called The Merciful, and is a 9 star general. Shame he's about to die of old age.

Sounds great, Quillan. I should try playing the diplomatic game a bit more then. Just one thing: why disband the crusaders? The crusader troops are amazingly cost effective in terms of combat power/upkeep. Crusader seargents are probably one of the best spear units in the game and fanatics make for fine flankers/kamikazes

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Originally Posted by Joshwa

They knew what they were doing, they are just as culpable as the monkeys at the top of the ladder! You should be able to torture faction leaders that betray you, then send bits of their mangled corpses to your other so called 'allies' as a friendly reminder.

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:hide: I really don't know how to help you....~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug: ~:grouphug:

Why keep Crusader Sergeants? They're roughly equal to Italian Spear Militia, which costs me 60 florins per unit less to maintain. Not sacking cities causes financial strain, big time. I've been stretching things just to upgrade cities when they get ready for it. I had to put off the large stone wall in Bologna for 3 turns because I didn't have the 4800 to build it! One issue with this strategy combined with this location is my revenue depends utterly on trade, and every time someone marches in and lays siege to a city or blockades a port it hurts. Milan has now assaulted Genoa twice, tried to take Venice again, and I got tired of it.

I moved a full stack over and besieged Milan. They had 18 units inside the city plus some troops outside, so I settled in to starve it out (would have taken 6 turns). On the very first turn, he attacked with a new outside army and the massive garrison came out to help. Unfortunately for him, that meant he had to come to me. I doubletimed it to a high point and routed the entire thing. It scored me a heroic victory. I captured his faction heir plus another family member, and tons of troops. Talk about a lost ransom! But, now that I own Milan (he's reduced to just Dijon now) I should be safe from surprise sieges and can deal with Sicily once he gets excommunicated. Reputation is still at very reliable. Hungary is at war with Byzantium now. HRE made peace with Milan. Things are starting to develop more in the traditional manner, but the HRE isn't at war with anyone currently. While their expansion is stopped, they aren't going out of the game anytime soon either.

https://img156.imageshack.us/img156/...releasepy6.jpg

Yeah, you gotta keep factions happy by gifting them things. And to not break any deals you make. For instance, I once agreed to a ceasefire proposed to me (of course this faction was severely weakened militarily and/or economically and territorially) and they also gave money for it. I thought "Sure, I'll take your money and your ceasefire and THEN we'll be at it again! XD"
Pff.... of course my faction's reputation went down and down and down the hill all the time due to my backstabbing. Especially backstabbing allies, lol, and ignoring the Pope.

Currently I'm playing really nice and slow. My allies, the Papal States, are even at war with those backstabbing Milanese after these attacked me. They also always hold my faction in terribly high regard, so now that Milan, my most terrible backstabbing foe, is an enemy of the Papal States and Christendom, as they are excommunicated, and I am still and will always be allied with the Papacy and acknowledge Christendom, I can now just call Crusades on Milan :)
Which I did of course. In the game I'm just using the Catholics to take care of my enemies and to keep good ties with these Catholic factions as I represent this religion :P

The diplomacy system might be flawed a bit here and there, but overall (and I've played the game and RTW a lot) I haven't been bothered that much by it. I think it's fairly okay.
If a faction attacks you just think like this: they probably fear that you're coming closer to their borders. What would you think if somebody parked a full-stack army in front of your borders, or even a small army? You'd either think: "DAMN, they're gonna get me! I better get them first!" or "Hmmm, they're just being cautious protecting their borders."

Example:
In my current game Spain is the vassal of Portugal and Spain is my ally. Now I will have to keep good relations with Portugal as well so Spain won't do a thing against me. They actually assisted me by blocking off the way of a Moorish army on their way to my undefended settlement.
And this all because of good relations (among others because they know about my alliance with my mighty ally the Papal States?).
I've also been approached by Catholic factions to become their ally. It must have to do with my Papal standing and good relations.

It seems a little odd to me that acts of brutality or mercy affect your faction's percieved trustworthiness. If anything, establishing a reputation as a brutal sociopath should make weaker factions far more eager to get on your good side before you start torching their cities. It would be nice if, in addition to the global reputation score, each faction had something like a global chivalry/dread rating that would partially determine diplomatic relations.

I think the diplomacy system works quite well, but I still hate the unsuspecting breaking of alliances, I mean wtf.

In my first campaign I thought it was broken too. But it is not. The key to reputation is consistency. Braking alliances is a big no no...It is simple if you want a war...It will come to you. Just establish a diplomatic contact that goes nowhere. That will usually do it. As far as cease fires go, they will usually come begging to you after a couple of turns, some times the turn after a big defeat. With some factions a short breather is needed for them to cool off.

The French are my favorite to negotiate with...they will usually give you a territory to insure peace & then a few turns later start another half hearted war until they are down to near nothing. Not only that but the garrisons you receive are usually nice.

So stop saying it is broken! They will give us a fix that no one will like!!!

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

In my first campaign I thought it was broken too. But it is not. The key to reputation is consistency. Braking alliances is a big no no...It is simple if you want a war...It will come to you. Just establish a diplomatic contact that goes nowhere. That will usually do it. As far as cease fires go, they will usually come begging to you after a couple of turns, some times the turn after a big defeat. With some factions a short breather is needed for them to cool off.

The French are my favorite to negotiate with...they will usually give you a territory to insure peace & then a few turns later start another half hearted war until they are down to near nothing. Not only that but the garrisons you receive are usually nice.

So stop saying it is broken! They will give us a fix that no one will like!!!

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The example you cited is a pretty clear indication of how buggy and easy to exploit the diplomatic system is. Just because it works in your favor dosent mean it works correctly.

"One thing I can't figure out though -- how can I increase my global reputation? The only things I've figured out are how NOT to decrease it..."

Above M campaign (H, VH), your global/faction standing drop automatically every turn. Thus you have to constantly give gifts to your alliances you want to keep good in order to maintain them on everything above M.

M campaign's shift you standings to neutral.

E campaign's shift them toward good.

On your hard Turk campaign, you will need to gift hungry money almost every turn/every other turn if you want to maintain a good standing with them.

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Originally Posted by ????

"One thing I can't figure out though -- how can I increase my global reputation? The only things I've figured out are how NOT to decrease it..."

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It's way too early to tell, but it's looking like my suspicion is correct. I've now played through about 60 turns of the Venetian campaign, avoiding all the things that give you global negatives to faction relationships and doing all the things that give global positives. My reputation is rock solid at Very Reliable. My allies have started going to war with one another on occasion, but none of the allies have attacked me directly. I'm now at war with Hungary, but that was because I had a shadow army outside Nicaea when the Hungarian besiegers assaulted, dragging me into it. Find that list, I think it's in the thread on Diplomacy and Keeping Relations Up or some similar title, and it should give you a pretty good idea what to do to raise your reputation.

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Originally Posted by Cranky Hobbit

It seems a little odd to me that acts of brutality or mercy affect your faction's percieved trustworthiness. If anything, establishing a reputation as a brutal sociopath should make weaker factions far more eager to get on your good side before you start torching their cities. It would be nice if, in addition to the global reputation score, each faction had something like a global chivalry/dread rating that would partially determine diplomatic relations.

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I agree. I have never once started a war or broken an agreement. But when someone declares war on me, I show them no mercy. Sack every city, ransom their prisoners, and don't stop until their faction is wiped out(actually, I would be willing to stop if they came to me with a halfway decent ceasefire agreement, but thats another topic). I don't get why that would make me less trustworthy. HE'S the one who started the war, ding his reputation. A global chivalry/dread rating sounds like it would be a good fix for this oversight. Someone highly trustful with a 10 start dread rating should be the last person you betray, not the first :/ It's like turning your formally peaceful neighbor into the mongol horde, at least, thats what happens when someone declares war on me.

The biggest thing is that the game doesn't distinguish between who breaks an alliance. If someone betrays their alliance with you, your reputation suffers too.

Also, execution and sacking/extermination should not count against you if you did not initiate the war. After all, the backstabbers brought it upon themselves.

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Originally Posted by katank

The biggest thing is that the game doesn't distinguish between who breaks an alliance. If someone betrays their alliance with you, your reputation suffers too.

Also, execution and sacking/extermination should not count against you if you did not initiate the war. After all, the backstabbers brought it upon themselves.

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I've never had my reputation go down when an ally broke an alliance with me. I think you are mistaken.

Well, the Venice campaign gets more and more interesting. My reputation is still Very Reliable 85 turns into the game. The HRE expanded to take Rheims and Antwerp. They lost Metz to the Milanese. I retook Metz from Milan, and traded the HRE Metz and 10,000 florins for Bern. Bern was a citadel while Metz was just a fortress. Hungary took Constantinople from the Byzantines, which worked for me as I was going to take it back from them (it's my victory condition, and this way I wouldn't have to betray an alliance with the Byzantines to get it). I completed Fortress Italia by taking out the Sicilians and moved the army across to start working on the Hungarians. To this point, after some 40 turns of war, Hungary has lost precisely nothing in territory to me, and we've only fought one battle. I was getting ready to go after Thessalonica which they'd just taken from the Byzantines a couple of turns ago, when one of their diplomats asked me for a ceasefire, and they were willing to trade Thessalonica for it! I've never before been able to get regions in exchange for peace. Diplomacy is working much better this go around, and it seems to be all because I've kept my reputation high.

I think diplomacy is very simple.

I played as the French. I never break an alliance, never execute enemies, won every crusade but I am have terrible realtions to everyone.

I never start a war, only defend when attacked. Something is not right. My relationship get worst to the Pope when I defend my country?

And why Milan, with 2 cities attack my with 20 cities and the major army? That is not right... And when I tried to make peace they want 30000 florins. I coulc crush then, they should beg.

They have to work a lot more at the diplomacy, more options. Like, ask for help from allies to defend a city. Alliances against one enemy...

Fabiano

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Originally Posted by Musashi

I've never had my reputation go down when an ally broke an alliance with me. I think you are mistaken.

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maybe it is cause he counterattack? going on an counter offensive seem to earn a hit for me. :juggle2:

not like i give a damn, i will make all who betrays me slaves... continue the seige! :whip: not attacking my attacker is just too lame for me. give me mine penalties or not; for i will still deliver them death! :laugh4:

I find you only get penalized for counterattacking if your enemy has a good or neutral reputation. Fend off a few attacks before counterattacking... Once he's down near despicable in the reputation you can basically slap him around without any penalties.

I find annoying how sacking a settlement ruins your reputation. Even sacking rebel ones.
In my moor campaign, i sacked tumbuktu, tripoli and tunis and was at "untrustworthy". I didn't even fight any faction yet!
Thats just broken in my opinion.

OTOH if you keep occupying, your reputation goes up, but at what cost! (unrest + less cash + huge pops)

My first few VH/VH campaigns I was at war with everyone, permanently excommunicated and completely despicable. I also owned most of the map. I wish there was a way to absorb factions (or parts of factions) peacefully, like through a royal wedding or something. TOTAL WAR gets you further than any diplomacy.

Actually, if you think about it, the feudal system at this time usually meant that the lords of the various provinces were rather more... autonomous than is modelled ingame. Lords could and often did owe allegiance to several different masters. Maybe princesses shouldn't just steal generals from the opposing factions, but also the provinces and armies that their husbands control? I can see it now, a mad scramble to hook up all your generals with wives lest they get enticed away by the oldest form of bribery in the book. Then again, maybe that won't help, because there's always divorce...

Intresting idea Dopp.

I like it.

Diplomacy is non-existant, as in every TW-game - period!

In last nights game as England I had "outstanding" relations with France. I married their princess and they married mine. Earlier I gifted them Rennes, Bruges and Antwerp and they are exstatic and we both have military access.
They are getting hammered by Milan so I wanted to swap maps so I´d know where to aid them when they break our alliance!!!!! One turn later they lay siege to Caen!!!! Our relation drops from "outstanding" to "abysmal" in two turns, WTF! :furious3:

So, pissed off as I am, I took Rennes, Bruges and Antwerp back in one turn with three separate forces while moving my spies all over France and she doesn´t have any troops???? Why start a two-front war with no armies? CA really needs to adress this, its simply ruins a great game.

Not relations, reputation. Your relations with France were good, but what was your reputation?

Also, just because both are up doesn't mean your allies can't be treacherous. I've still got a rock solid alliance with the HRE in my Venetian campaign, but they've tried assassinating my generals 4-5 times and constantly try to slip spies into Venice. I just keep the armies and cities stocked with spies of my own and let them die trying. They haven't tried outright military actions against me.

It certainly looks to me as if reputation has a huge effect on your diplomatic standings and deals with everyone. The only nations that have attacked me outright are Milan and Sicily. The islamic factions want peace with me and trade rights. The Holy Roman Empire is thriving; my alliance with them looks like it dissuaded the Danes from going south, so they've been making Poland their plaything for a while now. France isn't in great shape; they lost Toulouse and Bordeaux to the Portuguese, but those both fell to Spain in turn. England still holds Caen, but nobody yet has Bruges. The only people I've had problems making peace with are Milan and Sicily, and I expect that was because our wars were somewhat decisive and I killed a lot of their troops and took cities before asking.