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does it make a difference that the bastard managed to stay out of court?
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does it make a difference that the bastard managed to stay out of court?
discuss...
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It's a major pity for Chile that he was never brought to justice. It makes it harder to move on, but the knowledge that he had embezzled many millions took the shine off him for even his most ardent supporters.
It's one of those times I wish I believed in Hell.
Pinochet was bad, but there have been worse, far worse. For some reason this is reminding me of Marquez's book, The Autumn of the Patriarch.
I do like the comment from the White House spokesman
do you think they may just possibly be suffering from a memory deficiency there .Quote:
``Our thoughts today are with the victims of his reign and their families. We commend the people of Chile for building a society based on freedom, the rule of law and respect for human rights.''
His star still shone brightly for Maggie Thatcher :furious3:Quote:
but the knowledge that he had embezzled many millions took the shine off him for even his most ardent supporters.
couldn´t have put it better myselfQuote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Yup, a bastard. But 3,000 is nothing compared to many other "leaders".
And which countries put him there in the first case? Same one that helped Baptista along with a myriad of others. Realpolitik is all very well and good, but to then take the moral high ground as well is a bit much.
~:smoking:
The worst part is that the US supported Pinochet. But then we have supported almost every tin-pot SOB south of the border. :wall:
Neocon hypocrisy. :juggle2:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
No wonder those down there despise the USA so much. Ah well. Don't wake up, Pinochet.
Good riddance there's a special place in hell's toilet for him. Horrible person, wonderful day though, I hope this get's turned into a holiday for the Chilian's.
As for supporting him. It was our policy back then. We wanted to keep foriegn influences out of the America's. Sad that it sometimes meant supporting horrible people.
Remain seated...Quote:
discuss...
I feel sorry for Margaret Thatcher :rolleyes:
Wasn't it 'Human Right's Day' when he died, yesterday ?Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex
Now that's pretty Ironic.
:balloon2:
:yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
I'm not sure i like all this "i'm happy he died" stuff though, death is never good :no:
To throw some gas-soaked grenades at the fire, did Pinochet benefit his country? Sure, he was an oppressive dictator, but he brought prosperity to his nation. Sounds a lot like some patrons here have described Saddam - that he should have been left in power because he could hold Iraq together. Was he better than the alternative - a leftist government backed by the Soviet Union that would have turned Chile into another tin-pot "worker's paradise"?
You never know, it might have worked :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
He benefitted a certain class in Chile, for sure - and it can be argued that his economic policies set the country up to be one of the most prosperous in South America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
The simple return question is this: Is having one's liberty taken away and society shot through with secret policement worth a good economy?
Remember, that leftist government was elected by the people. Surely the people have the right to make their own mistakes? Does the army matter more than the people? And how do we know how the people's choice would have turned out?
The difference between them is essentially that Saddam coup-ed his way in (though of course a sprinkling of American support here and there, and a huge de-facto direct funding for the whole duration of the bloody Iran-Iraq war...), stealing power from dictators before him; whereas the American-backed Pinochet overthrew the legitimate government of Chile, elected by the people, and put its people into oppression for all the years of his reign for their own benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
Pinochet is American responsibility all the way through; blasting out Saddam at the twilight of his leadership for no reason, however...
Do you think the US blasted out Saddam at the twilight of his leadership for no reason? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by AntiochusIII
Doing some wiki research (is that an oxymoron?) it seems that Pinochet staged his coup during a time when there was debate over wrongdoings committed by Salvador Allende, the elected President. The parliament passed a resolution calling for Allende to get the boot, and Pinochet walks in with his military.
Kind of interesting, since it looks like Pinochet was helping one democratically elected branch of government topple another. He was doing it for his own benefit, but still interesting.
I wonder if Castro will receive the same denouncement when he finally kicks the bucket. As far as I can see, he's a worse offender than Pinochet - at least Pinochet stepped down, sort of.
As to your counter question, BG, I would say, "no."
Foreign influences? Allende was a democratically elected president. He had relations with the USSR, but he was not their puppet. The only country consistently medaling in Chile at the time was the US. American companies regularly supported presidential candidates who were pro-US by throwing money at them.Quote:
As for supporting him. It was our policy back then. We wanted to keep foriegn influences out of the America's. Sad that it sometimes meant supporting horrible people.
And Pinochet wasn't the only one. We propped up the Somoza regime in Nicaragua. We threw out the elected leader Jacobo Arbenz in Guatemala for buying land from US companies at the price they reported on their tax returns. Trujillo, Batista. The list of dictators with a penchant for disappearing their subjects is disgustingly long.
That is why Pinochet was unnecessary. Allende was falling democratically. He even had plans to call for a plebiscite the speech with that plan was due to be delivered on Sept. 12 a day after coup.Quote:
Doing some wiki research (is that an oxymoron?) it seems that Pinochet staged his coup during a time when there was debate over wrongdoings committed by Salvador Allende, the elected President. The parliament passed a resolution calling for Allende to get the boot, and Pinochet walks in with his military.
Kind of interesting, since it looks like Pinochet was helping one democratically elected branch of government topple another. He was doing it for his own benefit, but still interesting.
On the other side of the world you'll find people with the same idea, but only because they had the hope that Pinochet would finally reveal were are their missing relatives and parents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
No, he won't. In this side of the planet he'll receive a modarate praise. But Pinochet has also his support, even inside Chile, as we've our own supporters of the Junta here also. The arguement of this people is usually that the dictators didn't order the illegal enprisonments, the tortures and the killings at the rate "other people" say they did. For example here (with one of the greatest numbers) the number of missing people reaches 76.000, in Chile I believe it's 5.000, however in both cases they say that the number is not greater than 3.000. Some people also deny the sistematic character of this processeses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
One thing is truth, however, in both cases the dictatorships brought a new culture to both countries, the human rights culture.
Yes that's truth. Here the same thing happened, only that the benefitted class in my country were the land owners (between others, like the Catholic Church), wich didn't improve the economy at all. But Chile benefitted more by allying themselves with USA and Great Britain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
There's one thing that repulses me more about Pinochet than any other thing, he never recognized that what he had done was morally wrong, he never asked for the forgiveness of the thousands of people suffering in his country, instead he went to England and was received with open arms by the political class. At least Tatcher did thank him for his support. Seeing him say that he had nothing to regret the other night was pathetic and I almost puke also.
one dictatorship isn´t better than another......be it right wing or left wing....in the end it´s the people that suffer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander the Pretty Good
Hi
I would like to dig around three big points:
1º The legitimacy of the coup d`etat of 1973 is out of question. Although it lacks completely of positive legal basis among our laws, their bottom reasons were undeniable. The climate of violence, the state terrorism, the sistematical violation of human rights before september 11 1973, all with the State`s excequatur, were unbearable. No human beign in Chile was safe from the violence of those days, the confrontation climate was escalating rapidly into a full scale civil war, incentivated by the government.
Allende`s government knew this, and was preparing accordingly. Tens of thousands of short arms were found into secret arsenals, amongst them AK`s, M-16, MG3, DSHK`s, LAW`s, etc. That armament was bought to the international black market via Cuba, and was being internated massively into Chile on russian and cuban ships. Right after the 9/11, kalshnikovs were found buried into sugar sacks on a ship coming from Cuba...
The thing is, here, Allende tried to make a pretty singular experiment: he tried to instaurate the socialism/comunism democratically and pacifically. But by 1973 the freedoms were totally restricted, people were being massively kidnapped and/or killed (people such as CEO`s, Judges, Senators, Officers of the armed forces, etc.), the economy was totally destroyed, and such a damage was being made to Chile, that it wasn`t before 20 years that we managed to recover completely from it.
The thing is that his "pacifical way into the socialism" was a sound failure. So, he was preparing to do it the old way, "by the book". Just like Cuba, North Corea, Vietnam, and Russia.
Such were the circumstances here in Chile, that there was no political force strong enough to reorganize the country. No political force was able to govern. So, the Right and the Center political wings, in order to stop a civil war, asked for the Military to intervene.
The most important calls for the military to intervene were:
*May 26, 1973, Supreme court denounced the "disruption of the legality of the nation" by its failure to uphold judicial decisions, due to the government's constant refusal to allow the police to carry out the judicial resolutions that were opposed to its own measures. (This isn`t specifically a call for the military, but it demonstrates that the Rule of Law was long gone by 9/11/1973) (to read more, take a peek at Wikipedia)
*The chambers of deputies, in august `73, specifically called for the military intervention. From Wikipedia:
Allende`s repsonse, if you haven`t figured it out, was a call of arms.Quote:
On August 22, 1973 the Christian Democrats and the National Party members of the Chamber of Deputies passed, by 81 to 47 votes, a resolution entitled "Declaration of the Breakdown of Chile’s Democracy", which called upon the military to "put an immediate end" to what they described as "breach[es of] the Constitution… with the goal of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law and ensuring the constitutional order of our Nation and the essential underpinnings of democratic coexistence among Chileans."
The resolution declared that the Allende government was seeking "...to conquer absolute power with the obvious purpose of subjecting all citizens to the strictest political and economic control by the state... [with] the goal of establishing a totalitarian system," and claimed that it had made "violations of the Constitution" into "a permanent system of conduct." Many of the charges came down to disregarding the separation of powers and arrogating the prerogatives of both the legislature and judiciary within the executive.
Among other particulars, the regime was accused of:
***ruling by decree, thus thwarting the normal system of adopting legislation
***refusing to enforce judicial decisions against its own partisans and "not ***carrying out sentences and judicial resolutions that contravene its objectives"
***ignoring the decrees of the independent General Comptroller's Office
***various offenses related to the media, including usurping control of the National Television Network and "applying ... economic pressure against those media organizations that are not unconditional supporters of the government..."
***allowing its supporters to assemble even when armed, while preventing legal assembly by its opponents
***"...supporting more than 1,500 illegal 'takings' of farms..."
***illegal repression of the El Teniente strike
***illegally limiting emigration
The resolution finally condemned the "creation and development of government-protected armed groups which... are headed towards a confrontation with the Armed Forces." Allende's efforts to re-organize the military and police, which he could not trust in their current forms, were characterized as "notorious attempts to use the Armed and Police Forces for partisan ends, destroy their institutional hierarchy, and politically infiltrate their ranks."
Now, the second topic:
2º
Human Rights. Nothing can justify the killing of 3000 human beigns. As someone said earlier, no economical boost can justify the killing of others.
Their murders were made often in horrible conditions, and followed tortures and degradatory treatments. They weren`t excecuted after a legal process, and many of them were innocent of the crimes of which they were accused.
Just like in any war that the history remembers.
That`s what it happened here. The Junta didn`t prevented the civil strife, but only reduced it to it`s minimal expression.
The casualties on the coup`s day were suprisingly low (30 or so), but more than 1500 people (political prisoners) were killed on the first 3 months. Those people were mainly leaders of leftist organizations, people that (in the junta`s concept) represented a risk for the goverment, for their potential to organize and lead terrorist groups and paralell governments. With their elimination, the possibility of an escalation of the conflict was nulled.
During the regime, the junta sitematically violated human rights via political murders and tortures. That cannot be justified.
Now: The sistematical violation of human rights was Pinochet`s responsability?
Politically, yes. He was politically responsible of everything that happened on his government, with or withouth his knowledge.
Did he ordered all those excecutions and tortures? Is he guilty by omission? Or maybe all those killings and torture were product of disciplinary problems and actions of lesser generals and colonels? It`s a pretty debated matter, but it all aims that he ordered people to be shot at. Then again, it`s pretty debated, and no court did declared him guilty.
Personally, I think he did ordered killings and tortures, but it`s precentage is uncertain, so we cannot know wether he ordered to kill 3000 or 300.
And criminal responsability cannot be presumed.
3º
Legacy.
I don`t wanna over extend this post more than as it is, so I`m just going to list some points:
***Prevented the arrival of the comunism into our country.
***Prevented (mitigated?) a civil war.
***Reorganized the State`s institutions, and reduced the size of the public structure.
***Repared the enormous economic and moral damage that was being made to our country.
***Laid the foundations of the strongest economies of South America.
***Gave us an institutional order that works till this day.
***Gave us back the democracy (delivering the goverment via plebiscit)
***Prevented a war against Argentina and Peru
***Gave us stability in every respect
***3000 deaths and thousands of people torturated.
*******************************************************
You can get your own conclusions, I tried to be as objective as it can gets for a person that lives on the very same country on which all that I`ve wrote actually happened.
Bye.
But Castro will undoubtedly be mourned as a martyr or father while Pinochet is vilified - deservingly. It is this disparity that annoys me, as I suspect it is partisan in nature.
Haven't had time to read your entire post yet, so don't take this as a final judgement or anything like that.
But this:Come on. :wall:Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
He surely did not restore whatever morality was supposed to mean by "disappearing" all those people, surely?
Edit: a little more detailed:
Do you mean it is legitimate, or it is not?Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
I could not support the former if that is your implication. Simply put, a coup d'etat done without the majority popular support is just that, a power-grabbing coup d'etat. No amount of "but somebody wants them in!" would work. Even if the Supreme Court of Chile or its Congress equivalent (Chamber of Deputies?) ordered the military intervention -- which the former did not -- there would still be no true legitimacy by any means. If the US Supreme Court declares tomorrow that Bush is a communist scum and the military needs to throw him out; and the country did not get to vote about it -- I'd call that illegitimate.
Try the recent case in Thailand for example. Quite a few hundreds of thousands (millions?) wanted Thaksin out, yet the majority of the country voted him in and haven't voted him out yet. What the military did is despicable villainy there. I wish them generals all terrible death for betraying the Country's Democratic experiments. Needless to say, I don't need to wish for Pinochet's...
There isn't anything wrong with a call of self-defense against a military on the verge of a coup now, is there?Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
The thing is, Allende was not ousted by legal means. And you can speculate all you want that he's about to throw a Castro tantrum, Communist Revolution or whatever, but there's no way to prove that; using in an argument to justify a dictatorship that overthrows a former regime isn't going to go with me. There are ways to dealing with a political crisis other than allowing a strongman to come in and start calling himself Il Duce.
It was not a war. And criminality everywhere does not excuse another criminality anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
Milosevic "died innocent."Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
- presuming communism is a crime by default isn't just.Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
- perhaps; or he might be considered to have actually won it. And who instigated that potential civil war again?
- which any government could've done if the will is there; and, by all means, I never heard of anyone believing that "strong, effective government" comes before human lives
- dealt with that one. Just because the Americans pumped in so much money into Chile...
- economy is not above basic human rights; Soulforged is right, though, Chile acquired that particular notion only through Pinochet's repressive reign. Hopefully it will cherish that forever.
- Allende was elected; Pinochet was not. The former might or might not be ready to squash Democracy; the latter did.
- was there any particular reason Argentina and Peru would be so eager to storm Chile if Allende continued to govern?
- you can use that as an argument, I guess; it's your country after all...
Though some who disagrees obviously don't get the chance to speak, or even live.
Castro fought Yankees. And we in the North (somewhat deservingly) have a bad name south of the border. Pinochet on the other hand was in the pocket of Yankees.Quote:
But Castro will undoubtedly be mourned as a martyr or father while Pinochet is vilified - deservingly. It is this disparity that annoys me, as I suspect it is partisan in nature.
Okey, I`ve edited cuz I didn`t read Antiochus`s answer. So here we go.
First with some previous posts:
The foundations laid by that goverment are the substrate of the current economical structure of Chile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Even though the current economical order doesn`t benefit everyone in this country, it sure does benefit more than a "certain class".
Nope, I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Just like Hitler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Errr, Hitler again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Taking a look at countries like Cuba, and North Corea perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
That`s not entirely true, the cuban intervention in Chile went farther than the importation of a couple of sugar sacks...Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
There were some mercenaries and guerilla instructors involved, you know.
Do you actually believe that Allende`s people was just going to ship back to Cuba all the weapons, all the ammunitions, all the instructors, etc., should they have lost the plebiscite?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
Do you think those would have been free elections?
I agree with you though, Pinochet was completely unnecessary, but from the point of view that if our people and the political class wouldn`t have been so obtuse and confrontational, and should they have managed the country seriously, and not like a third-world-cold-war-political-battlefield, should our political class have had brains, Pinochet wouldn`t have been neccesary.
******************************************************
And now with the one from antiochus:
No, it didn`t. What he did do, is to restore the regime of rights in our country, and stop a climate on which no one respected no one`s rights.Quote:
He surely did not restore whatever morality was supposed to mean by "disappearing" all those people, surely?
If you are familiarized with the term "class struggle", you may see what am I aiming at. There was a state sponsored education for incentivating the class struggle and open fight between the citizenship.
Off course, he did ran over thousands of people`s rights, and what`s more sad, no one can say that it was for the greater good, cuz all those kills were avoidable...
The Coup was legitimate (In my concept).Quote:
Do you mean it is legitimate, or it is not?
It`s pretty subjective this apreciation, but the initial popular support to the junta was overwhelming.Quote:
Simply put, a coup d'etat done without the majority popular support is just that, a power-grabbing coup d'etat.
Well, I can`t demand you to know this (too specifical, even though i would be amazed that you know this), Allende was elected with only the 36,6% of popular support (first mayority though, but not absolute mayority).
That was his best time, when everyone had the possibility of work, private property, freedom of leaving the country, and with something to get into their bellies.
From that moment, unquestionably, the popular support went into a constant downward curve for him.
The legitimacy of a governant, based on popular support, get`s dizzy on this point, don`t it?
Pinochet, on the worst time of his government (the time when he lost the plebiscite, after the protests, etc.), had 44,01% of popular support.
I guess I didn`t expressed myself correctly. The other 2 powers of the state actually denounced that the excecutive power (President) should cease his tresspassings to the laws and to the constitution. Both declared the regime out of the constitution. The congress, a democratically elected organism, the power of the state that has the mission of watch over the president, actually asked for the military to intervene, with almost 2/3 of favorable votes...Quote:
No amount of "but somebody wants them in!" would work.
I feel that people don`t have full conciense of what was like in 1973. There was a civil war ad portas, patronized by the government. The government sponsored the murder of tens of thousands of brethren in order to implant the communism by force (a sistem evil by nature, as someone stated)... and you say that an action made in order to overthrow that regime... is illegitimate?
What happened with USA `s mission in order to liberate Europe from nazi regime on 1941?
Every one has the understandable "right" to defend itself from aggression. That doesn`t justify it when you`re in a position of total illegitimacy.Quote:
There isn't anything wrong with a call of self-defense against a military on the verge of a coup now, is there?
I agree, it wasn`t ousted by any legal means.Quote:
The thing is, Allende was not ousted by legal means.
Chile was on it`s way to a revolution, and at the minute of it`s overthrow, promoted the violence between citizens. Promoted a civil strife and hate.Quote:
And you can speculate all you want that he's about to throw a Castro tantrum, Communist Revolution or whatever, but there's no way to prove that;
People on other parts of the world, perhaps more familiarized with conflicts and wars, may not see this as something very serious. Here we don`t see wars very often, and for us, to call people to kill eachother, is actually shocking.
I was n o t justifying. If you read the whole post, you may have perceived that not in one time I did justify the murder of 3000 ppl and the torture of thousands.Quote:
It was not a war. And criminality everywhere does not excuse another criminality anywhere.
I was putting it into context. It was a war. People were getting kidnapped and tortured, people were getting killed. There were 2 very clear sides, each one phisically attacking each other (very lightly, something like a skirmish, but escalating undoubtedly into a full fledged conflict)
The confrontation climate was such, that a civil war was inminent. IMO, the civil war did happend, just in a minor scale of what we normally conciebe.
A sistem that promotes open hate between human beigns, that specifically states that it needs a civil strife and thousands of deaths in order to succeed isn`t specifically the kingdom of heaven.Quote:
- presuming communism is a crime by default isn't just.
The political class, first the left wing, specifically the Socialist Party (Actually more confrontational than the comunist party), by promoting the violence. And also the extreme right wing for retaliating with more violence.Quote:
And who instigated that potential civil war again?
Sure, but it was the only government in 150 years of history of our country that did it.Quote:
which any government could've done if the will is there;
We agree again.Quote:
and, by all means, I never heard of anyone believing that "strong, effective government" comes before human lives
Okey, I perceive an apalling lack of information here about this particular aspect of this history. It denotes absolute ignorance about the role of USA during the military government. Sorry for the strong adjectives, but I can`t callificate it with less.Quote:
Just because the Americans pumped in so much money into Chile...
Agreed.Quote:
- economy is not above basic human rights; Soulforged is right, though, Chile acquired that particular notion only through Pinochet's repressive reign. Hopefully it will cherish that forever.
Yes. The territorial conflicts here traces back till the XIX century, and they`re pretty catalyzed with military governments with lot`s of ammo.Quote:
- was there any particular reason Argentina and Peru would be so eager to storm Chile if Allende continued to govern?
And we certainly weren`t on the attacking side.
Cheers.
The NRO has a symposium on Pinochet. Apparently he was a great and misunderstood man. Who knew?
Dont make me laugh.In the 1970, Argentina and Chile were under autoritarism.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur
The question was very simple.Or you think such as the militars think or you will die.
All forgotten Argentina and the military gobernament in 1970.
Are you rewriting history there .Quote:
Yes. The territorial conflicts here traces back till the XIX century, and they`re pretty catalyzed with military governments with lot`s of ammo.
And we certainly weren`t on the attacking side.
Chile attacked , Chile declared war ...over tax on bird excrement .:dizzy2:
Peru honoured its treaty with Bolivia , though it did try negotiation instead , and Argentina wasn't even involved .
Now could you explain this little gem .
........Quote:
The Coup was legitimate (In my concept).
?????????????Quote:
I agree, it wasn`t ousted by any legal means.
It seems like you have a rather strange concept there .
"Among our laws"? Voy a presumir que sos chileno. Bienvenido al "Backroom" hermano del oeste. :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
I'm not going to deslegitimate the coup d' etat of 1973. However I don't think that the only force capable of regaining the central power and reconstructing it was the military. In the end one system of oppresion was replaced for another. The question is if it was the right thing to do given the result or the means.
That will lead me to ask: What would have happened if there was a civil war and the armies of Allende have won? Do you ask yourself the same question? Will it have been better to wage a civil war than to allow a centralized power to opress the people at the scale they did?Quote:
Allende`s government knew this, and was preparing accordingly. Tens of thousands of short arms were found into secret arsenals, amongst them AK`s, M-16, MG3, DSHK`s, LAW`s, etc. That armament was bought to the international black market via Cuba, and was being internated massively into Chile on russian and cuban ships. Right after the 9/11, kalshnikovs were found buried into sugar sacks on a ship coming from Cuba...
I've heard arguments of economic stabilization in Chile. However let's be sincere here, no country in South America is really stabilized, at least in the economical aspect.Quote:
The thing is, here, Allende tried to make a pretty singular experiment: he tried to instaurate the socialism/comunism democratically and pacifically. But by 1973 the freedoms were totally restricted, people were being massively kidnapped and/or killed (people such as CEO`s, Judges, Senators, Officers of the armed forces, etc.), the economy was totally destroyed, and such a damage was being made to Chile, that it wasn`t before 20 years that we managed to recover completely from it.
What about a social force? The people didn't unite a cause?Quote:
Such were the circumstances here in Chile, that there was no political force strong enough to reorganize the country. No political force was able to govern. So, the Right and the Center political wings, in order to stop a civil war, asked for the Military to intervene.
If you're refering to me, then I apolagize for the mistake, but I didn't want to imply anything of the sort. That's why Pinochet is repulsive to me.Quote:
Human Rights. Nothing can justify the killing of 3000 human beigns. As someone said earlier, no economical boost can justify the killing of others.
Similar actions were carried out here. The main, and pointless, goal was to surpress a way of thinking, but most of all, acting.Quote:
The casualties on the coup`s day were suprisingly low (30 or so), but more than 1500 people (political prisoners) were killed on the first 3 months. Those people were mainly leaders of leftist organizations, people that (in the junta`s concept) represented a risk for the goverment, for their potential to organize and lead terrorist groups and paralell governments. With their elimination, the possibility of an escalation of the conflict was nulled.
The theory of culpability, in this kind of cases, attributes the responsability to highest ranking officer in any centralized system, when the actions of his subordinates happen during their offices.Quote:
Did he ordered all those excecutions and tortures? Is he guilty by omission? Or maybe all those killings and torture were product of disciplinary problems and actions of lesser generals and colonels? It`s a pretty debated matter, but it all aims that he ordered people to be shot at. Then again, it`s pretty debated, and no court did declared him guilty.
And it doesn't matter either, only 1 torture ordered would have been enough to descredit his legitimacy.Quote:
Personally, I think he did ordered killings and tortures, but it`s precentage is uncertain, so we cannot know wether he ordered to kill 3000 or 300.
Only in a legal process. But Pinochet was only exposed to the excrutiny of the people, not the organs of an State.Quote:
And criminal responsability cannot be presumed.
Yes I've heard that argument too in a demostration too. The real question if it was something good or bad. Both measures would have been transitory (the Junta and the "dictatorship of the proletariate"), in theory at least. Both could have helped to stabilize the country.Quote:
***Prevented the arrival of the comunism into our country.
Again I think that this begs the question: What if a Civil War prevented a dictatorship? I.e. If it had happened the other way around.Quote:
***Prevented (mitigated?) a civil war.
Are you sure about it? Or is it only for the eyes of the higher classes and the cities?Quote:
***Gave us stability in every respect
I think he refers to the limits conflict. There was always a limits conflict between his country and mine. The Beagle's Channel conflict was the most important. That's what Pinochet allegedly avoided: In 1978 Argentina was at the edge of war with Chile, there was three extreme southern islands at stake, right on the Beagle's Channel. This conflict erupted in the XIX century as a consequence of a limits treaty between Chile and Argentina wich didn't even treat the subject of whose power was exercised on the waters of the channel.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribes
And the US sent military advisers, the CIA, weapons, School of the Americas graduates to Chile. The point was that the USSR and Cuba, while friendly to Allende's Chile did not control the government nor act as more than allies, which is more than can be said for the US. So the argument about keeping 'foreign influences out' is flat out wrong.Quote:
That`s not entirely true, the cuban intervention in Chile went farther than the importation of a couple of sugar sacks...
There were some mercenaries and guerilla instructors involved, you know.
How do you know he wouldn't. And in that case, had Allende lost the election, the people, with military support, could have legitimately overthrown Allende and put the proper democratic government in office. Thereby making Allende the villain for blocking democracy, as it stands he is the victim because he was the elected president.Quote:
Do you actually believe that Allende`s people was just going to ship back to Cuba all the weapons, all the ammunitions, all the instructors, etc., should they have lost the plebiscite?
Do you think those would have been free elections?
Hi y`all
I was refering to the 1978 conflict, which thank God didn`t happened. You, in turn, mix a quasi-war that was bound to happen in 1978, with a war that did happened in 1879Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
About the 1879 pacific war, yes, we did declared war to Peru and Bolivia, over the unilateral breach of a treatie made by the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Plz, if you would like to know more about it`s causes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_...Crisis_and_war
Yes, a secret military alliance (a defensive treaty to be precise).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Okey, let`s go back on topic, shall we?
Well, to be brief, the strict legal positivism was abandoned long ago, and the postulates of Hobbes and Bentham on the matter are now greatly moderated by the influence of some principles coming from the old ius naturalism. That is, you cannot separate completely the moral from the legal norm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
I don`t wanna get you all bored about this, with all this juridic theory, but to be brief, Kelsen`s "Reine Rechtslehre" (Pure Theory of Law) was very citicized after the Second World War, to the point of making it unacceptable on the form that Kelsen originally conciebed it.
To separate completely the moral background from a positive law (by positive I mean manifest or written law, if you please) would have made the Nazi regime untouchable for it`s crimes, because all of them were made strictly according to the state laws.
So, the following phrases:
Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
Can fully coexist in a coherent argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
*********************************************************************
Prove it. I can`t prove that it didn`t happen, because I can`t prove a negative.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
But what I can say, is that the USA`s support to the military junta in Chile went no further than some chilean graduates from the School of the Americas, sporadic intelligence information, and things like that. NO ECONOMICAL SUPPORT. The US government condemned the Junta after discrepancies about the managment of the country (we actually were pretty attacked (internationally, not militarily) by the US), specifically because we didn`t wanted to be puppets of anyone.
After the assasination of Orlando Letelier in Washington, it all turned very shitty between the US and Chile.
Something that might ilustrate the subject: Do you know what the Kennedy Amendment was? Well, that wasn`t the only measure taken against Chile in those years.
By making a simple look at what happens with the elections in countries where a totalitarian regime is on the power.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimBob
Saddam had the 100% of the votes when he was elected, you know...
There can be no democracy in a regime that uses totalitarian methods, and that views as an objective to implant by force a totalitarian regime.
**********************************************************************
Gracias amigo, sí, soy Chileno. Eres argentino? Saludos pal otro lado de los Andes!!!! (Thanks buddy, yes, I`m Chilean. Are you and argentinean? Greetings to the other side of the Andes)Quote:
"Among our laws"? Voy a presumir que sos chileno. Bienvenido al "Backroom" hermano del oeste.
Well, making an excercise of ucrony is often difficult. To do it, one of the best ways to know the "what if" is to make a comparison among similar examples around the globe.Quote:
That will lead me to ask: What would have happened if there was a civil war and the armies of Allende have won? Do you ask yourself the same question? Will it have been better to wage a civil war than to allow a centralized power to opress the people at the scale they did?
First, let`s compare with cold war struggles around the world. In my opinion, it would have happened something similar to what happened in Vietnam or Korea, only in a much smaller scale. We would have begun with a fraticide fight (which most probably would have extended to neighboring countries), and then we would have had (probably, after what happened in Vietnam those years, I`m not sure) a full scale military intervention of the USA.
The death toll would have been counted not in thousands, but in hundreds of thousands or even in millions.
Would the extreme leftists had won, defeated the regular army and installed a comunist regime here, in addition of the direct cassualties from the civil war, we would have followed the sad fate of Cuba or North Corea, with thousands of deaths caused by excecutions, deaths in gulags, and because of famine (just like what happened in North Korea and China).
Hehehehe! :rolleyes: Nothing is ethernal, not our 20 year economical bonanza, nor your economical crisis (assuming that you`re argentinean). Everything changes, the wheel of fortuna leaves you looking at the sky in one minute, and squashes you against the ground on another.Quote:
I've heard arguments of economic stabilization in Chile. However let's be sincere here, no country in South America is really stabilized, at least in the economical aspect.
That was the problem. Both sides were so polarized and poisoned with utopies and irrational hate, that no side was able to govern. The Institutions were completely broken, the separation of powers was gone... there was no order or sistem by which you could govern a country, because every institution (the courts, the police, the parlament, the social security sistems) was already violated and destroyed.Quote:
What about a social force? The people didn't unite a cause?
The size of the state was mounstruous, ungovernable. The police was nullified, all the industries were closed, the country didn`t produced anything. The government was so busy making theories about distributing the goods, that it forgot to produce goods. Thus, we had famine, lack of goods, etc.
The country was paralyzed, and the rationing that had went for a number of years was evolving rapidly into downright famine and misery.
No social force was able to govern that thing. There was a complete anarchy.
Yes, that`s right. But that`s political or hierarchical resposability. But personal or direct responsability is another issue, one that should determined by the court.Quote:
The theory of culpability, in this kind of cases, attributes the responsability to highest ranking officer in any centralized system, when the actions of his subordinates happen during their offices.
I agree.Quote:
And it doesn't matter either, only 1 torture ordered would have been enough to descredit his legitimacy.
I agree with you, but we cannot mistake the public or historical judgment with the legal judgment. Qualifiying someone as legally guilty when there is no res iudicata is erroneous.Quote:
Only in a legal process. But Pinochet was only exposed to the excrutiny of the people, not the organs of an State.
On the same matter, I must say that he was being judged and investigated, so actually he was being exposed to the organs of the state.
Only that he wasn`t condemned.
The dictatorship of the proletariate......... transitory? Hmmm, that`s what Lenin said. And Stalin and the party during the 20s... the 30s.... the 40s... well, I think you get my point.Quote:
Yes I've heard that argument too in a demostration too. The real question if it was something good or bad. Both measures would have been transitory (the Junta and the "dictatorship of the proletariate"), in theory at least. Both could have helped to stabilize the country.
I think I answered this one above.Quote:
Again I think that this begs the question: What if a Civil War prevented a dictatorship? I.e. If it had happened the other way around.
At least now, nobody can come here and expropiate your land or your property in the name of social justice, because you have too much (too much may vary, specially on the lips of a totalitarian regime)... nor demand that you should affiliate to a sindicate or a party in order to get a job... at least, you know for sure that the product of what you worked today is going to be "yours for sure", and not "yours, but only till the State wants it for himself". (except for the taxes, off course :grin: )Quote:
(Security) Are you sure about it? Or is it only for the eyes of the higher classes and the cities?
Yes, I did. And thank God (and the Pope) we didn`t get to blow eachother`s noses...Quote:
I think he refers to the limits conflict. There was always a limits conflict between his country and mine. The Beagle's Channel conflict was the most important. That's what Pinochet allegedly avoided: In 1978 Argentina was at the edge of war with Chile, there was three extreme southern islands at stake, right on the Beagle's Channel. This conflict erupted in the XIX century as a consequence of a limits treaty between Chile and Argentina wich didn't even treat the subject of whose power was exercised on the waters of the channel.
Un gusto!
Adios!
Hola, soy de la otra parte de la cordillera de los Andes!!!!!
And a republic in flames...It was the same situation there and here.Quote:
No social force was able to govern that thing. There was a complete anarchy.
But the coup was neither legal or moral .Quote:
Well, to be brief, the strict legal positivism was abandoned long ago, and the postulates of Hobbes and Bentham on the matter are now greatly moderated by the influence of some principles coming from the old ius naturalism. That is, you cannot separate completely the moral from the legal norm.
The problems that plotters claimed they were morally obliged to fix were problems they themselves(and their backers) were creating .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
That`s entirely false. Because, the people that created those problems never took part on the government. On the first years of the junta, only the military took active part on the government and managment of the country.
The military never created problems to the government, moreover, the president called some generals to office as ministers and governors, hoping that the military would help him regain power by integrating them to the government...
Strange thing for an armed force that, prior to 1973, hoped to remain at the margin of politics. It all begun with Allende calling generals to office as ministers, but after that, the whole thing just backfired on him.
On another point of the same topic, lemme ask you all some questions, because I`m ignorant on this:
A) *** How do you think Allende`s government fared on it`s 3 years of duration (1970-1973), in matters of economy, public order, education, moral, etc.?
B) *** If you think that Allende`s government had problems, which ones (in your opinion) were it`s primary causes?
Thanks, bye.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
That`s entirely false. Because, the people that created those problems never took part on the government. On the first years of the junta, only the military took active part on the government and managment of the country.
That post suggests a complete detatchment from reality .
Though on your other "points"
A) Very well initially , until the actions taken to undermine the country kicked in . The same actions BTW that are repeatedly used even today .
B) upsetting the wrong people without taking the nesccasary measures to negate their actions .
You will no doubt have noticed that the bloke in Venezuela has managed to sidestep identical attempts at economic sabotage , and even manged to survive a similar attempt at regime change .
And that statement demonstrates a formidable ignorance about which persons integrated the government of the first years of the military junta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Oh, this is interesting. And which actions where those, in your opinion?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
*trying to control the press?
*arresting, kidnapping, and murdering disidents?
*confiscating their properties by the mecanism of expropiation... and with no monetary compensation?
*creating paralell armed forces?
*nullifying the actions of the police in the protection of dissidents (kinda like making them a public enemy, efectively making that every personal attack on them or on their property, done by anyone, go unpunished)?
*nullifying the disfavourable desitions of the courts of justice, by negating the imperium of their resolutions provided by the assistance of the public force?
Yes, Allende`s government did do that, and more, between 1970-1973. Systematically.
I don`t emit opinion on the government in Venezuela, because I don`t know enough facts to have a serious opinion about it. And I don`t like talking about what I don`t know. That would be disrespectful to the people that actually live on that country.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Cheers!!!
And that Statement shows either that you didn't read what you quoted or didn't comprehend . In fact you appear to be under the impression that Pinochet and his underlings were acting all by themselves for the agrandinshment and cultural benefits to be making for the herioc nation of Chile .Quote:
And that statement demonstrates a formidable ignorance about which persons integrated the government of the first years of the military junta.
Nope , none of that , I mean the securing of alternative finance and trade plus ensuring effective control of vital transport .Quote:
Like:
*trying to control the press?
*arresting, kidnapping, and murdering disidents?
*confiscating their properties by the mecanism of expropiation... and with no monetary compensation?
*creating paralell armed forces?
*nullifying the actions of the police in the protection of dissidents (kinda like making them a public enemy, efectively making that every personal attack on them or on their property, done by anyone, go unpunished)?
*nullifying the disfavourable desitions of the courts of justice, by negating the imperium of their resolutions provided by the assistance of the public force?
Yes, Allende`s government did do that, and more, between 1970-1973. Systematically.
Its a bit of a bugger when you promise people bread , and promise that it will cost the same as it did yesterday then to find that your flour supplyer ain't gonna sell you any and what flour you do have you do not have the means to move it to the bakery ...sort of thing:2thumbsup:
Well, frankly, statements like "That post suggests a complete detatchment from reality." is pretty ambiguous, since you never say why it`s a complete detatchment of reality...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
So, you`re stating that Chile, or the Junta, was governed from the outside?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
If so, please state by who.
If you think that it was directed by some factic powers from the inside, please state by which ones.
BTW, the last words were tendentious...
Alternative finance? Well the quest for finding "alternative finances" resulted in the "marvellous" solution to increase the emission of money in order to finance the enormous public deficit...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
The rest is the apply of monetary theory.
Regarding to other alternative finances: Christopher Andrew and Vasili Mitrokhin, Mitrokhin archive: How 'weak' Allende was left out in the cold by the KGB describing relations between Allende and the KGB, including KGB payments to Allende. The Times September 19, 2005.
He was being financiated from the Soviet Union, via Cuba.
Trade? The economical doctrine of those years was to have a closed market, and to be autarchyc (self supporting, economic independence as a national policy). Allende`s government extremed this position with the illegal apropiation of the means of production of goods and services by the state, including enterprises, mines, transport, etc., no matter they were owned by national or foreign enterprisers or capitals.
Since the State owned most of the economical structure of the country... who`s to blame if the country enters a state of total economical paralysis? USA? CIA? Transnationals? The housewife that buys 2 bags of flour instead of one, because she won`t know if there`ll be something to eat the next week? C`mon...
So, you`re suggesting a boicot, a self boicot, from the own citizens and enterprisers...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Do I have to remind that almost every mean of production in this country, was owned by the State?
Cheers!
once again you fail to read what was written .Quote:
So, you`re stating that Chile, or the Junta, was governed from the outside?
Well if you think that it wasn't funded , aided and supported from the outside , and the overthrown government wasn't hindered , sabotaged and undermined from the outside then you prove my point earlier .....
"That post suggests a complete detatchment from reality."
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Since the State owned most of the economical structure of the country... who`s to blame if the country enters a state of total economical paralysis? USA? CIA? Transnationals? The housewife that buys 2 bags of flour instead of one, because she won`t know if there`ll be something to eat the next week? C`mon...
C,mon , its your country , you should know which element of the transport industry bought most transport of goods and materials to a standstill .
edit to add . It appears that perhaps you are unaware that much of the crap that went on has been declassified for the past 6 years . You know nice stuff like wrecking the finances , blocking trade ,paying for "local" strikes , kidnappings , assasinations .
Hey they even went public and apologised to your country and its people for their actions , maybe you missed it .
Condor is a nice word to look up , so is Fubelt .
Perhaps you might want to inform yourself about events since it seems you views are about as correct as the stuff in the "white book" about Allende .
It could be. But Chile is Chile, Korea is Korea, China is China, you get my point. Communism in China, though brutal and oppresive, was very succesful. That says a lot about their culture. Now let's see Chile.Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
That's a very good point.Quote:
First, let`s compare with cold war struggles around the world. In my opinion, it would have happened something similar to what happened in Vietnam or Korea, only in a much smaller scale. We would have begun with a fraticide fight (which most probably would have extended to neighboring countries), and then we would have had (probably, after what happened in Vietnam those years, I`m not sure) a full scale military intervention of the USA.
That's also a very good point. A war of that kind always is long and costs many lives.Quote:
The death toll would have been counted not in thousands, but in hundreds of thousands or even in millions.
Perhaps. Perhaps it would be only chilean communism. If you get my point.Quote:
Would the extreme leftists had won, defeated the regular army and installed a comunist regime here, in addition of the direct cassualties from the civil war, we would have followed the sad fate of Cuba or North Corea, with thousands of deaths caused by excecutions, deaths in gulags, and because of famine (just like what happened in North Korea and China).
Couldn't agree more. But we've to help that wheel, and it appears that it always avoids the south. Damn wheel!!:laugh4:Quote:
Hehehehe! :rolleyes: Nothing is ethernal, not our 20 year economical bonanza, nor your economical crisis (assuming that you`re argentinean). Everything changes, the wheel of fortuna leaves you looking at the sky in one minute, and squashes you against the ground on another.
Was there a plan (serious or otherwise) to break the territory in different autonomous territories or States?Quote:
No social force was able to govern that thing. There was a complete anarchy.
With the mention of Kelsen, I'd also assume you're a lawyer, or you're at least studying laws. This theory of responsability by hierarchy is original of Clauss Roxin. But it functions exactly to attribute personal responsability when there's a chain of command or at least an organization of functions.Quote:
Yes, that`s right. But that`s political or hierarchical resposability. But personal or direct responsability is another issue, one that should determined by the court.
Well I'm only trying to imply that the average person cares litte about rational cannons.Quote:
I agree with you, but we cannot mistake the public or historical judgment with the legal judgment. Qualifiying someone as legally guilty when there is no res iudicata is erroneous.
Yes I forgot that.Quote:
On the same matter, I must say that he was being judged and investigated, so actually he was being exposed to the organs of the state.
It's a long story. If you analyze Marx and then pass throught the communits who reinterpreted him until you reach Lenin, you'll notice a development in the rol the proletariate played in a socialist State. Lenin amplified the rol of the burgoise for example. Then you read some of the words of Stalin, who was an inspiration for Mao, and you'll notice that he's the first communist activists who, once he's in power, says that the revolution is always happening and the State is the engine of that revolution. By sheer logic, Stalin (a little astute perhaps), ends by stating, the State always stays. As I said, in theory, many communists say that the State in a socialism, or a dictatorship, is only transitory, a result of seizing the power. When there's no more economic differences (wich in turn finishes with the classes) the State dies, slowly. To Marx, and many communists, theory and praxis are one and the same.Quote:
The dictatorship of the proletariate......... transitory? Hmmm, that`s what Lenin said. And Stalin and the party during the 20s... the 30s.... the 40s... well, I think you get my point.
Yes the Pope was an strong force there, making it all public and a shame for whoever rejected his proposition for peace. But the Pope got a few "gifts" on that meeting too...Quote:
Yes, I did. And thank God (and the Pope) we didn`t get to blow eachother`s noses...
¡Igualmente!Quote:
Un gusto!
First, if you want to believe that the Junta recieved economical aid from the outside, and again ignore resolutions like, for example, the Kennedy Anmendment, which leaved Chile with it`s pants down against Velasco Alvarado... (pretty thing for an ally to do), go ahead. Since you are so fond of declaring that I should inform myself, perhaps we both should take a look at plans like Operation Toucan and such too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
And no, I don`t ignore the FUBELT, nor the CONDOR (which has nothing to do with the collapse of the economy in 1970-1973 BTW). But people tend to confuse the intervention with direct control. The extension of CIA`s intervention hardly could have affected a significant part of Chile`s economy in order to be of any efect to the collapse of the economy.
You talk about transport... what use transport is for, when there are no goods to transport?
To believe that CIA`s and USA`s intervention was determinant to the fall of Allende`s regime, is just a cheap justification that leftist use since 1973 itself.
That doesn`t even deserve a comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Yessssssss.....economic sabotage has nothing to do with the collapse of the economy:dizzy2:Quote:
And no, I don`t ignore the FUBELT, nor the CONDOR (which has nothing to do with the collapse of the economy in 1970-1973 BTW).
Are you going out of your way to prove ......."That post suggests a complete detatchment from reality."
:oops:
Well perhaps you had better tell the CIA and the American government , I don't think you could really call them leftist though .Quote:
To believe that CIA`s and USA`s intervention was determinant to the fall of Allende`s regime, is just a cheap justification that leftist use since 1973 itself.
Oh and it wasn't actually that cheap either .:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Damn them kidnappings can be expensive , and its a bit embarrasing when the muppets you pay screw up and kill the victim instead of just keeping them out of the way for a while .:no:
But hey its vital to keep the wrong sort of military people out of politics innit .~;)
Seems like the sort of thread Tribesman has been waiting for. ~:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Let me just say it's gotta be a hot show downstairs since Jeanne and Milton also died this year. The fires are being stoked amidst, you know, all the witness confrontations, interviews, Orlando Letelier's and Victor Jara's testimonies...
:devil:
Well Adrain it isn't everday that someone calls statements from the US government a cheap leftist justification :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Seems like the sort of thread Tribesman has been waiting for.
If I could be bothered I might just go back and sort through all the alternate reality posts from the "hey he may the leader of an illegal murderous dictatorship , but I love him" camp .
And give a piece by piece .....ooops that ain't true ....oops that is clearly false .......ooops that just contradicted what you claimed earlier ......treatment .
But instead I might just ask kraso .
What do you think of your new leader ?
Oh dear another leftist one isn't it , and not only that but a former exile whose family were victims of that warm cuddly dictator who managed to rob your country blind yet you so admire .
Only you're allowed to make those, right? ~;pQuote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Yep Alex I am well known for calling US govrernment statements cheap leftist justifications :dizzy2:Quote:
Only you're allowed to make those, right?
Hey Kraso ...where have you gone ?
I really would like you to put me right on a few things I don't understand .
And no, I don`t ignore the FUBELT, nor the CONDOR (which has nothing to do with the collapse of the economy in 1970-1973 BTW).
What does "make the economy scream" mean ?
who said it ?
when did they say it ?
what was the original cash allocation for it ?
what were the limits set for further cash allocations if the economy didn't scream enough ?
Or would you just like to do a big full page :oops: instead since you appear to have completely ignored Fubelt .:yes:
Also as I ain't too good at economics and stuff like that could you explain how it would be possible to collapse a specific market , like copper for example ?
Could it possibly ..... by a really big stretch of the imagination .....be an identical method to that used against Cuba and its sugar industry ?:inquisitive: