Most powerful faction...

I'd have to give my vote to Russia.

Infantry- Dismounted Boyar Sons and Bedirche Axemen. Dismounted Boyar Sons can whip a unit of feudal foot knights in melee, and also make a nice flanking unit because of their AP ability. The real king of AP and flanking is Bedirche axemen, who are better than Norse Axemen because of their cheap as dirt cost (380 florins).

Archers- You have to hold out until fortress, but then you get probably one of the best ranged infantry units, the dismounted Dvor. These guys have long range, good armor, and a decent melee attack. I'd pit Dismounted Dvor against any unit of infantry, and I consider them a must for mid to late game russian armies.

Cavalry- The real strength of the Russian cavalry isn't in catholic style heavy hitters, but in horse archers like Cossacks. You get a fast cavalry that fires arrows, can sweep up routers, and also chase down enemy light infantry (archers, crossbowmen, etc). If you're looking for something a bit heavier, then Dvor make their dismounted counterparts look a little pale. Since these bad boys are on horses, you have the mobility of a cavalry archer without sacrificing the armor. Tsar's guard are about the equivolent of Gothic knights, only cheaper.

Gunpowder- You aren't shafted here either. With the advent of gunpowder, you can produce Cossack musketeers, the second best gunpowder unit in the game. You also have something those Turks who stole first place don't have, and that's generally western style artillery (basilisk anyone?).



Just about the only thing that isn't great about Russia is that they're orthadox, which means that your priests are about as useful as waterwheels in the sahara.

So my vote goes to russia.

I'm liking Portugal myself.

Early position is good with Jinetes and Javilinmen as your main forces, an easily defensible border between you and the French who are usually more concerned with the English and Milan and/or the Germans. Plus, you can make the Pope easily happy because you're able to attack vile heathens instead of your Christian brothers... after you launch a surprise blitz against the Spanish of course. The African provinces make for some slow crossing but after that the treasures of Egypt, etc await. Plus it's easy to get your merchants to some very profitable areas.

In the late game you've got Aventuros, one of the best pike units there is; Portugese Arquebusiers, one of the best gunpowder units there is; Basiliks, one of the best artillery units there is; Conquistadors and Knights of Santiago, some of the best cavarly there is; and Grande Carracks, the best ships there are... not too shabby.

If you mean the most powerful faction in the sense that "if you had a million dollars riding on the line for you to win the game" who would I choose? Thats a very easy answer, England. I don't believe they have the BEST unit roster, but it is certianly very good. I believe they have without a doubt the best and most secure starting spot. And no, they are not my favorite faction at all, so I'm not biased in this.

Roster-wise, I'd probably say the French and the Turks... but in actuality, the French have to maintain 4 fronts most of the time (Milan, HRE, Spain, England/Danes), and of course the Turks have to deal with the Mongols and Timurids...

Spain is probably the most powerfull all-around faction. Easy borders to defend, very good units, no crippling weakness, except in the ranged department pre-gunpowder... but then again they have Jinetes so it's a toss-up.

portugal is pretty much spanish version 2.0 (better pikes, better guns, better ships)


and word, the english have the most secure starting position... with no threat of attack for your first seven provinces, you can do a lot of things strategically that you can't with the others.... of course there are drawbacks too... for one, it's a really, really, long walk to any crusades

Playing Spain, I'd say them as well - Portugal/Spain, Tomata/Tomato, perhaps for the slightly better units Portugal have . . . Looking at who continually keeps wooping the arse of all the other facrtions I must say Denmark! They have some wickedly strong units and that seems rather obvious to me, as in every campaign I've fought they're doing absolutely amazing AND they have a nice starting position - once they've taken Norway, Sweden and Hamburg, there's only one place to maintain troops . . .
Being Danish myself I love all these Danish units, even though some if not even most seem fairly historically inaccurate (I've had extensive Danish history and never heard of Norse War Clerics for example - there may have been one or two, but whole armies!) . . .

I'd vote for Spain but that may be "current campaign bias" because I'm doing so well with that faction. They have England/Scotland's advantage of geographic protection, but they're right there in the Med to take advantage of sea trade, and they have much easier access to the Holy Lands on crusade. They have a close enemy (Moors) that can be attacked with no consequences to your relation to the Pope, and you can ignore the Mongols and Timurids if you want, just sacking Jerusalem and leaving when convenient.

When it comes to units... they get one of the 3 most powerful navies in the game, they get the incredibly versatile Jinete light cavalry, and a great gunpowder unit in the later game (musketeers). But I think the main advantage is the map position, not the units. Portugal is easy to wrap up early, then you can seal your border against France while mopping up the Moors. From there, you can go anywhere and only deal with two or three fronts at most, instead of being surrounded.

About the only disadvantage I can see to Spain so far, is that they don't have great infantry or archers in the early game, so you have to punt with mercenaries. And conquering the African provinces bogs down the rate of conquest a bit, due to the very long travel times down there. Once Timbuktu is secure though, that's (literally) a gold mine, economically. Spain is the ultimate faction to play if you want a "safe" home base backed up against one corner of the map.

My next campaign will probably be Turks, to see what I can do in a much less secure position.

So far I've played Byzantium, Scots, Russia and now I'm in the middle of my moors campaign. I'd have to say Russia.

Great heavy cavalry (bit weaker than its western counterpart at charge, but not so much), great missile cavalry, great archers and melee infantry, and of course, the famous cossack musketeers.

They don't have a single weak unit.

Also, their starting position is great. A lot of rebel settlements. Conquer first the western ones to cut of poland and hungary and all your problems are solved.

Two problems that russia may have are mongols, and getting to america (unless you really expand westward). I've reached america from the black sea, and, believe me, it is a pain in the rear.

In terms of units France, Turkey, and Venice/Milan are by far the most powerful (Not including Turimids). In terms of power on the campaign map I'd say the Byzantines, HRE, Venice, or England.

I'm gonna have to say Russia and Portugal... Russia has the strongest heavy armored horse archer in the game, Berdiche Axemen are uber (Or will be, presuming CA fix their horribly slow animations), and even at the beginning they have very strong troops. Their strategic position is isolated by virtue of A) being a corner of the map and B) being surrounded by a huge buffer of rebel territories.

They have easy access to the amber fields, and Kiev is a high income province (You should be able to take this easily before Poland or Hungary can if you head straight for it at the beginning of the game, then move east after solidifying your western lines. If Turkey gets Sarkel before you get there it's no big deal, just means they'll have to deal with the Mongols instead of you ;) )

Portugal has the uber combination of musketeers and super elite pikemen... Plus Jinettes for awesome light cav and missile cav in one package... In terms of late game power Portugal has the "perfect" army. And of course they have a great strategic position, wipe up Spain and the Moors and you only need to station an army (Or a fleet) at the land bridge and you're all set on that side.

The moors are surprisingly good as well. Desert Cavalry, Granadine Jinetes, Tuareg Camel Spearmen... Easy control of the gold and ivory in Timbuktu and Arguin... Really good position, much better than the Emoheads in MTW.

Hmm, tough choice but I´d say Milan. No other faction has the economy and the units that Milan can produce from the start. Not rarley they have 2-3 full stacks of good units very fast and expands quickly as Venice also does. In the hands of a human player any of the 4 Italian states are unstoppable. Personally I flavour Russia or the Turks.

I'm going to jump in here and say the byzantines. They've got a sound economic base and can field their best troops almost from the word go, so they've got massive room for expansion in the hands of a good player.

Their only weakness is that they have to fight on two fronts at the very least for the whole game.

i think the game has been fairly well balanced, im a always dominating the game wen it comes to the later stages so my opinion wil be a bit skewed to the earlly to mid-game units. I wouldnt say all factions are equally strong but its fairly close.

turks have an excellent roster - you can win the most crushing victories with horse archers as the ai doesnt cope very well with them + by the later stage they have good infantry and gunpowder units later in the game.

the byzanties are arguably fairly similar to the turks, but the lack good infantry because of the bugged varangian guard.

poland- has pound for pound the best unit in the game in my opinion - the polish noblemen - available from the beggining. they are an excellent ranged unit - a few of these can easily take out generals or heavy cavalry, but their melee abiltiy is good as well and they have very high armour. poland also have excellent heavy cavalry and horse archers but arguable lack a strong infantry unit.

sicily has a wonderfully balanced roster - with most of the typical western army features like excellent cavalry, execellent milita units, good archers and crossbowmen plus a very safe starting position with easy options to expand away from catholic areas. for some reason the never seem to do well when the computer is controlling them - i think because of its reluctance to mount naval invasions so it is forced to push past the very strong italian states to the north.

russia does have a fairly good roster, but their earlly units are not very strong. however because it takes so long to get out of russia you should have the chance to tech up a bit by the time you expand in to germany.

the most powerful ai controlled faction? hmm the danes always do well. poland is hard to fight because their noblemen decimate your cavalry. hungary is similar in that reagrd with their good horse archers. I find the italian cities can be quite hard to fight becasue they seem to be able to pump out loads of large armies with their excellent militia + usually defend their cities with a full stack.

most dissapointingly weak faction - the egyptains - taking crusade targets is never a challenge.

I'd have to say England, simply because of the starting position. Once you secure the British Isles, you can have (if you want) seven perfectly safe cities that will never be touched. Regardless of unit rosters and the like, that's such a huge advantage, especially as if you gobble up enough rebel provinces in France and Burgundy quick enough, you have a mainland empire the same as any other starting faction, in addition to your island kingdom.

Spain/Portugal are up there as well, for similar reasons. Not as good as England, though.

The AI always seems to do well with Denmark in the early to mid game, and then in my experience they'll be supplanted by a central/eastern european power alongside the spread of whichever Italian state has done the best (normally Milan).

While I don't think there is any single most-powerful faction that's above the rest, there are certainly some factions that are better than others. The Turks, for example, get essentially everything: heavy lancers with an AP attack, the best heavy infantry in the game, the best muskets avaliable to any faction, some of the best archers, and plenty of horse archers. They don't have quite the gunpowder artillery selection of some of the other factions, but they are still exceedingly powerful.

I would probably rank either the HRE or Moors right under the Turks in unit selection. You might be surprised at my choosing the Moors, what with all their unarmored crap units, but once you get to the highest levels of their unit roster you can definately field a strong, modern army that can compete with the best the Catholics and Orthies have to offer. The HRE get those nasty Gothics and Reiters plus lots of unique infantry, which is always a good combo.

In my opinion, the Timurids are as close as it gets to an all-powerful faction. Those Elephant Artillery are war-winning units. I managed to get ONE unit of them hired as mercs while playing the Turks, and the all-cavalry army they are in is holding all of italy single-handedly from a horde of Moors. In each battle I fight, the Elephant Artillery routinely finish with half the total kills I got in the battle, usually more. They don't seem to get EXP ever, though.

Still, the Timurids get no decent infantry at all, so even they have drawbacks.

There are definately some factions that are below the pack. The Scots, Byzantines, and Sicilians come to mind. None of them have any real redeeming qualities. They lack the basic, important units of other factions, and most of their unique units aren't nearly as good as those from other factions. Norman Knights are nice, but will lose to any other Catholic high-late era knight. Kataphraktoi aren't bad, but will lose to any other type of heavy lancers with maces. The Scots rely too much on pikes and infantry, two things that are extremely ineffective in M2.

in terms of online MP where units matter the most, I would choose France or the Turks

In campaign, I like Russia, England, Spain/Portugal, Denmark, Milan (best italian one IMO)

france has a lot of fronts to fight, and the turks have to deal with the mongols and timurids.

From a strategy point of view, I have to agee with either of the Catholic "Iberians," Portugal or Spain. I'd also point out that the Moors start with similar advantages, although their unit roster isn't great.

I'll cite the same reasons and add some. As mentioned, Spain or Portugal have a non-Catholic victim to expand against in the Moors. Sacking Cordoba and Grenada gives huge cash advantages too. A few thousand florins go a long way in the early moves. Then there are those two rebel provinces in the east, although one is strongly held by El Cid.

Once you make the jump to North Africa, the Egyptians are far too busy fighting off Crusades to give you much trouble. You can go on Crusade too -- and use it to capture Egypt. After that, you're too rich to kill. You can let the Mongol and Timirud waves ride, and scoop up the weakened survivors.

Finally, converting all those Muslim provinces to Catholicism really puts you in great standing with the pope and builds you up in the college of cardinals.

So, the best Catholic faction is either Spain or Portugal, IMHO.

=======

The best Muslim faction, unit-wise, are the Turks, but you must be a good tactician. You have to fight all the time, so you'd better win.

The best Muslim faction strategy-wise is probably the Moors because of the starting postition already mentioned.

Still, I like Egypt. The opening blitz up the coast brings in much cash. So does sacking Constantinople. The Mongols, frankly, haven't been a problem so far since they are my alllies.

======

Best Orthodox faction? Tough call. Byz are like the Turks. Great units, but they have to fight all the time. I enjoyed Russia. Either/or.

I'll add my vote to the Russian contingent. Cossack Musketeers are simply awesome.

I would vote for France, the armour upgraded Voulgiers wipe the floor with every Infantry (yes, even JHI) but for the danish Halberdiers, if you use the spearwall ability without hold positions. They are all-round units and cheap(!), good in offense (if you have the patience for a good ordered but slow attack) and defence. They also have a good starting position and can get rid of England very early in the game. The scottish guard and horse archers add a lot to their ranged abilities and they have some of the best armoured cavalry and pikemen in the game.
Milan is the only disturbing factor to them, but they are normally in war with every of their neighbours.

After all I think every faction is well balanced.

It's difficult to say because it matters on your criteria. I would completely disregard starting position because it's so easy to pull off a 'barbarian migration' (in my current game as the Turks, I abandoned all starting provinces and took control of Crete, Rhodos and Cyprus. Thanks to the island bug, I had no worry of being attacked and could develop my economy. Best campaign yet). Likewise, comparing only the best units disregards availibility, since you'll likely fight the first 50 or so turns with mostly crappier units.

All italian factions have a super advantage in their militia troops, but despite that I'd pick the Moors. Why?

Infantry: Dismounted Christian Guard is actually better than most dismounted knights. Also the Urban Militia is a great militia unit. However, considering that both of them are somewhat elite units, the overall rating for Moor infantry is average. They have decent spearmen but nothing impressive and until you get the better units, you'd better not rely on infantry to win your battles.

Archers: A poor selection, definitely the Moor weak spot. However, the basic Desert Archer is decent, with both long range and good stamina. Like their basic infantry, not much to rely on but they get the job done.

Cavalry: A very good selection ranging from the basic Arab Cavalry and the city-recruited Tuareg Camel Spearmen, to the Granadine lancers and the Christian Guard, which is equal to the Templar/Hospitaller Knights. They also have spear-throwing cavalry which is great, the fast-moving Granadine Jinetes is probably the best such unit in the game.

Also, one thing which I consider to be very important about a faction's cavalry selection is the availability of at least one fast-moving unit. The lack of such is IMHO very negative, which is a major reason why I'm not too fond of neither England nor Poland.

Gunpowder:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaulTa

With the advent of gunpowder, you can produce Cossack musketeers, the second best gunpowder unit in the game. You also have something those Turks who stole first place don't have[...]

---

Dear Sir, I think what you really meant was third and second ~:wave: Because the best gunpowder unit in the game is the Moor Camel Gunner. Hands down. It's the gunpowder equivalent of the horse archer with all the advantages of the latter combined with the wonders of gunpowder. With long range. And as if that wasn't enough, there's the camels. With the 'freak-out-horsies' bonus. This is the ultimate morale killer, easily able to take out any knights sent after it. It has no equal. There is no army I would rather have than one filled with these guys, backed up by some Christian Guard and Granadine Jinetes. Also there's good artillery(cannons) and better-than-average arquebusiers in the Sudanese Gunners.

All in all, the fantastic later-game units of the Moors more than compensates for their poor earlier units. And that is why, IMHO, the Moors are the most powerful faction in the game. The muslim advantages of Jihad doesn't hurt either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer

There are definately some factions that are below the pack. The Scots, Byzantines, and Sicilians come to mind. None of them have any real redeeming qualities. They lack the basic, important units of other factions, and most of their unique units aren't nearly as good as those from other factions. Norman Knights are nice, but will lose to any other Catholic high-late era knight. Kataphraktoi aren't bad, but will lose to any other type of heavy lancers with maces. The Scots rely too much on pikes and infantry, two things that are extremely ineffective in M2.

---

have you played as the sicilians mate? i would agree their unique units could be a little more outstanding, but they do have a very balanced roster and they certainly have plenty of good basic units. they have your basic and essential spearmen - seargents, armoured seargents and italian spear milita. good missile units - muslim archers and pavise crossbowmen. they have reasonable heavy inf - dismounted normans, sword and bucler men and dismounted broken lances and finally they DO have good cav.
the norman nights might not be quite as good as the late era knights of some factions, but the sicilians do also get chivalric knights which are one of the strongest late knights. besides its rare that you have to rely on head on collision between opposing knights.

Quote:

---

And that is why, IMHO, the Moors are the most powerful faction in the game.

---

Camel Gunners are nice, a very powerful unit.... but iunno if that alone is a faction saver. Have you seen the Islamic navy?

By the time you get to the later portion of the game, where you're going to be getting those Camel Gunners, it's not too much longer until everybody else gets Carracks and you're left with Baghlahs - giving up 12 points in Attack and 8 in Defense... in other words, you better not get your feet wet.

Secondly, Cannons are ok, but that's all you've got... a weaker version of the Culverin. The mainland Christian powers all get Basiliks, which completely pwn your Cannons. Not to mention, your Camel Gunners are useless in a siege, so you can hardly use them as a war-winning unit... a very useful unit, definantly... but I'd say they save the Moors from being out-classed, rather than give them any sort of edge... just like good archers on foot will beat good archers on a horse... good musketeers on foot will beat good musketeers on a camel.

--------------

EDIT: After just doing some unit testing on VH, grassy field... I can say that Knights of Santiago vs. Camel Gunners is mutually assured destruction, The Knights take casualties before they can close, then take even more because they're scared of the camels - but the huge difference in melee ability allows the Knights to dish out heavy casualties - it's a toss up to who flees the field first, but either way, the winning unit is torn to shreds. Also the Knights can close because the Camels are slow. Secondly, Portugese Arquebusiers beat Camel Gunners with 50% casualties... the difference in range hurts them initially, but the larger unit size makes a bigger difference. Lastly, Janissary Musketeers mop the floor with Camel Gunners with 25% casualties.

They remain, a deadly field unit... but there are counters... even good long range archers could hang with them, I tried Sherwoods, and they gave the Camels a good smacking with 33% casualties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Varyar

Dear Sir, I think what you really meant was third and second ~:wave: Because the best gunpowder unit in the game is the Moor Camel Gunner. Hands down. It's the gunpowder equivalent of the horse archer with all the advantages of the latter combined with the wonders of gunpowder. With long range. And as if that wasn't enough, there's the camels. With the 'freak-out-horsies' bonus. This is the ultimate morale killer, easily able to take out any knights sent after it. It has no equal. There is no army I would rather have than one filled with these guys, backed up by some Christian Guard and Granadine Jinetes. Also there's good artillery(cannons) and better-than-average arquebusiers in the Sudanese Gunners.

All in all, the fantastic later-game units of the Moors more than compensates for their poor earlier units. And that is why, IMHO, the Moors are the most powerful faction in the game. The muslim advantages of Jihad doesn't hurt either.

---

I don't know. Camel gunners are better on the field, but you can only recruit them in castles, they are more expensive, both to build and to maintain. Since you can build cossack musketeers in cities, in mid game you are able to produce large quantities of them easily. They are also much more useful on the offensive, since they can be easily rereained in almost every city.
When you are on the offensive with camel gunners, you have to conquer a castle and then spend several turns building both caravan stop and caravan saray, if you want to retrain them. Great unit, but not as versatile as cossack musketeers, IMHO... And of course, cossack musketeers have 120 guns, while camel gunners have 80.

On unit roster alone, I'd say Portugal. Good infantry later on (dismounted conquistadores, dismounted portuguese knights, aventuros) with some of the best gunpowder units (musketeers, portueguese arquebusiers) and decent heavy cav with conquistadores and portuguese knights.

Also I must confess, I hated jinettes in MTW. I hated fighting them, and I didn't play Spain because I didn't like their unit roster. That said, in MT2W I have become a Jinettes believer. They have so far murdered about every infantry unit Spain has sent at me. I would say without a doubt one of the all around best units in the game.


For starting position, probably England (very secure).

The German in me wishes I could say the HRE, but alas.

Quick question - why no Swiss Pikeman in the HRE Unit roster any more? I understand they're mercenaries now, but that rubs me the wrong way. Spain/Portugal get recruitable specialized pikemen, but HRE doesn't?

The HRE have a fairly weak starting position, but i have seen them become a true powerhouse in the hands of the AI. They have access to the same feudal units that others do, and also pavise crossbowmen. and, should they manage to stabilise their position they can be quite a potent economic force.

Their later units are also good, Zwei handers, Gothic knights and Reiters being the most obvious examples, and they have the same later game militia troops as other factions, as well as the ever useful Forlorn hope.

If, when you play, you can survive the first 50 or so turns and take some wealthy territories there is pretty much nothing that can stand in your way, you will have the strategic depth to absorb invasions and muster a force to counter attack, you are well placed to expand in any direction, and with an economy as strong as the HRE's can be, you will have few financial woes.

I would have to say that in terms of starting position though, the English and spanish have the most security, s well as some potent units. with both these factions you should never be fighting on more than 1-2 fronts throughout the game

Regards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IPoseTheQuestionYouReturnTheAnswer

There are definately some factions that are below the pack. The Scots, Byzantines, and Sicilians come to mind. None of them have any real redeeming qualities. They lack the basic, important units of other factions, and most of their unique units aren't nearly as good as those from other factions. Norman Knights are nice, but will lose to any other Catholic high-late era knight. Kataphraktoi aren't bad, but will lose to any other type of heavy lancers with maces. The Scots rely too much on pikes and infantry, two things that are extremely ineffective in M2.

---

I think you haven't played the Byzzies enough. They're one of the greatest factions unit-wise, at least until the late period when they don't get anything new. They're much like the Moors in that you really need to be able to command a pure cavalry army to be successful, but their cavalry is superb. The fact that Kats aren't a match for high-end uber-knights like Lancers and Gothics is irrelevant because you shouldn't be using them much. The Vardaratoi and the Byz Cavalry are what you should be focusing on. If your entire army is mobile missile cavalry it really doesn't matter what the enemy brings to the field, you're going to win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sarmatian

I don't know. Camel gunners are better on the field, but you can only recruit them in castles, they are more expensive, both to build and to maintain. Since you can build cossack musketeers in cities, in mid game you are able to produce large quantities of them easily. They are also much more useful on the offensive, since they can be easily rereained in almost every city.

---

That's true, although that is a strategical advantage, not a tactical one. If you have enough Camel Gunners to begin with, it makes no difference on the battlefield. It's just a matter of what criteria you use to define what "most powerful" mean.

Quote:

---

When you are on the offensive with camel gunners, you have to conquer a castle and then spend several turns building both caravan stop and caravan saray, if you want to retrain them. Great unit, but not as versatile as cossack musketeers, IMHO...

---

Again true, assuming all else being similar(equal losses etc.). That however can largely be countered by having good logistics(sending decimated units home to be retrained) and making sure to have enough units in the first place. The Camel Gunners also move faster on the map than Cossack Musketeers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SMZ

Camel Gunners are nice, a very powerful unit.... but iunno if that alone is a faction saver. Have you seen the Islamic navy?

By the time you get to the later portion of the game, where you're going to be getting those Camel Gunners, it's not too much longer until everybody else gets Carracks and you're left with Baghlahs - giving up 12 points in Attack and 8 in Defense... in other words, you better not get your feet wet.

---

While sea dominance can be crucial, dominance is ultimately decided on the battlefield. Considering that the vast majority of provinces are land-bound to eachother, the quality of the armies is more important than the quality of the navies. A good point, nonetheless. You could however say that it's somewhat countered by the muslim advantages concerning Jihad.

Quote:

---

Secondly, Cannons are ok, but that's all you've got... a weaker version of the Culverin. The mainland Christian powers all get Basiliks, which completely pwn your Cannons.

---

True. But when the best option is an all-cavalry army anyway, you'll only use cannons for sieges, where opponent superiority in artillery is much less important. Artillery only truly matters if it's an integral part of your battlefield tactics.

Quote:

---

Not to mention, your Camel Gunners are useless in a siege, so you can hardly use them as a war-winning unit... a very useful unit, definantly... but I'd say they save the Moors from being out-classed, rather than give them any sort of edge... just like good archers on foot will beat good archers on a horse... good musketeers on foot will beat good musketeers on a camel.

---

They can be used in a siege quite well, as long as you're happy starving the garrisson rather than assaulting. While I do hail them as the best unit in the game, I admit that they're not the best at everything(no unit is). For assaults the Moors have other great units. Also, it's a matter not only of what the unit is capable of one-on-one vs other units, but what they are capable of when combined with other units. In a mixed army, the Camel Gunners are not only more versatile than their dismounted brethren, but they can also more easily compensate for their potential weakness against units such as Musketeers(by having heavier cavalry/infantry that can harass them) than the other way around.

--------------

Quote:

---

EDIT: After just doing some unit testing on VH, grassy field... I can say that Knights of Santiago vs. Camel Gunners is mutually assured destruction, The Knights take casualties before they can close, then take even more because they're scared of the camels - but the huge difference in melee ability allows the Knights to dish out heavy casualties - it's a toss up to who flees the field first, but either way, the winning unit is torn to shreds. Also the Knights can close because the Camels are slow. Secondly, Portugese Arquebusiers beat Camel Gunners with 50% casualties... the difference in range hurts them initially, but the larger unit size makes a bigger difference. Lastly, Janissary Musketeers mop the floor with Camel Gunners with 25% casualties.

They remain, a deadly field unit... but there are counters... even good long range archers could hang with them, I tried Sherwoods, and they gave the Camels a good smacking with 33% casualties.

---

Did you play as the Camel Gunners or as the opponents? Going to repeat your tests playing as the Camel Gunners.

EDIT: finished a few rounds. Won most of them with the Camels either by avoiding the opponent or in the case of the Musketeers, ride ahead while shooting to finish with a charge. The ones I lost were those where I just let the camels stand still and get tied in a shooting contest.

You're right, play styles simply differ. They are the ultimate form of the cavalry based force, which is a world-conquering option. My personal style leans more toward the "balanced" force... lol, I don't like waiting for sieges - and I like being good at most things, rather than perfect at one thing.

As to the tests, I left the Camels in the AI's control, because I knew that the difference between the AI's ability to control them and mine was less than, in particular, my ability to control the Knights and the AI's. If the AI had been in control of the Knights, they would've just sat there and gotten shot to pieces. If they had charged, they would've done so in a start/stop manner, constantly reformed and still gotten shot to pieces. On the other hand, I chased the camels by placing the Knights in Loose Formation, and charging at a point beyond the Gunners, thus the Knights didn't do any stopping to reform, and their faster speed allowed them to catch the Camels - at which point I switched them into attacking... this resulted in both units being slaughtered.

With the gunpowder units, even charging - Janissaries, Cossacks, Portugese Arquebusiers and even Sudanese Gunners will still be able to beat the Camels because their melee stats are better and they have more men... in effect, closing to melee just hurries the Camels demise. This is even more true of many of the long range archer units which have strangely good melee abilities. That is of course, provided that the commanders are equal... I don't doubt that you can still beat the AI... but, lol

The flaw in your Camel Gunners vs. (Insert missile infantry unit here) is that they outrange most (Most!) missile infantry, and they are significantly faster than an infantry unit, so you could easily keep them outside the range of say, Sudanese Gunners or Portugese Arquebussiers, use your entire ammunition store on them, and THEN charge.

In terms of geographical position where you can exert your power and influence in wider range of the map, I vote HRE. One can achieve hegemony there without having to wage war with its bordering factions and maintain a relative peace for much of the catholic world.

I would have conquered all of Europe by now at turn 70 but thought this would give me a greater challenge. I have not as of yet fought a single battle with the France, England, Poland or Hungary. Now I see large cities sprouting and huge armies marching all over Europe for a greater finale.

I've played russian, spanish and venice so far, and venice is absolutely crazy compared to the other 2.

Full line of MILITIA units including long range missiles, cavs and high valor/combat value infantries; with same castle line of units as most catholic factions; plus everything late from pikes to muskets to cannons...

Not to mention venice could buy Bologna from holyroman in turn 1, which puts the country at modest power from the get-go and enables deplomatic relationships with all factions (including papal) on VH campaign.

Russia. No if'sm no's or but's about it. Just watch your...back to protect from the Mongols, and Timurids, but I found that they mostly head to the Middle East.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Musashi

The flaw in your Camel Gunners vs. (Insert missile infantry unit here) is that they outrange most (Most!) missile infantry, and they are significantly faster than an infantry unit, so you could easily keep them outside the range of say, Sudanese Gunners or Portugese Arquebussiers, use your entire ammunition store on them, and THEN charge.

---

true, good point...

so then I guess only Cossacks and Janissaries can hang with them.... still, that's a lot of micro-managing =/

Well, and Reiters would have them for lunch of course. Can't outrun them, they shoot, and fight better. That one's just no contest.

But in the context of a larger battle Camel Gunners are amazing... Reiters are a volley and charge unit, whereas Camel Gunners are long range flankers... Totally different role, and they're quite excellent at it.

As with any mounted missile troop, their value isn't in their one-to-one combat performance, but in their ability to project fire from remote locations.

What I think we can agree on, SMZ, is that the AI will usually lose regardless which of the units it controls. Thus the unit balance is fairly even.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SMZ

With the gunpowder units, even charging - Janissaries, Cossacks, Portugese Arquebusiers and even Sudanese Gunners will still be able to beat the Camels because their melee stats are better and they have more men... in effect, closing to melee just hurries the Camels demise.

---

Again I have experience stating the opposite. In fact, since the Camel Gunners fire on the move, they are excellent at breaking infantry morale. You ride full speed while shooting, making the AI change to loose formation. Then you stop at close range and charge, and then finally just ride through to reform on the other side. Not even the Janissaries can take that, they turn and run. Despite their rather humble stats, the Camels does get the cavalry charge advantage. Quite versatile.

And if you managed to actually charge the camels with infantry, then you must agree that the AI greatly mismanaged the poor creatures.

Little shocked to see nobody mention the Danes.

Simply put, Obudshaers are the meanest infantry unit in Europe.

The Viking (Norse) Archers are also extremely rowdy. They remind me of Samurai Archers in STW, not only are they competent archers but they are very solid in hand to hand.

If you anchor your main battle line with Obudshaers and then protect your flanks with some of the other Danish infantry, well, short of HJI you are going to smash everything in front of you to tiny little bits.

With the very solid melee stats of those Archers, you can actually field shooter armies.

In terms of the Campaign, the Danes have more room to expand than the English and are nearly as isolated. Expansion into the Baltic and Finland will achieve you a rich trading network. Then you can slam into the HRE from the north while they are otherwise occupied.

Obviously there really is no way to state what the single most powerful faction is, however the Danes have some exceptionally powerful units with the ability to grow economically without much chance to come into conflict with a rival power until they are ready.

Quote:

---

What I think we can agree on, SMZ, is that the AI will usually lose regardless which of the units it controls.

---

Aye - and I'll decorate my hat with gizzards!

Nice tactics there too.

If by "most powerful faction" you are asking "what is the easiest nation to win with on Grand Campaign" I'd go with Spain. Once you've mopped up the Moors and brought the Portugese under your wing (for their own good of course!) the African/Med Islands is a cakewalk and adds scads of Florins to the treasury. With some many muslims lands to convert you have the College in your pocket with little and possibly even no effort at all. This is the best blessing of all because sooner or later, France will get excommed and your heavy influence with the Pontifex Maximus will allow you to crusade into into France as a Catholic Hero, with all the acolades that go with a crusade winner! Not as a sectarian troublemaker. From that point the only problem I have had is refraining from taking Jerusalem because I want to go to the Americas and build some conquistadores for fun :2thumbsup:

Sorry for doubling on posts but I can't edit-I also forgot to metion that the Spanish mercantile capabilities are excellent. If, as I have, one leaves the capital in Cordoba, that distance from capital to merchant goodies makes the north european amber very valuable, as are the textiles near Belgium and Venice area, without devaluing the Timbuktu goodies too much (My 10 finance guy is pulling down over 1k per turn on one of the gold veins bvy himself). So, easy access to foes that give you the Pope's loyalty, excellent and varied unit roster, financial excellence within easy reach, corner map location for relative safety and easy-to-manage fronts makes this my choice for 'easiest faction to win Grand Campaign" with, if in fact that is the question

Has no one played Sicily? They seem to have a nice mix no matter what time period you are in. The Norman Knights and dismounted Norman Knights are good reliable units. The Muslim archers are strong, their armored sergeants are good and as you tech up there are some fine units in there. They even have mounted crossbows at the top level of their archery range and their fleets are decent too.

I know that they have been a true pain in the rear when I have to play against them and they are a blast to play...even with the Puerto Rican accents.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fisherking

Has no one played Sicily? They seem to have a nice mix no matter what time period you are in. The Norman Knights and dismounted Norman Knights are good reliable units. The Muslim archers are strong, their armored sergeants are good and as you tech up there are some fine units in there. They even have mounted crossbows at the top level of their archery range and their fleets are decent too.

I know that they have been a true pain in the rear when I have to play against them and they are a blast to play...even with the Puerto Rican accents.

---

I've played Sicily, but they don't impress me compared to Milan and Venice.

The problem with Milan and Venice is... well, Venice and Milan, respectively :laugh4:.

Having started my first campaign with the Portuguese, I have to say they are a very, very powerful faction, better than the Spanish even. They really have it all : Jinettes of Doom, better pikemen, better riflemen, better footmen, better navy, excellent artillery, and of course, the Iberian peninsula itself which is almost up there with the British Isles on the strategical cheese scale. No wonder why they always seem to do so well in my other campaigns : the only thing they may lack is money, and a human player will make good use of Timbuktu to get that too. Scary faction :laugh4: