Do you have any personal rules for MTW?

By personal rules, I mean any special restrictions you apply even though the game allows you to do more?

The few I have are:

1 - never train peasants
2 - never train bodyguard units - only use princes (but I do allow myself to RE-train them to keep up their numbers and to buff them with extra weapons and armour)
3 - never use vanilla units when my faction has something specific - eg when I play Italian factions I never train spears or sergeants, only Italian infantry; as Turks I never train vanilla archers; in VI if I have fyrdman then I don't use any other spears etc etc. The only exception I allow is if the special unit is high-tech, then I will use vanilla units until the tech is ready
4 - as a Catholic faction, only have one Grand Inquisitor

I'm sure there are more, but they're the main ones, really just to role-play and cut the cheese to a minimum :beam: So what rules do you add into the mix to spice it up a bit?

The only rule I can think off.

If the computer game crashes I never restart it. I'll yell at the computer and hit it with a hammer and start a new game.

- Always obey the Pope as long as it does not attack me.
- Never use inquisitors anymore (way too powerful - recent rule)
- Never assassinate the khan when the GH appear (but too tempting sometimes)
- Never attack allies (and never accept to get allied with your alliance enemy to get an excuse - ok if your ally attack one faction you are already allied with)

Not really rules, but I limit myself to one Grand Inquisitor and use him only as a last resort, mostly in cases, in which a Catholic enemy will not accept a cease-fire.
No powerful mercenaries early.
No attacking one catholic faction just to get a warning so that I can attack another. Once I get a warning from the Pope, that's it for the next 10 years as far as smaller catholic factions are concerned.
No ridiculous expansion, such as sending a Crusade to Lithuania as the Spanish early in order to establish a base in the Baltic.

I have a couple sub-conscious rules, that are similar to those posted already. I barely ever use assassins or inquisitors. I likewise don't do any ridiculous expansion.

I never use Assassins or Grand Inqs. They're just way too overpowered and don't set a realistic tone to the gameplay (IMO). In fact, if you train your Assassins properly, you can practically wipe out an entire faction just by killing off its heirs! Not very realistic and not much fun either. I like to stick with general warfare as a means to win (or lose) a campaign. I will use special units, however (such as priests, bishops, princesses, etc.), to go on special spying missions, which I would say is not too unrealistic.

Here some of the limitations I've set for myself:

1.) I don't purposefully station artillery with my defensive armies. They're too likely to kill the attacking general, thus robbing me of a hard-fought and well-deserved victory (or ignominious defeat, if I'm unlucky :wink:).

2.) The only mercenaries I hire are artillery crews. Exception to this rule is I'll sometimes stick mercs in a Crusade.

3.) No more than 3-4 Inquisitors at a time, and no more than 1 Grand Inquisitor at a time.

4.) I don't employ more than a few units of "elite forces" (Hashashin, Sherwood Foresters, etc.) at a time.

5.) I don't spam Jihads. Only one Jihad marker per target province.


There's probably a few more, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

Some interesting examples of restraint amongst total warriors :2thumbsup:

You've reminded me of some of my others:

- never break an alliance by attacking, only if I get the "chose your allies" parchment (or by being back-stabbed!) [Having said that, I broke that rule just last night, in a Burgundy XL game - the French sent an Inquisitor after my only high-acumen governor so I retaliated by invading Isle de France where their king was. Obviously he abandoned the province and it was razed to the ground, leaving only farms and the church standing. I'm now milking it as a cash-cow and training ground against rebellions and loyalists :beam: I also assassinated the Inquisitor, and the next two that allies sent into my lands. We''l have none of that here, thank you!]

- as a catholic, never ally with muslims, and rarely with orthodox factions

- I try to avoid exploits, like the two papal warnings one, and generally I try to do as the god-bothering interferer suggests until it's time to crush him and keep him on a leash :beam:

- crusades and jihads to be used sparingly, and mercenaries are for emergencies or really cool units like longbows...

Martok, you have better willpower than I have -- I can't resist artillery :clown:

- Put wife outside
- Barricade door
- Open Beer
- Turn on computer, launch TW and start campaign
- Hard Difficulty only
- No Inns (thus no mercenaries)
- 1 Grand Inquisitor
- 2 Inquisitors
- 1 Jihad per target province, 1 jihad trained at a time, and only 1 on standby
- Never attack the pope unless attacked
- Never attack another catholic faction to reset the two papal warnings (exploit)
- Janissaries and other elite units used very sparingly
- No artillery except in sieges, or if I just happen to end up in control of some.
- Assassins only used defensively.
- No razing, whatsoever.
- No farming for rebellions
- No peasants (edit- almost forgot these!)

As to the attacking of allies. Your faction leader loses influence for this and loses allies, so it can in fact make the game harder under some circumstances. Strategically losing that alliance before attacking, by allying with their enemy, is more of an exploit in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

- Put wife outside

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:laugh4:

1. Play on expert.
2. Win. :knight:

I don t have personal rules (yet) but I do like to split the whole campaign into manageable aims, otherwise I lose concentration and get confused.

for example, I always make it an aim to get Constantinople if I play as a muslim faction, then to build a Grand Mosque there. Sort of personalised GAs I suppose.

Oh, I did forget to mention, I never bribe enemy factions. This can definitely tip the balance in your favor if you have a lot of cash, which I usually do. And I never use mercs, either. To me, mercs seem to be another way of "buying" your way to victory (not only that, but there's something about not being able to rebuild a unit after battle that, for some reason, just utterly bothers me!)

When I self impose myself a rule, it is in an attempt to make the game a bit more realistic and not necessarily to make up for the AI's shrotcomings. This is also the reason I prefer playing mods - more factions make for a crowded map and expansion is tougher, and I especially like the MedMod (and Pike and Musket to an extent) in the way it limits troops to certain homelands, and mercenaries are a resource. Also, to Crusades and Jihads in the MedMod require expensive structures and take a lot of time (10 turns per crusade and 5 per Jihad) and money to be built, rendering the spamming tactic useless.
Therefore most issues that required some sort of a self imposed rule in MTW/VI are addressed in one way or another in the various mods, and the only thing I try to avoid are AI's exploits, such as the Papal warning or raising structures for cash (The AI never does it, even in MedMod in provinces with structures it cannot really use). The only exploit I use is the killing of prisoners. It is an exploit because the AI never does it, but as it tends to eventually lower morale, I think doing it is OK.
I have no problem with back-stabbing though - it is realistic, and the AI uses it. Same with artillery - the AI uses it, so I do not have a problem with using it either, and personally I have never been able to kill a general with it. And I do not have a problem with mercenaries, as long as I do not employ Kwarizmian or Alan cavalry as the Danes in 1091 - it just does not seem right. In reality, mercenaries were widely used in the Middle Ages and it is a pity the AI never hires any. As far as brioberies go, I consider them fair - the AI has successfully bribed my generals on a few occasions, and it constantly bribes rebels.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

(and Pike and Musket to an extent) .

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How good is P&M? I've been thinking of down loading it. The fantasy of being John Churchill marching around in Belguim.:laugh4:

P&M is enjoyable, it has some pretty features.

I can recommend Pike and Musket, well worth the download time :2thumbsup:

I don't have a problem with bribery (except when the AI does it to me, of course :laugh4: ) Usually by the time you've got cash to throw around the game's pretty much won anyway -- so I don't see that bribery is any more "buying" victory than having a production line of troops flying out of every province. I probably use it more for ending sieges than starting field battles, but on occasion I'll bribe a stack of rebels if they have interesting troop types (just for the variety). And of course, with some factions bribery is a non-starter, eg HRE in the early period can barely afford to train peasants, let alone bribe anyone :beam:

As for razing - I do it rarely, and usually out of desperation, to cripple an enemy province I can't expect to hold, in the style of the chevauchee. But when I do raze, I always leave farms and churches standing.

I'm obviously not as strict as some of you, but I have a few rules nonetheless:

- Don't bribe
- Don't farm generals
- No colonies (ie taking Livonia as Genoa or something)
- Play as historically as possible

I don't use assassins, inquistors, spies or even emisarries that much, but that's no rule, I'm just not very interested in such. I try to keep a few assassins at home, training them by killing most emissaries that enter my kingdom and then use them to rid me of inquisitors or similar. I sometimes spam spies in enemy provinces to weaken them though.

-No bribing
-No backstabbing of allies
-No colonies
-No rushing at the start

That's all, although I may have forgotten some of the ones I used before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by r johnson

How good is P&M? I've been thinking of down loading it. The fantasy of being John Churchill marching around in Belguim.:laugh4:

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Hmm he really is amongst the historical heroes for England in the mod :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

//hero name date, c, d, p, a, l, v, TYPE ID_REGION PORTRAIT
"Robert", "Blake", 1638, 5, 4, 3, 6, 5, fearsome3, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, 19 //
"Francis", "Walsingham", 1563, 3, 4, 3, 6, 5, no_v, SPY, ID_LIMBO, 20 //
"Robert", "Cecil", 1572, 3, 4, 3, 6, 5, no_v, SPY, ID_LIMBO, 20 //
"Robert", "Cecil", 1573, 0, 4, 3, 6, 5, paranoidc1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"Robert", "Devereux", 1571, 3, 3, 3, 4, 5, charming1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, 21 //
"George", "Goring", 1619, 2, 3, 2, 3, 5, drunk2, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"John", "Byron", 1620, 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, mightywarrior2, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"William", "Cavendish", 1622, 1, 2, 3, 4, 3, bad_sieger1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"prince", "Rupert of the Rhine", 1621, 4, 4, 3, 4, 5, mightywarrior3, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, 10 //
"Edward", "Montagu", 1623, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, no_v, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"Ferdinando", "Fairfax", 1624, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5, bad_attacker1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"Thomas", "Fairfax", 1627, 3, 2, 2, 4, 5, fearsome1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"John", "Hawkins", 1551, 3, 4, 1, 5, 5, courageous3, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, 8 //
"Francis", "Drake", 1554, 1, 4, 2, 3, 5, mightywarrior3, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, 9 //
"Martin", "Frobisher", 1559, 1, 3, 2, 3, 5, mightywarrior2, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"Henry", "Seymour", 1553, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, mightywarrior1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"Robert", "Dudley", 1569, 1, 2, 3, 3, 6, charming1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"Charles", "Churchill", 1665, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, mightywarrior2, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"William", "of Cadogan", 1681, 1, 2, 3, 5, 4, witty3, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"John Churchill", "of Marlborough", 1672, 6, 2, 3, 4, 5, fearsome4, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"George", "Monck", 1630, 4, 2, 2, 3, 3, captured1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"John", "Lambert", 1626, 3, 2, 4, 3, 5, fearsome1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"Charles", "Fleetwood", 1625, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, mightywarrior1, GENERAL, ID_LIMBO, -1 //
"George", "Carew", 1583, 3, 5, 2, 3, 4, paranoidc2, GENERAL, ID_IRELAND, -1 //
"Oliver", "Crommwell", 1628, 4, 5, 7, 5, 5, fearsome3, GENERAL, ID_WESSEX, 2 //
"Aedhan", "daDiabhal", 1555, 1, 7, 0, 6, 3, killer3, GENERAL, ID_IRELAND, -1

clearly the best general for this faction.





My set of home rules ?

- historically acurate armies if possible,
- regional armies if I need to use non-national forces,
- assassinations and inquisition not used too often,
- bribery almost never in use,

Since I haven't played 'vanilla' for ages and I don't like classical medieval mods I don't have too many problems from the lists above.:book:

I always try to play as historic as possible - so that means GA not conquest. I do bribe and hire mercs because that is historic. I also try to use agents, assasins in a historic way as opposed to training them up on peasants. my assasins do start on emisaries, but only of enemies not allies and it is always to train up for going for the big boys.
I try to go with the religion side of things as well. I often try to obey papal warnings and requests and often try not to attack factions of the same religion - well, until they attack me!!
I never use seige artillery in open battles and, if my faction has a "national troop type" such as English longbows, I will always use those as opposed to a type which is available, better, but not historic - e.g. loads of arbs in an English army.
I also try to be surprised by the Horde arriving - but that is difficult.
I think the game benefits from trying to be a bit historic - I know it is in the end fairly unhistoric, if only in the fact that nobody conquered all of europe in the middle ages. However, I am now tending to play up to the point where victory is inevitable then stopping rather than playing through to world domination - so i suppose that is another rule.
However, I suppose my main rule is to take a chance - the game is more interesting if you are a bit stretched, out of money and you are being attacked by several factions. Rather that then turtling for ages until you have a massive bank balance and uber troops before attacking somebody.:2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by r johnson

How good is P&M? I've been thinking of down loading it. The fantasy of being John Churchill marching around in Belguim.:laugh4:

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Here is a link to a topic that contains some info
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=58346

I like that the homelands concept is applied in this mod too, but there are more region-specific troops available to most factions compared to the MedMod. The mod also has three different periods, and a variety of factions based on the starting date. No GA achievements unfortunately, but cegorach has done everything he could do as a modder to create a truly unique and historically accurate mod. This is the only mod where you can really have a go at an AI with large technologically advanced armies of gunpowder cavalry and infantry and lots of pikes. It is not my favorite period when it comes to military history, but I had plenty of fun destroying hundreds of slow armored pikemen using only some cool horse archers and overrunning the world as the Kazan Khanate with armies of tatars and muslim peasants - nothing more rewarding than being the absolute underdog and winning against all odds, incurring humiliating defeats to armies which not only have a numerical superiority to yours, but also surpass you technologically by centuries. And the cherry on top of the icecream for me was a specific unit in the tatar roser called Kipchak Asker (Cumans, basically), who use fire arrows - I do not think this has any impact on their stats, but it looks absolutely spectacular when several units fill in the sky with fire and smoke and well worth trying out the mod just to see this.

King Kurt brought up another rule I set for myself. As much as possible, I try to not prepare for the GH. Goodness knows it's hard, but I do my best. Of course, it's easier for me as the Egyptians/Fatamids--if I lose territory to the Mongols, I can always just Jihad them to death. ~D

If playing early -
Prepare the ground the GH move into initially with level 4 farming, and as much build up as possible in the time remaining. No grand inquisitors. No assassinations of generals. No bribery. Trading gives equal money to me and the faction with the port.

mfberg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mfberg

If playing early -
Prepare the ground the GH move into initially with level 4 farming, and as much build up as possible in the time remaining. No grand inquisitors. No assassinations of generals. No bribery. Trading gives equal money to me and the faction with the port.

mfberg

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Hehe, I tend to do the exact opposite when dealing with the GH (if I'm playing as an Eastern faction - which I rarely do - mostly the Cumans or Volga Bulgars). I sieze Khazar quickly, build it up (although I don't build the Forest Clearing as it's indestructable), pump as many soldiers and money as possible from it, then delete it all and evacuate it a few years before 1230 so that rebels will have time to appear and at least briefly stall the horde. I sometimes keep a fort so that the Horde will be occupied for even longer:clown: Not very historical, and not very brave, but then again, I really don't like the GH coming and messing up all the political balance.

Never use Inquisitors
Always attempt to use faction specific units (ie. choose over non-specific if affordable)
Never use artilary (even when attacking castles, its just more fun, winning with art is too easy...)

+ i agree with caravel,

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- Barricade door
- Open Beer

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:2thumbsup:

It is off-topic, so I will hide it.:book:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[QUOTE=Kavhan Isbul]

Quote:

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Homelands concept is applied in this mod too, but there are more region-specific troops available to most factions compared to the MedMod.

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Was necessary since comparing to MedMod virtually every faction has its own national units ( if it is justified) which are present in historically correct area - sometimes only 2 provinces...

Quote:

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The mod also has three different periods, and a variety of factions based on the starting date. No GA achievements unfortunately, but cegorach has done everything he could do as a modder to create a truly unique and historically accurate mod.

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Not yet. I will do everything I can for the last release for MTW1 engine - the incoming PMTW 2.0 - 5 campaigns, 150 new units (adding that to about 600 already present), new castle maps and various other changes.

Quote:

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Kipchak Asker (Cumans, basically), who use fire arrows - I do not think this has any impact on their stats

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It has. The firearrows are slightly more deadly than anything and useful for castle attacks if the castle is small enough.

I
-don't demolish buildings in captured provinces.
-use assasins and inquisitors with moderation
-use only 1 jihad per target province
-don't attack allies
-try to use ballanced armies, instead of using half the slots for elite units
-don't get rid of crappy heirs on purpose. I use them to fight risky battles though, to try to improve them

That's about it, I think.

In my current Russian game I have some rules.

Like...

1. Never betray my fellow Orthodox. The Byz are my friends.

2. Never trust Poles, Huns, or Turks... -_-

3. Avoid continental European war. Russians in Toulouse and Leon is just odd.

4. Defend the faith. In my game the Byz are too week to hold the Orthodox lands in north Mid east so I do it so he can conncentrate on other things.

5. I also try to hold Lithuanina, Scandinavia, and the Balkans. Russia is more or less a country made of Slavs and Scandinavians so I try to hold both. I suppose my Grand Prince is very Nationalist. Thesse regions are also historic targets of the Princes and Czars.

My personal rule - learned from experience - is to switch the game off in time for at least 4 hours sleep before work (6 hours during extended campaigns).

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Originally Posted by marcusbrutus

My personal rule - learned from experience - is to switch the game off in time for at least 4 hours sleep before work (6 hours during extended campaigns).

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LOL! :laugh4: That's one of my personal rules as well--especially since I'm an "old man" now (30). ~D On weeknights, I always turn off my game early enough so that I can get at least 6 hours of sleep. (On the weekends, of course, I stay up until all odd hours of the morning. ~;))

Recently, I've decided to use rules myself. Starting a new campaign as Serbia/Early/GA/Hard/XL, in fact (also set up one as the Bohemians just in case I feel the urge to play as them).

Usually, though, I prefer to play small nations and not larger developed ones. I like forging nations, not have them already forged. I don't play High or Late, really, but then again, they also have something to offer - different factions, different starts, less time to win (I have a fettish about winning - I just don't care about winning, just as long as I can survive to the end of the campaign, or until I'm bored with the current campaign - it's all in the empire management for me, really).

I'm being influenced by M2:TW, actually, as concerns some of my new rules. I can't play it at the moment because...*grumble* Christmas Day, I was happy to have the game as a present, and felt the novelty of it just as I had two Christmasses previous with RTW...what happens? I find that the dye on the reflective side has run, so no DVD drives can register the DVDs! My bro and mother are going about replacing it for me (in the meantime, I can finish this semester at uni, which ends in one week...LOL...nice timing, I think M2:TW is refusing to be played until my work is out of the way...LOL! And more mods will be available to fix the shortcomings of the game, too, the longer I have to wait).

I'm deciding that my armies need more militia units in them. Urban Militia, Militia Seargents...low-tier units, really. Simply because there were rarely professional armies around full of Armoured Spearmen and Feudal Men-at-Arms, etc. The more professional armies came later. Blame M2:TW's recruitment system for this. And history. Can't forget that. Blame history. LOL!

Also, I'm gonna attack Byzantium and take Greece from them as my first goal. BUT...I have a story lined up to explain that. The Byzantine Emperor has been encroaching in on Serbia's sovereignty, and has demanded more subservience to his forces. Tzar Vukan I is defiant, though, and has a vision of his nation being independent once more - and will fight for it if need be. The only way the war can end is if the Byzantines ask for a ceasefire, not the other way around - i.e., no surrender by Serbia, instead the Byzantines need to agree to Serbia's independence.

I now employ .matteosartori. because I want to see what goes on over the map. More exciting that way. At least I can't see much in the enemy provinces, only those in command of garrisons, armies, etc, and the agents.

I don't like uber-expansion either. I always turtle, or blitz a few lands and consolidate those lands as my rightful homelands.

Now, I'm edging towards no reloads, also. And I use the green generals command line, so my generals will die and take their much-adored personality with them, giving me trouble as to if his successor is worthy of keeping their titles, etc, or needs to have them removed and assigned to someone else...

And looking at the posts here, mercenaries might be a good idea to use more. I remember from Wikipedia reading something about some armies being largely mercenary.

A challenge I would like is this: I heard there is a "Green Generals" Command line so that when a general dies it´s vices/virtues get reset. How is it added?

"C:\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe" -green_generals

I used to use this alot, but I've found that the AI seems to suffer much more than I do. I seem to develop good generals and hold onto them while developling more. The AI deploys them into battle in severely battered units of a few men and throws their lives away. It will also send a atack containing more than one good general and they often get killed in battle also. It's alot easier to deal with the Byzantine with that cheat on IMHO.

Hmmm, I don´t know. The computer seems to rush it´s generals to death more often than not anyway, and having to switch titles around (if you want to keep your appointed lords as "the best for their appointed role) gives more dynamism to the political side of the game (and increases severely the risk of civil war, I guess). Anyway, I can´t say without having tried.

One note: does dread affect anything other than province loyalty?

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

One note: does dread affect anything other than province loyalty?

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Dread affects nothing else. It certainly has no effect on the battlefield.

A pity. It would be nice that scant mercied, paranoid, swift justice unit leaders had a tendence to induce routs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

"C:\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe" -green_generals

I used to use this alot, but I've found that the AI seems to suffer much more than I do. I seem to develop good generals and hold onto them while developling more. The AI deploys them into battle in severely battered units of a few men and throws their lives away. It will also send a atack containing more than one good general and they often get killed in battle also. It's alot easier to deal with the Byzantine with that cheat on IMHO.

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Can you be more specific how to activate the green generals command? IMO this is not a cheat, just a more realistic feature. Thanks.

As far as I understand, he means editing the desktop link to "Medieval-Total war.exe", and adding after the path ( which is "c:\medievaldirectory\medievalstartingfile.exe") -green_generals

And I agree, I don´t deem as a cheat something which isn´t really an advantage, but just a "feature" (realist or not). You lose your dread, steward, and builder bonuses, and the two last are very hard to regain. As for random virtues and vices, they may or may not reappear. I think it dynamizes the game. And it does add a degree of realism.

I still do not get it, and I do not use a desktop link.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

A pity. It would be nice that scant mercied, paranoid, swift justice unit leaders had a tendence to induce routs.

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When MTW was still early in development, CA had originally hoped to include that as well. Unfortunately, it never made it into the final build for whatever reason. I suspect it may have upset the game balance overly much - since unit morale can be pretty sketchy as it is - and they just weren't able to find a way to make it work.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

I still do not get it, and I do not use a desktop link.

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You cannot just double click on the executable. You have two choices:

1) Make a Desktop shortcut to your MTW.exe file. Once this is done, edit it

from: C:\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe

to: C:\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe --green_generals.

2) You can use the "Run..." in the Start Menu, and type C:\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe --green_generals into the prompt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

You cannot just double click on the executable. You have two choices:

1) Make a Desktop shortcut to your MTW.exe file. Once this is done, edit it

from: C:\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe

to: C:\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe --green_generals.

2) You can use the "Run..." in the Start Menu, and type C:\Total War\Medieval - Total War\Medieval_TW.exe --green_generals into the prompt.

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Thanks a lot.

I've added a new "rule" for my current campaign (only cos I haven't got around to doing the mod to make it permanent yet :beam: ). I'm playing an early Irish campaign in XL, and was rather disappointed after playing VI to see that they're able to train archers. So I'm doing it without training archers, only using bribed ones (eg the 120 rebel longbows from Wales), and I shall only have "specials" from other provinces I may conquor. I haven't ruled out mercenary archers but my very few inns are very empty right now...

I will have the Welsh longbows when they become available, and I guess I'll take turcopoles if I ever get that far from home. Don't know yet whether genoese sailors will be available if I take Genoa (but I just allied with them so I'm not going to find out too soon...)

Also I'm only allowing myself armoured spearmen. That's gonna be fun when I get to the desert campaign :clown:

Now I have to suppress a French 6-province re-emergence, that cropped up after the Danes and Spanish attacked me. What a year for the :furious3: Pope to die, I was looking forward to getting re-communicated after the old Pope's disapproval of me exterminating the HRE, English, Scots and French.

A personal tip for early expansion:
Everybody should seek control of those provinces around the black sea, because they just become so rich later on, especially Kiev and Khazar, if you install some good governors there. Besides, it allows you to see what's going on around the black sea, the byzantium and arabs would inevitably start fighting each other right from the beginning, you need to choose your ally carefully. And lastly, it allows you to create a pathway to Baltic provinces, especially Lithuania.

But you may wonder how you're going to occupy those places if you're so damned far away from there, well i'd say you should use your emissary to bribe rebel leaders, they're usually very cheap (for about 2000 florins), i suggest you bribe the rebels standing on Khazar first (safer as it's more isolated) then Kiev, install good governors there so the peasants don't get too angry about you, or else you move some troops from Kiev to Khazar to ensure the security of Khazar first, and a formidable peasant army would emerge on Kiev that prevents other factions from taking it, now use your bribe again.

Or just send a crusade. But I dont see the point in occupying a province that will need a damn large garrison in order to survive when the mongols arrive, just to check the activities of Byzantium, which you can do with a ship in the black sea, if you´re really interested in that.

i only launch Crusades against areas which were historically targets (so the baltic states are fair game as is the ME). i never launchCrusades against Catholic factions as so far as I am aware this never happened.

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Originally Posted by Don Esteban

i never launchCrusades against Catholic factions as so far as I am aware this never happened.

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Maybe not, but I still feel no compunction about taking advantage of another faction being ex-commed -- I enjoy having the chance to "liberate" people from their heretical rulers. ~D The French and HRE are the most frequent targets of my inter-Catholic Crusades, but I'll happily send one against any faction that has fallen out of the Pope's good graces!

Oh, and welcome to the Org, Don Esteban. Good to see you here! ~:cheers:

Actually, Pope Innocent III declared a crusade against the Cathars in Southern France. That is how the king of France became powerful in Southern France, which had been a contested region before that time. He provided the troops to crush the Cathars (considered heretics by the Catholics) You can find more about it on the web under the name Albigensian Crusade.

Also, a crusade was declared against Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II. So crusades against disgraced Catholics are probably legit historically.

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Originally Posted by Brandy Blue

Actually, Pope Innocent III declared a crusade against the Cathars in Southern France. That is how the king of France became powerful in Southern France, which had been a contested region before that time. He provided the troops to crush the Cathars (considered heretics by the Catholics) You can find more about it on the web under the name Albigensian Crusade.

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I was actually going to bring that one up, but then I decided I didn't need to justify my inter-Catholic Crusades for historical reasons -- if the Pope says it's okay, then that's all the reason I need. ~D

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Originally Posted by Brandy Blue

Also, a crusade was declared against Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II. So crusades against disgraced Catholics are probably legit historically.

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Really? I knew Frederick was excommunicated, but I didn't realize the Pope had actually called for the other nations of Europe to gang up on him as well. Interesting.... :book:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Maybe not, but I still feel no compunction about taking advantage of another faction being ex-commed -- I enjoy having the chance to "liberate" people from their heretical rulers. ~D The French and HRE are the most frequent targets of my inter-Catholic Crusades, but I'll happily send one against any faction that has fallen out of the Pope's good graces!

Oh, and welcome to the Org, Don Esteban. Good to see you here! ~:cheers:

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Thanks for the welcome :beam:

I guess crusading against the French would be acceptable....

What I do love (as Egypt) is launching multiple Jihads at any crudaders who actually succeed in taking my lands.

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Originally Posted by Don Esteban

Thanks for the welcome :beam:

I guess crusading against the French would be acceptable....

What I do love (as Egypt) is launching multiple Jihads at any crudaders who actually succeed in taking my lands.

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Errrmmm..... :tomato2:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Errrmmm..... :tomato2:

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What's wrong with that? Works fine as far as I can tell.....~:confused:

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Originally Posted by Don Esteban

What's wrong with that? Works fine as far as I can tell.....~:confused:

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Some players feel that spamming multiple Jihads against a province to be a "cheese" tactic. I used to do so myself, but eventually I realized it was just a little too easy for me, and so now I only launch one Jihad per target province. To each his own, however. :yes:

Back in the day I remember losing Georgia to the Mongols once and declaring 15 jihads to get it back....

Shameful... :shame:

As with Martok I'm a one jihad per province man these days. :beam:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Some players feel that spamming multiple Jihads against a province to be a "cheese" tactic. I used to do so myself, but eventually I realized it was just a little too easy for me, and so now I only launch one Jihad per target province. To each his own, however. :yes:

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Well I can see their point - although i would consider sending repeated Crusades from different Catholic states to be similar - In reality how many crusades were there? Lots less than in the typical MTW campaign!

Of course the indiscriminate use of Assasins and Inquisitors is just as bad - Asyou say each person should be true to their personal rules.

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Originally Posted by Don Esteban

Well I can see their point - although i would consider sending repeated Crusades from different Catholic states to be similar - In reality how many crusades were there? Lots less than in the typical MTW campaign!

Of course the indiscriminate use of Assasins and Inquisitors is just as bad - Asyou say each person should be true to their personal rules.

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There's a big difference. Crusades can only be declared one at a time, and only with the pope's permission, they can only be targeted at non catholics or excommunicated catholics. Jihads can be produced in bulk and then sent after one of your lost provinces en masse. Even if the first jihad to get there gains the province with ease, the other jihads are allowed to get there also and are treated as successes. The result it that you gain a lot of troops, often Nizaris and others, and your king gains a massive amount of influence. Losing a province becomes not such a bad thing after all. With Imams in your provinces zeal goes through the zealing and you can exploit spam jihads to create emergency armies that can appear in the blink of an eye, with good fleet coverage you can ship them out anywhere. All you have to is send a regular stack first to take the province for the first time. After that you can spam to your hearts content. This is why many see it as an exploit.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

There's a big difference. Crusades can only be declared one at a time, and only with the pope's permission, they can only be targeted at non catholics or excommunicated catholics. Jihads can be produced in bulk and then sent after one of your lost provinces en masse. Even if the first jihad to get there gains the province with ease, the other jihads are allowed to get there also and are treated as successes. The result it that you gain a lot of troops, often Nizaris and others, and your king gains a massive amount of influence. Losing a province becomes not such a bad thing after all. With Imams in your provinces zeal goes through the zealing and you can exploit spam jihads to create emergency armies that can appear in the blink of an eye, with good fleet coverage you can ship them out anywhere. All you have to is send a regular stack first to take the province for the first time. After that you can spam to your hearts content. This is why many see it as an exploit.

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Hmmm, food for thought. I must agree that the influence gain is highly unreasonable - it should only count once per province.

Perhaps on the next Campaign i'll try the one Jihad rule as well.

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Originally Posted by Don Esteban

In reality how many crusades were there? Lots less than in the typical MTW campaign!

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On the other hand, in reality, a crusade wasn't something you did (or rather undertook) once you had built a chapter house and could afford a few hundred florins. In reality, it wasn't 2000 or less men marching and - hopefully - conquering in the name of their country. It was a national affair, often with the king as a participant himself and with tens of thousands of people in them. It was something that European contries signed treaties just to get to do, not a side affair while the major part of your troops were occupied in fighting other Catholics.

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

On the other hand, in reality, a crusade wasn't something you did (or rather undertook) once you had built a chapter house and could afford a few hundred florins. In reality, it wasn't 2000 or less men marching and - hopefully - conquering in the name of their country. It was a national affair, often with the king as a participant himself and with tens of thousands of people in them. It was something that European contries signed treaties just to get to do, not a side affair while the major part of your troops were occupied in fighting other Catholics.

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True but Crusades were also usually composed of more than one nation (who often took different routes, fought amongst themselves etc) and the majority of particpants were untrained soldiers. Also the atrition rate should be much higher to reflect disease. i gues there's no way to reflect something like that accuratly.

Lkewise the Jihads should also be much arger than a few hundred men (which is the best argument for spamming Jihads but as has been pointed out this goes too far in the other direction and has other problems as well).

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Originally Posted by Don Esteban

Lkewise the Jihads should also be much arger than a few hundred men (which is the best argument for spamming Jihads but as has been pointed out this goes too far in the other direction and has other problems as well).

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They should have taken longer to build ,cost more, require a larger donation to the pope, require you to be at piece with your fellow catholics, be a lot larger and be more flexible regarding their movements. e.g. I should be able to camp the crusade at venice and wait for fleets to be in position to transport them into the objective province. They also need to take away the dependency on the chapter house, and have the crusade as an option that requires you to send an emissary to the pope. Having the chapter house should enable you to recruit the order knights (in the same way that the inns recruit mercenaries.) Unfortunately you can't mod them, apart from their cost.

You can increase the cost and the time it takes for a crusade to be built, which is what Wes has done in MedMod and the end result is quite nice - playing with the Cumans for over 200 years I saw only one Crusade, which the French managed to send to Tripoli by sea, using the fleets of the Genoese and the Sicilians. Another good feature of the MedMod crusades is the unique, unobtainable otherwise troops, and the large numbers of them per crusade - not just a few units, but a full stack. Same applies to Jihads - I am yet to see one in the MedMod which I have not built myself. With 5,000 florins per jihad and a grand mosque as a requirement, which is much better than the cheap and easy to build ribat if you ask me, they are simply unaffordable and far less effective. While this is not a perfect way to deal with jihads and crusades, it works nicely.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Back in the day I remember losing Georgia to the Mongols once and declaring 15 jihads to get it back....

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Funny you should say that, as it was an incident with the Mongols that caused me to realize how cheesy (not to mention overpowered) multiple Jihads are.

I was playing the Fatamids in XL, and had just lost Khazar to the Golden Horde. Furious at being defeated by the heathens, I used about - I want to say 8 or so - Jihads to create an army that (by the time it reached Khazar) numbered about 35,000 men. It easily defeated the Mongol force, which was little more than half the size of my own.

After that, I decided I couldn't spam Jihads like that anymore. While fun, it just made things too much of a cakewalk.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

Same applies to Jihads - I am yet to see one in the MedMod which I have not built myself. With 5,000 florins per jihad and a grand mosque as a requirement, which is much better than the cheap and easy to build ribat if you ask me, they are simply unaffordable and far less effective. While this is not a perfect way to deal with jihads and crusades, it works nicely.

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Interesting. I think the grand mosque as a requirement for Jihads is reasonable, but the 5000-florin price tag seems a little steep to me. Not that they should be a mere 500 florins, but I would probably set the price at 2000-2500 or so.

Of course, the problem is that even at "only" 2500 florins, the Muslim factions will probably never launch a Jihad when controlled by the AI, as it seems they rarely have that kind of cash on hand. So either way, it's probably damned if you do, and damned if you don't.... :shrug:

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Originally Posted by Brandy Blue

Actually, Pope Innocent III declared a crusade against the Cathars in Southern France. That is how the king of France became powerful in Southern France, which had been a contested region before that time. He provided the troops to crush the Cathars (considered heretics by the Catholics) You can find more about it on the web under the name Albigensian Crusade.

Also, a crusade was declared against Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II. So crusades against disgraced Catholics are probably legit historically.

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The Albigensian Crusade was against heretical basically non-catholics though and in the sense of MTW would be a crudsade against a rebel province which is fine.

As for the crusade against Frederick II, yes it was declared but I don't think the common people exactly swarmed to join!

What did also occur were crusades against Prussia, Lithuania etc which were pagan at the time and let to the Teutonic Knights setting up their own state.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Interesting. I think the grand mosque as a requirement for Jihads is reasonable, but the 5000-florin price tag seems a little steep to me. Not that they should be a mere 500 florins, but I would probably set the price at 2000-2500 or so.

Of course, the problem is that even at "only" 2500 florins, the Muslim factions will probably never launch a Jihad when controlled by the AI, as it seems they rarely have that kind of cash on hand. So either way, it's probably damned if you do, and if you don't.... :shrug:

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You've hit on something there. The Grand Mosque as the Prerequisite for jihads would give the "holy struggle" the true epicentre that it needs. Only one marker per year could be produced, which would be ideal. Upping the cost and build times would also increase their importance. The ribat could instead be used as a prerequisite for fanatical troops such as the Hashishin (Nizari Fedayeen), Nizari (Nizari Foot Soldiers) and also the Ghazi Infantry.

The same could be done for Jihads. The cost could be increased and also the build time. Increasing the build time alone would give less crusades. Also the chapter house could form the prerequisite for certain knightly orders in certain provinces. Units can also be modded to determin how likely they are to appear in crusades, this would reduce the amount of, e.g. peasants appearing and increase the amount of order foot soldiers. The knightly orders were not exactly commonplace either so the chapter house could be made a unique building if necessary.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

You've hit on something there. The Grand Mosque as the Prerequisite for jihads would give the "holy struggle" the true epicentre that it needs. Only one marker per year could be produced, which would be ideal. Upping the cost and build times would also increase their importance. The ribat could instead be used as a prerequisite for fanatical troops such as the Hashishin (Nizari Fedayeen), Nizari (Nizari Foot Soldiers) and also the Ghazi Infantry.

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I concur with that in full. I would only caution to not make Jihads too expensive (in terms of both cost and time required), as they're still at a disadvantage when compared to Crusades.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Also the chapter house could form the prerequisite for certain knightly orders in certain provinces.

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Not sure by what you mean by this. Do you mean to place chapter houses could only be built in provinces where the various Orders were historically available?

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Units can also be modded to determin how likely they are to appear in crusades, this would reduce the amount of, e.g. peasants appearing and increase the amount of order foot soldiers. The knightly orders were not exactly commonplace either so the chapter house could be made a unique building if necessary.

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Agreed. I think the amount of Knights per Crusade is generally about right, but there should probably be far more Order foot soldiers than Fanatics. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

You've hit on something there. The Grand Mosque as the Prerequisite for jihads would give the "holy struggle" the true epicentre that it needs. Only one marker per year could be produced, which would be ideal. Upping the cost and build times would also increase their importance. The ribat could instead be used as a prerequisite for fanatical troops such as the Hashishin (Nizari Fedayeen), Nizari (Nizari Foot Soldiers) and also the Ghazi Infantry.

The same could be done for Jihads. The cost could be increased and also the build time. Increasing the build time alone would give less crusades. Also the chapter house could form the prerequisite for certain knightly orders in certain provinces. Units can also be modded to determin how likely they are to appear in crusades, this would reduce the amount of, e.g. peasants appearing and increase the amount of order foot soldiers. The knightly orders were not exactly commonplace either so the chapter house could be made a unique building if necessary.

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Sounds like a fine solution - maybe thatway Jihads could be used to attack new areas as well as take back previously held lands.

Incidentaly playing as the crusader states in XL the AI has just attacked me with multiple Jihads - I am now fully converted to the one Jihad at a time rule now I've been on the recieving end :wall:

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Originally Posted by Martok

I concur with that in full. I would only caution to not make Jihads too expensive (in terms of both cost and time required), as they're still at a disadvantage when compared to Crusades.

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Agreed. Jihads should probably be quite a bit cheaper. another problem with Jihads is muslim zeal. It's always very lacking.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Not sure by what you mean by this. Do you mean to place chapter houses could only be built in provinces where the various Orders were historically available?

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Chapter houses would be built in any province, there is no way around this, well there is, adding a "resource" and making the chapter house dependant upon it (in much the same way that a mine depends on salt, copper, silver or gold for example) but that is not something I can see working to well. I was thinking more of chapter houses in conjunction with certain armourers/spearmakers/bowyers/horsebreeders being able to train i.e. Knights of Santiago in Leon, or Hospitallers in Rhodes.

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Originally Posted by Martok

Agreed. I think the amount of Knights per Crusade is generally about right, but there should probably be far more Order foot soldiers than Fanatics. :yes:

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I often see crusades made up of 4 units of fanatics. I think the order foot soldiers need a boost and the knights also, though to a lesser degree.

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Originally Posted by Don Esteban

Sounds like a fine solution - maybe thatway Jihads could be used to attack new areas as well as take back previously held lands.

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Unfortunately the behaviour of Jihads and Crusades is hardcoded, so it won't be possible to send Jihads against just any target, or against only non muslims. The existing Jihads are actually ahistorical in that they should function exactly like crusades enabling you to declare a jihad at any non muslim province on the map, though without the endorsement of a pope like figure (the Caliph).

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Originally Posted by Caravel

I was thinking more of chapter houses in conjunction with certain armourers/spearmakers/bowyers/horsebreeders being able to train i.e. Knights of Santiago in Leon, or Hospitallers in Rhodes.

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Ah, I see! I personally would very much like to see this, as I've always hated that you can't train/retrain Crusade units. Excellent idea, Caravel. :thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

I often see crusades made up of 4 units of fanatics. I think the order foot soldiers need a boost and the knights also, though to a lesser degree.

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I'll take your word for it. I'm probably more familiar with the Spanish's Crusades, which generally have a good number of Order knights (due to the provinces of northern Iberia starting with fairly high Zeal). I'm almost tempted to say that Fanatics should be gotten rid of altogether, but they do admittedly make for cheap (yet fairly effective) cannon fodder.

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Originally Posted by Martok

I'm almost tempted to say that Fanatics should be gotten rid of altogether, but they do admittedly make for cheap (yet fairly effective) cannon fodder.

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NO!!!!! I just love slaughtering Fanatic infidels in the name of Islam :laugh4:

I played with the Almohads in medMod and I was wrong - a Jihad costs only 2,000 florints, but takes 5 yeras to build, and since the grand mosque is the requirement, only one province can build Jihads. While I have not seen the AI build Jihads (the Muslim AIs in MedMod tend to be weak), building one is quite rewarding as you get unique troops generally better than what you can produce. Crusades also tend to be big - you get a full stack of some really nice units. I thin it took 10 years and a lot of florints to build a crusade, but that makes that improves the game quite a lot, as capturing a Crusade target really feels like an accomplishment. I think fanatics should part of a Crusade's composition though, as this is historically realistic.

Here are a few of my rules (I play on expert with XL)

1. NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER EVER give any titles to any generals.
2. When conquering a province, not to improve on the farming, only fortifications and troop building facilities
3. AI controlled taxes
4. Since XL has two year recruitment times, I usually takes a while to build up an army
5. Not to expand my naval dominance throughout the whole map, only the areas where I control

Yeah, that's it. It proves to be very challenging economy wise. But when I didn't do that, I would always have 300k+ florins after 150 years or so.

Oh, and I'm starting to use green generals. It was pretty rediculous how the same general could live for 400 years.

I made up these in order to role-play the game more and add to the challenge:

The rules are as follows:

The AI can control for the player the following vital 5:

a)building construction
b)unit recruitment
c)agent recruitment
d)tax management
e)title management

So, i turn them all over to the AI and give one back to my control for every:
-3 stars of king influence.
-1 level of the "builder" trait for my king.

Essentially this is a measure of the power of the king over his domains. This complements well with say the high Byzantine influence and the general "low" influence of catholic rulers in a historica manner.

A 6 influence & magnificent builder or a 9 influence great builder will reign supreme.

Most of the time this leaves you with at least one of the above under your control which should be enough to ensure survival.

In this way the game is controled by the AI for a significant amount of time that prevents me from making optimal use of resources abstracting the kings "hold" over his kingdom into the game. This is really the case as successions drop again the player's hold on his kingdom and thus things may get slow or even go wrong even if you are in a position of strength.

Actually the AI doesn't do all that bad in automanaging, unless you leave the building choices to him in which case things turn hectic.

It feels more like playing a series of historical battles and following some key character's course in "history", rather than playing a game. It also adds a king-centric perception to the game.

Other than that:

-No delibarate destruction of facilities buildings
-No slaughtering of prisoners
-No edge camping (battles)
-No use of second bridge (battles)
-GA mode only
-No rebellion harvesting
-No exploits on known facts (as the mechanisms that trigger the horde and its date of appearance)
-Homelands (either modded in or abstracted by me for my faction - i prefer them restricted in a historical manner
-Negative loaylty title bonus for certain provinces (Anatolia, Burgundy, Epirus)
-No use of inquisitors whatsoever other than cow heretics (lately i'm thinking to completely mod them out except for the Papacy)

I have some personal rules to make the Viking Campaign more challenging:

- You can only build Thralls, Landsmen, Berserkers, Cavalry, and Bowmen. You can upgrade their weapons and armor as you wish, through.

-Coming from the previous one: you can only use family born huscarles, and only one by army (to reflect they´re the general´s bodyguard). For that matter, you can only use huscarles as army leaders. You can´t build them, but you can retrain them.

-Whenever it´s possible, you must lead your armies with your king, and get him in the fringe (come on, Ragnar I starts with "Mighty warrior". I cannot imagine this viking leader not chopping heads around him with an axe. It´s what he does for a living)