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What did historical armies consist off? Given the 20 unit limit, I want to recreate factional armies as accurately as possible.
E.g. say I play Romani, how many hastati, principes and triarii units would I have? How many support units?
If we could compile this for all the factions that would be great.
In my Romani campaign, my main 20-unit army is made of:
Hastati- 6 units
Principes- 4 units
Triarii- 3 units
Equites- 2 units
General- 1 unit
support (rorarii and leves, sp?)-4 units
The reason for the amount of hastai, principes and Triarii units included is that I am trying to roughly demonstrate that less men would have survived to to be promoted to the next level of veterancy. (For example, of the 6 former units of Hastati that enlisted, only enough men survived to be re-organized into four units of Principes).
My amount of Equites is relatively low to reflect that the early Romans did not use their turmae of cavalry for much more than scouting, and thus did not mantain a huge cavalry force for fighting.
However, i am not sure how historically accurate this really is, it is just an estimate based on the 20-unit limitations.
edit,
well youre missing your ala socorium (allies)--id say you need a unit or two of samnites or lucanians, or maybe a unit of some german or gallic or greek cavalry depending on where you're fighting.
Your other alae will be formed of the extraordinarii, to be used as a special reserve by the Consul leading the army.
I'd rarely go with a full 20-stack I think thats a little too large for a Republican army, say maybe 10-12 at most.
I'm with Zaknafien on this one...My standard early Republican legion is much smaller and *must* consists of:
1 General (Must have a commanding position, like being a consul [in which case he can command 2 of these])
3 Hastati
3 Principes
2 Triarii
1 Equites/Equites Extraordinari/Other allied cavalry [read greek, gallic or whatever].
2 Leves/Velites
2 units of supporting infantry (Kretans, Slingers, Lucanians, Samnites, Pedites Extraordinari, Hoplites...etc...) » These are optional
I like to have a strong RPG element in my games so I don't exploit the really deficient AI. An example of self-imposed elements are...
*Don't chase the enemy after the battle is won (so much more of the enemy survives);
*Keep Legions in forts along the Italian countryside [like an HQ's where they can muster and be refitted before a CO comes to take command] so there aren't legions running around by themselves;
*Use 3 line formation with horse alae;
*Never scout first with spies [increases chances of an ambush];
*Only command battles where family members are present [for the rest I use auto-calc];
*Never recruit more than 2 mercenaries for my armies [unless there's a Type 4 government in a city, in which case there can't be any more than 2 of my units, *or* there's a Type 3, in which case the ratio must be 1:1];
*Only advance into areas where there's an obvious need to intervene (not conquering just for the hell of it);
*Don't keep provinces that formerly belongued to an ally;
*After a campaign the legion must return home, after exchanging it with a garrison force of Rorarii or similar...
Yep, sounds alot like me--I do the forst along the borders thing as well, with a normal legion (1 unit of each hastati/princ/triarii/equites/velites) in each fort. a Consular legion is double strength, so for my "campaigning armies" i use this:
3 hastati
2 principes
1 triarii
1 equites
1x velites
1 general (w/ perhaps one younger general as a second)
2x regional ally infantry
1x regional ally cavalry
1x pedites extraordinarii
1x equites extraordinarii
Why only 2 units of principes though?
to make an even triplex acies
Chasing the enemy with cavalry is one of the reasons why Caesar was so successful as a general. Besides, the AI gets so much money and is able to recruit so many stacks you are doing yourself a disservice - not evening the gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
Here's my usual composition for my favorite army, Arche Seleukeia:
1 General
6 Pezhetairoi or Pantodapoi Phalangitai or both, mabye 1 Argyraspidai depending on timeframe
2 Hetairoi or Kataphraktoi depending on timeframe
2 Regional medium cav units (Galatians, Medes, etc.)
1 Light Cavalry (Dahae, Medes, Hippakontistai)
2 Good support infantry (Hypaspists, Galatians, Thureophoroi, Thorakitai, Babylonians, Jewish Spearmen, etc.)
2 Pantodapoi
3 Crappy missile infantry (Mostly eastern skirmishers, slingers, or archers but maybe 1 Greek missile unit)
1 Good missile unit (Cretans, Syrians, Elamites, or Greek peltasts) or 1 elephant
My usual setup for the Ptolemies, Macedon, and Epirus are similar only with different regionals and less emphasis on cavalry.
Caesar was such a successful general because he was a political animal ~;)
I didn't say I don't chase the enemy with cavalry. I'm saying that I don't chase it after you're given the chance to continue the battle after all their units have routed. Not allowing a city to fall into my hands when it's extremely large garrison sallies to help an outside army is one of the reasons I tend to let some enemy units escape. Besides I tend to concentrate my cavalry on routing elites and not the rabble.
Even with all those stacks, the AI is still too incompetent to compete with me. It's not about making things even - that's impossible - it's about giving computer as much as an edge as possible, without actually cheating.
Ah, I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
That's a huge army you got there mate. :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by tk-421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
Sounds reasonble.... but what battle difficulty?
Hard. Very Hard gets ridiculous sometimes.
Hey everyone. first post here in this section:)
Now, about roman armies:
Praetorian army (led by a praetor acompanied by his tribune) early legion (4th century BC~early 3rd century BC):
Core troops (roman troops):
2 x Generals
1 x Hastati
1 x Principes
1 x Triarii
1 x Rorarii
1 x Accenci
Auxiliary troops (now this depends on the region as you know so I'll tell the unit type to fit in):
1 x skirmisher
1 or 2 x swordsman
1 x spearmen
if you opt to go for a 2 x swordsman don't use a spearmen I usually (when I'm trying to play historically) go for one each as it gives more flexibility...
The composition in battle should be Hastati with auxilia swordsman and skirmisher in front, 2nd line principes, 3rd line Triarii and rorarii and accensi.
This is for a standard praetorian army 8400 ~9000 men.
You can opt to make variations on this and add a cavalry unit (roman or otherwise) instead of the second general or even add artilery instead of the second general.
THen, you'd have outsized praetorian armies wich should go like this:
Core troops:
2 x Generals
2 x Hastati
2 x Principes
1 x Triarii
2 x Rorarii
1 x Accenci
Auxiliary troops:
2 x skirmisher
1 or 2 x swordsman
1 x spearmen
In real numbers this would go to 12~13K of men
On the batlefield just as the previous one hpowever you have more troops.
This armies are exceptions tough and should only be used to stop let's see, Carthage invasions or Epirote huge armies and no consul near...
then, You'd have Consular armies, led by a consul rank general.
This armies are larger and better equiped.
Here's the composition:
Core troops:
2 x Generals
2 x Hastati
2 x Principes
2 x Triarii
2 x Rorarii
1 x Accenci
Auxiliary troops:
2 x skirmisher
2 or 3 x swordsman
1 or 2 x spearmen
1 x auxiliary cavalry
Again variations are in order like removing the second general (military tribune) and adding artilery, extra cavalry, etc...
then, you have the outsized Consular army:
Core troops:
2 x Generals
3 x Hastati
3 x Principes
2 x Triarii
2 x Rorarii
1 x Accenci
Auxiliary troops:
3 x skirmisher
2 or 3 x swordsman
1 or 2 x spearmen
1 x auxiliary cavalry
This one actually should have two more units but, game limitations are a Bi...
So, here you go. Early Camillian reforms all done.
Also, Seljucids armies should include both hetaroi and katraphacts as they used both in diferent fashions (they didn't know how to take full advantage over katrapacts.
Cheers...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm
These are some very good roleplaying ideas, I'll integrate some of these into my own campaigns.........
Right now the only rolepalying thing i do is form the triplex acies (I just drag out the back lines of principes/triarii to make them roughly even)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaknafien
I had no idea that republican armies were so small, or is this just on the largest unit setting? I play on normal unit size, so would it still be historically accurate if I used maybe 15-16 stacks?
I think its less about the actual number of troops, and more about how many units you have in your army. The more units, the more to attack the enemy with, the better advantage you have, irregardless of quantity of men since normal is across the board. Now, if the AI got Huge setting armies and you got normal, then it'd proabably make sense to add more to your army.Quote:
Originally Posted by CaesarAugustus
A single Polybian Roman Legion contained 10 maniples each of Velites, Hastati, Principes and Triarii. A maniple consisted of two centuries of 60 men each (or 30 in the case of Triarii). This gives 4200 infantrymen, which were accompanied by 300 cavalrymen. So with the scaling of RTW, it's simply not possible to represent a Legion (even if you assume a 1:5 or 1:10 ratio - would be easier if units were 120 men, but that would cause gameplay problems), but my Legions tend to look like this:
- 2 Generals (one the main commander 30+ years old, the other leading the cavalry 18-30 years old).
- 2 Hastati (320 men).
- 2 Principes (320 men).
- 1 Triarii (160 men).
- 2 Velites (320 men).
Regional units and Italian alae (ie the same as above, since historically they eventually fought in a very similar manner to the Romans) fill in the gaps. During deployment, I keep units in their default wide formation - deploying them in blocks as if they were individual maniples doesn't work when each unit represents five maniples.
That's my take, anyway...
Cheexsta, what do you tend to use for Camilian? If you play that far, Marian?
I wish QuintusSertorius would revise his play guide for EB.
1 General
4 Hastati
4 Princepes
2 Triarri
2 Velites
2 Equites
That leaves me with five units of mixed Allied infantry and Cavalry. I like big armies and I tend to like the AI to mass before I attack. I wander around in his terretory like a Roman Hannabal, when he presents me with a tempting target I engage him.
i do the same..nothing worse than being attacked by meddlesome 2-3 unit armies when you're a full Consular legion marching around.
For the early Parthian (Pahlavâ) army, the figure of 10,000 (Being a "beivâr" or a myriad) was considered the ideal, in which the composition would roughly be 90% light cavalry to provide the missiles, and 10% being heavy cavalry in the form of cataphracts. This is the so-called "Carrhae-template" which has a basis in the battle of the same name. However, in the later stages of the Parthian empire, the cataphracts got an increasingly more important role and also became more heavily armoured, in the style of the Grivpanvâr (Clibanarius). Sometimes, the Parthians would field expensive all-cataphract armies (Such as the successful, but also dreaded campaign of Pacorus). I cannot give a secure ratio, but 70-80% light horse and 20-30% cataphract cavalry is reasonable and would not interfere too much with the fleet nature of the Parthian army.
That's the same exact army I build. (With acceni instead of velites in the camilian times.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall
Like above, I used exactly the same army with the romans, but with the peculiarity that I substitute one Equites with one general. Thus, on one alae, I have the lesser general (usually the one that has less bodyguards) with the equites, and on the other I put the bigger general (which usually had many more bodyguards...).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wigferth Ironwall
Now I tend to be more historical (even though I loved having an army comprised exclusively of romans), and I usually replace 2 hastatis with 2 allied light or medium infantry (preferrably Lucanians, Medium Samnite infantry will do though) in order to accompany them on the first line. I also replace 2 principes with 2 medium infantry (preferrably Heavy Samnites), and I add a couple of Cretans or Rhodians as auxiliary missile units.
So my legion goes:
1º Row=_Thureophoroi_//Hastati__//Hastati___//_Medium Samnites
2º Row=_Lucanians___//Principes_//Principes_//_Heavy Samnites
3º Row=______________//Triarii___//Triarii
+1 Equites, +2 Generals, +2Velites (or 1 Rorarii + 1 Leves + 1 Accensii)
The rest of the unit slots (4 or 5 depending if it`s Camilian or Polybian) I leave vacant, or I fill it with just anything, from siege weaponry to botroas, thureophoroi, etc.
Cheers!!!
hum.... I like urs K raso. I think I MIGHT use it in my Romani campain.
When I faced carthed I had 4 Pezetaroi (sp) in my armies, because those Cartheginian hoplites and phalangies where HARD to kill!
But if I wanna be a proper Roman I need to stop fighting like a Hellen.
lol :grin:, a good tactic against hellenic and carthaginean phalanxes is the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSpartan
First, form your first rank of hastatis and allies on a straight line. (Note, the 1rst rank of allies must have good stamina)
Stop the enemy phalanxes. Tire them up a little with your hastatis, but not so much as to tire your own hastatis. The idea is to make them get all together.
Then, as soon as your hastatis get "winded", retreat your first rank through your second line, and then, quickly form your second rank, the principes and 2nd line allies, as a solid line. They should have better defensive capabilities, and can be expected to hold enemy phalanxes by their own on defensive stance.
By now, you should have defeated the enemy flanking cavalry with your own cavalry, together with your support troops (accensii and leves, don`t use the rorarii and leave them as a last resort defense). So their flanks are vulnerable.
Once your hastatis and 1st rank allies have rested a little (and your 2nd line tire the enemy phalanxes), send them round the enemy formation, obliterate anything that the enemy have got guarding their flanks (usually units of skirmishers and such), and, using 1 maniple on each flank, and the other 2 maniples behind the enemy phalanxes, crash over the enemy formation.
If during the process, the 2nd line (principes and 2nd line allies) begin to shake, reinforce them with the triarii and rorarii (that`s what they are for). If they get into a very bad shape, replace them alltogether, and just use the triarii where`s hottest, and the rorarii and the less mauled principes where the fighting isn`t too gruesome...
The result is a simple envelopment. Keep any supporting enemy troops away from the encirclment with your cavalry and skirmishers.
If you`re lucky, the whole army will panic in a domino-effect, and start fighting to the death. I usually chew them up, and leave no one to get out of that pocket alive.
Easy peasy, Japanesey. :grin:
PS: Off course, you should use good`old manipular formation!!!!
:shame:
I see.... I will most defitely run it tomorrow. And learn to fight like a Roman.... eventhough its H battle difficulty. And I hate wasting the lives of my men in battle. :shame:
Been doing some more thinking about this, and I think you could fairly accuratley portray a polybian praetorian or even consular army.
Considering each maniple was 120 men (2 centuries), consider each unit of hastati and principes is one maniple. (it would be better if we could give them 2 centurions and 2 signifers).
Now, scaled down of course, since youll have to include 2 alae and your cavalry, say, 3 units of hasati, 3 units of pirncipes, 2 units of triarii, 2 units of velites and accensi, 1 unit each of equties and equites extraordinarii, 1 unit of pedites extraordiniarii, and then maybe 2 units each of some allied unit, be it samnites or lucanians or gauls, what have you.
deploy them in the triplex acies (checkerboard formation) with the alae and cavalry on the wings.
presto, polybian legion.
Makedonia
Pydna battle setup
This one is a bit special with high amount homeland defence units. If your empire grows bigger replace 1 prodromoi with hetairoi, and phalangitai deuteroi with for example 1-2 guards(Hypaspistai, Pheraspidai), 2-3 Peltastai/Thureophoroi/Spendonetai/Cretans. you may also lower the number of Pedzetairoi.
For small armies use guards and peltast like units plus skirmishers and cavalry.
1 General
4 Cavalry(2 Prodromoi, [1 Thessalian, 1 Thracian/Celtic] or 2 thracian/celtic
1 Argyraspidai
6 Pedzetairoi
4 Phalangitai Deuteroi
3 Peltastai/Thureophoroi/Thracians
1 Spendonetai/Cretans
use mercenaries at will and as many as you like. Guard non homeland cities with mercenaries and low level factional units. allied cities should have garnison made from units recrutable from this city.
My Baktrian 1st field army (they all differ):
1 General
1 Baktrian cataphract
1 Promodroi
1 Armoured Indian Elephant
6 Pezhetairoi
2 Baktrian Agema
2 Thorakitai
2 Thureophoroi
1 Royal Squadron
2 Persian archers
1 (the cheapest anti-infantry artillery piece)
Don't know how historical it is, but I try...
Quote:
Originally Posted by k_raso
I DID IT I FOUGHT LIKE A ROMAN!!!!! AND WON!!!!
still.... I had to fight the urge to deploy my Triarii and Pezetaroi (sp) like a Hellen.
Ok, I always at least try to play kinda historical. I try to do armies that makes sense. I have no great knowlegde about KH history or way of war.
This is my latest stack Ive done with KH. And I do belive its kinda historical? :sweatdrop:
http://www.pici.se/?14460
Is it. Or am I completly out in the blue?
What should I change?