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I just tried the merchant fort i.e
-Build fort using a general on a resource.
-Put in a few merchants.
Each merchant in the fort will now be trading the resource.
I have tried this with 3 merchants in a fort just outside Constantinople, trading silk. All three are n00bish merchants but are making about a 1000Florins/Turn all together in that fort.
Don't know if this is intended but it works anyway.
*sees a mad rush to build forts in Timbuktu*
:egypt:
Do you need to leave a military unit in the fort for it to stay in existence?
Nope if there is an agent in it, it stays.
One more exploit:oops:
Cool! Nice use for those Family/Generals that have lousy traits. Merchant escorts...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
Hmmm.......
1) Presumably you build the fort off to the side of the resource a little bit, rather than actually on it?
2) The fort might allow you to put three or four merchants on the resource (up to twenty, I presume?) but does it protect the merchants from getting aquired?
3) If it doesn't, can more than one get aquired at once? Will an 8 ranked AI merchant take out all five of your 4 ranked guys in one hit?
Forts and military escorts appear to protect merchants from takeovers.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=75216
But, wouldn't that destory your relationship with the nation that you place the fort on.
HAhaha, now that's thinking outside the box, or I don't know what is :laugh4:. Of course, it's borderline cheating, and you can only do it in your own lands, but funny still.
I dunno about only being able to do it in your own lands......
Not tried it with merchants, but you can certainly build forts in both rebel and non-player faction lands. My current game as England I got a tonne of forts in Turkish territory to channel the Mongols away from my holding in the Holy Land. Turks don't seem to mind a bit - only a direct attempt to take a province seems to bother them....
I don;t know if it is cheating... I mean a single enemy combat unit could capture you fort full of merchants and kick them all out with no chance of them stopping it or getting back in again. And using military units to secure and hold economic location for your personal use sounds a reasonable tactic.
The only thing that would make it an exploit is that the AI does not do the same thing...
forts can be built anywhere - it's just watchtowers that must be built on your own land.... so yeah, you could go to any resource you want and grab a monopoly on it for a whole guilds worth of merchants....
yeah, I suppose a rival miltary unit could capture your fort - but without any military units there, the AI will probably ignore it... areas like Timbuktu and the amber fields are so far in the boonies that nobody bothers them anyway
Fort + Merchant(s) = Trade Post :beam:
Sending a lousy general to Timbuktu with an entourage of 5-7 Merchants would be highly profitable. Double Gold, here we come!
1 General + 5-7 Merchants = Trade Commision! :D
It's hardly an exploit... I mean it may not have been intended by the devs but it mirrors real world practices of the nobles in the medieval period.
Well, I leaning towards to say that it is an exploit. While it is kind of realistic it makes the game too easy. Also as others pointed out the AI is not prepared to do the same tactic and probably will never attack your merchants sitting in a fort. Not to mention that the AI is reluctant to attack forts on the first place. All in all, the AI is probably not prepared to play and to counter this tactic.
It's a great idea but as the AI doesn't do it i'd have to class it as an exploit :(
Then just don't use it. I like it personally.
I tried the fort thing today in my France campaign. Just doing the wine resources. One thing I noticed is the enemy merchants flat out avoid forts. Since I started doing it not a single enemy merchant has come anywhere near my forts. I'm guessing they dont see my merchant in the forts and so dont come after them. I need to test it more though to make sure its not a fluke.
They actually can't attack your merchant inside the fort. In fact they can't enter it at all as long as it belongs to you.
Then its an exploit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashi
1. You can build the fort wherever the game allows you to. You can build it to the side also, but why notsmack on top ?Quote:
Originally Posted by past caring
2. Yes it does protect them. There's already a thread on that cant remember what it's called.
3. No. AI won't attack merchants with escort or inside forts or settlements.
Probably, why not ask for military access ? Or better still get them to declare on you and then go and wrap up their resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatWarrior
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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr
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Originally Posted by Bob the Insane
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Originally Posted by Musashi
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Originally Posted by Cheetah
Ok. About exploit usage and such, using cheat commands etc. My view is pretty simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashi
If you think something is an exploit I would discourage you from using it and report it in the bug/enhancement thread.
If you enjoy using it then go ahead, it's your game and you paid for it. Nobody can dictate how you play. So use cheats whatever, enjoy yourself, that's what your 50 bucks are for.
Personally I classify it as a bug, or an oversight by the devs. It's probably an unintended loophole. I'm not going to report it myself because this thing is actually fun and there's a lot of FAR more pressing issues. If anyone wants to report it, feel free.
What you could do also is to report it and ask the devs to make the AI do the same in future updates. Now that would give resources even more value on the map. Anyway trade posts are old as man himself, whenever something valuable was found, someone would go and hog it. Then someone else (like the army) would come along and (for a cut of the cake) protect the resource hog, so it would be nice to have this kind of addition in the game. You don't have to wait for the devs you can already do this.
I enjoy it and I am going to use it to train up some merchants, possibly even to counter the absurdly broken VnV issues which lead me to have cities without good governors (hence less income).
I'm nearing the end of my own personal empire goals (not the ridiculous 45 provinces, conquer the universe) and all the micromanagement is tedious, all the agent micromanagement specially so.
I think it's really fun. Give it a shot once and it removes some micromanagement from the game. I love the trading part and for me this is just another option when I feel like doing it.
:2thumbsup:
My feeling is that it's realistic, even if the devs didn't intend it it should stay. If I'm a noble and I have a minion who's making me a bunch of money trading my resource, it makes tons of sense (And was done in real life all the time) for me to provide him with a military guard and even fortifications. No other merchant would be able to horn in on his business under those circumstances.
Agreed. Just look at the experiences in Indonesia, in America, India, Africa.
As I said as well it did happen and the devs should expand on this.
Adds another line to the game.
Of course, if you want to be even more realistic about it, putting up a trading post in this fashion should have a chance of causing the formation of a town ;)
Now you are talking business !.
I think this is the most exciting "feature" of the game so far. I may even sneak in spies and assassins as a subterfuge base! :idea: :2thumbsup:
On Very Hard, is anything an exploit?
I don't think this is an expliot as I've never seen the AI factions make a fort let alone a fort in a economically strategic location!!
I think this gives the game a new angle, forts should be used a lot more and now they have worth for the expense. My forts (when I bother to make one) have been attacked, when in a militarilly strategic location. You would have to plan your campaigns around going through certain bottlenecks or take out forts causing them.
I'm not going to debate the morality of forts and merchants. Those that think its an exploit I respect that opinion. Those that dont think its an exploit I respect that opinion too. Thats all I got to say about it. To me its not worth arguing.
Now I been playing around a little more with forts and merchants in my French homelands and after leaving the merchants in the forts I have noticed two trends. They dont seem to get as much money as those not entrenched in forts. I need to test this more because it could just be a fluke or how I'm doing it.
The other trend is that while in forts no enemy merchants came around. Soon as bring my merchants out of forts all the surrounding factions send their merchants towards my merchants. It kinda looks like the game AI can see my merchants and makes a beeline for them. I'm going to test this more by moving my merchants in and out of forts and see if the AI merchants respond to it or not.
The theory that merchants in forts make less money is false, I believe.
You can verify that easily by:
1. Put merchant in fort.
2. Hit end turn.
3. Check the income from THAT merchant by right clicking him.
4. Make note of that income.
5. Remove merchant from fort. (hence destroying the fort)
6. Hit End Turn.
7. Move merchant back on resource.
8. Hit End Turn.
9. Check the income from THAT merchant by right clicking him.
10. Make note of that income.
11. Compare the income figures.
I've tested this on the Western bank of the Bosporus, outside Constantinople. Here you find 2 instances of Silk at equal resource value. A merchant in fort (of equal finance skill) made the same as a merchant outside the fort.
The theory that merchants in forts disperse AI merchants may be true in some cases.
However in Constantinople I have seen hordes of AI merchants, no matter, if my merchants were in forts or not. They've even horde-ed Constantinople when all my merchants were in Timbuktu (literally). So it may apply in some cases but did'nt seem to apply in my case.
I forsee forts being used as forward strike bases for total agent warfare. I personally think that it would be cool to use spies to id potential targets and then a merchant/assasin combo to make "an offer that he cannot refuse" to AI merchants, then dash back into the fort on the same turn for protection.
There you go, now that's creative.
It's a very creative idea. I also think it's one of those cases where player ingenuity runs ahead of dev foresight. It seems like an important part of the trade system is the idea that merchants have to place themselves in some kind of jeopardy, to ah, venture their capital so to speak in the course of their business. That idea is bolstered by the fact that they "make enemies" and become more prone to assassination.
Relatedly, is it possible to group a merchant with an army, station them both on a resource and gain trade income? If so, it might have a similar "protection" effect for the merchant(s), though presumably an army would irk rival factions more so than a fort. (are they irked by forts?)
I dunno... I never put forts in enemy territory. To be honest I never send my merchants to other faction's territories except for Timbuktu, and even then I try to acquire Timbuktu for myself. I prefer to keep them in my own territory where I can shield them.
But yes, a merchant can join a military stack and still make money under their protection... And of course you can have more than one merchant attached to the stack.
I've actually found that there may not be any limit to the number of agents attached to a stack, considering that I can put more than 20 spies in an enemy city.
Sinan, Great discovery. To me it IS historically accurate. The Venetians, Genoese and the Baltic Hansa had fortified trading posts and trading colonies. One of the most famous ones was the Venetian and Genoese fortified trading post Pera (today Galata in Turkish) across Bosporus next to Constantinople.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galata_Tower
Right now I'm using this idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by General Zhukov
Constantinople, which has been the front line for fighting off Crusades for about 60 years, has 4-5 forts surrounding it.
The Northwestern fort serves as a base for an Infantry army (the Sword of Hussein), which can deploy along the road, south towards Thessalonica, or north towards Sofia. This is mainly an army in training, but serves as the province garrison.
The fort also serves as a trading post, a diplomatic mission and as a secret service HQ.
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/...hedK/fort1.jpg
The Southwestern fort is base to an all cavalry army (The Sword of Suleyman). This army is used for intercepting Crusades and other hostile forces as they are spotted by spies in neighbouring regions. This army is deployed beyond the empire's frontiers from this base, to hunt down hostiles. This army has successfully campaigned as far afield as Bern.
There are two "feeder" bases housing reserve troops for both armies. These reserves are deployed as and when the armies are in the field. The forts are then manned by fresh reserve troops coming from Izmir (Smyrna) and Malazgirt (Caesarea).
The cities have their own militia garrisons.
The same can also be done in hostile territory but since merchants (apparently) make more florins on their own territory, it may be best to do it on you own territory. You can also negotiate military access with an ally and establish this sort of HQ in their territory.
Of course as a superpower, you can also just walk in and push people around.
That's great ! I have'nt tried that yet but sure will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Musashi
Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by todorp
That's an excellent example you gave there. Bravo !
Anyway in game it's a lot of fun to do.
This is an excellent addition to the game. I would just love to see the AI be able to do the same thing. There is really only one other use for a fort in my opinion: plugging natural barrier bottlenecks to delay invasion forces.
If the AI could create these "trading posts" AND the vassal feature worked a bit better...
:2thumbsup:
Hi guys,
I think its a great find IMO. Merchants were a unit i thought was usless. Trying to keep track of them + taking up recruitment q's+ micromanagement gets a little tedious. The fort is a great idea that gives me less micromanaging on agents and a use for them.
I have seen a exploit the AI uses in a very similar situation.
EXAMPLE:
Next to Jerusalem is a small lake. The AI will recruit a mercanary boat with a general and place imams on the ship. Of course there is no way for a player to take out the ship unless player recruits ship on the lake to destroy it. Very smart move on the AI part but it was most likely not intended by the Devs.
Great find!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by past caring
Maybe just my game - or my poor eyesight - but merchants only appear to work when placed adjacent to a resource (at two o'clock or North East) rather than directly on or over it. It could be that they work when directly over it, but I only get the "opening new trade" dialogue when they're placed adjacent, so that's where I've always placed them......Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
If you use this exploit, i.e. create a new trade system that the AI doesn't understand the rules of and therefore can't compete in, why not just save the hassle of building dozens of merchants to stack in forts and just cheat in the console for money? Less effort, plus this way there's no need to come up with justifications like: "they had trading forts in real life!"
I don't think the likelihood is that the fort will cause a single merchant to earn less from the resource but perhaps that multiple merchants might have the income split between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
This, imho would make it much less of an exploit, especially if it worked it out as a percentage of their potential - ie. Two merchants on one resource; one that could gain 100 and one that could gain 50 would gain 75 between them off the shared resource.
Sound fair?
Sorry past_caring, that's what I meant by on top.
Zhukov, The discussion is no longer about cheats but your suggestion would be an easier solution if all you wanted to do is cheat.
This has now evolved past a trading system, in which the AI cannot compete. The intention of the system was never to compete with the AI but to use multiple functions for resource tiles. It can be used for espionnage and military HQ. Contrary to what you have implied, this system does not necessarily mean you have all your merchants in forts. In my game only 4 merchants are in forts (the ones in the screenshot above) the rest are scattered from Russia to Timbuktu.
Aedile I've already tested that, merchants of equal finance skill earn exactly the same inside or outside the fort. i.e Alan with finance skill of 4 earns the same as Barney with finance skill of 4 outside the fort on equal value resource. It would be nice if the AI could do the same, if the income was split between merchants, that would be fine too. But it's really not a big deal because you won't bother with 20 merchants on the same spot, I imagine. If you used it like that it would be an exploit.
I don't consider it an exploit, it's not raking in 10,000 Florins per turn for me, more like 400. Not sure if everyone understands what I'm doing but I tried to explain it in the screenshot in post #36.
An off topic remark, about AI not being able to compete, well ??? .... it can't compete in anything. It cannot compete with any TW player who played more than 30 hours of any TW game. Most of us here played waaaay more than that. Most of the cases it probably cannot compete with a newbie, once they've got the interface mastered, it's over for the AI. It cannot compete, it is challenging in numbers and it IS GOOD, but it can't compete with a human.