The Swiss Cheese Experiment: No More Swordsmen Wannabes

The M2TW pikeman is a confused and neglected individual. Despite the effectiveness of his historical counterpart, the M2TW pikeman clearly hates his job. Deep inside each pikeman lurks an aspiring swordsman, just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest himself and take control. This opportunity is first contact with the enemy. Discarding his hated and despised polearm, the pikeman invariably whips out a REAL MAN's weapon, his trusty sword, and proceeds to show off his moves. Unfortunately, he has usually neglected to bring a shield along as well. Combined with his total lack of footwork, this shortens his life-expectancy in melee to considerably less than the average peasant.

Numerous pleas have been made on behalf of the poor pikeman's dilemma, but no help is forthcoming. Many prefer to ignore his existence, considering his inclusion in the game as "ahistorical" and preferring to concentrate on tweaking more characterful units such as axemen and longbows. Others justify his confusion as part of an RPS system where swords beat pikes. Faced with the superiority of swords against his unwieldly pike, they argue, it is not surprising that the pikeman feels insecure and adopts the sword himself. Yet others point out that pike formations invariably lose cohesion or get outflanked in the melee, perhaps overlooking the fact that pikemen often become swordsmen almost immediately after initial contact with any kind of enemy. Finally, some contend that pikemen are only meant to check charges to the front and little else, otherwise they would be too powerful. This is perhaps unfair to the poor pikeman, since a closer observation would reveal that even a charge against braced pikemen forming spear wall will kill as many pikemen on initial contact as chargers.

Stern and ruthless tyrant that I am, I have attempted to correct this confusion by confiscating all swords from my Swiss mercs. No pikeman is to carry anything even remotely resembling a sword, upon pain of prolonged and agonizing death. Despite much wailing and gnashing of teeth, the results are incontestable. Chained to their pikes, my men have no choice but to vent their frustration and shame by poking at the enemy, killing anything that approaches them from the front. Kept at bay by the constantly-stabbing pikes, the enemy has no choice but to try and outflank, as swordsmen working their way past the first few rows of pikes will only claim a few victims before being impaled by those deeper within the formation. Even outflanking is ineffective unless the pikemen are already engaged to the front as the entire formation just turns on the spot to poke in the appropriate direction.

This tweak just replaced the pikemen's secondary weapon entry in the export_descr_unit file with the line from other units that don't have secondary weapons (ironically, I copied and pasted it from the Swordsmen Militia entry). This tricks the pikemen into not using their swords, even though they have the mesh and animations for it.

I am fully convinced that taking this firm and uncompromising stand is the right course of action and encourage all commanders to at least consider doing the same. In conclusion, "No swords for you wannabes! Get back to poking!"

Disclaimer: I am not bashing CA. M2TW is a great game. This quickfix is for those few hardy "ahistorical" souls who feel that M2TW pikemen need some tweaking so they can enjoy using them ingame. I think there are a few such people out there (waves), if I'm wrong then sorry for wasting everyone's time.

Further Disclaimer: If you have mastered the art of pikemen deployment already and think that I just need to learn2playnoob, then good for you. If you have always hated pikemen and want them all dead, then ignore this fix as you would ignore them ingame. If you feel that pikemen are balanced or "historical" already then you can skip this fix too. Please do not assail me with your SCA pike experiences, I just wanted to see my pikemen actually poke something, someplace, sometime.

BUUUUUUAAAAAAHAAHHAHAHHAAHHA !!!!

Man I almost choked on my (late) lunch reading that post.

Can you fix spears as well please... so that they can hold up to cavalry. Pikes are terrible right now, it's really funny (in a tragic way) to see them all formed up with pointy sticks and just charge straight into them and they die like flies.

Please post your fix in point form. I'd apply it.

Nice post... It is an interesting problem...

I have not played with pike enough yet to give a considered opinion but it is a neat solution...

When you take them off spear wall formation, do they switch to swords?

Lovely comic writing there dopp!

Fantastic!!!!

:laugh4:

Incidentally this is the direct opposite of the fix for the German Spearmen in RTW...

Anyway I have never really thought about this. But now I can't help but wonder how pikes do on walls... I remember how hard it was to push Flemmings off the walls in Antwerpen, with pikes it can only get worse.

Good post doop, but did it actually make the pikemen behave as they should! Show us some results! figures! rarrrr!

I posted a video of an early M2:TW trailer, and the pikes in the that were awesome, killing a lot of cav in the charge. Can't find the link now.

It's a good question, do they actually hold up in spear wall or do they resort to fighting as independents ?

Nice idea.

Just put it to the test. Works very well indeed, It'll certainly be a fixture in my games from now on.

One thing I noticed- the pikes still seem to lose a little cohesion and some pop into their "duel" mode. They still do better out of it than they did with their swords, but it looks odd them trying to stab the bad guy when the pike is already halfway through him! ;)

Intriguing... and good.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!! "The average pikeman clearly hates life and himself."

dopp, can you post your edu entry for Scottish Noble Pikeman, post-fix? I'd like to try and give this a shot.

Interesting, though like kraxis the first thought that popped in my head was "how will they do on walls ?!".

Anyway, I fixed my file, and I'm sure I'll get time to play the damn game some instead of just modding it all the time :egypt:

Maybe next game CA can implement things properly, and have a few Zwei Handers in the pikemen formation whose job is to deal with anyone who breaks in...

Post a fix, ASAP!

I didn't even realize Pikemen were so broken because I usually gave up on all the bugs and problems before I even got to turn 30 or 40 (thank god for Shaba Wangy's mods)

Brilliant, hadent really thought of doing that. As Kraxis said, it's exactly opposite of the fix for germanic spearman.

Tryed it out and they actually with keep their spears out and use a push of pike. The only bad thing is they still have the problem when they get close to the enemy of having the entire formation present tail and kill them with their elbows. Has anyone else noticed this?

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Post a fix, ASAP!

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Simple enough fix, doesnt require you to really post the unit.txt. All you need to do is go in, highlight the statistic portion of a swordsmen secondary weapon atribute. Copy that, then go down to the pikemens sec atr highlight the stats and paste.

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

Technically you could classify Phillip III's Macedonian Phalangites - and those of the post-Alexander Hellenic Kingdoms - as Pikemen.

If M2:TW is a update on the RTW engine, then why are there so many problems with unit AI and such? I'd really like to see a fix before I buy this game.

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Originally Posted by Hashashiyyin

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

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The romans used pikes in the early years. The reason they used swords is not because they were more effective, but they were far more influenced by the guals military techniques then the greeks and macedonians. The romans suffered horendous losses to pike formations. The fact that they won is not becuase they had the better tool, they won only because they had the better man power. Time and time again the romans were soundly and massively defeated by pike armies, but when the early romans lossed a battle that merely pissed them more off. They'd send 2 times the troops after a loss.

Possibly the 2 only reasons the romans managed to get through macedonia and greece is the massive depopulation of the region becuase of wars and emmigration to other Diodoche. They also nearly completely lost their cavalry wing of the army. A hard phalangite/pike formation requires a flexible cavalry flank to work, it must force the enemy into the center of it to win. With the loss of the companions and other cavalry forces they lost the ability to pin and force the enemy to the front of their pikes. The romans were finally able to use their advantage of manueverability and hit their flanks and rears. But even then the phalangite cuased massive losses to the romans.

Pikes are a good example of the Reniassance. With the rise of heavy cavalry again the pike was a good weapon to pear it with. Not to mention they also were good at protecting the musketeers. The pike has always been a far supperior weapon then the sword when in a proper formation and you have forced the enemy to your front.

Awhile ago I ran a test seeing what was best in dealing with the Aztecs as the Sicilians and found that pike militia were the best on VH settings.

This was about 6 pikemen vs. 10 Aztec warrirors. All infantry.

The Aztecs charged and in 4-5 ranks deep the pikemen were able to effectively hold the Aztecs at bay. Some got through but eventually were repulsed when some units switched to swords to repel them, then went back to pikes afterwards. The pikemen suffered little casualities but I can't say the same for the Aztecs.

Against cavalry their still the best option so I don't see the problem with them as their suppose to be defensive units in the game. I remember in RTW when everyone complained about the invincibility of the phalanx.

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If M2:TW is a update on the RTW engine, then why are there so many problems with unit AI and such? I'd really like to see a fix before I buy this game.

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It's not. The problems are being blown out of proportion with people trying to find bugs or problems when there really aren't any or exploding minor ones. We have people that say this and others that say otherwise.

If your that concerned, see if you can borrow a copy and play a little to see if you like it. Of course there's nothing wrong waiting. I bought RTW a year after it was released.:2thumbsup: And still love it but I love MTW2 more.

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Deep inside each pikeman lurks an aspiring swordsman, just waiting for the right opportunity to manifest himself and take control. (...) Discarding his hated and despised polearm, the pikeman invariably whips out a REAL MAN's weapon, his trusty sword, and proceeds to show off his moves.

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^^ my laugh for the day

=]

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Originally Posted by Musashi

Maybe next game CA can implement things properly, and have a few Zwei Handers in the pikemen formation whose job is to deal with anyone who breaks in...

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I've always found it a very effective tactic to put a 2-rank-deep unit of infantry (such as zwei handers) right in front of the pikes so as to soften enemy charges and allow the pike wall to stand. The combined force of infantry in front, and push of pike from behind, always routs infantry quickly in a head-on encounter, and the pikes keep their formation as they should.

As to modding the pikemen to force them to use their pikes, I'm undecided. Unsupported pikes in this game only last for a few seconds after initial contact, after which everyone drops the pike for a sword, instead of the rear ranks supporting the front. I believe due to balance issues, CA made pikes the "anti-cavalry unit" but didn't take them as far as RTW did, i.e. unstoppable tanks (I mean come on, hoplites in RTW could fend off practically anything without it so much as getting close to them). I wouldn't want to see a repeat of the hoplite world domination scene that was RTW Greeks :P

I would like a bit of a reworking of pikemen, though. Maybe individual soldiers equipping the sword when required as opposed to everyone dropping the pike as soon as there's a breach somewhere. As is, you need to have reinforcements behind/in front of the pikemen else they will not hold the line against heavy infantry.

Big Tex-

I've been trying to find evidence to back up what I stated (I only said it because I read it somewhere and I'm currently going through my "warfare history" books looking for where I read it). It appears you are correct, that the romans developed the sword, pilum, and scutum, as a counter to the gauls (Celts) fighting style. I did, however, find some quotes to back up what I said. Most of the information I can find about the fall of the phalanx has to do with the battles at Cynoscephalae and Pydna which do not include a troop count (estimates point toward a superiority in the Phalanx favor, but this seems more speculation then historic evidence). here it goes:

"Individually the Celts (Guals) were bigger than the Italians and had superior weapons produced by the best iron workers in Europe. The Celtic sword was capable of cutting right through the Italian shield. En masse the Celtic charge was so ferocious that the Italians could not withstand it.

It was to deal with the last two problems that the unique combination of gladius (sword), pilum (heavy javelin) and scutum (body shield) was developed. It was this system that conquered the Mediterranean world in the first and second centuries BC."

-Peter Conolly

"The Romans suffered disaster after disaster, losing nearly half a million men in the half century between 260 and 210 BC, but finally they emerged as masters of the western Mediterranean. The Celts were driven from the Po Valley and Greece was invaded during the early years of the seconds century BC. In two great battles, Cynoscephalae in 197 and Pydna in 168 BS, the supposedly invincible phalanx of the Macedonians was cut to pieces by the roman legions. This greatly astonished the Greek world and proved conclusively that the sword was mightier then the spear."

-Peter Conolly

"Thus, the phalanx was at its weakest when the enemy possessed large numbers of lighter and more flexible troops and it had no such supporting troops to match them with. An example of this is the battle of Lechaeum, where an Athenian army led by Iphicrates, containing a considerable proportion of light missile troops armed with javelins and bows, succeeded in routing an entire Spartan mora (a Spartan unit numbering anywhere from five to nine hundred hoplites). Iphicrates accomplished this by wearing the Spartans down with repeated attacks by his peltasts (skirmishers), causing a general disarray in the Spartan ranks and an eventual rout when the Spartans spotted Athenian heavy infantry reinforcements trying to flank them by boat.

It was due to the two abovementioned weaknesses that after the Peloponnesian War the phalanx did not perform very well unless it was deployed as part of a combined-arms force. When the phalanx was employed without cavalry and/or light infantry support, it could not cope with the greater tactical flexibility of the Roman legion. It was dethroned from its prestigious position among ancient tactical formations after the battle of Pydna (168 BC), after which Macedonia and Hellas were made Roman provinces. Some legends, however (with little supporting historical evidence) state that a Spartan phalanx drove off marauding Visigoths after the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378."

-Wikipedia (I know, I know! Wikipedia isn't a great source but the material I quoted isn't under dispute at this time, but sill has no references!)

Anyway, not trying to start a flame war or anything, just trying to get to the bottom of the historic falling out of the Phalanx.

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It was due to the two abovementioned weaknesses that after the Peloponnesian War the phalanx did not perform very well unless it was deployed as part of a combined-arms force. When the phalanx was employed without cavalry and/or light infantry support, it could not cope with the greater tactical flexibility of the Roman legion. It was dethroned from its prestigious position among ancient tactical formations after the battle of Pydna (168 BC), after which Macedonia and Hellas were made Roman provinces. Some legends, however (with little supporting historical evidence) state that a Spartan phalanx drove off marauding Visigoths after the Battle of Adrianople in AD 378."

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Originally Posted by BigTex

A hard phalangite/pike formation requires a flexible cavalry flank to work, it must force the enemy into the center of it to win. With the loss of the companions and other cavalry forces they lost the ability to pin and force the enemy to the front of their pikes. The romans were finally able to use their advantage of manueverability and hit their flanks and rears. But even then the phalangite cuased massive losses to the romans.

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Again it was the steady decay of the companions and other horsemen that caused it to fail. Through the constant war's between the diodoche the elites of the macedonians had steadily been killed off most of the companions, and other elites. The steady emmigration from macedonia to other diodoche also hastened their decay.

As far as the skutum, gladius, and pilum combination. It was transfered to the romans from constant fighting with the guals, and spanish.

Part of the reason the phalanx fell out of favor was the steady decay of the greek world. The use of it was nearly forgotten about as the barbarian incurssions swept across europe. By the time of the dark age the old greek tactics were all but forgotten. The romans had steadily changed their tactics to that of nearly all cavalry based quick reaction forces. Most heavy infantry started to decline also. It wasnt until the reniassance brought the surge of classical greek writings did you see the phalanx finally return. It stayed for quite awhile also. Wasnt until the gun had finally become powerful and self reliant that it ceased to be used.

As an intresting side note, it hasnt been until recently that infantry has been really armored since the Medievel era. The amount of armor that has come into use in the past decades for infantry is quite amazing. With the steady use of urban tactics and increase in weapons for the infantry it would seem the that heavy infantry is coming back, all be it not in the same form. History has funny ways of repeating itself.

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I've always found it a very effective tactic to put a 2-rank-deep unit of infantry (such as zwei handers) right in front of the pikes so as to soften enemy charges and allow the pike wall to stand. The combined force of infantry in front, and push of pike from behind, always routs infantry quickly in a head-on encounter, and the pikes keep their formation as they should.

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If you got them, mixing in Hand Gunners works awesome too. I just fought a battle using Handgunners/Pike Milita and was astonished to see what happened. The infantry/knights got stopped just inches away from the hand gunners by the pikes, and then the hand gunners all fired point blank into the enemy. Mass rout ensues. Awesome.

Since they can't switch to swords now, pikemen who are left stranded in front of the formation will hang on to their pike, check dressing by looking around, and fall back into position. Previously they would draw swords and close with the enemy, getting chopped down as a result.

It does look a bit wierd with pikes sticking through everyone, but this was true even on vanilla settings. You just notice it more because they use their pikes longer.

Pikemen are almost unplayable on normal unit sizes. Their default formation is 8 ranks deep, which you will never achieve with just 75 men per unit. Therefore, their formation is easily disrupted unless they fight other pikemen. Even on huge sizes they drop pikes too easily, it's hit-or-miss with them. It's not that the enemy manage to infiltrate the formation, it's that the pikemen really seem to want to use their swords a little too much.

To get best use out of your modded pikemen, brace them in guard mode with spear wall on. Ironically, this usually results in the entire front rank getting flattened by the charging enemy. I have seen neat rows of dead pikemen lying flat as if mowed down by machinegun fire.

After first contact switch guard mode off and watch them do their thing. They should push forward and destroy the enemy. Do not rightclick the enemy, otherwise you will get that orientation bug where they do an aboutface and present their butts to the enemy.

The pike formation should prove nearly invincible from the front. This is not to say you won't take casualties. The reach of the pike doesn't seem to matter, so the swordsman can chop at the head of the pike and the poor fellow holding it will drop dead. This is already a huge step down in power from the phalanx of RTW, where the formation was for all intents and purposes invulnerable as well as invincible to frontal assault.

When attacked from the side or rear while engaged to the front the pikemen will ignore the enemy and continue stabbing to the front. This of course maintains their horrible vulnerability to getting outflanked. I have only done limited testing on this, I'll do some more later. I stupidly used Dismounted French Knights for the flanking tests, which of course proved inconclusive as the knights are bugged as well. Despite this, the knights beat the militia pikemen they faced easily.

Some tests run using vanilla militia pikemen vs jaguar warriors, normal unit sizes, 5 runs. An average of 10 die on both sides in the initial charge. Jaguar warriors outflank the pikes, but are held at bay from the front. Jaguars break away and charge repeatedly, killing more pikemen with each charge. Jaguars finally break and run. Final strengths 48 pikemen, 32 jaguar warriors. The jaguars are unable to close on the pikes in front, but do well on the sides.

Dismounted French Nobles vs vanilla militia pikemen, one test (before I realized they were bugged). Initial charge demolishes the entire front rank of the pikemen (so much for pikemen being overpowered huh?), 15 pikemen dead vs 7 Nobles. Nobles get stuck in that parry thing, but still manage to kill 10 more pikemen before the militia break and run. Noble losses are 15 or so.

I'll run some more tests and post the results.

Edit: Actually, interesting stuff on that combined arms approach there. However, I still feel pikemen should do more of that poking thing on their own rather than waiting for big brother with the 2-hander to come help out. You are more than welcome to disagree.

Further edit: Pikemen were, of course, the heavy infantry of their time. Initially they were supplemented by sword-and-buckler men, halberdiers and 2-handers, but eventually these additions all proved rather unnecessary, even if they were sometimes very effective at tipping the balance between otherwise evenly-matched pike formations. The role of heavy infantry is to contest ground. Skirmishers and other specialised troops like archers are too light to hold ground, the possession of which is a necessary ingredient for victory in the Western world (in the East it's perhaps a different story; just look at the Mongols). Heavy infantry takes up a position and refuses to be dislodged. If the men are determined to stand (not always a given), nothing short of an attack by opposing heavy infantry can drive them away. Heavy infantry includes Napoleonic musketeers, who fired volleys of lead into each other at 50 yards or less and then charged with bayonets, even though they were completely unarmored. At this stage of infantry development (in the game), however, the bayonet had not yet been invented, and firearms were still not numerous enough to completely replace hand weapons. So you get large blocks of pikemen poking at each other at the culminating moment of the action, and the one who wins the 'push of pike' usually wins the battle. I therefore don't really buy into this specialized 'anti-cavalry' role that pikemen are assigned in M2TW (always assuming, of course, that they are working as intended in the first place). Pikemen are heavy infantry, they should be able to duke it out with the best and come out on top in a head-on confrontation. Once again, you are all welcome to disagree, this is personal taste here. Cost and upkeep can be tweaked, but I feel pikemen should hang on to their pikes much longer and not give in to their inner swordsman.

:2thumbsup: on the first post of teh topic.

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Originally Posted by nameless

It's not. The problems are being blown out of proportion with people trying to find bugs or problems when there really aren't any or exploding minor ones. We have people that say this and others that say otherwise.

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Outstanding troll. So anyone who has opinions that don't jive with yours is blowing stuff out of proportion?

@ Dopp

Holy crap! I just did what you said for the Scotish Noble Pikeman, copied over the lines from unit w/no secondary attack... This is on huge unit size, medium, and I have vaultdweller's two-hander fix installed.

They absolutely TORE up French mounted Sergeants, French mounted Chivalric Knights, AND Dismounted French Chivalric Knights!!! I think they lost maybe 20 guys to the DCKs, who had 10 left when they routed. If you do it like you said, leave them braced in formation with guard mode on, then turn off guard mode after impact, they will attack much better in the general melee. Of course as someone stated seeing the animations with pikes swinging merrily through their cohorts doesn't look very .... natural.. and they are a bit overpowered, but at least we have a unit that can now reasonably stand up to cav charges.

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Originally Posted by Hashashiyyin

I'd have to disagree with you a tad here. Pikemen only came around during the rise of gunpowder (medieval times). Pikemen would protect the gunners and the gunners would scare away infantry from getting close to the pikemen. The reason roman armies didn't use a pike was because it was far more effective to close ranks and use a shortsword in close. Pikemen came back into style when gunner had little to fear from anything but fast cavalry, which was the pike's specialty. So making the pikemen not carry swords and forcing them to always use the pike is a little unrealistic IMHO because they reason the pike was given up was they were being beaten sorely in hand to hand with infantry designed for close combat.

But the best thing about M2:TW is you can mod the files to be what you want! so I'm happy you like the changes :)

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Actually, Medieval pikes came into vogue well before firearms were appearing on the battle fields. The pike formation was, for poorer folks (Swiss or Scots) or people without a warrior culture (Flanders), the answer to the cavalry charge. Bannockburn, Golden Spurs, Otterburn and the dominance of Swiss Pike tactics demonstrated the superiority of pike formations over not only cavalry, but men at arms using mixed melee weapons.

Rather than bringing the pike back inro prominence, firearms served to reduce its use. As firearms became more reliable and cheaper, the ratio of pike to gunners decreased until finally the bayonette put the last pikemen on social security :laugh4: .

The counter to pikemen is (and was)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

missle troops

. Shoot them to pieces before you engage them. Compare Otterburn, where Hotspur raced up to engage the Scots before his bowmen had arrived and was thoroughly trounced against Halidon Hill where the English faced nearly the same force and crushed them after setting up a nice crossfire.

On a more game specific note, the difference between the uber hoplites of RTW and pikemen in M2TW is armor and defence. The reason those hoplites were unstoppable tanks was because arrows were useless against them. I would literally soak up all the enemies arrows with my Sacred Band and take very few losses. Try that with M2TW pikes :inquisitive: .

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Originally Posted by IvarrWolfsong

On a more game specific note, the difference between the uber hoplites of RTW and pikemen in M2TW is armor and defence. The reason those hoplites were unstoppable tanks was because arrows were useless against them. I would literally soak up all the enemies arrows with my Sacred Band and take very few losses. Try that with M2TW pikes :inquisitive: .

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Methinks this was because of the shield effect. Hoplites and Pikemen in RTW carried shields which added to their defensive capabilities, whereas pike units in M2TW don't. And yes, I remember the damn Sacred Band and Spartans, they were all but impervious to arrows. :wall: That coupled with the 1.5 buttspike bug just made them that much tougher to deal with. Best way to beat em was a healthy dose of pila, followed by a left-flank charge with the sword-based infantry.

Interesting topic. Great forums too.

Was it the issue that pikemen were performing poorly that prompted the mod, or was it an ascetic desire to see more stabbing animations that coincidentally led to improved performance of the troops?

I don't have much experience using pikes in actual campaign battles, but as to performance, in some combat tests my Portugese pike militia fared well against French Lancers and decently against HRE Dismounted Feudal Knights.

Spread in long 2-rank line, the pikeman killed ~20 lancers on contact, with maybe 10-15 casualties. In the ensuing melee, sometimes all the pikemen would draw swords, and sometimes those in the rear would continue to stab forward while others drew swords. In any event, about half the time this lowly 150 florin unit would run the lancers off the field. The key, I think, is to have lines thin enough and wide enough so that all pikes are down, and crucially, so that the enemy cavalry is not able to wrap around and encircle following the initial crash.

Following this, I stacked up my trusty Portugese pikes against a unit of HRE DFKs. The 3-rank deep spear wall seemed to break the knights' charge momentum, causing a general melee to ensue. In each trial, the knights were reduced to ~20 men before my militia broke and ran. Portugese pike militia, at least, seem to be rather competent swordsmen and efficient at attriting enemies coming at them from the front. These results imply that pike formations could have some utility in area-denial and delaying tactics.

Personally, I would have expected the "melee experts" DFKs to mop the floor with these troops, but it seems like the act of drawing swords is what allows them to be competitive at all.

Boody hell, just noticed that "presenting-bum-to-the-enemy-and-trying-to-sit-on-his-sword" bug.

its simply hilarious.
5 mins into the combat, no matter what orders, and even if none are given, the pikemen perform the exact above manuever. The only thing they dont do is bend over.
My god.
That is easily the worst bug/glitch ive seen so far. Not even the 2-hander one comes as daft as this.

Anyone have any fixes ont his?

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Originally Posted by General Zhukov

Interesting topic. Great forums too.

Was it the issue that pikemen were performing poorly that prompted the mod, or was it an ascetic desire to see more stabbing animations that coincidentally led to improved performance of the troops?

I don't have much experience using pikes in actual campaign battles, but as to performance, in some combat tests my Portugese pike militia fared well against French Lancers and decently against HRE Dismounted Feudal Knights.

Spread in long 2-rank line, the pikeman killed ~20 lancers on contact, with maybe 10-15 casualties. In the ensuing melee, sometimes all the pikemen would draw swords, and sometimes those in the rear would continue to stab forward while others drew swords. In any event, about half the time this lowly 150 florin unit would run the lancers off the field. The key, I think, is to have lines thin enough and wide enough so that all pikes are down, and crucially, so that the enemy cavalry is not able to wrap around and encircle following the initial crash.

Following this, I stacked up my trusty Portugese pikes against a unit of HRE DFKs. The 3-rank deep spear wall seemed to break the knights' charge momentum, causing a general melee to ensue. In each trial, the knights were reduced to ~20 men before my militia broke and ran. Portugese pike militia, at least, seem to be rather competent swordsmen and efficient at attriting enemies coming at them from the front. These results imply that pike formations could have some utility in area-denial and delaying tactics.

Personally, I would have expected the "melee experts" DFKs to mop the floor with these troops, but it seems like the act of drawing swords is what allows them to be competitive at all.

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Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry. In M2TW, pikemen can hold off cavalry but almost immediately break out of formation versus heavy infantry, which is why people see them as performing poorly. It's a matter of balance vs. realism, it would be realistic but not too balanced if you could form an impenetrable wall of pikes. They get somewhat balanced by musketeers and cannon late-game, but that's a long way into the game and you'd almost definitely want pikemen to make up a large part of your pre-gunpowder army if they were as powerful as in RTW.

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Originally Posted by Spark

Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry.

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I didn't have the privilege of playing RTW, but it really does seem like some of the phalanx tactics employed in the earlier eras would be comically easy to counter. Take for example a bunched unit of M2TW pikemen stranded on the battlefield versus a unit of dismounted knights. The "phalanx"'s strength comes from its incredible forward-facing firepower, which is maintained by its tight, rigid formation and discipline. Those strengths become liabilities when faced either with missle fire, or with flexible melee forces that have the capacity and tools to hit the formation on any of its 3 soft underbellies. Mentioned dismounted knights would just divide and envelop the phalanx. If the spearmen tried to manuever to counter the flankers, its formation would break up, causing the unit to lose its great advantage. It could be that CA's implementation of this "react to me or die" reality takes the form of the pikemen drawing swords to meet the foe on equal (or, since heavy infantry is heavily armored, unequal) footing.

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Originally Posted by Spark

Realistically speaking, and as was the case in RTW, a wall of pikes should easily be able to hold off and push enemy infantry, with few losses for the pikemen and huge losses for the attacking infantry. In M2TW, pikemen can hold off cavalry but almost immediately break out of formation versus heavy infantry, which is why people see them as performing poorly. It's a matter of balance vs. realism, it would be realistic but not too balanced if you could form an impenetrable wall of pikes. They get somewhat balanced by musketeers and cannon late-game, but that's a long way into the game and you'd almost definitely want pikemen to make up a large part of your pre-gunpowder army if they were as powerful as in RTW.

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Right, I think that's what CA intended with the game design. Pikemen lack armor, or the shields of classical hoplite units. And so even with the pointy sticks they're a poor choice one-on-one against a unit of dismounted knights, without support. They're designed for the late period, when you have armor-piercing gunpowder units in support.

Heavily armored enemy soldiers (mounted or foot) never get very far into my Tercio pikemen's front line, before they're shredded at close range with musket balls. Maybe that's why I've never noticed this problem with dropping pikes and using swords. But they gotta work together with the muskets. Crossbows and archers aren't that effective against heavily armored units before the gunpowder era, so my front line has to be something heavier like dismounted knights. I never build pikes as early as they're available.... I wait for the guns to back them up.

The reverse formation bug is not one easily fixed and will possibly require changes to the actual code. That's CA's department, not mine. It's caused in part by attacking infantry/cavalry penetrating the formation too deeply on the first charge. Only fix is to play on huge unit sizes so the formation is dense enough to withstand the enemy, or to increase the collision mass and discipline of the pikemen.

Pikemen in M2TW were always hideously devastating *when they poke with their pikes*, which is what prompted me to try out this fix. They just weren't poking enough. I initially accepted the rationale that they were there only to support the musketeers (although I didn't agree with it), but I got so tired of seeing their miserable swordplay. The results encouraged me to keep this fix. It's not a perfect fix and may make them too powerful, but at least they poke things and I can see some real 'push of pike' here.

I'm not entirely sure that they will ever be as powerful as phalanxes in Rome, even by taking away their swords (and thus their vulnerability to close quarter fighting). Their spear wall is much less powerful and doesn't stop attackers from breaking into their formation on the charge. The charge even kills as many pikemen as attackers (especially if the attackers are swordsmen, might be better *not* to brace against them). Their stats are hopelessly inferior to hoplites; lacking shields, good armor (armor upgrades are BORKED, I tell you) and high defense skill. Even their attack and charge is 50% lower on average. When ordered to attack they walk confusedly into the enemy and get hacked down (this is definitely a bug, although there are workarounds).

General observations: with this fix in place pikemen will attempt to maintain formation at all times and will poke with their pikes, instead of deciding to be swordsmen the moment they find themselves a little out of position. Pikemen stranded a little ahead of the main line will get their act together and fall back into line instead of showing off their swordplay. The wall of stabbing spears is incredibly lethal to anything approaching from the front. This was true even before I tried this fix when I managed to get my pikes to work properly (took a bit of luck; half the time they still drew swords for no discernable reason); they demolished frontal assaults with ease. Nothing but another pike formation can withstand the wall of points, and even then it's mutually assured destruction.

Attacked from the flank or rear individual pikemen will turn and poke at the enemy, but the formation still remains weak to flanking, as the original design intended. The lethality of the pike formation comes from the wall of points to the front; individual pikemen fending off flankers are much more vulnerable, even if they are using their pikes rather than swords. I personally have an issue with this (square formation, anyone?) but it's not something I will lose sleep over. It doesn't look too bad as the animation set forces a certain distance between the attacker and pikeman, so clipping is kept to a minimum. It looks awesome when the pikemen are surrounded and they start this 'last stand' thing with pikes facing in all directions. I'll post some screenies if I can figure out how.

Edit: See my "heavy infantry" post above. Even if they are "working completely as intended" (which I seriously doubt, they do seem a little bugged) and are supposed to behave that way against swordsmen, I will probably still mod them to poke people. Pikemen are classified as heavy infantry, they were the ultimate form of heavy infantry, they should be able to stand up to heavy infantry. If CA wants pikemen as specialized anti-cav and useless at anything else (this is not known for sure), I feel myself free to disagree with their unit balance and mod it to my satisfaction.

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Originally Posted by dopp

It looks awesome when the pikemen are surrounded and they start this 'last stand' thing with pikes facing in all directions. I'll post some screenies if I can figure out how.

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Give them the schiltron formation option? I'm on a different PC so I can't try it out. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

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Originally Posted by Whacker

Give them the schiltron formation option? I'm on a different PC so I can't try it out. Sounds like an interesting idea though.

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Nono, they do this already with my 'fix' in place. Pikeman stabbing in all directions, isolated stragglers hurrying back to their fellows, heaps of dead... good stuff. Doesn't help them much, of course, since their formation is completely gone.

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Originally Posted by dopp

Nono, they do this already with my 'fix' in place. Pikeman stabbing in all directions, isolated stragglers hurrying back to their fellows, heaps of dead... good stuff. Doesn't help them much, of course, since their formation is completely gone.

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OK now I follow. I never had the "last stand" formation happen because with your fix in place, the pikes are so damn powerful that they rarely ever lose more than 1/3 of their number in melee. I had them go up against 2 units of DCK's and they ripped em to shreds. HAs still give them a decent beating though, but when you run out of ammo the best thing is to just flee, because any kind of charge period with even a few of them remaining is suicidal. Still think it'd be an interesting idea to give them schiltron to see what happens. :grin:

Actually, pikemen are now much *too* powerful from the front, but it's hard to say whether vanilla settings were working as intended either with all that sword nonsense. Ah well, at least they use their pikes more, and they can actually attack the enemy somewhat, rather than just being a roadblock. I'd settle for uber RTW hedgehogs of death over wannabe swordsmen any day.

Some testing reveals that properly braced pikemen are now almost completely invincible from the front. In fact, testing reveals that pikemen are now invincible from the front, regardless of whether they are braced or not (they can still get demolished by a good cavalry charge if they are stupid enough not to brace). I can't link images here for some reason, so I can't illustrate my points with screenies. They are still very weak from the rear and sides, but no more so than before. They don't seem to have any more difficulty poking at flankers with pikes rather than swords, but of course are total trash either way.

On vanilla settings:

With guard mode on, the pikemen brace and receive the charge. Many of them will die if the attackers are swordsmen. The pikemen stab once or twice, killing those attackers who make it past the first rank of pikes, then freeze in position. Only the occasional stab is made after that. The attackers are then unable to close with the pikemen and a staring contest begins, except on the flanks where the swordsmen are happily butchering the hapless wannabes who have drawn their own swords. This happens about 50% of the time, depending on how motivated the pikemen are feeling that day (they hate their job, remember?).

The other 50% of the time, large numbers of swordsmen will penetrate the formation in the intial charge. The pikemen draw swords and the formation collapses. Even if they kill their immediate targets, the pikemen will continue to fight as swordsmen from then on.

Switching off guard mode, or ordering the pikemen to advance to the attack, the front rank pikemen will attempt to march through the enemy ranks and get butchered. It's like their attack distance is not taking the reach of the pike into account. Those pikemen who survive will naturally switch to swords since they are now intermingled with the enemy. The rear rankers, on the other hand, start poking at the correct distance, but eventually give it up and switch over to swords too.

Using "no swords for you" fix/tweak/cheat:

With guard mode on, the pikemen brace and receive the charge. Many of them will die if the attackers are swordsmen. The pikemen stab once or twice, killing those attackers who make it past the first rank of pikes, then freeze in position. Only the occasional stab is made after that. The attackers are then unable to close with the pikemen and a staring contest begins, except on the flanks where the swordsmen are happily butchering the hapless wannabes who are poking back with their pikes (it's still a massacre on the flanks). This happens about 50% of the time.

The other 50% of the time, large numbers of swordsmen will penetrate the formation in the intial charge. The pikemen then proceed to slaughter the fools, constantly trying to maintain formation. Once all the swordsmen that have penetrated the formation are dead, the pikemen freeze up and hold the rest at bay in a staring contest.

Switching off guard mode, or ordering the pikemen to advance to the attack, the entire formation will start pushing with their pikes. Individual retards will still try to march past the enemy, but will usually realize their mistake and fall back into formation. Enemy is completely slaughtered with few pikemen deaths.

Never tried to charge with them, or put them on walls. Will try and see what happens.

I'll check this tomorrow, but I'm going on vacation for a week or more so won't be much use until Jan. If you get this in time, give me some exact matchups between specific units and I'll do the same. I always play on huge unit sizes, medium most of the time, on that grassy flat map to even stuff out. I say we do huge (if your box can handle that, mine seems ok...), medium diff, grassy map with no weather to eliminate as many variables as possible. Open to other options. Also be sure and post unit stats if you "fix" the pikes so I can use the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Blademun

If you got them, mixing in Hand Gunners works awesome too. I just fought a battle using Handgunners/Pike Milita and was astonished to see what happened. The infantry/knights got stopped just inches away from the hand gunners by the pikes, and then the hand gunners all fired point blank into the enemy. Mass rout ensues. Awesome.

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Nice. ~;)

The reality is that pikes replaced everyone at a certain point. The Swiss with their offensive pikes were the supreme infantry. Pikes were supplemented but the mass of infantry were Pikes. So strong cheap pikes is now in my mod. :2thumbsup:

The main reason pikemen didn't come into vogue earlier is simple... Medieval armies relied heavily on largely untrained rabble, and pikemen require constant drill and extensive training to be truly effective.

In this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=72053&page=2

I wrote about pikemen and the tercio formation. I actually did manage to get pikemen to attack - the trick was to right click them to attack even when they are holding ground. They'll try to keep their pikes going to attack. THe mod should make it interesting, but I think CA did intend them to be this way to make them not so powerful, because when my Tercio's charged with pikes.... not even heavy dismounted knights stood in their way.

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Originally Posted by ChewieTobbacca

In this thread:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=72053&page=2

I wrote about pikemen and the tercio formation. I actually did manage to get pikemen to attack - the trick was to right click them to attack even when they are holding ground. They'll try to keep their pikes going to attack. THe mod should make it interesting, but I think CA did intend them to be this way to make them not so powerful, because when my Tercio's charged with pikes.... not even heavy dismounted knights stood in their way.

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That only works about 50% of the time. The other 50% of the time they switch to swords. I've tried that rightclick trick numerous times and the formation will break up almost instantly. Switching them off guard mode sometimes accomplishes the same result, sometimes it doesn't. It's very iffy, in fact I recommend NOT rightclicking if you use vanilla settings, just wait until the pike formation steadies (ie the pikemen freeze in position and the enemy can't approach closer) before switching off guard mode to let the pikemen start pushing. Of course, often the enemy break right through the pikes on the first charge, the swords come out and stay out, and the formation is utterly destroyed. I don't mind weaker pikemen, but they need to use their pikes more.

Also, I'm not sure I buy the idea of dismounted knights being the game's ultimate heavy infantry. A bunch of rich horsemen who decided to walk one day shouldn't still rule the battlefield as they do when mounted. Dismounted cavalry aside, there aren't really that many higher-level swordsmen available, they mostly become pikes and halberds. The only high-level swordsmen I can think of atm are sword-and-buckler men and those crazy HRE 2-handers. Everyone else either gets pikemen or some sort of halberd/bill/glaive for their ultimate heavy infantry, and right now pikemen don't seem to want to be pikemen.

That said, my tests reveal that pikemen get rather invincible if they stay in formation and don't give in to visions of swordplay. Their stats may need rebalancing if you decide to use my proposed tweak. All tests are on huge unit sizes.

First test series (5 tests each series), Scottish Heavy Pike Militia (the armored ones) vs English Armored Swordsmen. Scots widen formation 4 deep to match the English and brace in spear wall. Scots switched off guard mode after initial contact and begin to poke. Test ends the instant the Swordsmen break. The swordsmen break right into the formation on the first charge, but are quickly pushed out or dispatched before the pikemen go onto the offensive, easily killing the remaining swordsmen before the few pitiful survivors run for their lives. Kills average 86-95 for the pikemen and 13-27 for the swordsmen.

Second test series, Spanish Tercio Pikemen vs Jaguar Warriors, same setup. The Jaguar Warriors smack the entire front rank of pikemen into the dirt on contact before getting pushed back by the rear ranks. The pikemen go on the offensive, annihilating the Jaguars within seconds. Final score: 105-127 for the pikemen and 17-34 for the jaguars.

Third test series, Spanish Tercio Pikemen vs the legendary Janissary Heavy Infantry. The janissaries are wiped out in the centre, but the eight or so that work their way around each flank kill over 40 pikemen before they are routed. I increased the width of the Tercio to compensate. This time the pikemen rout the janissaries with ease. 107 kills for the pikemen every time and 13-23 kills for the janissaries. Something wrong here, I don't really want janissaries to lose so easily.

Fourth test series, Scottish Noble Pikemen vs 2 units of English Armored Swordsmen, one approaching head-on, one moving to flank. The stupid AI forces the pikes to march to engage instead of bracing. The Scots tear up the frontal attackers but are massacred by the flankers. 74-78 kills for the pikes, 120 for both swords.

Fifth test series, Scottish Noble Pikemen vs English Heavy Billmen and Demi-Lancers delivering a rear charge. Pikemen tear up the bills but are completely flattened by the lancers, who lose barely 5 men before the pikes break. The kill figures are completely meaningless since 80% of the unit is vaporised on impact with the horses.

Conclusion: Hard to say. The pikemen seem way too invincible from the front, but you sometimes get the same results when they work properly in vanilla. The problem of course is that they don't always work properly in vanilla. This 'fix' (tweak or cheat might be just as appropriate) definitely makes them more consistent, but risks leaving them overpowered.

Edit: You will get very different results depending on whether you or the AI controls the pikemen. AI-controlled pikemen are much more vulnerable, swords or no swords. In fact, AI-controlled pikemen on vanilla are completely hopeless, they don't even attack and do that aboutface thing.

You will also get different results if you use full armies against each other. In pitched battle 6 JHI chopped apart 6 Tercios with contemptous ease.

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Originally Posted by dopp

The pikemen seem way too invincible from the front, but you sometimes get the same results when they work properly in vanilla. The problem of course is that they don't always work properly in vanilla. This 'fix' (tweak or cheat might be just as appropriate) definitely makes them more consistent, but risks leaving them overpowered.

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Is it a bad thing for pikes to be invincible from the front? This sounds fine to me. They can still be dealt with via outflanking and missile fire.

Thanks for this, indespensible for my personal Pike and Musket mod.

I find it fair enough that militia pikes have a problem at maintaining formation, they are after all just above rabble with long sticks. It does look stupid though.

However Swiss Pikemen and perhaps Flemish as well, would be far more disciplined, and wuld not draw their swords until the very last moment. So perhaps they, the Landsknechts, Scottish Noble Pikes and Tercios should be the only ones to not have swords?
The would make them viable on the offensive, while the lesser pikes would be strong defensive units, there mainly to hold the frontlines while cavalry or strong infantry flank.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

I find it fair enough that militia pikes have a problem at maintaining formation, they are after all just above rabble with long sticks. It does look stupid though.

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Hardly cheap rabble though, considering the expense of that militia barracks you need to get them. Militia pikes performed much poorer on tests than the professionals, losing over twice as many men and breaking easily when the swordsmen spilled over onto their flanks. They only have morale 3 compared to 9-11 for elite pikes, and their formation-keeping is only trained instead of highly_trained.

This is probably the reason england so handily beats scotland in terms of infantry balance, IMHO.

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Originally Posted by dopp

Hardly cheap rabble though, considering the expense of that militia barracks you need to get them. Militia pikes performed much poorer on tests than the professionals, losing over twice as many men and breaking easily when the swordsmen spilled over onto their flanks. They only have morale 3 compared to 9-11 for elite pikes, and their formation-keeping is only trained instead of highly_trained.

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Ah yes, but it is the thinking behind the pikes that is the expensive part. It still demands a good deal to figure that out (apparently), and it requires a certain degree of local logistics (in terms of weapons and trainers) to get it going.
Also you have to consider the fact that without a 'Marius event' there is little to limit the pikes, other than relatively high tech. So that you get pikes at an appropriate age... I don't think it is fair to coldly look at the costs needed to get to pikes. Their techlevel is a limit on their appearance in time, not a realistic guage as to how effective the troops are at killing.

But you yourself argued that pikes are far too strong now that they have no swords. So I argued that the strong pikes should not get swords as they are more than anything underpowered in 1v1, compared to their cost and the historical records.

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Originally Posted by Kraxis

But you yourself argued that pikes are far too strong now that they have no swords. So I argued that the strong pikes should not get swords as they are more than anything underpowered in 1v1, compared to their cost and the historical records.

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I think it's okay for militia pikes to have no swords as well in that case, since they are far more fragile than the professionals. You even stand a chance of beating them frontally if you throw something hard enough at them. It's the professionals I'm a little concerned about, it's no fun for a Turkish or Byzantine player to throw Janissaries and Varangians and watch them go splat against Swiss or something.

Note: Pikemen can still be beaten easily if you flank or rear them. A cavalry charge to the rear will destroy them as easily as any other unit. A swordsmen unit that overlaps the flanks will also trounce them handily. It's to the front that they are almost invincible as their kill rate is unbelievably fast. Once again, achieving this kill rate *is* possible in vanilla, I just made it possible anytime, all the time.

I wonder how halberds fare against you buffed-up pikes... If I'm not mistaken, they were invented to beat them in the first place weren't they ? Break the pike, then chop up the pikeman, sort of thing ?

But I'd say a push of pike wouldn't have very fast killing rates. Invincible from the front, perhaps, probably even, but killing knights by the wagon, by the second ? Hardly. Slow but steady would be my uninformed guess. Maybe giving them the same "lethality" as spears would do the trick ? Then again I seem to remember that the lethality stat from Rome is now used for something else alltogether, so that might not work :/

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Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

I wonder how halberds fare against you buffed-up pikes... If I'm not mistaken, they were invented to beat them in the first place weren't they ? Break the pike, then chop up the pikeman, sort of thing ?

But I'd say a push of pike wouldn't have very fast killing rates. Invincible from the front, perhaps, probably even, but killing knights by the wagon, by the second ? Hardly. Slow but steady would be my uninformed guess. Maybe giving them the same "lethality" as spears would do the trick ? Then again I seem to remember that the lethality stat from Rome is now used for something else alltogether, so that might not work :/

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Refer to the test I did with JHI. No contest, instant death after the charge. That's what concerns me the most, the way halberds (and very good halberds at that) lose to the pikes now, since some factions only get high-level halberds/bills instead of pikes as their ultimate heavy infantry, ie they should be roughly equivalent in performance. Right now the halberds lose too easily, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the pikes. But if you use vanilla settings, then it's the halberds who chop the pikes into tiny pieces without breaking a sweat, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the halberds.

Part of the problem, of course, is that I doubt you would see either pure pikes or pure halberd formations historically, but the game doesn't have mixed formations like that.

I'm not sure about halberds beating pikes (or legions beating phalanxes, or 2-handers breaking pike formations, or sword-and-bucklers poking pikemen to death). The pike appears to have remained in use whereas the supposed counters quickly disappeared, something that cannot be attributed solely to the use of musketeers in combination with the pikemen. I doubt carrying a pike makes a person any more bulletproof than carrying a sword, yet pikemen are used in large numbers until the invention of the bayonet allows them to carry muskets and shoot as well. Pikemen were aggressively used as heavy infantry as well and often decided battles in the center, so the idea that they were meant solely to protect the gunners against cavalry doesn't hold water either.

Their kill rate is ridiculously fast, but then again the general melee kill rate in M2TW is pretty high as well. The pikeman attack animation is not very fast by itself, but the formation means 4 pikemen are poking at every attacker. Maybe reducing their attack to spearmen level (right now it's somewhere around swordsmen level) would suffice to lower the lethality a little. Good pikemen average attack 10, while Swiss are 14. 5 and 7 might be better values.

If CA would just let them use their pikes a little longer it would solve things a lot better than all this tweaking. I want to see my pikemen poke, RPS balance is a poor excuse for making them switch to swords any time they are attacked by something other than cavalry (if that is indeed the reason). Even against cavalry they switch to swords after the charge, it's just that with +8 attack vs horse the horsemen are so decimated by the impact that they run almost immediately. Say what you want about finding bug where there are none, but as things stand now, pikemen don't deliver.

It is possible to have it both ways. Halberds can deliver and so can pikes. It's not mutually exclusive, but currently in an unmodded version neither really deliver (except JHI). At least we got one working this way, plus combined with any one of the 2H fixes might make it all come together. Nobody should be attacking pikes head on anyway.

Are they also invincible if attacked from the rear ? I guess not right ?

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Originally Posted by dopp

Refer to the test I did with JHI. No contest, instant death after the charge. That's what concerns me the most, the way halberds (and very good halberds at that) lose to the pikes now, since some factions only get high-level halberds/bills instead of pikes as their ultimate heavy infantry, ie they should be roughly equivalent in performance. Right now the halberds lose too easily, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the pikes. But if you use vanilla settings, then it's the halberds who chop the pikes into tiny pieces without breaking a sweat, which leaves half the factions without heavy infantry to match the halberds.

Part of the problem, of course, is that I doubt you would see either pure pikes or pure halberd formations historically, but the game doesn't have mixed formations like that.

I'm not sure about halberds beating pikes (or legions beating phalanxes, or 2-handers breaking pike formations, or sword-and-bucklers poking pikemen to death). The pike appears to have remained in use whereas the supposed counters quickly disappeared, something that cannot be attributed solely to the use of musketeers in combination with the pikemen. I doubt carrying a pike makes a person any more bulletproof than carrying a sword, yet pikemen are used in large numbers until the invention of the bayonet allows them to carry muskets and shoot as well. Pikemen were aggressively used as heavy infantry as well and often decided battles in the center, so the idea that they were meant solely to protect the gunners against cavalry doesn't hold water either.

Their kill rate is ridiculously fast, but then again the general melee kill rate in M2TW is pretty high as well. The pikeman attack animation is not very fast by itself, but the formation means 4 pikemen are poking at every attacker. Maybe reducing their attack to spearmen level (right now it's somewhere around swordsmen level) would suffice to lower the lethality a little. Good pikemen average attack 10, while Swiss are 14. 5 and 7 might be better values.

If CA would just let them use their pikes a little longer it would solve things a lot better than all this tweaking. I want to see my pikemen poke, RPS balance is a poor excuse for making them switch to swords any time they are attacked by something other than cavalry (if that is indeed the reason). Even against cavalry they switch to swords after the charge, it's just that with +8 attack vs horse the horsemen are so decimated by the impact that they run almost immediately. Say what you want about finding bug where there are none, but as things stand now, pikemen don't deliver.

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JHI are NOT halberdiers. Halberds have the spearwall formation, JHI do not. Try them against actual Halberd Militia.

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Originally Posted by Sinan

Are they also invincible if attacked from the rear ? I guess not right ?

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Heh, if I could figure out how to post screenies I have a nice shot of Noble Pikemen receiving a fatal overdose of Demi-Lancers to the rear. Pikemen are just as vulnerable to rear charges as any other unit, even more so as only the individual pikemen being attacked will turn around to strike (with pikes OR swords; the mod doesn't seem to make a difference in the pikemen's rather poor ability to defend themselves against flankers).

I also have a nice screen of JHI overlapping a Tercio. The Tercios killed all the JHI immediately facing them, but got massacred on the flanks. The flanking 16 JHI killed 40-60 pikemen and would have destroyed the whole unit if I didn't switch spear wall off and allowed the pikemen to defend themselves.

The real, real problem with pikemen is that they don't use the reach of their pike to full advantage. Order a unit of pikemen to attack another and you'll see what I mean. The unit moving to engage will try to walk into the target, whereupon both sides will break out swords and it becomes a swordsmen fight from then on. No push of pike at all. Or brace a unit of pikemen and run a unit of swords into it. The pikemen will draw swords and kill off the attackers who break into the formation, then they will close with the enemy and fight as swordsmen from then on. Even with this "tweak" I've had the AI try to walk pikemen through my DGK, taking hideous losses in the process. The custom battle AI is a little retarded when it comes to using pikemen.

Btw, I tried JHI against Jaguar Warriors and they lost all 3 times. Are they really overpowered? They seem to be made of tissue paper and their attack animation isn't all that fast either.

You can post screens by:

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Hmmm... Halberd militia seems to need a boost... They get creamed by Pike Militia when they should realistically win. The smaller unit size and weaker stats are making them basically useless...

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Originally Posted by Musashi

Hmmm... Halberd militia seems to need a boost... They get creamed by Pike Militia when they should realistically win. The smaller unit size and weaker stats are making them basically useless...

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Swiss guards get creamed by pike militia too. Swiss guards get creamed by Aztec warriors. Halberds sux.

A few more observations on vanilla settings (without the proposed fix):

On vanilla, pikemen are still pretty strong, but it looks dumb. SWITCH GUARD MODE OFF against infantry, guard mode (and the cool braced position) is almost completely useless against swordsmen.

With guard mode off, the pikes will still stop the initial infantry charge. The pikemen will poke aggressively two or three times and clear the entire front rank of attackers. Looks fantastic, but then the entire unit switches over to swords. Fortunately, they have usually inflicted enough kills to see the enemy off. So the pikes become sort of defensive lances, used just for the initial charge and discarded for the REAL weapons. Something wrong here...

I think you're smoking something. I just tested Swiss Guard vs. Pike Militia, and it was a massacre...

The Swiss Guard won with 89 men left, vs. 5 pike militia.

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Originally Posted by Musashi

I think you're smoking something. I just tested Swiss Guard vs. Pike Militia, and it was a massacre...

The Swiss Guard won with 89 men left, vs. 5 pike militia.

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Did you play the Swiss or the Pikes? The AI is hopeless at using pikes, modded or not, it'll just order the pikes to walk through the enemy.

I played as the Swiss Guard... Turned off guard mode, and accepted the pike charge. I've got the pikes modded so they won't switch to swords. They still got murdered.

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Originally Posted by Musashi

I played as the Swiss Guard... Turned off guard mode, and accepted the pike charge. I've got the pikes modded so they won't switch to swords. They still got murdered.

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Exactly. Switch and play the pike miltia, they'll chew through the Swiss, guaranteed. You *could* give the same fix to halberds, but then they'll just become pikemen with AP. They won't chop or swing, just poke.

Something interesting playing vanilla pikes in custom battle. You'd think bracing in guard mode helps. It doesn't. French lancers vs pike militia, the militia held against the lancers' formed charge whether braced or not. Switched off spear wall (gulp). The lancers' formed charge *still* failed, but they beat the pikemen to death in melee. In fact, pikemen sux against cav in melee. They switch to swords and get massacred by their betters. Kills are about equal, except that the horsemen run out of people before the pikemen do (80 vs 150). Fun stuff. I think I might report this as a bug now.

Well, I played Militia Halberds vs AI Militia Pikes, and the Pikes OWNED the halberds. I mean, horrifically destroyed them. So it's not just player influence.

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Originally Posted by dopp

So the pikes become sort of defensive lances, used just for the initial charge and [then] discarded for the REAL weapons.

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You have discovered both the utility of the pike, and the digitized desire for survival that causes pikemen to reach for proper hand weapons in close melee!

After the Frecnch Lancers' initial charge in your test, did they attempt to continue poking with their lances as an effective tactic in melee? Had they done so, it might have been reasonable for the pikemen to meet reach with reach. But I suspect the knights, being mounted heavy infantry, switched to swords so that they could force a new paradigm on the pikemen; a paradigm that negates the reach and formation advantages of a phalanx. The digitized desire for survival tells the pikeman that his 18 feet of twig is going to be of little use against the men and horse that are fighting him from inside his own formation...

By the way, how do Scottish Noble Pikes fare in melee with other heavy infantry troops? That is, after the Scots have swished to swords? It would seem that the heavy armor of the Noble Pikemen, combined with their (presumably) increased competency as swordsman, would come closer to your desire for an all purpose unit that can stop chargers dead and also defeat other heavy inf. on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by General Zhukov

You have discovered both the utility of the pike, and the digitized desire for survival that causes pikemen to reach for proper hand weapons in close melee!

After the Frecnch Lancers' initial charge in your test, did they attempt to continue poking with their lances as an effective tactic in melee? Had they done so, it might have been reasonable for the pikemen to meet reach with reach. But I suspect the knights, being mounted heavy infantry, switched to swords so that they could force a new paradigm on the pikemen; a paradigm that negates the reach and formation advantages of a phalanx. The digitized desire for survival tells the pikeman that his 18 feet of twig is going to be of little use against the men and horse that are fighting him from inside his own formation...

By the way, how do Scottish Noble Pikes fare in melee with other heavy infantry troops? That is, after the Scots have swished to swords? It would seem that the heavy armor of the Noble Pikemen, combined with their (presumably) increased competency as swordsman, would come closer to your desire for an all purpose unit that can stop chargers dead and also defeat other heavy inf. on the battlefield.

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All pikemen are inferior swordsmen (not hopeless, just poorer than real swordsmen) because of three main things:

1. Slower sword attack animation (about 2/3 the speed of a real swordsmen).
2. No shield.
3. Lower defense skill.

The whole purpose of the spear wall is to prevent enemies from getting within arm's length. If my enemy wants to be dumb enough to draw a sword when I have 18 feet of reach on him and can bring two weapons to bear (M2TW pikemen attack in 2 ranks, spearmen only 1 rank) to his one, should I really be a gentleman and use my sword to even the odds? That's like fighting Jet Li hand-to-hand when you have an assault rifle.

The all-purpose unit that can stop charges and turn them into mincemeat is the Western Halberd Militia (and elites like Swiss Guard). They form spear wall to break the charge, then switch over to hacking. They actually have two weapons. The primary weapon is a pike (but using the halberd graphics) with all the associated bonuses. The secondary weapon is the halberd proper with hacking animations. Because both primary and secondary weapons use the same graphics, you won't notice that they are actually "switching" weapons after they break the charge.

Pikemen break the charge and switch over to secondary weapons too, but their secondary weapon is the sword, thus it looks a bit dumb and it greatly weakens their combat effectiveness. The weapon switching code seems more optimized for halberdiers than pikemen at the moment.

Can someone please post this mod up for people who have no idea how to mod. I would greatly appreciate this and it would make my day. Thank You

I've implemented this fix and love it. The pikes are a bit too strong now, with a tad too much ability to "turn" even in formation and fight, but they're not invincible. But now I've managed to have some real tercio vs landsknecht battles, utilizing historical pike & shot tactics. Great find, dopp!

A workaround to vanilla M2TW pikemen that I've found works quite well is to switch the pikemen's "stance" upon impact. What usually happens is as soon as infantry charge into pikemen, they break out of their pike formation and whip out the swords.

So I've been trying stuff out, and it seems if you keep the pikemen out of spearwall formation, they'll still form it, break the charge and start switching to swords. Just as they start lifting the pikes, if you activate spearwall formation, it seems to renew the "hold pike" command and they bring their pikes back down to hold the enemy infantry away. The only infantry that slip through the pikes this way are stray units that slip around the side to the flanks, and any unit that slipped through the pike wall while you do your little reform maneuver right after the charge. Usually one or two pikemen will whip out their swords to take care of said infantry (with some casualties depending on how tough the charging infantry is), while the rest keep their pikes in place. Then you can turn off "defend" mode at your leisure to have the pike wall push forward. It's micromanagement-intensive, but it works.

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Originally Posted by Spark

A workaround to vanilla M2TW pikemen that I've found works quite well is to switch the pikemen's "stance" upon impact. What usually happens is as soon as infantry charge into pikemen, they break out of their pike formation and whip out the swords.

So I've been trying stuff out, and it seems if you keep the pikemen out of spearwall formation, they'll still form it, break the charge and start switching to swords. Just as they start lifting the pikes, if you activate spearwall formation, it seems to renew the "hold pike" command and they bring their pikes back down to hold the enemy infantry away. The only infantry that slip through the pikes this way are stray units that slip around the side to the flanks, and any unit that slipped through the pike wall while you do your little reform maneuver right after the charge. Usually one or two pikemen will whip out their swords to take care of said infantry (with some casualties depending on how tough the charging infantry is), while the rest keep their pikes in place. Then you can turn off "defend" mode at your leisure to have the pike wall push forward. It's micromanagement-intensive, but it works.

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Yeah that was the "old" way of doing it. But once again it doesn't always work and the time window is very narrow. Doing that for a whole line of pikemen units when they all get charged at once is very difficult. Considering you have to go through all that just to get the pikemen to do what they are supposed to be doing in the first place (ie use pikes against frontal chargers), I'd say something is wrong with them.

interesting information. i have my own opinions and have developed my own workarounds.

for one when the pike took over the battlefield even polearms had difficulty making it through the spearwall. the swiss originally used halberds but when they experimented with pikes to give them help against heavy horse they decided to try and adapt that old phalanx from ancient times.

turned out they not only emulated it they made it even better. combined with supporting units of halberdiers they could defeat armies without depending on a cavalry arm the way the mecedonians did.

the halberdiers acted as the flexible force that assaulted fortifications exploited breaches in the enemies line or hit an exposed flank. but against the formidable pike wall even hacking and trying to splinter the pikes down would take so long the battle would be over or they would have been pushed off a cliff.

the only sure way to stop pikes was with pikes just like in world war two it was said that the best anti-tank weapon was another tank.against the dead end evolution of the great sword or(processional sword as it was called).the game definetly overdramatizes that weapon. the name itself suggest it eventual duties. it was designed i think to counter the pike wall with the intention to hack and splinter pikes and get into the mass of unarmed pikemen at its center and created carnage.

sadly the examples i have seen at military collectors shows demonstrate their weakness in that they would often break near the secondary quillon a victim of their great length just like the poor irish elk of prehistoric times.it seemed that a wood beam been hit by a long piece of metal would do more damage to the metal than the seasoned wood.

on to the second topic. i have found a workaround for those who either dont mod or who multiplayer and that is what i call the pike column.

heres how it works take at least two pike units and organize them in column but spread them only two deep. in battle order them to attack enemy when they engage the front formation does its well known wooden swords dance but the second formation engages fully this in turn encourages the front formation to pick their pikes back up and start poking again. most enemy units crack so quick that there isnt any time for their comrades to flank you.

organized in 4 unit column blocks they have unusual discipline and ability to resist flank attacks without routing.even though you are engaged with a more flexible foe they just cant seem to understand that while they are awed at your invincible formation you have just dusted half their army with heavy knights and "assault peasants" who bear the awe inspiring pitchfork(bane of the knight).

there is no need to use much missile units if any since you will crush his melee units and slower moving missile and horse archers will run out of arrows because of the new game mechanics.

hail to the mighty pike.

So what is the upshot to this thread? Take away their swords or not? Some report it makes no difference others that it is too powerful. :help:

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Originally Posted by Dearmad

So what is the upshot to this thread? Take away their swords or not? Some report it makes no difference others that it is too powerful. :help:

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There are too many variables here. Just try pikes yourself, and see if you think they need "help" with you personal style of play and game settings.

FWIW, I'm happy with vanilla, un-modded pike units (Tercio, in my Spanish campaign), because I never build them until I'm also building lots of musketeers as a combined army, to take down the armored guys before they can reach the pikes and do much damage, or force them into weird fighting modes. Before good armor-piercing gunpowder units are available, I don't mess with pikes. I just use dismounted knights.

It depends on whether you want them to poke or not. It depends on whether you consider them heavy infantry or just lame roadblocks to protect the gunners. I like to think that pikes were formidable in themselves and not simply there to kill knights so that the musketeers can continue to shoot.

To recap, taking away their swords makes them almost invincible from the front. They still remain vulnerable to flank and rear charges, missile fire and other pikes. Any unit that attacks them from the front will take heavy losses. They will use their pikes more. They will actually be able to march up and attack the enemy with pikes properly. They will actually be pikemen and not swordsmen.

It depends on whether you want them to poke or not. It depends on whether you consider them heavy infantry or just lame roadblocks to protect the gunners. I like to think that pikes were formidable in themselves and not simply there to kill knights so that the musketeers can continue to shoot.

To recap, taking away their swords makes them almost invincible from the front. They still remain vulnerable to flank and rear charges, missile fire and other pikes. Any unit that attacks them from the front will take heavy losses. They will use their pikes more. They will actually be able to march up and attack the enemy with pikes properly. They will actually be pikemen and not swordsmen.

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Originally Posted by dopp

It depends on whether you want them to poke or not. It depends on whether you consider them heavy infantry or just lame roadblocks to protect the gunners. I like to think that pikes were formidable in themselves and not simply there to kill knights so that the musketeers can continue to shoot.

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Lame roadblocks??? :inquisitive:

These guys have practically no armor. It doesn't make sense to me, to use them as my primary front line against heavily armored units, until I have a supporting unit like armor-piercing musketeers.

But there are many ways to play the game. I'm certainly not arguing against using them earlier, or unsupported, or whatever works for you. For me, they need support. They work so well with decent support that I don't feel a strong urge to mode them away from vanilla. But that's just me.

Historically speaking, a disciplined pike wall could easily halt and roll over enemy infantry. In fact, I believe the pike was the dominant weapon on the battlefield until the musket started taking over.

In-game pikemen can barely hold off infantry charges unless you fiddle with the controls, and they are atrocious if you try to use them offensively. M2TW seems to portray pikemen as very cheap units (both recruitment & upkeep) that are a shadow of what they realistically should be. It works well for game balance though, since if pikemen performed the way they should, there wouldn't be much use for conventional infantry, and factions with strong pikemen would have a huge advantage over factions with weak/no pike units.

Meh, gimping pikemen so that basic swordsmen can beat them with ease is a little extreme in the other direction. Even peasants can beat them on a good day, especially when they do the elbow maneuver after you issue them an attack order.