Imperial Diet

[OOC] This thread is for players in the King of the Romans PBM to post in character public deliberations in the Imperial Diet. All out of character debate should be conducted in the OOC thread.

The Diet has two main functions: to elect a Chancellor, who manage the Empire, and to pass Edicts that will direct the Chancellor.

The Diet will be chaired by Kaiser Heinrich (GeneralHankerchief) or, in his absence, by his son, Prinz Henry (econ21).

Edicts need to be formally proposed as follows:

Edict 1.1This House directs the Chancellor to occupy Hamburg.

where 1.1 refers to the first proposed edict of the first session of the Diet.

Edicts need two seconders (who should explicitly use the word "second" when supporting a motion) before they can be put to the vote. Where edicts conflict, the one with more votes takes precedence.

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Summary of Edicts proposed in Fifth Session of Diet

(Current up to post #536)

5.1 We should seek allies in England and Russia. This will force our enemies to a two front war if they dare attack us or our ally, especially as we currently do not share borders with these nations. At the same time, the alliances should only be decided if they shall pay us tribute for it, for we are the more superior nation. (aim for barely accepted)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, 6th Elector of Bavaria

5.2 We need to move out all superfluous troops out from the heartland and leave just enough there to keep public order. These troops should be used to reinforce our borders and fronts.
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Steward Maximillian Mandorf, Duke Leopold

5.3 The elimination of Milan
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, 2nd Elector of Austria

5.4 Driving Venice back to at least Ragusa, leaving them with this region and Iraklion at the most
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Duke Otto

5.5 Attempt to make the Poles our vassals (without spending more than map info and 5000 florins)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia

5.6 Attempt to make Milan our vassals (without spending more than map info and 5000 florins)
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia

5.7 The training of additional clergy to root out heresy and allow more of our cardinals into the college.
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

5.8 Training of at least 2 good assassins to take care of high profile political targets
Proposed: Fifth Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Jonas von Mahren; Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.9 Reich will start offensive against Poland by taking Magdeburg and continuing the offensive untill either Poland sues for peace or Papal warning of excommunication is given.
Proposed: Duke Dietrich von Saxony
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.10 Holy Roman Empire suggests an alliance to Hungary.
Proposed: Duke Dietrich von Saxony
Seconded: Sixth Elector of Franconia, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.11:Sigismund der Brav is to be sent against the French armies invading Burgundy. After that he shall proceed to conquer France until a Papal warning is given. Sigismund alone shall be sent against the French, as the other generals are needed in Italy and Poland.
Proposed: Count Sigismund der Brav
Withdrawn

Edict 5.12: The Empire is to adopt a defensive posture in the west in an attempt to lead to the excommunication of France. When France is excommunicated, the posture is to switch to an offensive one - aiming at Rheims and then Paris.
Proposed: Prinz Henry
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.13: All Milanese forces remaining in Italy are to be destroyed.
Proposed: Count Otto von Kassel
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Prinz Henry

5.14 If England does not accept an Alliance on reasonable terms that favor us, we ally with Scotland instead, of course only if they are more reasonable than the English.
Proposed: 5th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel, Steward Maximillan Mandorf

Edict 5.15: The large Milanese army outside Florence will be destroyed. After this is accomplished, we will seek to establish a ceasefire with Milan, so long as one can be obtained without cost to the Reich.
Proposed: Steward Maximillian Mandorf
Seconded: Duke Leopold, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.16: The nobility of our foes are subject to assassination.
Proposed: 4th Elector of Bavaria
Seconded: Emperor Heinrich; 5th elector of Swabia

Edict 5.17: Any aggression via the Papacy towards the Reich will result in an offensive against Rome via our field armies and the Pope will be subject to the proposed Edict 5.16.
Proposed: 4th Elector of Bavaria
Seconded: Count Otto von Kassel

Edict 5.18 - Every city and castle of all levels in the Empire are to have built at least 1 type of Economic help in that city, in 5 years limit
Proposed: Jobst von Salza
Seconded: Jonas von Mahren

Edict 5.19: All agent training is to be suspended in order to cut back on royal spending
Proposed: 4th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: Duke Leopold

Edict 5.20: All cities with access to the sea must build the needed facilities to encourage and boost commerce.
Proposed: Jonas von Mahren
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria; Count Sigismund

Edict 5.21: The Reich will contact those nations with whom we are not at war, and have no direct conflicts of interests with, and attempt to improve our diplomatic relationships, with florins if necessary.
Proposed: Jonas von Mahren
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.22 we send diplomates to gather good relations with other nations... short of the spending of Florines on them giving money to peoples when we need it is not a wise decision...
Proposed: 6th Elector of Bavaria

Edict 5.23: during the term of the next chanceler... the reich sizes Magdeburg and/or Bresalu... to provide a buffer zone and future launch sites for invasion agianst Poland
Proposed: 5th Elector of Austria
Seconded: Duke Leopold, 5th Elector of Swabia

Edict 5.24: The future Chancellor will avoid excommunication by Pope Gregory by following Papal cease and desist orders to the letter.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.25: Duke Leopold is to be put at the head of an army large enough to seize and hold Zagreb.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.26: If Venice has not fallen until the events of Edict 5.25 have passed Duke Leopold is to be given enough men to assault and conquer the city of Venice.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: Maximillian Mandorf, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.27: The spy Sifridus von Swabia is to be sent to the vicinity of Budapest. If he can infiltrate the city without a considerable risk for his life he should do so. Otherwise it will suffice he is active in the countryside surrounding Budapest.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: 5th Elector of Swabia, Maximillian Mandorf

Edict 5.28: To prevent Hungarian aggression against the Austrian capital Vienna it's garrison has to kept at a minimum of six units, capable of defending the city.
Proposed: Duke Leopold
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria

Edict 5.29: The chancellor shall endeavor to send emissaries (without needing to train new ones) to contact other nations we have no contacts with to obtain alliances, and trade rights. Our payment shall be no more than map information and he shall aim to make all contacts pay appropriately for spending our time and efforts on them.
Proposed: 5th Elector of Swabia
Seconded: 6th Elector of Austria, Dietrich Von Saxony

Edict 5.30: As a demonstration of the price of betrayal and to send a message to all of Europe that the Reich will not be defied, when the city of Venice is taken the populace will be exterminated.
Proposed: Count Otto
Seconded: Duke Leopold; 5th Elector of Swabia

Charter Amendment 5.1: Each Duchy shall have a Household Army with which to defend its territories. The Household Army will be governed by the following clauses:
1) The Household Army may not be removed from the House’s provinces without the permission of the Duke.
2) The Duke will determine where the Household Army is to be garrisoned. This location can be changed at any time, so long as the Duke informs the Chancellor of the move. The Chancellor will not remove the Household Army from the garrison without the Duke’s permission, except as required to fulfill Clause 4.
3) The Duke will determine who commands the Household Army.
4) At the beginning of each Diet session the Duke may assign general orders to the Household Army, which are to be carried out by the Chancellor. Between Diet sessions, any additional orders submitted by Dukes are to be implemented only at the Chancellor's discretion. The Duke may select one of the following Orders: (1) attack any rebel force in House territory, (2) attack any hostile force in House territory, including other factions, (3) attack any foreign or rebel army in House territory, including neutral (but not allied or crusading) factions, (4) temporary assignment to another House, (5) assignment to offensive duties. If Order (4) is chosen, the Duke may determine the time limit of the temporary assignment and the commanding general, but all other decisions are made by the Duke of the receiving house. When the time limit expires, the Household Army must be immediately returned to House lands, no matter what other circumstances occur, unless the Duke agrees otherwise. If Order (5) is chosen, the Duke may specify an enemy settlement or army as the objective and the commanding general. The settlement or army must be in a province that borders the House and the Reich must already be at war with the target. All other decisions are made by the Chancellor. The Duke may recall the Household Army from offensive duties at any time and for any reason.
5) The Household Army will consist of a minimum of 3 infantry regiments, 2 ranged regiments, and 1 cavalry regiment. The Household Army will ideally consist of 4 infantry regiments, 3 ranged regiments, and 2 cavalry regiments. For the purposes of this rule, Generals’ bodyguard units do not count as cavalry regiments. All regiments must be professional soldiers, not militia.
6) If a Household Army falls below the minimum strength level, Imperial military recruitment must be allocated to restoring the Household Army to minimum strength before forces can be sent elsewhere.
7) The Chancellor will attempt to maintain the Household Armies at full strength, with the highest quality regiments available.
8) In emergencies, the Chancellor may detach any units in excess of the minimum strength level for use elsewhere. The Chancellor may not reduce a Household Army below the minimum strength level without the permission of the Duke.
9) If the Imperial Treasury cannot support all Household Armies at minimum strength, the Chancellor must consult with the Dukes and receive their permission to reduce the Household Armies in such a way as to eliminate the deficit.
10) The Imperial Diet may temporarily remove any or all of these rules by a simple majority vote. The temporary period will last no longer than 10 turns.
Proposed: Steward Maximillan Mandorf
Seconded: Count Fredericus von Hamburg; Duke Dietrich von Saxony

Charter Ammendment 5.2 (revised): Each Elector may only propose ONE edict or charter ammendments per Diet. In addition, Dukes may propose THREE House edicts per Diet provided that they have previously securing the backing of two other members of their House.
Proposed: Prinz Henry
Seconded: Duke Dietrich von Saxony, Count Otto von Kassel

Charter Amendment 5.3: This Amendment revises several Game Rules to keep them updated and prevent future confusions. The following Rules are revised as listed.

Quote:

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All lines with strikethroughs will be permanently removed.

Rule 2.4 is revised to state: 2.4 The Chancellor is elected every 10 turns. Incumbent Chancellors can run for re-election if they wish.

Rule 3.7 is revised to state: 3.7 Every 10 turns, or on the death or impeachment of the Chancellor, there is an election for the post of Chancellor. Ties lead to a fresh ballot. A second tie is decided by seniority (avatar age). Voting is open for 2 days.

Rule 5.2 is revised to state: Once in his reign, the Emperor may automatically assume the post of Chancellor. The Emperor must declare he is exercising that right at a Diet; he will then be appointed Chancellor with no election. This right can only be invoked once, but the Emperor may also compete in normal Chancellorship elections at other Diets.

Rule 6.4 will have the following words deleted from it “get a permanent +1 influence and”

Rule 6.6 is revised to state: 6.6 The title of Field Marshall shall be given to the commanders of the Household Armies for the duration of their command.

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Proposed: Steward Mandorf
Seconded: Prinz Henry; Duke Leopold
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Prinz Henry: Pray, silence, my Lords, for the opening of the first session of the Imperial Diet! There will be a three day period of debate for the proposing and seconding of edicts. After that, there will be a 24 hour period of voting (starting Thursday 6pm UK time).

Normally, there will be also be an election of Chancellor. However, this time, I believe my father, Kaiser Heinrich, wishes to exercise his right to assume the office. We eagerly await a speech from him, setting out his plan for the Empire, so as to frame our debates.

Kaiser Heinrich: Thank you Prinz Henry, you are correct to assume that I will exercise my right as Emperor to personally take command of the Holy Roman Empire for a ten-year period as Chancellor. Once my reign has ended, we shall of course hold our normal elections for Chancellor, but that is a long time away. The matters to discuss are the ones of the present.

We need land, people. The four Dukes have told me so, and who am I to not satisfy my subjects? There are several independent cities around us, such as Hamburg, Florence, Stettin, and Prague, to name a few. It would be mutually beneficial to them as well as us for them to be placed under the benevolent rule of the Holy Roman Empire.

I propose (with the Diet's approval, of course) that my reign be one of expansion. Once these cities are under control, then the people of all the world shall fear the Empire once again!

Special emphasis must be placed on the capture of Florence. For too long have Rome and her Italian allies thumbed their noses at us. An unstoppable army, commanded by the Kaiser himself, conquering a city that close to Rome will make the Pope rightfully shudder at our power.

Our conquest of the independent settlements shall satisfy our financial needs, but I will be sending diplomats far and wide to secure trade rights with all the world. In addition, I have heard that our merchants wish to go into foreign lands in order to take control of resources and sell them to our people. This, if properly implanted, will significantly boost our treasury, which will be a boon for future building projects.

I shall propose a series of edicts shortly, but do not want this Diet bored to death by the sound of their Emperor's voice. Let someone else take the floor. I hereby declare this session of the Diet... open. *bangs gavel*

Prinz Henry: Here, here! God save the Kaiser! Long live the King of the Romans!

I am delighted to support my father's plan to bring the rebellious cities around us into the warm embrace of Empire. As well as Florence, I would advocate prioritising the occupation of Hamburg. I fear if we are slow, the Danes may steal it from us. I fear no man, but the Danes have terrorised Europe for several hundred years. We must not let them expand south or the consequences may be grave for our Empire.

I would also urge the Dukes and Stewards to plan the development of their settlements for coming period. Cities should consider developing barracks to house militia at no extra cost. For Staufen, I believe key priorities are a good road network, for rapid movement of troops and merchandise, and the development of farms to foster both economic and population growth. I will set out these priorities more explicitly before this session of the Diet closes on Friday and urge the other Dukes to do likewise for their realms.

One final matter - I believe good relations with the Papacy will be crucial to our success. I propose:

Edict 1.1: The Empire will send a diplomat to Rome, to establish there a permanent residence. He will reguarly gift florins to the Papacy to allow it to carry out its holy work and, incidentally, strengthen our relations with the Vatican.

Noble lords, the Pope's word carries great weight in the Councils of Europe and indeed in the streets of our cities - we would defy him at our peril. We cannot risk being a pariah among the faithful. Indeed, such is the religious fervour of the people of Christendom, I believe we may be able to mobilise it to smite our godless enemies. The Muslims have recently taken Jerusalem. This is a dark time for the people of God. We have set ourselves the goal of restoring Jerusalem to our Holy Roman Empire. If we have the backing of the Pope, all the great Christian nations of Europe may lend support to us in this quest.

OOC: Don't you mean edict, econ?

Swabian Elector: The Kaiser is right! Recent rebellions have weakened the Empire; we must reconquer these lost lands.

I propose that the castle of Metz be taken with all speed. We cannot allow the Burgundians' rebellion to go unpunished. I say that we march against them immediately. For, if the French were to seize this most valuable stronghold, who knows what havoc they could do? I depise the despicable French who are to despised most of all. The weak French kings cannot rule Paris itself let alone France, but we should not give these weaklings even the sniff of a chance to seize a valuable fotress on our borders.

As to whose responsibilty its capture is assigned, I say that Swabia should undertake this noble task.

Edict 1.2: The Empire shall send an army to capture the castle at Metz within 5 turns to establish a strong border with the Kingdom of France.

Dietrich turns to face the Swabian side of the diet. Don't you think you're being a bit hasty? With William currently gifting the French with headache after headache thanks to his conquest of England, I think such a swift conquest of Metz may be unmerited, and place other sections of the Empire at peril. We have strong enemies all around, and focusing too hastily on one section of the empire places us all at risk.

I've thought much of the current situation, our standing with the Pope, and what may be done to bring us all into greatter prosperity. In that respect I propose the following edicts for review by the diet.

The Danes have harried and hassled Europe over the past centuries and proven their worth as warriors and raiders, but have recently come to a stall. Their current king, I believe, has come into some amount of wisdom in his years and may be keen to alter Denmark's attitude towards the rest of the world. But there is no guarantee that he will be able to control all men of influence in his still somewhat barbaric nation. In that respect, I propose the following.

Edict 1.3 - The House of Franconia instructs the chancellor to immediately besiege Hamburg with the army north of Frankfurt. I, Dietrich von Saxony could arrive to lead the army within 4 years time (2 turns), to ensure the success of our endeavours.

I will not disappoint, nor will the results of this conquest. Hamburg will provide us with a port in the north, block the more zealous Danes from southern expansion, and, if they cannot be controlled, at the very least provide us with a forward, easily defensive position against their aggressions. It also opens us up to the possibility of later deciding what to do with the Germans of Magdeburg and Stettin. Both cities worth bringing into the Imperial fold.

To the south, we have the issue of Bologne and the Italian city states. Kaiser Heinrich is currently in Bologne but I fear he may shortly become seen as an unwanted German guest in a land of Italian houses. In that respect, I feel it would benefit us to secure, at least for now, peaceful relations with the city state of Venice. Lieing directly between Bologne and the Duchy of Austria, Venice will be pivotal in the safety of the Kaiser himself. Once we can cement our standing with Venice, Florence becomes a viable option for conquest, more properly educating the neighboring would-be Italian powers to the level of German strength and authority. Therefore.

Edict 1.4 - - The House of Franconia instructs that a diplomat be trained and sent to secure both trade rights and an alliance with the city state of Venice.

The Kaiser's safety rests on this alliance. As Venice is powerful, and were they to bring up arms against him in Bologne, the rest of Italy would surely follow suit. They may be independant of each other, but an Italian is an Italian, they all claim the same lineage and they all jealously covet the same resources, antagonize one and you antagonize his neighbor.

Not far north of Italy lie the hereditary lands of the House of Austria and the House of Bavaria. Both comprised of noble and honest men, and both gifted with strong natural resources. But in natural strength comes outside jealousy, outside defiance.

Bavaria, in particular, lies in the heart of our Holy Roman Empire , but even so is taunted with the existance of the independant Czechs in Bohemia on their border. Eventually these people will have to be taught that independance is not something that should be used as a taunting gesture towards your betters. I suggest then, that the following be done.

Edict 1.5 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to scout out the lands of Bohemia, and to infiltrate their city with our spies. If possible, its siege should begin before the next meeting of this diet.

Yet further east comes the question of Austrian protection. While the Danube provides us a strong natural defence against invaders, Vien still lies significantly outside the reach of any swift reinforcements from the Imperial heartlands. It will, therefore, be important to establish some manner of keeping a closer watch on our Hungarian neighbors in the east, so that the river becomes our watchman, and not our own limitation. We must also be careful that we are not blind to the actions of Venice or the Byzantines in the south. In that respect, I propose the following.

Edict 1.6 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to establish watchtowers along the Danube near the border with Hungary, and near Austria's southern border.

However, we must not forget that the west is also an integral part of this Empire, and I hope my earlier comments of caution have not shut the ears of the House of Swabia to my proposals. I realise the importance of Metz to the Empire and to keeping those wretched French dogs at bay, but I fear only that your proposal is not flexible enough to allow the Chancellor the potential leeway he may need to ensure a proper defence of Metz after it is taken. Being so swift in taking it before the French could instead place us in a weakened position against a large and fresh French army. Though I do support the initial cause. So I make the following edict available for the diets discussion.

Edict 1.7 - The House of Franconia instructs the Chancellor to prepare a force capable of taking Metz by the end of his term.

After Metz has been secured, we can give more thought to solidifying our border with the Italians by capturing Bern.

At the last, I must reiterate that I am all in favor of the Kaiser's proposal of expansion for the safety and strength of the Empire. But we must not forget that expanding too quickly leaves us weakened at home, and we must be careful in our early calculations, so as not to stretch ourselves thin. There are many people all around us that may not be as peaceful or trustworthy as we desire. Until we can afford to swiftly field the vast armies required to put such treacherous dogs to the sword, we must be vigilant and cautious. The conquest of Hamburg, Prague, and Metz by the end of the Kaiser's term as Chancellor and the parallel strengthening of the rest of the Empire during this process will provide us with the building blocks we'll need to turn the Empire into the leading power of Europe, and the leader of all Christendom.

Ah, and, Kaiser Heinrich, if you will, next time you see your lovely daughter, Princess Agnes, extend her my greetings and good tidings. I hope her stay in Bavaria is treating her well. Her presence in the capital is sorely missed.

Dietrich sits, and amidst the diets debate talks quietly over things with the other electors of Franconia.

Swabian Elector- I propose that we should take an settlement for the good doing of our EMpire
Edict 1.8-We take Antwerp in 15 turns
OOC-Is that hwo ya do it?

I hereby second Edicts 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, 1.6, and 1.7.

I particularly urge everyone to support Edict 1.3. It is essential that the Empire gains access to the northern sea, particularly for the purposes of trade by sea.

The Second Elector of Franconia.

Kaiser Heinrich: Ah, noble electors, it is good to see you all present and contributing! It is the people like you that make empires, and even Republics of old, so strong and powerful! I am also glad to see good healthy discussion within and between houses. It is only as a united Empire shall we be feared and revered.

I shall now present my opinions on the edicts that have been proposed so far:

Edict 1.1: Yes, I suppose that for now we can strengthen Papal relations. My son, always the diplomatic one. I second this edict.

Edict 1.2: Swabia, it is indeed important that Metz be captured. However, do not place this Kaiser on such a schedule! Metz will be taken, but I would prefer a larger window in which to do it. I cannot second this edict unless it is amended.

Edict 1.3: I agree, Hamburg is of special importance. I second this edict.

Edict 1.4: Do not think, Dietrich, that this Kaiser has no fight in him! While I admire your concern for my safety, the Empire does not need to align with certain nations just to ensure it. No, I do not trust Venice. They would stab us in the back as soon as the oppurtunity was presented. I would prefer a simple exchange of trade rights and a watchful eye on the Venetians. If we must align with an Italian people, I would prefer it be Sicily, or Milan. I cannot second this edict.

Edict 1.5: I believe one of our spies is currently in position to infiltrate Prague. It should be an easy job for him, and we could use the territory. I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.6: The foreign power that Vienna needs to keep an eye on is Venice, not Poland. Nevertheless, it is always good to have an extra pair of eyes. I hereby second this edict, as well as promise to place watchtowers on the southern border of the province as well.

Edict 1.7: Ah, now this is a timeline that I can work with! Yes, hopefully Metz will have already been incorporated into the Empire by the time my term as Chancellor is up. Seconded.

Edict 1.8: A noble thought, Swabia, but Antwerp brings us too close to England and France, and that is not a war that we want to get involved in, at least not yet. I do not second this edict, but propose that we re-examine it once our current borders are closer to Antwerp.

...*cough* And yes, Dietrich, I shall pass along your message to Agnes.

Swabian Elector: In deference to our Kaiser's comments, I shall withdraw Edict 1.2. Instead, I shall support Edict 1.7 provided that Metz is captured by a Swabian army and is to be incorporated into Swabia.

As for my humble opinion on the afore tabled edicts:

Edict 1.1: It is indeed good that we should not be hostile to His Holiness, however, why should we put ourselves under Rome's yoke? I fear that our ensuring wars may arouse the ire of His Holiness, so I advise that the diplomat is not too liberal in his gifts of Florins to the Papal coffers. I second this edict.

Edict 1.2: I shall withdraw this edict.

Edict 1.3: Hamburg is an important stronghold, enabling us to protect ourselves from the Danes to the north. I second this edict.

Edict 1.4: While I acknowlege your good intentions, I cannot agree to an alliance with those despicable traitors, otherwise known as Venetians. They have, by their guile, robbed and betrayed many a king or emperor, and only a dummkopf would put any faith in them.

Edict 1.5: I agree, what use are spies if they do not spy? I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.6: I do agree to constructing watch-towers near our borders with the Hungarians. We must not allow those Magyars plunder us as they did last century. I hereby second this edict.

Edict 1.7: I have been swayed by the wisdom of Dietrich von Saxony. I hereby second this edict on the condition that Swabia leads the army and after its capture Metz is annexed to the lands of Swabia.

Edict 1.8: It is, as our gut Kaiser says, a noble enterprise, however, we have not the means of dealing with the pikemen of Flanders. And to repeat what our Kaiser has said, the Kingdoms of England and France would see this actions as an act of hostility towards them.

This elector wishes to present himself before the diet.
Nameless Elector: Salve Caesar! Too long have the House of Austria remained silent. I wish to bring the following vital necessities to the Diet's attention.

Edict 1.9: Trade in Austria is stagnant. We must build a road network at Vienna.

Edict 1.10: We must recruit spies to infiltrate Prague. The Bohemians should be brought to heel by Turn 9.

Edict 2.11: Our Duke, Leopold would like to ask for the hand of the Imperial Princess. (aside: Thanks for the money, Duke. I live to serve.)

Edict 2.12: Austria needs protection. This elector asks that the city of Vienna be protected by recruiting more than 4 companies of young men of military age.

Dutifully submits this official document to the speaker of the diet

Document says:

Edict 1.1: Seconded
Edict 1.2: Nay
Edict 1.3: Seconded
Edict 1.4: Seconded
Edict 1.5: Seconded
Edict 1.6: Seconded
Edict 1.7: Nay
Edict 1.8: Seconded

Vale Caesar!
respectfully steps aside.

I believe that the Roman Style for numbering edicts dictates that all edicts in the first session of the diet should start with the number 1, that is the last two edicts proposed should be numbered 1.11 and 1.12, with the number 2 being reserved for the second session.

I do believe that Edict 2.11 is improper. Is it not the Emperor's prerogative to decide whom his own daughter will marry? Is that not the prerogative of any father? How is it proper that this should be decided by the Diet, then? I find that this Edict, proposed by Austria, constitutes a great insult to the Emperor. And I have not yet even gotten to pointing out that Leopold is the son the Emperor... by blood. Just what is going on in Austria?

I, Maximillian Mandorf, Steward of Bavaria, agree with the Swabians that it is important that we establish a firm barrier to prevent French aggression against our territories. Yet we must not ignore the threats posed by other nations, most particularly the aggressive Papal lapdogs to our south. Milan, Venice, and Sicily may choose to fight amongst themselves, but it is certain that at least one, if not all of them, will turn on us in quick order.

We must maintain power in Northern Italy both for the purposes of trade and to allow us better control over the Papal throne. The Pope must learn that he cannot continue to ignore the right of the Kaiser to appoint the most worthy priests to the position! It is the proper order as prescribed by God and must be restored!

In order to ensure the influence of the Empire in Italy, we must first secure and strengthen the Alpine provinces to provide for defense against any trechery and a springboard for any attacks. You all know that Bern is the first and most vital step in such a plan.

Yet, I am not an ignorant or unreasonable man. We are all grasping at straws in all directions. Bern is an important province, but its control can perhaps be delayed for a short while until other actions have been fulfilled. I will support provisions giving Metz priority and ceding control of this territory to Swabia, but Bavaria must be compensated in return. I will vote for such provisions, but only if my Swabian colleagues will support the following edict:

Edict 1.13 - When Bern is conquered, it shall become the property of the House of Bavaria. This Edict will remain in effect until the Holy Roman Empire conquers Bern.

Unnamed Austrian elector:

I ask for your attention, Kaiser, Prinz, and fellow electors:

I hereby withdraw edict 1.11 (formerly 2.11) (aside: powerful forces are arrayed against you, my Duke. Be weary. I tried my best :oops: )

respectfully hand over the following official doc:
it reads

edict 1.13: seconded

I should point out that the laws clearly state that it is within the Emperor's power to give settlements to one of the Houses (section 5.3). I see no reason why he would need to follow Bavaria's Edict 1.13, or any suggestion from Swabia regarding Metz. Surely, requests to the Emperor can be made, but this seems far from the proper way to do it. Does no house besides Franconia respect the position of the Emperor?

I second edict 1.13.

it is an nescarry Area to control, it is sonewhat a radar for Denmark if they capture, and Denmark is intent on the descruction of this grea tEmpire.

if we control it then it is a good spot for future invasions of Denmark,Poland or Antwerp. But I also propse we extend the time limit of the edict

As but a lowly member of the noble House of Austria, I do not know much about what enemies we shall encounter, therefore I propose
Edict 1.14 - Train a diplomat and send him east, to create friendly policies with Poland and Hungary.

Trade at first with these Kingdoms, until we of Austria can claim their settlements, in the name of the Empire!

I would Second Edict 1.9 but I am under the impression the Governer instructs what shall be built, not the Diet.

Third Elector of Bavaria:

Greeting Lords and Electors of the Empire, I *second edict 1.13*. This is an excellent suggestion. The Alps form a formidable natural barrier to our potential enemies to the south, the treacherous Italian merchant states.

Second Elector of Swabia, I fear you are confused, Bern would allow us to monitor the actions and defend the Alpine passes against Milan and France, not the Danes. Perhaps you're thinking of Hamburg? Your support for the edict is still gratifying.

I admit the disposition of territories is of course the domain of the Kaiser, but the integration of Bern into the Bavarian duchy would allow for geographic continuity and easy defense due to Bern's proximity to our recruitment centers.

I fear war with either the Venetians or Milan will come shortly milords. They cast covetous eyes on our Italian province. Bologna is vulnerable due to it's lack of a connection to the rest of the Empire. To think, if we wished to move troops into or out of the province we would have to ask permission, permission!, of those oily, usurious merchants! Bah! If we are to seek an alliance with one them it should be Milan, they do not straddle our lines of communications like the Doge and his ilk do.

I support edict 1.1, it is already seconded and it is a good idea. I am a Christian and a German, we need to improve our relations with Rome, they are very low at this point. If we fall too far in the Pope's disfavor it will embolden our enemies to strike, for they will not fear his disapproval. I am not saying we should bend the knee in all matters, but we should respect the power he holds.

The 3rd Elector of Swabia has proposed that we build roads in Vienna. I would go a step farther and propose:

*edict 1.14*: Roads should be present in all current provinces of the Empire by the year 1100 (20 years/10 turns)

Our armies will be needed on many fronts and we are an inland Empire. We need roads to quickly dispatch an army from one area of the Empire to another. Trade will also benefit.

I support the expansion of the Empire in general. Seizing Hamburg, in addition to Bern, Metz, and Prague is a good idea. It might antagonize the Danes, or they might turn north. We shall see. In expanding, however, we should set our sights on strong frontiers that have choke points we can defend, the Alps in the south, Hamburg and the sea to the north, and the Rhine to the west. The east, well, there is the Danube, but that is not ideal.
I hope the Kaiser will keep this in mind.

OOC: Change mine to 1.15, I was in the middle of writing when Swordsmaster's post went up. And for some wonky reason I can't type in bold so I had to substitute asterisks, my apologies. It might be because I'm using the web browser at work.

My dear Bavarian friend, I think you are mistaken with your eagerness to ask Milan for an alliance. Milan and Venice are both alike, with qualities akin to each other. For if we take Florence, as we should, we will have two borders with Milan, and as they seem have more cities in northern italy than Venice, it would seem Venice is the weaker city state in Northern Italy.
In realisation of Milan's power to extend through the weak and divided France, I put foward another Edict to the Diet.

Edict 1.16 Recruit and send a spy to watch over Milan's progression.

This will allow us to judge when they are aggrivating their neighbours and give us time to strike.
(OOC: I really hate Milan)

Third Elector of Bavaria:

I realize a choice between Milan and Venice is like choosing between being drawn and quartered or the rack, but it is a choice, in the short term, we must make. Belive me, I wish the fires of Heaven would destroy them both.

If we *have* to ally with one, Milan, due to geography, is slightly less odious.

With an audible cough Conrad von Schüsselen rises from his seat in the Imperial Diet. His stern gaze encompasses the assembled nobles before he raises his voice to speak. He speaks not loudly and with a rough edge to his voice but still clear enough to be understood by anyone in the Diet.

Mein Kaiser, Dukes, fellow electors!

As you all know I recently followed our beloved Emperor into the pit of the lion that is Appenin peninsula nowadays. Those Langobard dogs think they can do as they like and have already gained acceptance by the wiry fool posing as god's representative in Rome. The Duchy of Milan the 'free' City of Venice and even the marauding Norman invaders of Sicily all cower behind their alleged faith to gain protection from the Pope who suddenly disapproves of Catholics fighting against each other now that he sees his powers in Italy dwindling and his chances to increase the size of God's kingdom on earth slimming.

I'm surprised no other elector has picked up on wise Emperor Heinrichs advice to expand in Italy also. It is of utmost importance that we do not tolerate the insolence by the Italian Duchies declaring their 'independence'. All of Italy will have to be brought back into the fold in due time, but for now I propose the following actions:

Edict 1.17: I firmly believe that the tentative powers the Duke of Milan has tried to establish over some Italian Cities can not be supported by the Reich. All diplomatic incursion with those money-loving dogs should be kept to a minimum. No requests for Trade rights, Maps or any other transactions shall meet our approval!

*cough* *cough* The elector raises a silk handkerchief to his mouth to stop a coughing fit that has overcome him as he has gotten more and more enraged during his speech against Milan. Small specks of blood can be seen as he wipes them from his mouth and puts the handkerchief back up his sleeve.
Once again composed and calm, he continues.

Edict 1.18: As a demonstration of our strength in Italy we should show them our power and seize the city of Florence. Its riches would make a fine addition to the Imperial coffers and show the Italians that the Empire will not sit by idly while the try to gain supremacy. Florence is as yet unalligned and will not be protected by the Pope, making it an ideal target.
As an afterthought, I'd like Florence to be assigned to the House of Austria, as such requests have become popular within the Diet, haven't they?

I will also second Edict 1.4. While I despise the Italians and their so-called 'freedom' as much as anyone here we can not afford a costly three-way war on the Apenin peninsular. An alliance with Venice would give us some security and buy us enough time to deal with the Milanese the Normans and finally Venice itself.

I see all other important edicts have already been seconded by a sufficient number.

Conrad von Schüsselen looks quite desinterested during his last sentence and finally sits back down.

Conrad, my good man, has the right idea men!

I second both Edicts he hath proposed.

Those vile Milanese should but taste the wrath of my blade, if my house were to expand southwards.

ah, you are right Third Elector of Bavaria, I was in fact thinking of Hamburg, my apologys

I also second the edicts you have put forward Second Elector Of Austria.
I have to agree that the Mialnese will somehow betray us, the Veneatians are more trustworthy, in some cases

The fourth Kurfurst of Bavaria waits for silence. He stands among the nobles staring above the heads of the council.


The House of Bavaria seconds the choice of supporting Venice over Milan, and therefore edict 1.4.

I also support the thought of conquering Florence to limit the expansion of other italian factions. But, oh Kaiser, does it not make more sense to grant the italian lands to the House of Bavaria in order to mantain cohesion and better administer them?

Edict 1.18 is supported.

Raising a hand quietly and standing, Dietrich interrupts a slow murmur of arguements and inquiries surrounding the territorial disputes between the southern duchies.

Please, if everybody may take a moment to review the Imperial charter as it stands.

And I quote, section 4.3.

Quote:

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The Emperor controls the initial allocation of settlements (e.g. upon conquest).

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Let us then backtrack to section 3.9.

Quote:

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The Imperial Diet is presided over by the Kaiser. His rulings are final.

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Dietrich looks about the room, casting a nod to his fellow Franconian electors before clearing his throat and beginning again. This time in a rather tenuous tone.

It is, from my interpretation, that these are powers given solely to the Kaiser's will, and therefore not something that can be decided by the vote of the diet. While it is in every Ducal House's interest to pass "suggestions" along to the Kaiser in regards to the distribution of the Empire's lands, we must not forget that the Empire is first and foremost subject to the Kaiser's decisions. We exist to serve, and should not be so swift to forget that ours is a freedom that can easily be taken away. To suggest through the passing of such edicts that the diet has the power to encroach on the Kaiser's ability to make the best choices for the Empire is to insinuate that some positions of power are not fully understood.

I am also concerned that some of you have taken the idea that the diet can pass an edict on the manner in which our honorable dukes order the arrangement of their masons' construction queies. This too is incorrect, as only the duke or count of a territory can determine, for the rest of the chancellor's reign in which said individual ruled, the order of construction for that territory.

Dietrich, trying his best to keep it a neutral remark for the whole of the diet to be more cautious and respectful in their proposals, pauses for a few seconds, turning over in his mind the proper way to put his next statement.


Many of you are young. Many of you still have some time before you're given the full chance to prove your wisdom or mettle for the good of the empire. And in that I believe that perhaps some of your errors are simple matters of youthful misunderstanding. But you will all get it soon. It's a learning experience, and I urge you all to take this oppertunity to learn well.

Dietrich looks then to some of the more senior members of the diet to deliberate on this latest issue. As some quiet discussion between House members continues with no immediate elector standing, he continues on some other matters.

In regards to Venice. I can understand some unwillingness to seek an alliance with them, let alone any Italian state. And by no means did I mean to suggest that the Kaiser is not capable of defending the lands in Italy he's so honorably taken. My only concern was that without Venice as an ally, we would be extremely hard pressed to reinforce you were the states of Italy to come down on you as a whole. You are the life blood of this Empire my lord. To lose you would be a devestating blow. Besides, with Venice being as untrustworthy as it is, we may as well take advantage of their faults early on. Let them break the alliance as the houses more knowledgeable of Italy than myself suggest they will. In that way we are given a significant enough cassus belli to wage war against them with relative impunity. Even the Pope would have a hard time explaining why we should stop aggressive action against them if they break such an alliance.

But that is as far as I will take the matter. Italy is, in fact, moreso the expertise of our southern Dukes. I simply offer my council in good faith.

In regards to the Danube, some seem to have confused the Poles with Magyars...I suggested keeping an eye on Hungary (the Magyars), who border Austria on the east Danube border and have in days not long past caused significant trouble and destruction to the countryside with their raids. The suggestion of monitoring there movements from the river is so as to assure that such things are not allowed to happen again.

But since Poland has been brought up in the discussion, I must opt towards defending these people from any aggression on our part, and insist that we establish peaceful relations with them. I've had the honor of meeting some of these people bound westward in merchant caravans, and must say that they are far from the despicable sort of men that many of our other neighbors seem to be comprised of. Sure the Poles go by somewhat of an awkward name, but in the long run their friendship would be far more beneficial to the Empire than turning them into another enemy. Trade with them could bring in valuable goods from the east and provide us with a friendly counterbalance to the potential growth of Hungary or some of the other far eastern peoples we have all heard tales of. I for one would value these people as a friend, not include them in our ever growing list of potential enemies.

In that respect, I propose Edict 1.19 - By the end of this chancellor's term, a diplomat will be dispatched to open up trade with Poland and exchange map information.

On a final note, I do believe it is also the Kaiser's, and only the Kaiser's, right to determine who his daughter shall take as a husband. I must also force myself to assume that some members of the House of Austria forget that Agnes is indeed Leopold's sister, and that such an, arrangement, would not be in the best interests of either party, let alone the esteem of the Kaiser's family.

And thank you Kaiser Heinrich for extending my message. Dietrich finally clears his throat and sits down.

The Third Elector of Bavaria, Gunther of Eichstadt (OOC:No avatar but he needed a name other than TEoB), speaks to the assembly:

There is wisdom in the Steward's words. I second edict 1.19. It is similar but more specific than edict 1.14. Though I hope our diplomat could visit Buda as well.

While I do not trust Milan I will not support 1.17. We have a claim on Milan, but we are not in the position, yet, to fulfill it. The Empire needs trade, florins for troops and buildings. We can still send an agent, edict 1.16, if needed.

I share the concern of Lord Dietrich about edict 1.18, with no land access to our Italian holdings we cannot send reinforcements without angering the Duke of Milan or the Doge. But as the Kaiser himself is on hand, it is, of course, his decision whether to take Florence or not.

Finally, as I do not wish to enter into a debate over the charter or betray my youth, I withdraw edict 1.15. It had not been seconded anyway.

Thank you milords.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucjan

It is, from my interpretation, that these are powers given solely to the Kaiser's will, and therefore not something that can be decided by the vote of the diet. While it is in every Ducal House's interest to pass "suggestions" along to the Kaiser in regards to the distribution of the Empire's lands, we must not forget that the Empire is first and foremost subject to the Kaiser's decisions. We exist to serve, and should not be so swift to forget that ours is a freedom that can easily be taken away. To suggest through the passing of such edicts that the diet has the power to encroach on the Kaiser's ability to make the best choices for the Empire is to insinuate that some positions of power are not fully understood.

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Dietrich, I must respectfully disagree with you on this matter. As we all surely know, the Kaiser does not have the power to exercise control over our private lands against our will. The very foundations of the Reich and the Electorate rest upon our own sovereignty within our own lands. If Hungarian troops encamp outside of Vienna and the Austrians rightfully repel them, taking a small area of only several hectares in the process, surely that land would belong to them. The Kaiser would have no more of a right to interfere in such a land matter as he would to give Vienna to the House of Swabia.

While it is wise to look to the Kaiser to resolve disputes, the matter of land distribution should bend to the will of the Houses if they can reach agreements on such matters. If no agreements can be met or if none are even proposed, then there is none better than the Kaiser to step in. However, this should not give him the power to allocate lands when the Diet is in agreement on the matter.

Furthermore, I would be concerned about such land powers being abused by future Kaisers who do not have the proven wisdom of Heinrich. By your interpretation of the laws, if the House of Swabia were to be attacked by the French and lose control of Staufen, the Kaiser could subsequently deliver it to Austria upon its recapture, even though this would be a blatant violation of Swabia's sovereignty over its own lands. While I know that the noble Heinrich would never do such a thing, we cannot trust that we will not some day find ourselves bending knee to a madman who would! We must protect our rights to our own lands now, lest our leniency be taken advantage of later.

Furthermore, I believe my interpretation is in-line with the law. If we reference the applicable legislation, we see the following:

Quote:

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3.9. The Imperial Diet is presided over by the character controlling the Emperor. His rulings are final.

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This legislation is unclear on exactly what the Kaiser may rule on. It is clear from other legislation that his powers in the Diet are limited, so surely his rulings do not apply to everything. As I said before, the Kaiser cannot simply cede Vienna to the House of Swabia, even if he 'rules' it so before the Diet.

So, let us look for clarification.

Quote:

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5.4 The Emperor adjudicates on rules disputes.

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Ah, here we see that the Kaiser's duties specifically require him to decide on disputes of procedure that are otherwise deadlocked. This appears to be his main duty in the Diet. As such, clause 3.9 must be interpreted to reference this matter, as clause 3.9 specifically deals with the Kaiser’s powers within the Diet. If the allocation of land is outside the realm of Diet deliberations, then it is also outside the power of a ‘final’ ruling by the Kaiser. If the allocation of land is within the realm of Diet deliberations, then the Diet is free to rule on it if agreement can be reached. In addition, the Kaiser’s powers in regards to land are stated as follows:

Quote:

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5.3 The Emperor can allocate settlements to one of the Four Houses.

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Please note the most crucial of words in the legislations. The Kaiser CAN allocate settlements. This does not mean he must nor that he always has the ability. This is a conditional statement that gives him some authority, but not absolute authority on the matter. When reading all three of these pieces of legislation together, I believe it is perfectly consistent to allow the Diet to determine for itself the disposition of land if agreements can be reached on the matter. Surely if the majority of the Diet wishes to give Metz to Swabia, there is no harm in doing so.

Conrad rises from his seat as soon as Mandorf has finished speaking raising his voice slightly to be heard, befor falling back into his usual raspy voice:

This has become a legal dispute then, gentlemen?

His gaze scans the other members of the Diet.

Up until know I had seen the requests for land from the other Houses as an advice to our Emperor and therefore insisted on it in my own proposal, lest the House of Austria miss out on an... opportunity here.
This sheds another light on the already seconded votes by us, one that should not be taken on light-heartedly. Maybe another edict is in order, deciding who has the right to bestow lands?

My personal oppinion is, that our noble Emperor does indeed have the wisdom and knowledge to bestow conquered lands to whomever he seems fit enough to rule them in his name. I know him as an honourable man who surely would pay due respect to... notions mentioned in the Diet regarding those choices however. Honour should suffice, without the hassle of legal discussion and the tearing apart of paragraphs. If we can not reach a decision based on honour within this very Diet it looks indeed grim for our Empire.

As for your fear of our heartlands, surely no one has the right to deny you or your house their hereditary lands should we be forced to reconquer them one day! Maybe even another edict to grant us our hereditary rights? I don't think so.

A small cough escapes Conrad von Schüsselens lips but he composes himself immediatelly

I would also like to second Edict 1.19.

He takes a big breath inhaling loudly, before continuing.

As to the greedy notions of our fellow Bavarian Electors, I think our Emperor is wise enough to see through their ruse. Does not the House of Bavaria already control the rich city of Nuremburg and a mighty castle at Innsbruck? Surely this should be enough to statisfy their current needs, but instead they have sunk to haggling for provinces with our Emperor... A brief fit of couging interrupts Conrad Was it not I... Was it... I... that served in Italy... Conrad von Schüsselen can no longer control his coughing a small trickle of blood collects at the corner of his mouth while the couging shakes his body. The other Electors of the House of Austria have to support him as he sinks back onto his bench.
It seems that he has finished.

Kaiser Heinrich: Well good electors, it seems that several rules disputes have come up. As Kaiser, it is my duty to rule on these and thus, effectively determine how much power I wield in this Diet.

I shall hereby keep the power to determine which House all newly-conquered settlements belong to. This decision is made not out of desire to wrench more power for myself, but for efficiency. The people of the world and of the Empire would see us weak if I had to drag you all back to Frankfurt every time one of us conquered! Good electors, nobody would get anything done!

That said:

Quote:

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I promise to allocate settlements based on geographic location, as well as previous ownership of the settlement if it is taken from our hands. In addition, I shall attempt to keep the distribution of these settlements fairly even so that at all times one House is not overly large or small. I hereby swear, in front of the Diet, that you may impeach me if I break this promise.

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Charter Amendment 1.1: Upon escalation to the position of Kaiser, the previous oath must be stated in front of the Diet.

The power to build in provinces fall under those of the Dukes, and not the Diet. I cannot second 1.9.

1.10 is not necessary as there is a spy currently near Prague. I plan to send him in the city and report back to me on a regular basis.

I will second 1.12 if the number of men is reduced. Currently, by your wording, you ask for five companies. I believe that with a significant watchtower system in place as well as roads, we can make due with less.

You know my position on 1.13.

As for 1.14, see my opinion on 1.9.

1.16 should not be too much of a burden. Seconded.

As for 1.17, I do not second it since we could use the money. Worry about Milan later, but for now let us build the treasury!

1.18 is unnecessary as I fully plan to conquer Florence. As a matter of fact is about the first item on my agenda.

I second 1.19.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Good electors, there has been much talk about the Italian city states and whether we should ally with them. I, as Kaiser, have this to say about Italy:

They are dogs. Treacherous dogs, all of them. I do not trust a single one of their people. They seek to expand and extend their pathetic influence over our people. This must not be allowed to happen. However, since all talks still persist, I offer the following compromise:

Edict 1.20: The Holy Roman Empire is to attempt to ally with Sicily.

My reasons for this are several. First of all, we share only a small border with Sicily, compared to fairly large ones with Venice and Milan. If the Sicilians were to execute a carefully-planned betrayal, they would only be a minor annoyance, compared to the threat of Venice and Milan. You remember the old adage from the times of the Roman Republic: Do not ally with your neighbors, but your neighbors' neighbors. I believe that this perfectly sums up our situation now.

I yield the floor.

As a Kurfurst I will support edict 1.20 A wise decision, my emperor. It is most appropriate to take inspiration in the peoples that whose deeds have allowed us to be Rome.

Quote:

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I promise to allocate settlements based on geographic location, as well as previous ownership of the settlement if it is taken from our hands. In addition, I shall attempt to keep the distribution of these settlements fairly even so that at all times one House is not overly large or small. I hereby swear, in front of the Diet, that you may impeach me if I break this promise.

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My noble lords, as a fleeting thought, let us presume this is a hypothetical, that the Kingdom of France and the City State of Milan have both declared war on us, and are pushing the House of Swabia backwards. If the noble and honourable House of Austria were to conquer some rebel lands to the east, therefore, having it gifted to them, via the location clause, but Swabia could be down to their last Castle, what would happen then? Would you call an emergency Diet to authorise the transference of settlements, so that the House of Swabia could continue to exist?

I seek only clarification noble friends.

Also put my name down as a Second for Edict 1.20
The unremarkable man sits back down, looking pleased with himself

Nameless elector from Austria submits the following:

Modification to Edict 1.12: Vienna should be protected as soon as possible (or feasible) by 1 to 2 units of missile troops (peasant archers or better).

Modification to Edict 1.9: Withdrew

Modification to Edict 1.10: The available spy in the Prague region should infiltrate the city and bring back to the Reich info on a daily basis.

Daily Voting:

Edict 1.13: Seconded
Edict 1.14: Suggest the following amendment: The diplomat should establish trade rights with Poland and Hungary, and friendly relations with only Poland. We might want to destroy Hungary later. Hence no alliance with the Huns.
Edict 1.15: Nay (only Dukes and count can suggest building queues?)
Edict 1.16: seconded
Edict 1.17: Nay
Edict 1.18: seconded
Edict 1.19: seconded
Edict 1.20: seconded

The last Swabian Kurfurst stands up. While silent until this moment, many have noticed that he has been busy writing continously on a scroll of paper since the beginning of the gathering

*clears throat*... ahem... if I may interrupt and address the diet...

His young face and the uncertainty in his voice are proof of his lack of seniority in the diet and of experience in the field of politics

*clears throat again*... Chancellor Heinrich, Prinz Henry, most honourable members of this Imperial diet. We have almost reached the end of the second day of deliberations here in Frankfurt, and I would like to put forward a couple of procedural matters, if I may, that will ease the upcoming voting procedures.

*unrolls his scroll and squints his eyes, barely making out his own handwriting* ... Edict 1.10 proposed by the Kurfurst of the House of Austria (DMu) advocates the same actions as Edict 1.5 proposed by Dietrich von Saxony, Steward of the House of Franconia (Lucjan). I also recon that in the same fashion, Edict 1.14 proposed by the Kurfurst of the House of Austria (pevergreen) advocates almost the same actions as Edict 1.19 proposed by Dietrich von Saxony, Steward of the House of Franconia (Lucjan).
*visibly embarassed* I cannot claim to be an expert on the procedures of this institution, but I would suggest for the interested parties to consider these observations, as to make the voting procedures easier for all of us, and not to create redundancies in the edicts that this Imperial council will enact. *rolls the scroll back up*

Since most edicts proposed by this diet have already received two or more seconders, I shall not take a stand on any particular matter at the moment, but I would like to invite the people gathered here today to think about the following:
*clears throat again* Currently this diet is suggesting for the conquering of Hamburg to the North, Prague to the East, Florence in the South, Metz to the West and possibly also the settlements of Antwerp and Bern. While these are clearly honourable undertakings, I would like to warn the diet, even with my little experience in these matters of state, that these undertakings will come at the cost of numerous lives, and may leave our armies at less than full strength. Moreover, this increase in territories will make us more liable to incursions from belligerant foreigners, and, less capable to defend ourselves. While it has been said that attack is the best defense, I would encourage this diet and the Emperor to think cautiously about such aggressive expansionary policies that may leave us short in florins and weak in military power.

Thank you for your attention, and sorry for the interruption

The Kurfurst sits down, and sighs of relief for having been able to gather the courage to speak on behalf of his people in front of many experienced members of the diet

I have learnt, fellow Electors, that Prinz Henry plans to compile the proposed Edicts and their seconders, sometime tonight. With this compiled list, hopefully the empires actions can be thoguht out more wisely.

I, Lothar Von Austria, thanks the Prinz for compiling such a document.

Swabian Elector: My fellow electors, I have noticed the enthusiasm in which many of you have put forward your proposals, however, the Diet's time is limited, so I propose the following:

Edict 1.21: Each elector is only allowed to put forward 3 edicts to the Diet. Dukes are allowed 5, while the Chancellor has no limit.

Also, my fellow electors, I propose the following:

Edict 1.22: The House of Swabia requests that Florence become a Free Imperial City, owing allegience to no Duke, but only to the Kaiser himself.

Gunther, Third Elector of Bavaria addresses the diet:

I will be brief so that no one will propose an edict to limit me to less than three comments a session.

The elector holds for a reaction, is taken aback by the silence of the Diet, and resumes.

Ah, um. . .Elector of Swabia. . .I believe what you propose, edict 1.21, is an amendment to our charter and would require a 2/3 majority to pass. I do not see the need for it, each edict will be judged on its merit through seconding and voting. A further, and somewhat confusing, restriction is not necessary. I will not second this edict.

As for edict 1.22, I will not address this. Others wiser than I have already commented on similar requests.

Thank you milords.

[Prinz Henry]: I have posted a list of edicts and their seconders (see first post of this thread).

Lothar coughs quietly, hushing the Diet

My dear friends, two responses here.

I have noticed in Prinz Henry's update, that Charter Amendment 1.1 has not been seconded, does it need to be? If so, I second it.

The second proposed Charter Amendment, is also named Charter Amendment, an understandable oversight, as im sure my Prinz would have worked many hours over the scribes records to summerise this Diet.

Quote:

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Edict 1.22: The House of Swabia requests that Florence become a Free Imperial City, owing allegience to no Duke, but only to the Kaiser himself.

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I would like an amendment to this Edict, so it may read as follows.

Edict 1.22: The House of Swabia requests that Florence become a Free Imperial City, until the next meeting of the Imperial Diet, where it shall, upon vote, or direction Kaiser, be gifted to a house. If the Diet can not reach an agreement or the Kaiser is unwilling to give it to any particular house, it shall remain under Imperial control, owing allegience to no Duke, but only to the Kaiser himself.

Fifth elector of Swabia stands up and greets his fellow noblemen:

"Becouse of the importance that Metz is to securing our Western border.I would like to propose
Edict 1.23 Suggestion for passive siege on Metz.

I firmly believe that instead of building up our forces in order to capture Metz.I suggest that we will surround it swiftly with our current forces in Staufen without attempting to assault it,but rather let it starve out.This way will deny the treacherous French the option to get it before the Empire. We can build additional forces ofcourse to support the siege,but in my opinion the siege should be started as soon as possible.

Fifth Elector of Swabia

Lothar stands as soon as the Elector starts to sit, to some he seems to be fuming with anger but to those that know him, he is laughing to himself.

Surely my good friend, you could not ask for a simple amendment? That makes 3 Edicts to my count of capturing Metz. Surely this township does not hold the Holy Grail

Lothar turns around quickly stifling the laughter of his fellow Austrians

Thank you, that is all.

Fifth elector stands up and replies. I have heard about the wierd sense of humour of Austrians before. Since Edict 1.2 was withdrawn and Edict 1.7 has different stand then ours. Though we dont think amending an edict that proposes different entirely method of action is plausible. Maybe the Austrians see it that way,but then they are also known for courting their own sisters.

Fifth elector of Swabia

You bas..The rest is stifled as the entire house of Austria has to be restrained

A few minutes later

Lothar Van Austria
You ignorant Swabians, your all the same. Proposing Edicts proposing to capture the same settlement is not doing the Empire any good!

Prinz Henry or Kaiser Heinrich, I demand this Swabian be repremanded for his comments, we must have some level of civility in this Diet.

The Third Elector of Bavaria attempts to step between the feuding parties:

Peace my lords! This is a chamber of government not a Tavern! If you don't like the edicts don't second or vote for them! Don't resort to base insults or we will accomplish nothing here.

The elector looks warily around hoping that calm will be restored.

How would you like it if a young upstart started insulting your sisters?
This is an outrage!

Fifth elector of Swabia replyes

We are not insulting Emperors daughter. Austrians tryed to make our proposition laughable and we only responded based on the edict 2.11. made by third elector of Austria. Which in my wiev is lot more insulting towards the daughter of Emperor, then our joke about the Austrians.Austrians shouldnt start making jokes about others,if they cant stand one themselves. We will not further comment the incident and place the feud for the Emperor to judge.

Fifth Elector of Swabia

Quote:

---

I promise to allocate settlements based on geographic location, as well as previous ownership of the settlement if it is taken from our hands. In addition, I shall attempt to keep the distribution of these settlements fairly even so that at all times one House is not overly large or small. I hereby swear, in front of the Diet, that you may impeach me if I break this promise.

Charter Amendment 1.1: Upon escalation to the position of Kaiser, the previous oath must be stated in front of the Diet.

---

Kaiser Heinrich, I laud the sentiment behind your oath, but I am highly sceptical of its practicality. In order for what you say to work, the Reich must expand in all directions at once and at a relatively even pace. Such a policy will demand starting wars where they are not needed or wanted and risk the security of the entire realm. Is it not the wisest practice to devote the majority of our efforts to defeating one or two enemies at a time, particularly when our resources are minimal, as they are now?

Say we find ourselves at war with no nation but France. Strategy would dictate that we concentrate great efforts in subduing the French and acquiring their lands. Yet, this would lead to expansion that is only geographically contiguous with the House of Swabia. Would you then insist that wars be started with the Danes, Hungarian, and Milanese in order to create even distributions? If not, would you end up giving Paris to the House of Austria?

Mein Kaiser, I thank you for the intentions behind your oath, but I urge you to revoke it. It is a flawed creation and can only cause strife for the Reich, the very thing you seek to avoid. I also firmly oppose Charter Amendment 1.1. It is bad enough that our current wise Kaiser has sworn this oath. It will be a travesty of historical proportions if all future Kaisers are forced to abide by it as well.

Conrad von Schüsselen has been sitting quiet for the last few minutes. Apparently recovering from his seizure earlier, but also delieberatly refraining from joining into the game started by the Fourth Elector of Austria.
With tensions running high, he stands up quickly and spreads his arms wide:

Gentlemen! Gentlemen!

Surely there is no need to let this folly erupt into a full out feud between our two esteemed Houses. Our charmed princess Agnes should not be bothered to be the point of friction between two of our Duchies.

Conrad looks at the Emperor and bows deeply

First, let me ask pardon for the rudeness done unto your daughter by the mistake of one of our Electors. He has quickly withdrawn his edict, because he noticed his error. I don't know what has transpired in Vienna to lead the Elector to this oppinion but his statements were never our intention. Rest assured that we will not tolerate such behaviour and punish him internally.

His gaze travels onward to Prinz Henry offering another bow, if not as deep as the one for the Emperor, still with the required reference:

And I would also like your pardon that our Elector has insulted the noble Edict of your house in regards to Metz. Surely this is a noble partaking and your Elector had every right to name his desires. I shall hereby second Edict 1.23.
No insult on our part was intended when our dear Elector questioned your proposal and we hold no ill-will against the Duchy of Swabia.

The Fourth Elector of Austria is met by Conrads stern gaze.

However, I do not understand why your Elector had to shame our dear princess by bringing up the... misunderstanding again and drawing her into this foolish notion which our Elector wrongfully proposed and which will, as I've already mentioned, have dire consequences.

Conrad takes a deep breath and looks around the Diet with an amiable smile on his face.

I hope this is settled then and our beloved Emperor does not have to be bothered to intervene in an non-existent dispute, caused by the hot-headedness of some of our younger members.

Again his gaze encompasses both the Fourth Elector of Austria and the Fifth Elector of Swabia before sinking back into his seat.


Edit: This should have gone before TinCows post. Have to type faster next time. ~;)

Dietrich watches quietly for a few moments, clearly amused with the most recent turn of events, but stands before the House of Austria can launch yet another tirade against the Swabians.

Good, people, of our noble houses. Perhaps the relevance of the subject is not entirely appropriate for diet discussion and should be kept to tavern talk and away from the floor of legal legislation. Let us refer instead to a more important subject matter.

Let us look at Kaiser Heinrich's proposition that lands be allocated geographically to maintain fairness and equal distribution of power between the houses.

Dietrich scratches his head, he's in a tight spot with this one, and takes his time to pick his wording carefully, that his position is properly understood.

I must support, and at the same time, detract, from seperate segments of this proposal. My support for the proposal lies in the Kaiser's inclination to make attempts at maintaining that no house acquires too much or too little power in regards to territory. This is an honorable pursuit, and for that I applaud him.

However, I do not think it is fair to allocate lands geographically. As we all know, this Empire is not going to make perfectly equal expansion in all directions. We all have our different opinions of allies, different opinions of enemies, except maybe the French and the Italians. I'm fairly certain we all despise them equally. But that's not the point. The point is that our expansion is not, and will not, be geographically equal in any sense of the word. Therefore the only way to maintain that territory is fairly distributed is to distribute according to merit. For example, an Austrian general may perform exceptionally well in the defence of Swabian lands, should the empire be invaded and all able generals needed to command the defence.

With that last statement, the steward casts a somewhat accusing glance at the bickering houses.

Therefore, when the defence is completed, a potential counterattack may ensue, and perhaps Swabia is then able to capture two regions from our enemy. In this situation, I would find the proper allocation of territory to be one region to Austria, one region to Swabia. Based on merit, and the good each House did for the whole of the empire. This is by no means geographically relevant to the House of Austria's current holdings, but it would be unfair to leave them unrewarded for their accomplishments.

This brings me to another relevant argument in regards to fairness. An argument I will not pursue, but feel compelled to bring up in light of this argument of territorial distribution.

Edicts are determined by votes, and the influence of each member of each house weighs into whether or not the edict is passed or failed. However, take into consideration that not all of our noble houses are comprised of the same number of electors. Franconia, for example, has only three, where Swabia has five, and Bavaria and Austria have four. This places Franconia at a significant disadvantage in all matters of state, when compared to the other noble houses of the empire.

Let me say for the record that this does not bother me, and I do not consider it a burden, nor do I want, expect, or wish for any kind of edict or notion to be mentioned to remedy this situation.

But , it is directly related to the question of territorial expansion. My counterpart in Bavaria has attempted to pick apart and amalgamize sections of our charter to try and counter my interpretation that only the kaiser may bestow lands, but I'm going to respond solely with common sense.

We will not expand equally in terms of geography. We do not hold equal influence in the diet. Therefore suggesting that edicts allowing specific distribution of regions to specific houses is in direct favor of whichever house has more electors than the others. For example, I do not wish to get involved in either side of Swabia and Austria's argument, and in the event that Bavaria does not either, then any edict that Swabia may suggest to give Swabia land that Austria also wants will automatically be passed in Swabia's favor by the weight of their electoral votes.

This is why it must be only the kaiser's decision as to which house's achievements merit the gifting of territory.

In this way I am very pleased to hear that the Kaiser's wisdom has opted him to try to fairly distribute the empire's territory, but I must also urge caution in regards to his promise of geographic distribution, as this is a promise that he may not by will, but by necessity, be forced to break.

In that respect I cannot support his edict that would also place later kaisers under the same restriction. I hope my stance in this matter does not offend or displease you Kaiser Heinrich. I am only putting forth my concerns as I think they stand well grounded in logic.

I would also, as he will someday in the distant future become as much an important figure in this Empire's history as Kaiser Heinrich is now, wish to hear what Prinz Henry has to say on the matter as well as his opinion on territorial distribution. After all, these subject will, however they are decided, directly affect him in the future.

Prinz Henry rises to his feet, nursing a bandaged hand and still mentally cursing the recent innovation of putting doors on carriages:

The House of Swabia unreservedly apologies to the House of Austria for any offence given by our most recent Elector... (scowls at the Fifth Elector of Swabia) ... who apparently has not yet adjusted to the solemn nature of the august body he has now joined. Fortunately, my sister does have a sense of humour, and may even find some merriment in recent exchanges - I trust the same is true of our dear brother Leopold. (Bows to the Austrian benches.)

On the matter of my father's charter ammendment (which does require seconding), I respect his determination to be equitable and to work towards coherent geographic boundaries. However, I do fear that edicts or ammendments over the Emperor's allocation of settlements start to blur the separation of powers that we have only just established with our charter.

Kaiser Heinrich: You are wise, noble Electors. I only sought to resolve the dispute that had popped up. I can only hope that future Kaisers will be as impartial as possible. I withdraw Amendment 1.1.

And as for the comments regarding my daughter and the House of Austria, I shall tolerate none of this talk in the Diet. As Agnes' father and her Kaiser it is my decision on who she marries. Certain electors' actions in the upcoming times will determine who she weds. *eyes Mandorf and von Saxony*

Now, if we may continue this Diet by conducting ourselves with the civility that your people expect of you, gentlemen.

The third elector of Franconia rises for the first time, and starts speaking. Slowly but deliberately...

Noble lords, of all houses !

The distribution of new land is not a matter to be taken lightly, as the noble leader of my house, and also of that Bavaria, have rightly concluded. The question here is to ask oneself if one should be encouraged to be passive, to let better men fight for them, or to actively seek to glorify the empire with the conquest of an enemy city. Surely, if the Kaiser so desires, we should argue for the latter !

I am no warmongerer, but I do understand the significance of a system based on personal merit, a system which is better than one of geographic distribution...

Nothing new here, but it had to be said nonetheless.

The Fourth Elector of Swabia rises again still seemingly shy and $embarassed to talk in front of this important assembly

Kaiser Heinrich, Prinz Henry, and most respected electors of all houses,

I... *stops, opens scroll, looks at notes*... I cannot claim to be an expert in the matters of state but... but I would like to stir the Diet's attention again on the fact that most of our current deliberations have dealt with territorial expansion...

He stops and swallows. The Kurfurst is visibly embarassed by the fact that he has to raise his point again, and it is clear that he does not feel confortable enough to raise strong points

... while I find that territorial expansion is a most honourable objective for our Empire, and one that should be discussed at length, as all of you most wisely did, I would like to remind you once again that a consistent military expansion is also required to support new settlements, in order to avoid leaving our Empire weaker at the core and on its borders.

I may be young, and perhaps even vain, my most venerand colleagues, but we all know that the expansion of a military force, for the reasons I have just oultined, requires a large investment of Florins. I certainly do not wish to see a day in which our noble Empire will be unable to pay his soldiers because of an empty treasury, nor do I wish to see our armies lowering themselves to the barbaric practices of sacking cities and murdering innocent lives simply to gain a financial profit.

For this reasons, I would like to urge this Diet to deliberate on some financial matters, specifically, the establishment of trade relations with the French and perhaps the English to the West, and the development of a trade network of merchants hired by our Holy Crown in order to improve our income.

He stops and breathes in. Clearly, his last statement was more than he expected himself capable of saying in front of such a congregation of wise men. After a short pause, he concludes...

For all these reasons, I would like, with the permission of this powerful Diet, to humbly propose
Edict 1.24: A network of merchants hired by the Holy Crown should be developed over time, and trading of valuable European resources should commence in order to provide economic growth for our country. Merchants should be encouraged to cautiously experiment in hostile commercial takeover behaviour

Realizing my inexperience in these matters, I submit this edict to you and strongly encourage you to provide me with any amendments that you should see fit. Thank you for your attention.

The elector returns to his seat with his colleagues from the House of Swabia. Once again, he sighes of relief for being able to express his points without stumbling on his words.

The fourth elector of Bavaria rises again.

While I understand the concern of the lord that spoke before me, I find that his edict is very vaguely formulated.

I wish to support it in the following form:

If I may, elector, define clearer objectives, I propose:

Edict 1.25

All steps must be taken for the Holy Empire to established trade rights with the nations of Byzantium, Poland, Russia, England, Spain, The papal States Portugal and Sicily within 10 years.


All these nations are "neighbours of our neighbours" or, in Poland's case our neighbours that we have no intention of fighting in the immediate future.


EDIT: Renamed to avoid confusion.

This time the Kurfurst of Swabia rises quickly and is more direct in addressing the comments of the previous elector

Noble sir, I am afraid that I have explained myself poorly on this matter. While I fully support the creation of trade treaties with all the countries that you have listed in your proposed amendment, this is not what I intended in my proposed Edict 1.24.
My proposal regarded the hiring of a number of merchants during the Chancellor's term which, under the control of our wise Emperor, would be able to trade resources in name of the Empire. A number of these merchants, especially if they were accustomed to the matters of trade, could significantly boost the Empire's resources and allow us to support the expansionary measures previously proposed.

Perhaps, may I suggest to you to more formally propose your edict under the label of Edict 1.25?

I welcome any further comments on the wording of my proposed measure, and I apologize for the confusion.

Sits down, embarassed by the confusion he has created

*Maximillian Mansdorf shakes his head slowly at the Fourth Elector of Swabia*

Our armies would have to lower themselves to the barbaric practices of sacking cities?! Sir, have you ever even spent a day in an army? Honor and glory may be wonderful things, to be sure, but they are never enough to feed 5,000 hungry men. We can expect chivalrous and selfless behavior from noble generals, but what of the common man-at-arms and the levies that make up the vast majority of our forces?

You must understand reality, sir, and reality is that men rarely take up arms when their lives are not threatened unless there is the possibility of substantial benefit for themselves and their families. Yes, we pay our soldiers, but it is a pittance in comparison to what they expect to reap from their fallen enemies. Certainly it is wrong to massacre good Christian civilians for no reason, but what harm is there in appropriating the wealth of an enemy city on its conquest? To consistently deny the sack of enemy cities is to court desertion and mutiny.

Calling the practice of sacking barbaric is a direct insult to many of the noble men who stand with us in this very room! That includes our glorious Kaiser Heinrich. I know you do not need a history lesson, but it has been less than 10 years since the Kaiser sacked the Saxon lands of the previous Duke of Bavaria for fomenting rebellion. Are you calling the Kaiser a barbarian for this act?

Fifth Elector of Swabia stands up and adresses the crowd of Electors,

" Mein Kaiser, Mighty Lords of Germany. From my part i would like to apologize my harsh joke. I have nothing but admiration towards my fellow electors and im sorry about my rude manners. I have spent my life mostly on battlefields and learned from there that its better to speak shortly and say what you mean rather then make long speeches,when there are lot better men for such.
I would like to thank the second elector of Austria for seconding my proposal about sieging Metz and would beg for you gentlemen for someone to second edict 1.23 again so it can be voted on.
After inspecting the forces in Staufen i have came to conclusion that even if we leave some archers as garrison in Staufen, if my Lord and Prince, Henry would lead our men in the siege, im positive that we could starve out Metz in few years and if the garrison would try to sally he could defeat them without large problems
About the sacking of enemy cities. I think that its the pay of the soldier to take their share if the enemy is foolish enough to close their gates before the troops of Kaiser."

Fifth Elector of Swabia

Stands, slightly blushing

I would like to apologize to the Diet for taking up so much of its time in historical discussions, but, if I may, I would like to address the claims made by Herr Mansdorf regarding my previous statement to this assembly.

*clears throat* Honoured sir, you are indeed correct in saying that I have not spent a single day in a proper army. These lands have seen much bloodshed and tumult in these years, and I, being of young age, have rarely left my hometown of Staufen. I have already expressed my desire and willingness to fight for the Holy Crown, and have put my own life at the service of my lord, Prinz Henry.

But while I may be inexperienced, I do not think that the systematic sacking of goods and murdering of civilians is the only thing that a person can expect after leading an army to victory. You say that we can only expect generals to be capable of pious and chivalrous acts. I say that people are led by example, and armies are inspired by their own leaders.

While our interests most certainly conflict with most of our neighbors, we must not forget that no matter what language is spoken on the streets of the cities we will march into for the glory of the Emperor, the people inhabiting them are going to be fellow Christians. If we are to improve our relations with the Holy Father in Rome, I think you will perhaps agree that murdering Catholics is not the wisest course of action. I am most willing to accept the practice of systematic sacking of the wealth of those who do not believe in the true God, but these vile people do not live within the reach of our empire for now, and they are not a concern.

And most importantly, I would like to apologize to all those who feel insulted by my comments in this room, including our Kaiser Henrich if he felt I intentionally offended him with my statement. But, while young of age, I am aware of the history of our glorious kingdom, and I would hardly compare the plundering of the Bavarian estates of Otto von Nordheim, former Duke of Bavaria, to the destruction of the wealth accumulated in a city by Christian hands. The former Bavarian Herzog, as you very well know, had plotted to murder our noble Emperor, and his estates had decided to aid him in his unholy plan, and our Kaiser's retaliation was more than justified.

I would like to conclude, if I may, that our Emperor has proven himself to be a great upholder of the Christian faith and a chivalrous leader, and I hope that everybody in this room may aspire to become a tenth of the man our Kaiser has shown himself to be.

Thank you

*Sits*

The Second Elector of Franconia takes the floor.

Although much has been discussed in this session of the Diet so far, I fear we lack direction. So far, little has been proposed other than expansion in many directions, and there has been much squabbling over settlement allocations and legal issues. It is true that we need to bring some of the surrounding independent states under Imperial influence before our rivals do, but we must begin to plan beyond that.

We are in a bit of a tricky position. We are surrounded by rivals on all sides. When we expand, we will come into contact with more of them, and our armies will be spread thin after conquest. I urge the Kaiser to leave no border with a major power undefended, lest they take the opportunity to grab some land. I would like to take a moment to discuss our potential rivals.

In the west we have France. Currently, Burgundy (Metz, Dijon) forms a buffer between us and France, but it is a very weak buffer. I believe that France could overrun them without great difficulty, unless they are engaged elsewhere. If we were to capture Metz instead, we would be abandoning the Rhine as a defensive frontier, and we would come into contact, and potentially conflict, with France. However, we would also move the border away from our capital at Frankfurt, and also Staufen, which would put those settlements in a safer position. This has to be considered very carefully. The best thing that could happen is that the French get into a conflict with the Normans, who have become a significant power after taking England. We should develop good relations, possibly even an alliance, with England, as a balance against France.

In Italy, the current peace seems very unstable. We have the potential to come into conflict with both Milan and Venice. It is imperative that we get into a conflict with only one of them, when the times comes. Venice may look to expand to the east, and may come into conflict with Hungary or even the Greeks. Conflict with Milan seems more likely, especially since it is supposed to be our land anyway. We should therefore look to establish good relations with Venice.

In the east we have Hungary and Poland. We already border Hungary. In fact, their capital is very close to Vienna. Vienna must remain well defended. I believe the Hungarians will take advantage of any perceived weakness. Poland is further away, and there are buffers between us, such as Bohemia and others. These should be brought under Imperial control, but that is not urgent. An important thing about Poland is that it is a potential enemy of Hungary, which is why we should develop good relations with them.

In the north, there is Denmark. If we capture Hamburg, we will have a perfectly positioned castle to keep them confined to the Jutland peninsula. For that reason, I do not see them as a great threat.

These are some things to consider. I will not propose any new edicts, as there are very many edicts already, and some of them already deal with the relevant issues. Edict 1.3 deals with the north, establishing a good defensive position against Denmark. Edict 1.4 establishes good relations with Venice, while Edict 1.17 forbids Milan as a friend. Edict 1.6 provides for surveillance against Hungary, while Edict 1.19 establishes good relations with Poland. Edict 1.25 mentions good relations with England and Poland, and other non-adversary countries. All of these Edicts are consistent with the arguments I made above.

Daily Vote from a portion of Austria:

Edict 1.22: 504 vs 777: Nein
Edict 1.23: 877 vs 0: Nein
Edict 1.24: 712 vs. 200: Ja: seconded.
Edict 1.25: 213 vs. 9: Ja: seconded.

Friends, I am unable to comprehend what the Swabian Elector means, I have been forced Lothar is smacked on the back of the head by Conrad uhh...decided to retire from this session of the Diet until voting commences.

Thank you.

I put forward an edict,
Edict (OOC-What one are we up to?) -We stregthen relations with the papal States through the options we have so far.

If we could improve our relationswe would be able to attack Catholic nations, not that I propose that.

Nameless elector from Austria stand up.

May I have your attention, fellow Furkurst and Caesar Meus et Augustus Meus.

Hands over a scroll (Edict 1.26)

it reads

In the event that an Imperial princess fails to secure a marriage and is disgraced, The Empire shall declare war on the ungrateful faction to whom the princess is eloped. This is not to recover the princess, but to teach the ungrateful faction a lesson. No faction shall kidnap our princess with impunity.

I await with anticipation your responses, my lords.

I do not like or dislike edict 1.26. I dislike it because we would be getting into wars a lot, money gone from the treasury!

I like it because it is a bad will if they decline us an treaty!

An entire war over a single woman? Need I remind you gentlemen that we are the true heirs of the Roman Empire. An Empire which was founded by those who fled Troy after its fall. Surely there is some lesson to be had in that.

I personally will not go to war soley for the sake of a woman, no matter how royal her blood may be! If there is a legitimate cause for the war, then it can stand on those grounds. If there is nothing but the woman's shame... well... let her come to my estate. I will comfort her! Mandorf laughs heartily.

The Third Elector of Bavaria speaks to the Diet:

I do not wish to add to the debate of which rebel lands we should conquer, but I do hope to clarify it. I will list all rebel lands we border, starting with Florence and moving clock-wise, whether they are Castles (C) or Towns (T), and which edicts, if any, call for their conquest.

Florence (T) 1.18
Bern (C) 1.13
Metz (C) 1.7,1.23
Antwerp (T) 1.8
Hamburg (C) 1.3
Magdeburg (C)
Breslau (T)
Prague (T) 1.5
Zagreb (T)

I hope this will aid the members of the Diet in their discussion and the Kaiser in his battle plans.

The Third Elector of Bavaria looks around, sees that no one else has spoken, and addresses the Diet again:

I apologize for speaking a second time my fellow Electors, but I wish to comment on some of the recent proposed edicts:

I second edict 1.25, not only will trade rights allow our coffers to grow, but they serve as a good base for further diplomatic discussions if needed. My fellow Elector from Bavaria is wise in proposing this.

Edict 1.24 has merit, but developing and financing merchants is expensive work. Not only does it take money to recruit merchants, but unless our towns have trade buildings we can only recruit so many, one or two currently. In the long run, merchants, if they are not driven out of business, pay off this investment of florins. However in the short term they do not. Perhaps, with money so tight in the next few years we should delay recruiting them.

Edict 1.26 is unwise. According to the charter the Diet, unless there is an enemy incursion into our territories, votes on when to declare war. If we encounter a situation as laid out in the edict, we can decide then if war is justified. I will not vote for edicts now that constrain our actions in the future.

Thank you my lords.

Fifth Elector of Swabia greets everyone and starts reading from a scroll: "I will support the following edicts,that still need seconding:"


Edict 1.10: The available spy in the Prague region should infiltrate the city and bring back to the Reich info on a daily basis.
Proposed: Third Elector of Austria (DMu)


"In my opinion Prague should be added to the Empire as soon as practical and good information is a part of succesfull planning for victory."

Edict 1.22: The House of Swabia requests that Florence become a Free Imperial City, owing allegience to no Duke, but only to the Kaiser himself.
Proposed: Third Elector of Swabia (Ignoramus)


"At current moment i agree that this would be the best option.The case can be re entered later."

"That is all.The rest of edicts already have two seconders,i cant support becouse i have suggested or i dont simply agree with at the moment".Fifth Elector of Swabia bows and sits down on his place.

Conrad von Schüsselen rises slowly once again and looks at the assembled members.

First I have to respond to the previous speaker about Edict 1.22. Have we not just recently ruled out the possibility of the Diet allocating settlements? Surely this includes gifting them to the Empire! All Edicts implying the ownership of a certain settlement should be amended, as I will hereby do to our own Edict 1.18. Edict 1.22 should not stand to vote as it is beyond our rights to force Emperor Heinrich to do this.

He casts a stern gaze towards the Fifth Elector of Swabia, before calming down and continuing to the Diet:

With our meeting calling to a close our dear friend of Franconia... His gaze travels to the Second Elector of Franconia ...has rightfully reminded us how important it is that we carefully consider the actions proposed within our Edicts, and which ones can be fulfilled, before casting our votes.
All in all I agree with the general push of the dear Elector and must applaude him on summarizing our situation so beautifully.

As many others here, I also have concerns about our plans for expansion. Should all edicts be passed we would surely overstretch ourselves. I would advise the Emperor to not take more than three settlements in the initial push. Metz, Hamburg and Florence seem to be the most argued for, closely followed by Prague, I think. Having acheived the former we should take time to evaluate our position before moving on to the fourth target in that list. From campaigning with our dear Emperor I know him to be a good tactician who surely needs little guidance from me on that matter, but I had to make my oppinions public. A careful yet resolute appraoch would be best suited for our expansions.

Next we should look at Edicts that contradict each other or should not be undertaken together. Two of those would be... He looks down to one of his scribes... Edict 1.4 and 1.20. If both of those should pass we would find ourselves allied to two powers in Italy. Surely we should not give our word for an alliance away so lightly. As you know I'd prefer a temporary alliance with Venice while a neutral stance towards Sicily is maintained. However I don't know the outcoming of our ruling and would propose that only the Edict supported by the most votes will lead to a full alliance.

At last I would like to take up again on Edict 1.17. To my disappointment our Emperor seems not to favour it.
He casts a short glance to Emperor Heinrich.
I have to ask all of you assembled here to consider the price of our honour and integrity, before deciding to barter it away to the highest bidder. Our financial situation is neither that desperate nor should we be that greedy to accept by peaceful trade money that should have been ours to begin with. A clear stance has to be found regarding the Italian City States. By accepting trade rights or other diplomatic actions we would indirectly show them that we approve of their actions. Indepence from the Empire should not be gained that lightly, so once again I urge you dear Electors to support me in Edict 1.17 and show those money-loving Milanese that our acceptance and goodwill can not be bought by their cheap gold!

His voice has risen again to the end of his speech and he has talked himself into a rage. He breathes deeply to compose himself...

That's all I have to say on these matters.

...and sits back down.

The elector speaks to the Diet:

Lords, having listened to Elector Conrad's statements, I feel I must reaffirm the importance of taking the rebel castle of Bern. I share the Elector's distrust of the Milanese, if not his intensity over it. What better way to guard against their treachery than to secure all the Alpine passes between us and them?

And when we decide to restore our claim to Milan, we could use Bern as part of a pincer movement against their territories. Genoa could be seized by an army from Florence, and their capital taken by an army marching from Bern.

I am not saying this day is close, but let us lay down the foundation for it. Let us take Bern to secure our southern border and provide a solid base for our future expansion. Please vote for edict 1.13.

Thank you my lords.

Conrad shakes his head at this proposal, obviously the Elector has only listened to half his statements.

Dietrich stands as the commotion starts to die down and turns a direct eye to the fourth elector of Swabia.

As seems to have been overlooked, despite a second plea, and, trust me young sir, at least one set of ears did hear your first, a question of how much our aimed expansion will strain our coffers and weaken our army has been raised.

I would like to take some time to adress this question as it is one that deserves an honest reply.

Firstly, in regards to the fear of straining our coffers. I must say that while it is an understandable concern, it is not one that, at this point in time, should be dwelled upon too heavily for the following reasons.

Our expansion into new cities and castles will undeniably bring in more florins to help alleviate the financial strain of maintaining our armies.

Our cities, under their individual charters and according to the size of their defences and imperial distribution of arms, are capable of providing us with a reasonable number of militia regiments *, free of any upkeep charges through the laws of compulsory defence service, to act as a policing force to maintain order within the city as well as to act as the cities last line of defence, should our armies fail to arrive on time or, God forbid, be lost in battle against a foe. These free militia regiments should prove excellent in their designated tasks. Those being to keep the peace, and not cost us any more money than we need to form the regiment. That is, of course, so long as they aren't removed from the city. Furthermore our ability to recruit higher class militias will grow in conjunction with the strength of the city itself.

As the Empire grows, so does trade, taxes, and farming revenue. All of these things bring coin into the coffers, which can be spent, pending the wisdom of our dukes and stewards, to further increase the profitability or military strength of the empire through the construction of domestic or military architectural projects. Each House here most certainly understands the importance of a balance of both, and the Kaiser himself has final say over whether or not construction is allowed, so ducal queies that may be undesirable either financially or militarily at the time can simply not be acted upon by the Kaiser.

I hope I have eased your concern in regards to our coffers. So, on to the other question.

Secondly, in regards to your concern that we may be overstretching our military, I don't believe we'll have any problems there either.

Kaiser Heinrich is an able military commander and an equally able administrator. I trust his judgement in the distribution of funds for training and retraining military regiments as is needed, and I can assure you that he will not be unknowledgable of the Empire's affairs in this regard.

I will be in contact with the Kaiser as often as is needed to ensure that our northern border with Denmark remains secure during my stay in Hamburg and has the necessary defences to remain that way when I leave. And as certain as I am that each and every one of our nobility in the field and on our borders will speak with the kaiser at different times to suggest and request anything that they may need done to uphold the stability of the Empire, I am certain the Kaiser will act in his best judgement to assure the same. I do not know him as the kind of man to disregard the suggestions and evaluations of his trusted generals more closely located to the situation than himself.

Dietrich, feeling he has sufficiently adressed the young electors concerns, sits, but keeps an eye on him to see if he has any other questions.

* ( OOC - A Regiment was the name for the standard field unit in the HRE at the time, and I believe when referring to game "units", we should use this term.)

[Prinz Henry: The list of proposed edicts and their seconders has been updated. Recall an edict needs TWO seconders before it can be voted on. The deadline for seconding (or proposing) motions is 3 hours hence (18.00 UK time).

I second edicts 1.8, 1.23 and Charter Ammendment 1.2.

Conrad goes over some paperwork with his secretaries as he suddenly seems to notive something and stands up. Coughing loudly and then clearing his throat he begins to speak.

It just realized that by Edict 1.13 Bern would be given to the House of Bavaria upon its conquest. While I perceive Bern to be a vital target in our expansion strategies I am against the consequences implied in this Edict. If it is not amended I will call Edict 1.27:
Bern is to be a prime target for Imperial Expansion. The Kaiser has to ensure that no other major power seizes this valuable asset before the Empire does so.

I'm especially referring to the threat of a Milanese expansion through the Alps here which can not be allowed. Bern has to be captured but I stilll strongly oppose any notion that this Diet can rule on the Allocation of settlements.

Conrad sends a curt nod towards the Bavarian Electors and sits back down, once again occupied with the documents brought to him by his secretaries.

The Third Elector licks his lips, glances around nervously and decides to speak:

My lords, in reviewing charter amendment 1.2 I noticed in no place does it mention how many edicts the Kaiser himself may propose.

The elector reads the amendment from a scroll:

Each elector is only allowed to put forward 3 edicts to the Diet. Dukes are allowed 5, while the Chancellor has no limit.

Without mentioning the Kaiser specifically it would limit him to 3 edicts as a mere elector if he were not a Chancellor or a Duke. I hope this was an oversight by the Third elector of Swabia, and that he was not attempting to muzzle future Kaisers.

As for edict 1.27, have you proposed it officially Elector Conrad? If so I will consider seconding it, however the hour is drawing late for new edicts. . .

The elector trails off and returns to his seat.

If 1.13 ist not ammended my Edict 1.27 stands!

Kaiser Heinrich:Gentlemen, the deadline for proposing/seconding edicts will expire in five minutes' time. We shall then proceed to vote on them. I urge any elector who has not yet seconded an edict that he agrees with to do so immediately.

If I am not too late, as requested, I will amend Edict 1.13 as follows so that it does not conflict with either 1.27 or the stated rules on provincial ownership.

Edict 1.13: The Diet wishes to advise the Kaiser that it is their desire that Bern be given to Bavaria upon conquest.

I second Edict 1.27

Conrad had been bustling with anticipation as the deadline as drawn near. He knew he brought the Edict forward too late, but he was still hoping. After Maximilian Mandorf has made his stand he bows courtouesly to the Bavarian delegation, a small smile of relief on his face.

Third Kurfurst of Austria speaks.

Salvete! Fellow Kurfurst, mein Kaiser, et mein Prinz:

I have managed to tally the votes coming from my portion of Austria

Edicts:

1.1: Aye
1.3: Aye
1.4: Aye
1.5: Aye
1.6: Aye
1.7: Aye
1.8: Aye
1.13: Aye
1.16: Aye
1.17: Aye
1.18: Aye
1.19: Aye
1.20: Aye
1.23: Nay
1.25: Aye

Charter amendment 1.2: NAY NAY NAY. *brandishes sword* it's a conspiracy to limit the power of the people! It must be stopped. It must be stopped I tell you! At all cau-- early symptom of stroke as third elector of Austria falls silent, his lower lips out of sync with his upper one.*