Vote on the final faction

Hi everyone. Im back again to inform you about how the voting for the final MA faction will work. The three factions will be introduced to you over a short period of time with a concise few paragraphs on each describing that faction's historical and gameplay credentials. Once the third and final faction has been posted, voting will begin both at the Org and TWC and will last for one week (we reserve the right to extend the vote a second week if we deem necessary). At the end of that week the polls will be closed, the votes tallied, and the majority winner announced as the final MA faction. Really very simple.

To help you get a better idea of what you ahve to vote on here's the current official faction list.
Papal States
Kingdom of Scotland
Kingdom of Ireland
Kingdom of England
Kingdom of France
Kingdom of Leon-Castile
Crown of Aragon
Holy Roman Empire
Kingdom of Bohemia
Republic of Venice
Republic of Genoa
Kingdom of Appulia-Calabria
Kingdom of Hungary
Kingdom of Poland
Kingdom of Denmark
Kingdom of Cilician Armenia
Byzantine Empire
Kingdom of Georgia
Principality of Kiev
Novgorod
Moorish Amirate
Sultanate of Rum
Abbasid Caliphate
Fatimid Empire
Volga-Bulgarians
Khwarezmid Empire
Kipchaks
Principality of Lithuania
Golden Horde

In effort to keep the faction descriptions from turning into long winded lectures (which they quite easily would) we're going to stick with the basic minimum information you would need to know to make an informed decision. We fully encourage you to more extensively research the topic if youre curious (fascinating stuff really) and actively engage in discussing the merits and drawbacks of each faction. Im sure youll find (as we did) that it wont be an easy decision. And now to get this started on the right foot we have our first faction.


The Emirate of Sevilla
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/solo.mt/sevilla_3.jpg

In around 1020 the Caliphate of Cordoba, once an incredibly powerful empire encompassing much of the muslim land in the west and sometimes referred to as the Byzantium of the West by modern scholars, arrived at the end of its decline and finally dissolved into dozens of minor political states commonly referred to as taifa states. Among these was of course Sevilla under the rule of the Abbadid dynasty. Over the next fifty years, Sevilla would rarely witness a day of peace as it ruthlessly expanded at the expense of the smaller taifa states around it. Even the ancient and powerful city of Cordoba became just another name in the long list of states that Sevilla had conquered.

By game start (1073) Sevilla had become without question the most powerful of the muslim states with its only true rival on the peninsula being Alphonso VI and his kingdom of Leon-Castile to the north. The city of Sevilla itself is perhaps the most powerful single city on the penninsula. Such aggressive expansion is due in large part to Sevilla's Emirs, the Abbadids. Over its half century of existence, Sevilla has seen three rulers from the Abbad line with each being more ruthless than the last (Abbad II is said to have kept the skulls of his enemies whom he had personally murdered as flowerpots). Through a frighteningly effective mixture of military backstabbing and diplomatic deceit and treachery the Abbadids have managed to gobble up every other state in their path. The current Emir, Muhammad al-Mu'tamid, has only been in power for three years but he is viewed as cruel, lying, and faithless in his political dealings though in person he is a rather amiable man and a generous patron of the arts (especially literature). His overly extravagant lifestyle, however, combined with his constant warring (most notably with Sevilla's old rival Granada) is actively emptying the nation's treasury forcing even heavier taxes on an already tax-burdened people.

Form a gameplay perspective, Sevilla fills a very interesting gap in the Iberian Penninsula, being the only muslim power. It effectively changes the entire dynamic of the region from a race by the christian factions to gobble up as many rebel provinces as fast as possible to one that actually requires careful diplomacy and strategic planning as it id did in history. While powerful militarily, Sevilla's treasury is barely staying afloat and drastic measures need to be taken quickly to avert a complete collapse. Its diplomatic situation is tricky as it lies directly in the path of both christian expansion from the north and Almoravid expansion from the south. The ruling family would be incredibly interesting to role play with their various extreme traits and quirks. Ultimately the faction would be a very enjoyable challenge to play. THe only real drawback to Sevilla's inclusion is the fact that historically Sevilla as an independant nation lasted only until 1091 when it was conquered by the Almoravids (though through Muhammad al-Mu'tamid's shady diplomacy and backstabbing, Sevilla did manage to dodge the Almoravid maw for many years before finally falling as one of the last remaining taifa states). Ultimately, who can say where Sevilla's aggressive expansionism and wily cast of royal characters would have taken it had the Almoravids been stopped and of all the taifa states Sevilla is in the best position to just that.




The Kingdom of Norway
https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/...orway028uh.jpg

Norway itself would not be terribly viable without a few of our faction choices. Firstly, they keep Denmark from swarming over the north, or northern Russian kingdoms from tearing through Scandinavia. Secondly, they would possess the Western Isles in Britain, and here they would be key for fighting with the Irish and Scottish. The viking age was over, but neither the Irish or Scots had forgotten centuries of raiding and attempted conquests over their territories, and the Norwegians hadn't totally abandonned these attempts, though they'd finished, more or less, with raiding, and had switched to attempts at conquest. Only a while after the start (1073), Magnus Barelegs (himself dressing normally as a Gael, hence his moniker) he conquered the Isle of Mann began his attempted conquest of Ireland, capturing Dublin but being slain in an ambush in Ulster a year later. The Scots and Norse had yet to play out their wars and dealings to a final conclusion on the matter of various coastal territories and the surrounding islands of Scotland. The early period for the three factions is really the tail end of the viking age in the Gaelic world, with raiding turned to conquest. No one in the isles had been quite so successful in repulsing or absorbing the Norwegians, which actually led to their continued wars with them; because they had intermarried heavily with them, they assumed Gaelic succession laws were similar to their own, and made claims at both the high kingship of Ireland and Scotland, and attempted to enforce them. This comes as well with claims of the kingship of England (the Normans were descended from Norwegians and Danes) and Denmark.

The Norwegians were prolific traders, trading in countless ports all through the north of Europe, but also in the Meditterranean. Norwegians fought in the crusades, both to the Holy Land and in the 'Northern Crusades'; Norwegians served in mostly German armies against the Sword Brethern and Lithuanian pagans, and a Norwegian crusading king was known as 'Jerusalemfarer'.

At the time, they were ruled by Olaf III of Norway, son of Harald Hardråde, who participated in his father's invasion of England in 1066 in a failed attempt to claim the English throne. He originally ruled the country jointly with his brother Magnus II, who died in 1069, leaving Olaf in sole rule of Norway. He married Svend Estriden, daughter of the king of Denmark to make peace with him (as both had a claim on the other's throne), but produced no children, and he was instead succeeded by his bastard son, the Gall Gaedhil Magnus III, also called Magnus Barefoot or Magnus Barelegs, because of his habit of dressing as a Gael (wearing a long shirt and a cloak with no leggings or pants, and walking about barefooted much of the time). Olaf and Magnus, the first two rulers one would have in game, are both fairly strong. Olaf was an intelligent man, the first Norwegian king to read and write, and a religious man, who greatly improved the relations of Norway with the Pope, founding dioceses, building churches, and giving gifts to the new churches. He was also an intelligent businessman, who instituted the first guilds in Norway. His son Magnus was an intelligent military leader, and ended the period of peace his father had made, by going to war in both Sweden and Denmark, then on into Britain, retaking the Western Isles and the Isle of Mann. However, Magnus would not be so much of a diplomat; he had no legitimate heirs and Norway collapsed in a civil war after his death, he only narrowly brought to end a few wars in his lifetime. However, for what it's worth, he is a skilled military leader, so the first king Norway gets would be good for building the economy, and the second for making war.

Early Norway would still be developing out of the earlier form of aristocratic warriors toward the emerging feudal system. Norway, like other kingdoms, was, at the time, actually a few smaller kingdoms subverted to a more powerful over-king. 'Viking' type troops would still exist; they'd be light or absent of cavalry initially in Norway. However, the Western Isles provides a second facet to their armies. The inhabitants of the Earldom of the Western Isles were Gall Gaedhil; essentially Gaelic, but with copious Norse influences. This province would provide them Gaelic warriors, including some light horse, and a specific Gall Gaedhil unit or two. Combined with traditional viking soldiers, they would start with a unique mixture of units, and an interesting spread of provinces, three in Scandinavia, one in the British Isles. Outside of the Gall Gaedhil of the Hebrides, they would have no early cavalry of their own; Norwegians that did ride horses only rode them to battle and dismounted to fight, much as Saxons and other older Germanic peoples often did. They have strong infantry, but a lack of cavalry will hamper them as the necessity for horsemen builds up. In a straight out infantry fight though, they have an advantage of strong, relatively well-equipped and high morale soldiers making up the core of their army.

As such, from a gameplay perspective, they'd be a lot of fun. They'd in part help justify the presence of the Scots and Irish, as they still had some interesting dynamics at work between them. They have also a unique option of where to expand. One could focus on conquering Scandinavia (an obvious early choice), and going from there into the surrounding area, or using their British Isles province to expand into the isles and form a strong base there with the relatively rich provinces available. Their early armies would be built small, around a few units of well-equipped, capable soldiers good for fighting other infantry, giving them a good edge in some arenas in the early game, but those would lose their potency as heavy cavalry begins its more dominant period, meaning the Norwegians will then need to adapt further.



Faction #3

edit: My bad! Sorreh.

Note that Shifty said the first faction that can be voted for is the Emirate of Sevilla.

You'll notice when voting is allowed =)

The start date was also mentioned, it is 1073. =)


The next two factions will come in the future.

No Serbia?! :thumbsdown: 1077 Serbia became Kingdom.

"Kingdom" of Appulia-Calabria? It was Duchy! :book:
Kingdom of Ireland! :beam:
Abbasid Caliphate :inquisitive:

The rest is ok and expected. :2thumbsup:

So the above list are all the factions already in, and the options for a vote on the final faction are to be announced?

Antagonist

Yes, Kingdom of Ireland is a "little" mistake.

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Originally Posted by mayhem87

Yes, Kingdom of Ireland is a "little" mistake.

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I don't think so, just wait till Conn arrives...:furious3: ~:mad :boxing: ~:pissed: :duel: :smash:

Please note that we have stated before our list of factions is not up for debate!

With that in mind- be aware that while we aim for a historical starting point, anything that happens afterwards is unhistorical.

and with THAT in mind, playing as a duchy of apulia or calabria that controls all of italy is more likely to then become a kingdom. (Much like the Kingdom of Cicilia, which is actually a Barony)

Yet, please continue to offer your suggestions in correcting possible mistakes.

To note- The Abbassid Caliphate was 'controlled' in turn, by the Sejluk Turks. It was still the major religious power of Islam, and it's power was only cemented as null later. Thus, it is still quite a viable option

This is a time of possibilities!

@ Antagonist- yes the above factions are in, and 1 faction can be voted in, out of three.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

No Serbia?! :thumbsdown: 1077 Serbia became Kingdom.

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Serbia may be the second or third faction we get to vote on.

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I don't think so, just wait till Conn arrives...

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Don't wake him ! Well, I'll try to summon him for the sake of the high king :P

He has some trouble with the forum but allowed me to quote something concerning Ireland.

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Ireland from a gameplay perspective provides a relatively unique selection of troops in the region it exists. Ireland had a fairly large population, access to good trade routes, and resources to exploit, but suffered from problems with loyalty of the nobility which I hope, we can imitate, and should provide a relatively unique experience to play as. It should not be easy to become very powerful as Ireland, but it should also hardly be an impossibility.

From a historical perspective, Ireland is complicated. Ireland was neither a disunified anarchic state, nor was it usually a whole united kingdom. It was, however, recognized as a kingdom by themselves, and there were periods of unity. It can be said that it was on the eve of their completion of soldifying the kingdom the invasion of Norman mercenaries began under Diarmait mac Murchada, who had fled from Ireland when even many of his own vassals would not support him against the new high king Ruadri Ua Conchobair. In the earliest part of the period, contested kingship was common, and issues of loyalty were the main concern, but there were contests over it for a reason; they recognized that the high king was a real position, not an honorary title, having recieved recognition from the church authority (the creation of the title 'Scotorum Imperator', Emperor of the Irish), and having that title carried real authority. Kings did pay homage to the High King, though, of course, there were those who refused or flat out rebelled and tried to usurp him.

Ireland had been steadily carved up between three emerging royal houses, who intermarried heavily, until it was effective that the only high kings tended to be drawn from those houses. Hopefully we can imitate early period issues with a realistic manner of their being low loyalty nobles should they belong to a house outside of the high king's, helping to represent Ireland as a single faction, but realistically simulating dynastic disputes. Ireland would be able to raise a decent number of soldiers, but, of course, if their commander abandons you, they won't do you much good. The problem of playing the Irish should be initially maintaining stability, and thus keeping your army intact to stave off potential invasions and strengthen your economy to precipitate invasions of foreign territories.

The Irish did engage in crusades and came to the aide of foreign allies (such was the case of Diarmait; he had loaned Henry II his fleet for his campaigns in Wales, and Henry owed him something in return, financing for him mercenaries to invade Ireland with, when Diarmait was forced to flee to England). The internal strife of Ireland was not so much more than that of early medieval Scotland (and less so at times), nor that of any country experiencing civil strife. Ireland was in a formative period, prepared to become a stable kingdom, cut short by the invasion. It should not be mistaken for an anarchic no-man's-land, nor idealized in a nationalist vision of what it could have been. The truth is in between. The kingdom did exist though, there were effective high kings, and they did play a role in the world in their time. Ireland was good for trade, a center of scholarship into the mid-1100s, and was steadily reforming their army into a more then-modern manner; for example, the office of taísech marcslúaige was created; the commander of the king's cavalry, reflecting the growing importance of mounted warfare, which was not lost on Ireland. Ireland earliest in the period is not backward, it's a relatively well off country, benefitted from centuries of scholarship in the Greek classics and other works that were tirelessly by the Irish. The Irish imported such books from Byzantium, and maintained relations with them, and Irish missionaries were prevelant in Europe for a long period.

The historical perspective, while clear that Ireland was probably at the time a minor player (though had once been far more major, due to their control of much of western Europe's only real schools outside of Italy, before such things proliferated more widely in a steadily Christianized Europe), it was not destined to be. Ireland was not stagnant, it was growing, it is an island 2/3rds the size of Britain, as a united kingdom, it would control a population at times larger than contemporary England at times, and have access to mines, trade routes, and manpower that could make them a genuine contender. Minor as it is though, it would not make it without firm gameplay reasons as well; many other minor factions have perfectly fine historical basis, but would bring little unique or be impossible to play properly. Ireland has unique soldiers, would be a challenge, but not impossible to play, and would offer a more unique experience in a region otherwise mostly populated by more standardized feudal armies (Scotland and a handful of others discluded; Scotland would, for quite a time, be fairly similar to Ireland, with problems of loyalty and selection of Gaelic soldiers for their armies, though augmented by others more readily).

On a final note, if it seems hard to consider Ireland conquering a huge swath of Europe, it was no more likely Scotland or an Italian city-state or other small-but-present factions would. That isn't a reason to disclude them necessarily.

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@ Antagonist- yes the above factions are in, and 1 faction can be voted in, out of three.

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I see, I look forward to it.

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Mini-essay thingy about Ireland

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Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows" :book:

Good luck :2thumbsup:

Antagonist

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Originally Posted by Antagonist

I see, I look forward to it.


Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows" :book:

Good luck :2thumbsup:

Antagonist

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That is indeed an intention of ours, to educate people on the lesser knowns of history as they too were important, Ireland is also a MAJOR part of English history and certainly an interesting faction as Conn explains.

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Originally Posted by Antagonist

Well spoken, and it's nice to see mods taking more unusual historical positions in order to educate, rather then just going along with "what everyone knows" :book:

Good luck :2thumbsup:

Antagonist

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I cant thank you enough for this comment Antagonist. Although it is rather ironic considering your name.

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Originally Posted by shifty157

I cant thank you enough for this comment Antagonist. Although it is rather ironic considering your name.

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Yes, I get that a lot. Sometimes I wonder whether I should acting like a complete psychopath on some other forum, to justify the handle. :inquisitive:

Good luck again, and I look forward to hearing about the other possible factions. :book:

Antagonist

Kingdom of Ireland – I commented this but impression is pretty negative. I mean Kingdom of Ireland with fictive high kings?!
Moorish Amirate – Why not Emirate of Morocco? Almoravids and Almohads where from Morocco.
Sultanate of Rum – Didn’t Süleyman I ibn Qutalmïsh establish Seljuk Sultanate of Rum in 1078 when he broke from Great Sultanate of Malik Shâh and de facto became independent in 1092 when Malik Shâh died?
Principality of Kiev – Title of ruler of Kiev was Grand Price.
Abbasid Caliphate – they were under Great Seljuk 1055-1156. Governor in Iraq in 1073 was Saad ad-Duwla Gauhar Ayin.

Kingdom of Cilician Armenia – Nice.
Khwarezmid Empire – emerging I assume.

No Serbia?! Some facts from XI century as majority identify Serbia with Nemanjic dynasty which is wrong:

1016 Ivan Vladislav, Bulgarian tsar, killed Prince of Zeta St. Jovan Vladimir in unknown coditions and soon Roman Emperor Basil II Bulgaroctonus and his army overrun Serbian lands as he already defeated former Bulgarian tsar Samuel and annexed Bulgaria. After Basil’s death in 1025 Serbs started to rebel. The first major rebellion happened in 1035 led by Prince Stefan Vojislav. Rebellion was put down and he was captured and sent to Constantinople, but he somehow escaped from prison. New rebellion happened in 1037 in Hum and was quickly spread to Adriatic coast and Zeta. 1038 Serbian rebels annihilated Imperial army under Duke Georg Provat with Roman vassals (župan of Raška/Serbia and ban of Bosnia) in hill-sides of Hum mountains. Seven Roman generals (starategos) were captured and only one third of Imperial army survived.

Major battle and decisive victory for Serbs happened in 1042. Prince Stefan Vojislav with his five sons waited new Imperial army led by Duke Michael (prefect of Dyrrachion) near Rumija mountain. Stefan Vojislav set up an ambush and Imperial army was encircled and annihilated in surprise night attack in their camp mostly by Serbian archers with support of slingers. Duke Michael escaped slaughter of his army but soon died in way to Dyrrachion.

Vojislav second son Mihailo will became first Serbian king recognized by Pope 1077 as King of Zeta (Dioclea) and Hum. Pope Gregory VII sent crown. His state was in Zeta (coast and parts of inland in modern Montenegro), Hum (modern Herzegovina) and modern Northern Albania. Capital was in Scodra. Romans couldn’t anything and after Mihailo’s wife died his new wife was a niece of Roman Emperor. In 1072 in Macedonia Bulgarian nobility rebelled and eldest son of Mihailo Konstantin Bodin was proclaimed as Tsar of Bulgaria under name Peter. Rebellion was put down due bad logistics of Serbian army under Konstantin Bodin and Bulgarian nobles (they splited in two directions after coronation). Konstantin Bodin was captured and imprisoned but his father paid to Venetian merchants who released him from prison bribing Roman guards.

1081 Normans under Robert Guiscard besieged Dyrrachion and in battle was Konstantin Bodin and his army as Roman ally. But he did nothing. He just watched battle and retreated (basically he betrayed Romans). After battle he made alliance with Normans and cemented it as his wife become Jaquinta, daughter of a Norman lord in Bari. King Konstantin Bodin aggressively expanded his dominion. He conquered Serbia, Dalmatia and Bosnia and technically vast majority of Serbs lived in one state. Bishopry of Bar became Archbishopry. Later he made peace with Romans but his vassal in Serbia Grand Župan Vukan started new agrresive politics against Roman Empire continuosly raiding them. After his death (c. 1101-2) state was divided by his sons who were in less or higher level in constant civil wars. This situation used Roman Empire to attack and conquer parts of Serbian lands. By this time, Serbia (Raška) became dominant as Zeta weakened in civil wars. Several grand župans were de facto vassals of Rhomania but they regularly rebelled and raided Roman lands, mostly with Hungarian help.

Now you want primary sources about it. Good. :book:

It is worth mentioning the Crusaders' journey under Raymond of Toulouse in the winter of 1096/1097. They travelled for almost 40 days through "Slavonia" (Sclavonia), from the western border to Scutari where they were met by King Bodin.
About that you can read in Raimundi de Aguilers canonici Podiensis Historia Francorum qui ceperunt Iherusalem, Recueil des historiens des croisades (Paris, 1866), p. 237.

About Mihailo, Bodin and Vukan you can read in Anna Comnena Alexiad. This is link to online text of Alexiad: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...a-Alexiad.html Just hit Ctrl+F and type words Michaelas (Mihailo), Bodinus (Bodin), Bolcanus (Vukan), Dalmatians (Serbs) and Dalmatia (Zeta).

And about Serbs in XI wrote also:
John Scylitzes (the 11th century) Ioannis Scylitzae synopsis historiarum (Berolini, 1973), p.353
John Cinnamus (the 12th century) Ioannis Cinnami epitome rerum ab Ioanne et Alexio Comnenis gestarum, rec. A. Meineke, (Bonnae, 1836), pp. 102-113, 203-204, 212-213, 288
Nicetas Choniaces (the 12th century) [i]Nicetae ChoniataeHistoria[i], rec.J.A.V. Dieten (Berolini, 1975), pp. 90, 92, 136.

All of them mention Serbia in their works many times.


But, YOUR mod, your decisions.

High kings of Ireland aren't fictive. As I already said somewhere, Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain was probably more powerfull than the king of France in 1073 (who couldnt even leave Paris without being endangered).
About the moorish Amirate and other faction name, just read our FAQ. (but what's your point about the Seljuks and Kiev, you mean you wouldnt include them ?)
If we cant include the abbasid caliphate then we cant include any vassal of the HRE, it's that simple. Thus you should complain about Bohemia and Genoa as much. That means any mod including Portugal, Bohemia or Burgundy isnt realistic to you ?

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Originally Posted by Renown

Please note that we have stated before our list of factions is not up for debate!

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Yea, we know it. But you should know what people think about factions. If you don’t want then it’s fine for me, but don’t expect that people come here if they can’t discuss. EB style hardly can pass in medieval time (maybe I am wrong – future will show) as there are many sources and generally medieval is drastically better known than ancient time like in EB and RTR time (~282-31).
Think about it.

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Originally Posted by Renown

With that in mind- be aware that while we aim for a historical starting point, anything that happens afterwards is unhistorical.

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And then:

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Originally Posted by Renown

and with THAT in mind, playing as a duchy of apulia or calabria that controls all of italy is more likely to then become a kingdom. (Much like the Kingdom of Cicilia, which is actually a Barony)

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But Lesser Armenia became Kingdom in 1198 and Apulia-Calabria never.

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Originally Posted by Renown

To note- The Abbassid Caliphate was 'controlled' in turn, by the Sejluk Turks. It was still the major religious power of Islam, and it's power was only cemented as null later. Thus, it is still quite a viable option

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The problem is there is no Great Seljuk who controlled them! Abbasid Caliphate was from 945 until 1055 under Shi'ite Buwayids and from 1055 to 1194 under Great Seljuk.
Btw, Fatimid Empire – Caliphate.

Balkan is septic hole (no offense).

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Originally Posted by Ignoramus

Serbia may be the second or third faction we get to vote on.

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Serbia doesn’t deserve it. And it is just maybe!

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Originally Posted by Solo

High kings of Ireland aren't fictive. As I already said somewhere, Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain was probably more powerfull than the king of France in 1073 (who couldnt even leave Paris without being endangered).

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Because King of France from Capet dynasty in that time were probably the weakest sovereigns in Europe it wasn’t so hard to compare them.

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Originally Posted by Solo

About the moorish Amirate and other faction name, just read our FAQ.

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I read it long time ago and I know it. Why create fictive name when there is name?

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Originally Posted by Solo

(but what's your point about the Seljuks and Kiev, you mean you wouldnt include them ?)

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The point is there is no Sultanate of Rum in 1073. Only Great Seljuk! Pricipality of Kiev to remane into Grand Principality of Kiev as was (I hope that I don’t need to explain why).

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Originally Posted by Solo

If we cant include the abbasid caliphate then we cant include any vassal of the HRE, it's that simple.

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You miss understud me. There is no Great Seljuk who was overlord of Abbasid Caliphate. Only Sultanate of Rum which didn’t exist in 1073.

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Originally Posted by Solo

Thus you should complain about Bohemia and Genoa as much.

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I didn’t talk about them. And when you mention them there is HRE as sovereign.

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Originally Posted by Solo

That means any mod including Portugal, Bohemia or Burgundy isnt realistic to you ?

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What mod in what timeframe?

This could be endless but since you come here to make a point when you didnt want people to make that in your own faction thread, I'll just quote you.

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Originally Posted by DukeofSerbia

I was clear - list is final!

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No Serbia:furious3: You mus be kidding.

Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1

What a coincidence

What if we're not?
phoenix[illusion] have you seen my stickied post? What does it say? The list is final. Now, if you bring research and evidence to debate it, that is better.

Nice faction list. Good luck with the Mod

.......Orda

Good going on including Ireland! :beam:

Sorry for the delay. First post has been updated with faction #2.

Looks good, Im lookin forward to next one :2thumbsup:
and keep up a good hard work on the mod :whip: ;-D

not norway again! i liked this mod so much because it chose factions that made sense! i hope its not in. you know when a faction is bad when the stated reason for it is to "balance gameplay" even in an area with multiple factions.

Arfisco, believe it or not, I'm pulling for Norway. The British Isles are not the heavily contested lands they should be.

I'm leaning towards Norway at the moment, however, Seville does look like an interesting faction to play as. Anyway, I will wait until the third faction has been revealed before voting.

Norway does look very good indeed, and I think a better choice than Sevilla. However, if the third option turns out to be Serbia, then I think I might have to go with that.

Ideally I'd ditch Ireland and Volga-Bulgaria, and then have Sevilla, Norway and Serbia, but that apparently isn't up for discussion, which is a shame, because Ireland in particular seems to be quite a waste of a faction slot (especially when compared to Serbia and Norway, both of which actually did something, and both of which had fairly cohesive government).

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Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea

Norway does look very good indeed, and I think a better choice than Sevilla. However, if the third option turns out to be Serbia, then I think I might have to go with that.

Ideally I'd ditch Ireland and Volga-Bulgaria, and then have Sevilla, Norway and Serbia, but that apparently isn't up for discussion, which is a shame, because Ireland in particular seems to be quite a waste of a faction slot (especially when compared to Serbia and Norway, both of which actually did something, and both of which had fairly cohesive government).

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In fairness Zenith, we expect some people to be iffy with some of the choices, however we are hopeful that when the time comes and a release is made, that we will create a modification that shows we were right to include them, afterall alot of our motives for adding particular factions are hidden in our private forums and we can understand confusion when seeing them added without the reasons behind it.

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Ideally I'd ditch Ireland and Volga-Bulgaria, and then have Sevilla, Norway and Serbia, but that apparently isn't up for discussion, which is a shame, because Ireland in particular seems to be quite a waste of a faction slot (especially when compared to Serbia and Norway, both of which actually did something, and both of which had fairly cohesive government).

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yes ditch volga-bulgaria and maybe ireland but norway, noooooooooooooooooooooo! im not a huge fan of serbia but its better then seville and especially norway! a pleasant surprise would be burgundy,portugal, or bulgaria(though it didnt exist).

We want to do something different. We're tired of the negelect of certain factions. Norway and Ireland help to make England not become a power house, and have incredibly unique units themselves.
EDIT: Zenith, while you may think that Ireland is a waste of a faction, they were persistently a thorn in the side of England, and a large amount of troops always had to be sent to put them down again. While the Normans initially conquered most of it, in a mere generation they "became" Irish and brought new techniques to Ireland. Now, Shoot Conn a PM if you want the univeristy-thesis-esque epic post on why they are included.

Here's fingers crossed for Anjou:sweatdrop:

I would vote for The Emirate of Sevilla over Norway due its postion on the map, Norway occupies a small corner of Map, and only really affects Denmark and less extent scotland

Sevilla occupies a very stragticly imporant postion and will have a large impact on the moors, spain and Aragon.

Wouldn't the best solution is have all three factions, whatever the thrid one is, and depending on which factions you play which factions is in the game, something similar to whats happening with rtr 7.0?

wtd there no bartix facshun!??!?! u shud ad them cos theys were supur empire one time!!!!

:furious3:

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I would vote for The Emirate of Sevilla over Norway due its postion on the map, Norway occupies a small corner of Map, and only really affects Denmark and less extent scotland

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i completely agree. seville would be fun because it would be whipped by the spainish in a second. they norwegians would be destroyed by the danes who have a modern army.

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Originally Posted by A living god

I would vote for The Emirate of Sevilla over Norway due its postion on the map, Norway occupies a small corner of Map, and only really affects Denmark and less extent scotland

Sevilla occupies a very stragticly imporant postion and will have a large impact on the moors, spain and Aragon.

Wouldn't the best solution is have all three factions, whatever the thrid one is, and depending on which factions you play which factions is in the game, something similar to whats happening with rtr 7.0?

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Agreed. Norway didn't really have the same impact on medieval history as Seville had. If there's any Northern faction to be added it's Sweden, although it didn't exist at all in in 1073:clown: Anyway, can't say that I disagree on Norway as an alternative and I won't go into the usual "Add faction X becasue I like them". Looking forward to Faction #3.

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Agreed. Norway didn't really have the same impact on medieval history as Seville had. If there's any Northern faction to be added it's Sweden, although it didn't exist at all in in 1073:clown: Anyway, can't say that I disagree on Norway as an alternative and I won't go into the usual "Add faction X becasue I like them". Looking forward to Faction #3.

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Well, Seville did nothing except they were annexed by Almoravids soon... :book:

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Originally Posted by Justiciar

wtd there no bartix facshun!??!?! u shud ad them cos theys were supur empire one time!!!!

:furious3:

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That made me laugh. Really. Great to see people bringing that back up.:laugh4:

Sevilla would stop Spain, Aragon and the Moors from conquering what therwise be rebel provineces in the south of spain too quickly. If MA is anything like EB it will take along time to defeat even a small faction like Sevilla.

I think factions should be included if they actually survived for a good part of the timeframe of the mod, if Seville only lasted 50 years as was described I don't think they deserve to be put in, it shows that they were quite weak really.

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Originally Posted by Beavis

I think factions should be included if they actually survived for a good part of the timeframe of the mod, if Seville only lasted 50 years as was described I don't think they deserve to be put in, it shows that they were quite weak really.

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A factions should be included if it was important at the start date.
How does lasting for only 50 years make it weak? Given that is was surronded enemies, the chirstian kingdom in the north, the moors in the south to have lasted 50 years it must have been farily strong

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Originally Posted by Beavis

it shows that they were quite weak really.

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Well its all really relative. Just because they were in a bad position directly in front of a budding expansionist empire doesnt mean that they were weak. I mean there isnt alot you can do when youre up against an empire thats many times your size. Its the food chain really. Even though Sevilla was a big fish, it had the misfortune of being directly in the way of one of the biggest fish. Theres no doubt that at game start the Almoravids are one of the strongest factions on the map (easily in the top 5, probably in the top 3) and it would still be a few decades before they hit their peak (Although the Almoravids for all their power only lasted about 1 century (nominally 4 generations of kings but really only 3)). In all frankness, Sevilla easily had more stability in its empire and rulers than the Almoravids ever had and had it not been for its unfortunate location at the crossroads of great expansionist empires it would have lasted a considerable length of time. In my opinion, had the Almoravids stayed in north africa, its easy to see an iberian penninsula divided between the four great powers of Castile, Aragon, Portugal, and Sevilla.

But really thats all just conjecture. The fact is Sevilla only lasted about 50 years. Its your decision to decide whether or not in this particular case the potential is more important than the fact of history. I mean if you look at France at this one instant in history than it really probably wouldnt deserve a faction slot but history says that it turned into a great and powerful nation so its in. On the other hand if you look at the Abbasids, a once incredibly powerful empire but at this instant in history possessing only a small fraction of its former power. History says the Abbasids would simply continue to decline into nonexistence but at this moment in history it still had enough of its former power that its very much within reason to believe it could undergo a major resurrgence and dominate the region once more under the right circumstances.

I personally tend to see history as more of a string of coincidences than the result of any sort of premeditated strategy on the parts of various people but thats just my opinion.

Im not trying to support Sevilla or discredit it. Im just trying to present how tricky gauging a faction's worth can be. Norway is in the exact same boat. History says that Norway never really amounted to anything. ALthough you can say that Norway's fate is more sealed than Sevilla's although even that is arguable. Sevilla clearly had the more fertile socio-economic foundation to really grow and expand into a great powerful empire similar to the Caliphate of Cordoba before it btu as i said before its position placed it in the path of forces larger than itself. Its like a tree sapling that has the potential to turn into a large and solid tree that could stand for centuries but a particularly harsh winter in the first year of its life puts a quick end to it. Norway on the other hand doesnt really have the population or resources at its ready disposal for expansion (unlike Sevilla) but we see that had one or two key battles fallen in Norway's favor (and we all know how large of a role freak chance plays in war) Norway could have established a sprawling empire encompassing Scandanavia and the Birtish Isles and possibly more. You could say that a flip of a coin relegated Norway to a minor and generally forgotten role in history.

At this stage of the game though, none of the factions we're presenting really have much any sound and undeniable historical basis for being included and really what we're looking at is which one exhibited the greatest potential as well as which one contributes more to interesting and dynamic gameplay. Although even when considering this its a very tough decision. I already discussed each candidate's theoretical potential had the die fallen more in their favor so lets take a look at gameplay.

Both factions fill an area of the map that is notoriously full of rebel provinces and therefore they add credibility to those areas and make them more than just quick grabs to dramaticly and unrealisticly increase the power of those factions lucky enough to be neighboring them. Or even worse the regions could turn into complete dead zones where no faction has any real reason incentive to even conquer (obviously this second fear applies more to Norway than Sevilla because as is shown historicaly the southern iberian will no doubt be a heated battleground). Considering this you may say that at least the area of sevilla will be conquered relatively quickly and the region become useful whereas if there was no faction in scandanavia the region could potentially remain neglected and dead the entire game. Having Norway would give vitality to an otherwise dead region while sevilla couldnt even claim to the same (at least not to such a great extent). On the other hand placing a faction like Norway in the middle of a dead region at the edge of the map could be considered a complete waste from a gameplay perspective because Norway would really only interact with a very few other factions, most notably denmark. Its single province in the British Isles almost isnt even worth recognition being so far removed from Norway's power base in scandanavia and being only a single province that once removed by any one of the powers in the area would effectively end and Norwegian presence in the area (as happened historicaly). Sevilla at least has several very unique and differing factions around it that it can interact with freely creating interesting dynamics that could change drasticly from one game to the next. It shared its religion with the Almoravids but it shared a closer culture and world view with the christians allowing it to go either way with its allegiances depending on the circumstances. You can see that this is what actually happened historicaly as Sevilla allied itself with one or the other depending on which power better served its interests at any given moment.

I mean thats just a quick overview of the give and take that makes this decision so difficult and i didnt even touch all the new dynamics and considerations that the third faction brings into the debate. This post grew longer than i had expected it to be but i hope it gives you a glimpse of how much thought and energy went into these faction decisions behind the scenes in our developer forums and we still couldnt even reach a decision on the final faction. If you think this is an easy decision then quite frankly you arent making a very good decision.

I can now understand how hard it is to pick the last faction.

I was quite impressed by Seville as one of the candidates, and felt sure that they would be a good choice. But then Norway came up and I felt the same. Honestly, I find it very difficult to choose.

However, I think I will vote for Norway for a couple of reasons:

1.) I would like northern Europe(Britain, France, Germany, Scandinavia) to be as detailed as possible. No offence to the Eastern European kingdoms, but I feel that having the same old roster of England, Scotland, France, Holy Roman Empire, and Denmark just doesn't do justice to the north of Europe. I would prefer if Aquintaine or Tolouse were represented, but I can well understand that they weren't that important militarily, and with only 31 faction slots they don't deserve a separate faction.

2.) Without Norway, it makes things too easy for the Holy Roman Empire. Having only Denmark in Scandinavia allows the Holy Roman Empire to quickly strike at Jutland and thus effectively defeat the Danes, whereas Norway would help stabilise Scandinvia and prevent any blitzkriegs.

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Without Norway, it makes things too easy for the Holy Roman Empire. Having only Denmark in Scandinavia allows the Holy Roman Empire to quickly strike at Jutland and thus effectively defeat the Danes, whereas Norway would help stabilise Scandinvia and prevent any blitzkriegs.

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what about burgundy? though it wasnt powerful at the beggining of the game unlike norway it would grow to become a power that would stop imperial expansion into france and vice versa. it would help to fill the emptiness of western europe.

I think the christian factions in the north and the moors in the south of seville were strong.

Since this is a thread where the non-modders can voice their opinion, here's mine.

If we are going to honour a state/nation/faction with a faction slot I think it should have some kind of obvious importance, if historically it has only lasted a few generations, then I think the slot should be given to a nation that has at least passed the test of time. And there are many who did and are not included or even considered for the vote.

Of course putting another iberian faction in will make gameplay more interesting..in the iberian peninsula, but the same can be said of putting in any other faction anywhere. This game is based on history and I'm sure most of the choices were influenced by how important a power was, to be included as a faction.

A 50-year existence isn't an accomplishment, better represent Seville as a very hard to conquer rebel province (with a barber's guild:beam: ).

The 'what if' argument could also apply to any other state as well that was destroyed by someone else.

This being said, this is not my mod so the decision is not mine, but this is the voting thread so I think I can put in my two cents.

I'm quite curious as to the identity of the last faction.

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Originally Posted by Beavis

I think the christian factions in the north and the moors in the south of seville were strong.

Since this is a thread where the non-modders can voice their opinion, here's mine.

If we are going to honour a state/nation/faction with a faction slot I think it should have some kind of obvious importance, if historically it has only lasted a few generations, then I think the slot should be given to a nation that has at least passed the test of time. And there are many who did and are not included or even considered for the vote.

Of course putting another iberian faction in will make gameplay more interesting..in the iberian peninsula, but the same can be said of putting in any other faction anywhere. This game is based on history and I'm sure most of the choices were influenced by how important a power was, to be included as a faction.

A 50-year existence isn't an accomplishment, better represent Seville as a very hard to conquer rebel province (with a barber's guild:beam: ).

The 'what if' argument could also apply to any other state as well that was destroyed by someone else.

This being said, this is not my mod so the decision is not mine, but this is the voting thread so I think I can put in my two cents.

I'm quite curious as to the identity of the last faction.

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MA was founded by myself on the premise that while we would create an experience that would teach people about history, it would also be good from a gamers perspective. Ireland was included, for example, to help recreate Willaim's struggles with the other British peoples and hold England up for a while, as France is rather weak at the time and I do believe were excommunicated at that point, so are in a very poor position that a unoccupied Englsih faction could easily exploit.

Factions are chosen not only on historical interest, but how they contribute to the gameplay experience, you could add all 31 of the most important, but it then be dull to play as its too easy in area's to dominate, and too hard in others.

Your opinions are all valid, as long as they are put in the same format as above, spam and abuse won't be listened to and won't survive very long. Factions are ALWAYS a big point of discussion at this stage, after all if your discussing it, it's only because you care enough to do so right?

Rest assured, even if some choices displease you, the team is imo talented enough to eliviate these fears once you get the final product.

Yes, to put it simply, MA is not here to reenact history as it happened. We are working on literally alternative history, I call it "what if"-history. Based on facts but allowing freedom to the player. True historical fiction.

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Originally Posted by shifty157

In my opinion, had the Almoravids stayed in north africa, its easy to see an iberian penninsula divided between the four great powers of Castile, Aragon, Portugal, and Sevilla.

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You theory fall in water because Ishbiliya was one of the three strongest Taifas. Anothers were Batalyaws and Sarakusta. All three were Andalusian Taifas plus Majorca which was Slavic. Those were major Taifas.

and what about Bulgaria??!?!

Hello
Bulgaria deserve to be there more than the half of the factions that will be included.I think you are inteligen and know the facts anyway here I will post some information that will convince you about bulgars/

The Bulgars arrived in the Balkans in the 7th century....

this says many.

also the first europian country that preserve its name you know is Bulgaria

More will tell you the maps from the period of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom

http://www.anamnesis.info/resources/1183_1241.gif

1183 - 1241

http://www.anamnesis.info/resources/1261.gif

1261

http://www.anamnesis.info/resources/1335.gif

1335

http://www.anamnesis.info/resources/1335_1451.gif

14th C just before Ottomans

From 1183 to 1396 a main power in the balcans

it is good that you decied to include Volga Bulgars
Thanks

I'm surprised that I attracted such a response from the devs.
Your product will definitely be more interesting than the vanilla game.

This is my only way to contribute to your mod's development and of course sway the voters.

I think the root of the game is historical importance, secondly gameplay.

For example from a gameplay perspective Denmark and say a faction like Pomerania (which was independant for much of the period ) would have a similar impact on gameplay to the neighbour factions, but Pomerania would never be considered over Denmark because of the latter's greater historical achievement, the same could be said of the Estonians instead of Novgorod, even Wales instead of England.

This said please hurry up with the last faction so we can vote.

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This said please hurry up with the last faction so we can vote.

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we all agree on that!

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Originally Posted by Bulgar

Hello
Bulgaria deserve to be there more than the half of the factions that will be included.I think you are inteligen and know the facts anyway here I will post some information that will convince you about bulgars/

The Bulgars arrived in the Balkans in the 7th century....

this says many.

also the first europian country that preserve its name you know is Bulgaria

More will tell you the maps from the period of the Second Bulgarian Kingdom
Thanks

-Images snipped for space

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Bulgar, as has been stated before, the factions have been decided upon and they will NOT be changing, it took three months to get to the point we are at now, so we are not going to change our descisions. There are loads of factions that "deserve" a spot, but we are not gifted with unlimited spots OR unlimited staff to supply this. Bulgaria may be important to you, but everybody has their favourites and that sometimes clouds judgement, there were factions I wanted to see BUT after fair arguments meant they didn't make it, just how it goes I am afraid.

yes yes
why dont include USA God Bless Bush,,,

answer me what has done Sevila to change world history somehow??
anyway your problem do what you want .

Sevilla carved out a niche for itself leaving large cultural impacts (flamenco, anyone?)

A a Norwegian, it's fun to see the good work you have done on the presentation, and also that many would like Norway as the 31. faction.

At the moment, however, I'm leaning towards Seville. This is due to their position on the Iberian peninsula, which, at least in MTW, tended to be a very powerfull area. It needs to be a difficult area to conquer, and the addition of Seville seems to accomplish that. Will the Norwegian presence in the Western Isles have the same effect in Brittania? I think not, certainly not to the same extent.

But I will wait for the third option to make my mind up. Perhaps my patriotism will win, after all.

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Will the Norwegian presence in the Western Isles have the same effect in Brittania? I think not, certainly not to the same extent.

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good point.

whens the next faction being released cause i thought i saw that it would be released by the end of the week.

The Norwegians did exert influence in the Isles, and made a few attempts at Ireland - as well as retaining a dynastic claim to the Kingship of England.

I'm torn between these two, I must say.

Just as a question of general interest.. wasn't Aragon in a personal union with Navarre at this time? And wasn't Catalonia independant under the Counts of Barcelona? Or was that later? :dizzy2:

Aragon was in union with Navarre and Catalaunia was independent under Berunger at this time.

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Originally Posted by Bulgar

yes yes
why dont include USA God Bless Bush,,,

answer me what has done Sevila to change world history somehow??
anyway your problem do what you want .

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Bulgar, I could flip that round and ask you, what have Bulgaria done to change world history in the medieval period?

Don't make sarcy comments Bulgar, they will not get you anywhere. The faction list will not be changing, we have explained this, posts of this nature wouldn't help your cause even if we were open to changing some.

As I explained, we all have our favourites, but the fact is just because we like the idea of a faction being there, doesn't mean it will make it.

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answer me what has done Sevila to change world history somehow??
anyway your problem do what you want .

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heres a list:

its the port from which spains gold wen tfrom the americas to spain

place where chocolate first reached europe

Abu Marwan Abd al-Malik Ibn Zuhr (known in the West as Avenzoar) - 1091-1161 C.E - "Master Physician" one of the fathers of modern medicine was born in seville

theres a lot more but i dont have time

So...where is the third faction update? Isn't there supposed to be a weekly blog update too?

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Originally Posted by Cataphract_Of_The_City

So...where is the third faction update? Isn't there supposed to be a weekly blog update too?

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dont bother asking they wont answer.

Personnel issues.

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Originally Posted by arfrisco

dont bother asking they wont answer.

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There is no need for that, watch what you say in future arfrisco, we are generally quite punctual in replying to the community, there is no need for comments like that.

No Croatia? It was still an independent kingdom at the time...

Updates are coming, no worries!

To be 100% accurate, we'd need closer to 100 faction slots (counting emergent factions, baronies, duchies, etc).
We only have 30 not counting independents.

@Pontifexx aka Bulgar aka Phoenix[illusion]

Stop creating accounts just to rant us (I have a hard time believing anyone would end up here for his first post, but three times it's close to winning lottery). You're working really hard to give bad publicity it seems but would you be happy if we close the vote ? Oh, well, perhaps it's just what you're trying to do afterall.

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Originally Posted by Solo

@Pontifexx aka Bulgar aka Phoenix[illusion]

Stop creating accounts just to rant us (I have a hard time believing anyone would end up here for his first post, but three times it's close to winning lottery). You're working really hard to give bad publicity it seems but would you be happy if we close the vote ? Oh, well, perhaps it's just what you're trying to do afterall.

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OK. I sloved it with Solo. Phoenix[illusion] is from my team.

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Originally Posted by Solo

@Pontifexx aka Bulgar aka Phoenix[illusion]

Stop creating accounts just to rant us (I have a hard time believing anyone would end up here for his first post, but three times it's close to winning lottery). You're working really hard to give bad publicity it seems but would you be happy if we close the vote ? Oh, well, perhaps it's just what you're trying to do afterall.

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I shall investigate this with Tosa, if he is indeed the same guy, I will ask for his IP to be banned, constant unwarranted abuse isn't acceptable, no need for rude posts when the same point can be made in a civil manner.

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There is no need for that, watch what you say in future arfrisco, we are generally quite punctual in replying to the community, there is no need for comments like that.

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sorry i guess i was a little upset cause i had asked a few times without any response. ill watch myself now

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Originally Posted by arfrisco

sorry i guess i was a little upset cause i had asked a few times without any response. ill watch myself now

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Its fine arfrisco, a few of our members are in the middle or coming to the end of a busy exam period, so there maye be a lull in our usual response. We will look to get the third faction out for you as soon as we can, just try to channel your frustration a little better next time, the vast majority of your posts are friendly. :2thumbsup:

I am little disappointed
medieval auctoriso-medieval autentic?~:argue:

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Originally Posted by aleksandar macedonian II

I am little disappointed
medieval auctoriso-medieval autentic?~:argue:

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Once again I have to whip out the warnings, watch your posts in future, slandering the mod team who do this in their spare time for free is not going to be a wise move.

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Originally Posted by NagatsukaShumi

Once again I have to whip out the warnings, watch your posts in future, slandering the mod team who do this in their spare time for free is not going to be a wise move.

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sorry boys no mean to dishonor your mod
I know that is very hard to satisfact everybody:
(To be 100% accurate, we'd need closer to 100 faction slots (counting emergent factions, baronies, duchies, etc)
but some factions are historical minor and their impact on history are small
I wish you best luck:oops:

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Originally Posted by aleksandar macedonian II

sorry boys no mean to dishonor your mod
I know that is very hard to satisfact everybody:
(To be 100% accurate, we'd need closer to 100 faction slots (counting emergent factions, baronies, duchies, etc)
but some factions are historical minor and their impact on history are small
I wish you best luck:oops:

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Don't worry about it, we have had a few rather rash statements in this thread already and it, admittedly, has urked me a little having to keep warning people.

aleksander, we understand what you mean...

but honestly we had only a few options.

Lets look at the Northern Italian area for example.

We could potentially have.... 10-30 factions in this single spot alone.

Let me list of a variety of different powers.

Florence, Pisa, Arezzo, Milan, Verona, Pistoia, Genoa, Lucca, Siena, Pavia, Parma , Padua, Venice, Bologna, Urbino, Perugia, Ancona, Mantua, Modena, throw in the Holy See, and some of the other unmentioned "papal state" territories, that were in reality not always under direct control. Then mix in french factions, norman/sicilian factions, along with the HRE, or Austrian types...

Now this is completely possible, I suppose, if we wanted to have an extremely small map, and focus on the "North Italian" theatre, so to speak.

But, this area was not a minute unconnected seperate continent that arose in a completely unaffected situation.

No, events in England impacted the situation, events in Northern, Eastern, Western and Southern Europe also were important to northern italy due to power politics, trade, and not even mentioning the multiple aspects of cultural change that may have occured or did occur due to interactions between these areas.

Now, throw in North Africa, Rus-Asian territories, the middle east, and futher.. all of which either directly, or indirectly affected North Italy.

So... no matter WHAT we would have chosen, something would be inaccurate, or not properly represented even looking at this area.

Now, we are dealing with a much larger map then just north italy, and what do you suppose would happen if we gave 5-6 factions in North Italy? Which is completely justifiable with historical reasons.

I'll tell you what, "not what we want". Whatever the results, we would have to obviously ignore some other regions that would then "piss" off someone else.

So, instead we have a situation where we try to include the most important factions according to historical starting points, and according to gameplay. 6 factions in North Italy, and 1 in the isles would lead to a certain game, that I would not enjoy playing, personally. Now we are getting flak for having 3 (and possible 4) factions in the Isles, and 3-6 factions involved in North italy (France/HRE/Italian factions/Holy See)... because there is not enough "here" or "there" or wherever someone wants a faction.

We made choices, we feel we can back them up with a myriad of reasons, and we wont change our existing faction slots.

SO no matter how many times someone demands "Burgundy Burgundy Burgundy" or Serbia Serbia, Serbia, it wont change.

All of our certified factions have legitimate historical reason to be in the mod. Just because "YOU" do not see them as major players does not mean you are right. In aspects where people may be right due to 'historical' reasons, we may have gameplay reasons for not including "your" faction.

But to go and say that we are not living up to our name, or blandly insulting us is not very nice or friendly... I mean we are doing this with our free time... perhaps everyone would prefer to not have us working on MA?