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Pretty obvious.
I'm asking because I never got them to fight in schiltrom effectivly before I implemented the Sheild Fix, but i'm not sure if it was me using my units wrong.
So I'm wondering, did anyone else get it working without the sheild fix?
Thanks.
Only ever used it in sieges, but yeah went a-ok the handful of times I used it. I don't use any mods or other alterations, just 1.0 and now 1.1
I've never had to use it.
I've got some tactics for it.
It's usual that I'll have a bunch of light spearmen, and are facing an army of mailed knights and enemy spearmen.
What I do is place a schiltron in front of my line, and place the other units behind. The Schiltron has a better defense against the cavalry, so when the mailed knights charge in, they get stuck against the schiltron. If they charge you, they take on the schiltron first, breaking apart that massive wave of horseflesh and manpower. You then throw your infantry in against the enemy spearmen and cavalry, who are hacking apart your infantry. You'll lose alot of one unit this way, so I suggest mercenary spearmen.
The schiltron does not work well unnsupported. As stated by the quoted poster above, use 'em to break and hold the charge, them kill 'em off with another unit. I don't use them for seiges because I would rather the unit face the breach with all of the spears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal Murat
One thing that happend to me was that sometimes whenever i put a unit in schiltrom during a siege battle right outside the gate, the unit would start to form up in a circle but then they would keep on running around in a circle and wont stop even with archers shooting at them a cavalry charging so they woud get slaughtered immedietely. On other situations though they would form up just fine
It wasn't getting them to form up in Schilstrom that was the problem i had TBH. It was that they wouldn't stab at anything much. even somthing directly in front of them got ignored half the time. In effect I found them much more effective in normal formation just because thay actually attacked things. Since the sheild fix they attack perfectly in Shilstrom and thats made the formation really usful.
put me down in the 'have never used it' camp.
using italian milita spears set in shiltroms near a breached castle gate With small gaps seems to work nicely. Especially against cav happy forces.
try this
=* *==
*===*
WGGGW
The opposing forces tend to get stuck in schiltrom gaps as they rush through the gates. The enemy gets funnelled into small corridors lined with spears.
The other think I have noted is that the shiltrom seems to handle cav charges better.
You could in theory improve it further perhaps by sticking a carrochio standard or cross behind the gate. Or other piece of siege equipment.
=**=
* + *
WGGW
Definitely. I think this is due to the schiltrom packing so many men into a narrow (width-wise) area, thus allowing only a few of the cav to get in and connect with the charge. The rest are edged out, and end up uselessly blowing by the schiltrom'd unit, only to stop and draw swords. They quickly surround the schiltrom unit (as the cav line is much longer and so wraps around), but the spears have a much more favorable matchup against melee-engaged cavalry than they do on the initial charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nepereta
True indeed. However if the cav is powerful enough it will simply blast through wiping out out the spearmen facibng sideways and then those from the side come in (still under charge effects), and wipe the rear ones out. Often you'll do better in a line 3 ranks deep in these situations. However if the cav is weak enough to not blast apart the outer edges of the unit it gets stopped and the qwrap rounds don't get full benefit from the formed charge and thuis cause less losses whilst the spearmen now massacre anything that comes near. Several closely packed spearmen units in Schiltrom are deadly though if arranged in a curved shape as it prevents wrap around whilst reducing surface area which limits the number of cav that can do a formed charge at once. I've had half a stack of good quality spearmen beat a full stack of Noble Knights, Chivalric Knights, Templars, Hosspitaleters, Lancers and Gens with less than 200 dead, (small size BTW). What doubly scary is that the spearmen only cost 8000F whilst the cav stack cost 18000F.
I often put the spear units at either end of my battle line into schiltrom, thereby denying my enemy the ability to flank from the sides.
I fought a bridge defense as England against an extremely strong Danish force (two big stacks of scarey infantry and knights). Stakes backed by swordsmen kept the enemy off my longbows. But I could not deploy stakes on the road leading to the bridge, so I stuck down 3 schiltrons of mercenary spears in the gap. They were able to handle the brunt of the AI attack - masses of knights and foot - pretty well. Probably half died, but that was a small price for defeating two scarey stacks. Maybe they would have done as well in regular formation, but I am not sure - swords normally tear up spears in normal formation.
I use schiltrons in castle defenses to plug walls, but they disappoint. Their morale typically fails - unlike the turkey shooting bridge defence, maybe the kill ratios are against them? (My defenders are always too few to really punish the AI.)
It definitely is for me, and not only against cav. Even against infantry the ability to fight without fear of being flanked is a huge bonus. It even helps morale. I like Nepereta's funneling approach, though I personally have used schiltroms more as breakwaters, in the manner described by Marshal Murat. They got killed a lot against heavy infantry, but they didn't run away easily, giving me time to bring in my cav from the rear. Anyway, I seldom use expensive spearmen for this, so I don't care if they die like flies, as long as they provide me with something to anchor my cav charge against and to fire my missiles from.
Random question. Should units in Shiltrom be able to move? I seem to think I saw somthing saying they shouldn't be able to, but I can't find it and my manual has done a dissapering act.
Any help please?
They can't run, but they can walk.
Thanks, I think thats what I see too, (never tried to run them TBH). I wanted to check zeroing the sheild value didn't bork that over.
It's been my standard operating proceedure to have a rank of spearmen backed by a rank of assualt infantry.
With that basic setup for infantry forces, I can abosrb enemy attack with my shiltron while counter attacking with the assault inf.
Of course, there's archers and horsey riders in the mix too but for my infantry, I tend to keep a 50/50 mix of spear and assault specifically for the shiltron's usefulness in breaking up enemy momentum when they out number me or are aggressive.
schiltrom is nice if only because it forces your spearmen to keep a very small profile. as one of the previous posters said, plop a few schiltrom'd spearmen in from of your army with fair sized gaps between them. goad the enemy into charging you and attack with heavy infantry after they make contact with your spearmen.
i use this tactic extensively in the early part of campaigns.
I used militia spearman in schiltrom in siege defences to block the gate or a broken down wall. It works great. One unit militia spearman in Schiltrom takes down almost one unit dismounted knights before it routs. Behind is the next militia spearman in schiltrom :).
The schiltrom has to be stationary for a while to have the bonus. Keep your general unit close to provide a moral boost.
Personally, I find the Schiltrom usefulf for holding on the flanks just behind the main battle line. Seems to stop my forces getting flanked too easily, or at least holds the flanking forces up enough for reinforcements to arrive.
I very rarely use it as a frontal defensive line, but it seems to work ok on the flanks or right behind the front line so that the charge is absorbed and then my schiltrom creates merry havoc with them.
Just my twopenneth.
Was playing France and had a small force of 4 militia, 4 archers and 2 knights standing on the bridge outside Metz when HRE attacked me with a full stack of a general, mostly militia, a couple of archers and some peasants.
My armies where far away holding off the Milanese in the Marseilles region so no reinforcements was to be obtained in several turns. In order to protect Rheims and most importantly Paris I decided to make a death defying stand.
I placed my 4 archers in loose formation on the left bank of the river. One militia at the entrance to the bridge and the other three a bit back out of enemy fire. My two knight units I hid in the woods to the right of the bridge.
The HRE army advanced, reached the bridge and certain of victory they all rushed onto the bridge, hell even their archers was in on it. Then it just hit me: I rushed my milita by the bridge some 5m onto the bridge, stopped and hit "shiltrom" formation. The German general died on impact with the shilted militia on the bridge.
Since none of the enemy archers fired on me I advanced my other three militia close to the bridge and positioned them like a V and hit schiltrom formation. My archers was peppering the bridge and my initial militia on the bridge was soon to loose so I brooke formation and retreated, unfortunately they now panicked and routed.
The entire HRE army now sensed victory and plunged into my remaining militia at the bridgehead. Now, they where really taking casualities. My archers was running out of missiles so I repositioned them some 50m up the hill straight above the bridge entrance. My militia was down to around 25-30 man each. I broke formation and runned to the left bank of the river.
The enemy was certain I was fleeing so they pursued me en mass along the river. When most of their troops had crossed and following my milita I stopped and shilted them and attacked with my 240 archers in their side while my hidden knights charged out of hiding and in full force hitting the enemys rear. Bam! Massrout, it was a slaughter.
France 1628 kills vs HRE 162 kills.
Interesting post. I never cared about using shiltrom formation, but I will reconsider it.:beam:
Stéphane
Hmm. My general's unit (English) is able to rout even armored spearmen units in schiltrom formation charging straight on. And, I have applied the shield fix... So, I guess, the formation is not working as intended.
Basically, in my experience, spearmen cause the biggest damage to cavalry if they manage to interrupt the charge. And... ironically, this is achieved by disrupting the spearmen formation itself: charging against charging cavalry. Loose formation works even better...
Seconded, on the part about unsupported. I've tried putting my units in schiltron right in front of the doors when I'm besieged. The unit in schiltronis going to suffer pretty bad, so you have to use it to pin (the anvil if you will) and the other units to kill (the hammer).Quote:
Originally Posted by Von Nanega
:balloon2:
Actually shiltorm is worse than a 3-5 rank deep spear formation. You tend to lose more units than then.
Cav charging schiltrom basically run through them and wipe them down to 1-3% of unit strength while on a basic formation, you usually have 20% spears left.
This is under small unit size though, so YMMV
I never use it. No real need for it in my experiences.
I had a GREAT schiltrom experience yesterday.
I had a tough battle against the Polish. There were two separate armies attacking me, each with a mix of three or four light infantry units (peasants, town militia, etc.) and several full units of their early crossbow cavalry, with one army being commanded by a general. I had three generals, four units of about half strength Druzhina, a unit of mercenary crossbows, and a unit of mercenary spearmen.
The missile cavalry was going to be a big problem, but luckily it was raining and in a forest, so I was hoping their accuracy would be reduced (I don't know if what effect rain has on crossbows though). I ran down the infantry quickly in the first army and decided to attempt to rout the infantry in the reinforcements. Thinking my own infantry was going to be a lost cause fighting missile cavalry by itself, and thinking they wouldn't be effective marching the whole way across the field to attack the reinforcements, I placed my spearmen in schiltrom, placed the crossbowmen nearby, and left them to fend for themselves while my cav fought the second army.
Quite some time later, I heard that the other enemy general was fleeing. I decided to check it out. This is what I saw:
https://i104.photobucket.com/albums/.../schiltrom.jpg
The spearmen withstood the missile attacks of four separate missile cav units and withstood every charge. Out of 75 troops, 13 were left.
Anyway, long story short, schiltrom is great for defending against light cavalry, but I don't think many units can withstand a heavy body guard charge, even with attack bonuses from spears.
On a complete side note, the battle was so close that it ended with the enemy bodyguard unit getting wiped out except for the general, and my two generals also fighting alone against each other. It was fun watching lone generals duke it out in the forest!
i tried using the Schiltrom like the guide told me to, form it when my spearmen is surrounded by enemy units, but they routed faster then they form the Schiltrom in that situation, so i just never bother with it now :furious3: :furious3:
As Carl pointed out, it makes a big difference whether you are using the shield fix or not.
Defended gate from mongols - 4 italian spear militia in shiltrom and behind - 1 halberd militia ( western ) - 3 whole mongol armies gone. no governor in city. LoL. Jerusalem forever !
i noticed that shiltrom was in the forest.
the only real guaranteed success i have found versus cavalry is to superimpose two spear schiltroms on top of each other. when this is done they can take down several uber cav units without heavy losses.
Playing as England (1.1 patch) no other mods.
I use spearmen in defensive mode in schiltrom formation but always doubled up, i.e. I put two units on top of each other - sometimes three. Makes for a very dense formation. (Even better behind longbow stakes of course!)
Usually holds the line when defending gaps in settlement / castle walls blown by AI artillery. (They can take fearsome losses though - often only a couple of ment left in some units.)
Wouldn't want to use them that way in open field of battle. Lack of manueverability counts against that. Also they take up less of the line in schiltrom formation and are very vulnerable to missile fire.
i use this formation before the battle if im getting attacked, instead of lines and ranks i use lines of circles and stagger them out with heavy inf. in between. thats the only way ican use it effectively
Note that the Schiltrom is likely to get better in 1.2, because the heavy cav mass will be reduced a lot.
I'm told heavy cavalry acts much more like in MTW1 with the patch aplied (i.e. it'll get stuck pretty soon in a formation and not simply charge through 3 units of spearmen :P)
Kind of off-topic, but do you think it might be a good idea to create a stickied topic that details the shield bug, and how to fix it, in order to raise awareness?Quote:
Originally Posted by FactionHeir
Well, it would've been. I'm really surprised that the citadel mod never stickied it. Now, though, it's a bit late, since the patch will be including the actual fix of the game code.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afro Thunder
With the shield fix applied, a single unit of Armored Sergeants in Schiltrom successfully stops the charge from Gothic Knights and subsequently slaughters them.
It should be in the bug fixes thread, though I'm not sure if that has the exact method to deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Afro Thunder
The thread was never stickied as it generated enough interest to stay at the top of the forum anyway (until Carl moved into his own modding forum, when this became a moot point) and in my experience few people read the stickes.
As to the schiltrom formation itself, it works very effectively to have them sitting near the gate of a sieged city. Wait (with around 3 units in formation) for the enemy to breach it and attack through, then throw your infantry at the enemies attacking the gate and use all your cavalry to force a way out through one of the wall breaches the AI is so kind in creating. Once you get around the back of the enemy troops attacking through the gate, it's all over.
im sorry but i dont have him on my payroll. i would remember a name like that but ill recheck my employee list to make sure.:laugh4:
Schiltrom works great as a defensive stance (duh), i use it frequently and it doesnt let me down :2thumbsup:
He he , i also noticed that spears in shiltrom never rout. May be they cannot move well or something, but for example even berber spearmen with defence 10 holding position until last men die.
I have seen them rout, but you're right - it's much rarer than those in normal formation