Shall the Egyptians ever develop Egypt ?

I may seem to be a weird question but I have noticed in my recent campaigns (always GA mode) that the AI-managed Egyptians (even though a citadel in Cairo is a GA) never seem to build anything in Egypt except a wooden fort :dizzy2: :dizzy2:

Checked a few old saved games and I have never seen a citadel in Egypt even when the Eggies sit quitly there for ages or conquer the entire steppes and balkans ...

Not that it is a big deal but it is rather strange to have a faction that is almots "scripted" no to build anything while it should just do that (the Elmo do all right with the same kind of GA in Granada) ...

Hmm...I recall encountering a citadel or at least a castle in Egypt countless times.

Have you ever noticed that not alot get's don in Constantinople in early either? What about Toulouse? Never developed much and the AI never seems to build a port there either.

There is a sort of bug. The bug is triggered by the valour bonus provinces. Egypt has a valour bonus for Mamluk cavalry so the AI develops the province for producing those, a Horse Breeder, and not alot else. If you observe other valour bonus provinces you will see much the same thing.

While I have seen the Eggies build Citadels and whatnot, it does seem as if they're generally worse at developing their lands when compared to most other factions. There are times when I wonder if the Egyptian AI was deliberately handicapped, so as to help balance the fact that it often becomes the superpower on the eastern half of the map. (That's probably not the case, but it would explain much, wouldn't it? ~;))

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Have you ever noticed that not alot get's don in Constantinople in early either? What about Toulouse? Never developed much and the AI never seems to build a port there either.

There is a sort of bug. The bug is triggered by the valour bonus provinces. Egypt has a valour bonus for Mamluk cavalry so the AI develops the province for producing those, a Horse Breeder, and not alot else. If you observe other valour bonus provinces you will see much the same thing.

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In my experience Toulouse tends to get built up quite decently by the AI since it takes a lot of preparation to churn out Chivalric knights. I agree that apart from that the AI seems rather listless when it comes to upgrade provinces further.

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Originally Posted by Innocentius

Hmm...I recall encountering a citadel or at least a castle in Egypt countless times

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Up to now I only saw that when I started in High or Late.

It seems somewhat strange, though, that the AI seems to do rather well building-wise in the MedMod where virtually every province has a valour bonus of some kind. But maybe that's just a deceived impression.

Oh and btw Caravel, congrats for being a senior!

The Pocket Mod has a valour bonus for pikemen in flanders. The prerequisite for pikemen has been changed to requiring the Spearmaker's Guild as well as the County Militia, their stats have been rebalanced making them much more effective. As a result the French did this:

https://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?...pikemendq8.jpg

As you can see they have met the prerequisites exactly but have done nothing else in the province. You have to remember that some units can be teched up to quite quickly and cheaply, others can not. It appears that the AI has splashed out here in this case on building pikemen, which won't be available until late, and is probably now having cashflow problems. What I haven't worked out yet is if the AI continues developing normally after it has teched up to the valour bonus unit. I have seen provinces such as Tolouse 'portless' for much of a campaign, while the AI is constantly trying to tech up to Chivalric Knights that take a lot of teching up.

I suppose to test this fully we would have to start an experimental campaign with a fort and spearmen garrison in every province, and nothing else. This would show exactly what the AI builds as opposed to what is there already.

While the valor bonus is the most likely culprit, keep in mind that Egypt also tends to be contended fairly often, first by the Almohads and Byzantines, and later by passing crusaders. Interruptions to major upgrades can slow infrastructure considerably.

Ajax

ajaxfetish does bring up a good point. Repeated invasions will slow the building of infrastructure. Another slow point would be lack of cash. The Egyptian provences are more well known for there trade income, instead of their agriculture. The game's AI does not utilize trade resources as well as it should, thus putting a stranglehold on its income.

Egypts stunted income could be another reason why its provences don't seem to develop.

Indeed. That is a factor I have always looked out for. In the case of Toulouse, it is often fought over by Germans, French, English and Spanish among others, which wrecks it's infrastructure. The Flanders example though does prove it, for me anyway. I do think, however, that the AI does continue developing the province as normal afterwards if it has the funds, the problem is that it is most likely that it doesn't. In the case of Egypt Mamluk, Cavalry only requires a Horse Breeder IIRC so once the AI have teched up to them it should just get on with building. In my experience it does. It is only seriously hampered in provinces like Tolouse and Constantinople (as well as flanders in the case of the modded game) where teching up to the valour bonus unit takes alot of time and money.

Has anyone noticed factions that can't build the valour bonus unit still visibly teching up to it? For example the turks teching up to Kataphraktoi in Constantinople? This would be hard to spot.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Has anyone noticed factions that can't build the valour bonus unit still visibly teching up to it? For example the turks teching up to Kataphraktoi in Constantinople? This would be hard to spot.

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That is a tough one to gauge. On several occassions with the XL mod I have seen lithuania and Denmark build up Prussia. The knights templar (is that the right order?) bonus is exclusive to the germans if I recall correctly.

I will be on the look out for this in the future. The Teutonic Knights and Teutonic Sergeants are possibly what you're referring to.

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Originally posted by Caravel
There is a sort of bug. The bug is triggered by the valour bonus provinces. Egypt has a valour bonus for Mamluk cavalry so the AI develops the province for producing those, a Horse Breeder, and not alot else. If you observe other valour bonus provinces you will see much the same thing.

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If this is the case, well then it can be used for solving the Ai's problems ala medmod. That is introducing homelands and giving to all provinces a valor bonus and tie as iniitial pre-requisites any important economically buildings (for that specific province) to the unit that receives the bonus. It might help further if the lower tier farms are some of them as they have high return/turn ratio. raising farm output also helps as XL has proven (even HRE survives longer). In this way the cash flow problems that hinder the AI most of the time, might be relieved as essentially he is really building his future that way.

I was also always a supporter of "moderately" complex requirements for advanced units that should be common. Raising the building times does hinder the AI's game a lot as provinces get looted as do complex teching requirements that essentially destroy his game as he tries to meet them.

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Originally Posted by Odin

That is a tough one to gauge. On several occassions with the XL mod I have seen lithuania and Denmark build up Prussia. The knights templar (is that the right order?) bonus is exclusive to the germans if I recall correctly.

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The Teutonic Knights are actually available to the Danes if they build a Crusade.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Has anyone noticed factions that can't build the valour bonus unit still visibly teching up to it? For example the turks teching up to Kataphraktoi in Constantinople? This would be hard to spot.

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Interesting question, Caravel. I confess I'd never even considered the possibility before. I'll try and keep an eye out myself and see.

Yesterday I was up against a unit of 42 valour 7 Varangian Guards guards in an Egpytian/Early/Hard campaign. They and their few comrades in arms had slain and captured my entire army of over 1000 men.

You LIE!!! :furious3: What have you done with your mod? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

Yesterday I was up against a unit of 42 valour 7 Varangian Guards guards in an Egpytian/Early/Hard campaign. They and their few comrades in arms had slain and captured my entire army of over 1000 men.

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Woah. ~:eek: What the heck did you have for troops? Just a bunch of peasants? :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Woah. ~:eek: What the heck did you have for troops? Just a bunch of peasants? :dizzy2:

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My army, a jihad, consisted of Ghulam Bodyguards, Nubian Spearmen, Saracens, Ghazis, Faris, Mamluk Horse Archers, Arab Infantry and Bedouin Camels, all shamefully defeated by these... these... BARBARIANS! :furious3:

The Sultan himself would have probably ordered their execution on the spot had they no been already dead and had he not been too busy routing off the field... :inquisitive:

No matter what I threw at them they could handle it, with their 6 star general against my 2 star sultan... :shame:

I had them pinned and hit them with a devastating flank attack, no good. Next I moved in the Ghazi on their flanks, charge! No good. In desperation the Mamluk Horse Archers and Faris were next, then they were entirely surrounded by all of my units. No good. Next my units routed, including the sultan. :inquisitive:

Absolutely nothing would quell them. In the end they won of course. They started off at valour 6 with 62 men and ended up at valour 7 with 42 men.

The next year I had to back up the Jihad with another large force from Cyrenacia with a 7 star General, and some veteran Ghazis in Trebizond that had won a superb victory there the year before.

Yeesh man; that's just appalling. :jawdrop:

Why didn't you use your Faris and MHA's to shower them with arrows, by the way? (I know they're not terribly effective against heavy infantry like VG, but they still could've whittled them down a bit.) Were you just not able to get them into a decent firing position?

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Originally Posted by Martok

Yeesh man; that's just appalling. :jawdrop:

Why didn't you use your Faris and MHA's to shower them with arrows, by the way? (I know they're not terribly effective against heavy infantry like VG, but they still could've whittled them down a bit.) Were you just not able to get them into a decent firing position?

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I'd already done that. I had been shooting at them none stop but their high valour and heavy armour meant they were surviving, and my horse archers needed to be working on some of their more vulnerable units. They were in a position, downhill of my force exposing their flank where I'd have been mad not to charge them. They were the first unit I attacked, indentifying them as the real threat. I knew than Arab Infantry would fall flat, so I had not used them initially. I had charged them with some 3 and 4 valour Ghulam Bodyguards (not royalty or good generals, just some (ex) governors and 1 and 2 star (ex) generals with decent virtues) first. Once I had them pinned and fighting, the Camels and Ghazis hit their flanks again.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

I'd already done that.

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Sorry man. That was a stupid question; I'm not even sure what possessed me to ask it. My bad. :embarassed:

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Originally Posted by Caravel

I had been shooting at them none stop but their high valour and heavy armour meant they were surviving, and my horse archers needed to be working on some of their more vulnerable units. They were in a position, downhill of my force exposing their flank where I'd have been mad not to charge them. They were the first unit I attacked, indentifying them as the real threat. I knew than Arab Infantry would fall flat, so I had not used them initially. I had charged them with some 3 and 4 valour Ghulam Bodyguards (not royalty or good generals, just some (ex) governors and 1 and 2 star (ex) generals with decent virtues) first. Once I had them pinned and fighting, the Camels and Ghazis hit their flanks again.

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And that *still* wasn't enough?? Good gravy! I know the Varangians are tough, of course (especially when commanded by a 6-star Jedi), but it's still incredible they were able to rout your army like that. :no:

I wonder what the VG's morale was like during the battle. You didn't happen to save the replay, did you?

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Originally Posted by Martok

And that *still* wasn't enough?? Good gravy! I know the Varangians are tough, of course (especially when commanded by a 6-star Jedi), but it's still incredible they were able to rout your army like that. :no:

I wonder what the VG's morale was like during the battle. You didn't happen to save the replay, did you?

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Unfortunately not. I have a replay of my Ghazis routing a HRE crusade though. That was the first replay I've saved in years, in fact I'm not sure if I've ever saved a replay before. :inquisitive:

The VGs morale must have been phenomenally high. You need to picture the outline of a ragged circle, around that circumference are the individual VG's, outside that circle dropping like flies was my army. Usually a surrounded unit becomes mingled with your own forces before being destroyed and trying to rout. In this case none of my units were inside the circle, they were all outside it. I can only think these units must have somehow had some serious "training" somewhere. When I had looked before, the Byz had two units of VG on a 60 man unit and the other 120 man unit which appeared earlier as part of a loyalist uprising in Nicaea. I think these two units had been involved in some skirmishes with the rebels and hungarians but can't say for sure. They must have won quite a lot and the survivors merged at some point.

Anyway you win some and you lose some. :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Jxrc

I may seem to be a weird question but I have noticed in my recent campaigns (always GA mode) that the AI-managed Egyptians (even though a citadel in Cairo is a GA) never seem to build anything in Egypt except a wooden fort :dizzy2: :dizzy2:

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I believe that for the less fortunate factions in the game there is a 'tipping point' beyond which they just hunker down and sit there waiting for some invader to crush them. I have observed this phenomenon in many 'loser' factions in Expert campaigns. Once a faction stops training and building (because the maintenance of their troops absorbs all of their limited income) it loses all strategic initiative and the AI apparently 'gives up' on it.

How about pinning them and repeatedly pulling back heavy cavalry and repeating the charge?

That's what I did. I had moved the Saracens in and had them pinned well. I hit them in the flank with Ghulam bodyguards and then everything else I could throw at them. These fellows shrugged off flank attacks like they were nothing much to worry about. Half the unit was facing about to clobber the Cavalry and the rest were eating through the Saracens like there was no tomorrow. I had a 60 something man unit of futtuwas as well, they were one of the first to rout after their flank attack bounced off horribly. I have a savegame exactly before that battle occured (not a prebattle save a normal one). The Jihad is there in Anatolia, and the enemy stack is there in Nicaea. It is around 300 men, my force is around about 1000. I'm sure that about 800 were killed with over 100 prisoners taken. There were only a handful of survivors remaining. The byzantine force is only made up of Trebizond archers, Kataphraktoi and the VG unit IIRC. I may try and fight it again and post some screenshots.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

I believe that for the less fortunate factions in the game there is a 'tipping point' beyond which they just hunker down and sit there waiting for some invader to crush them. I have observed this phenomenon in many 'loser' factions in Expert campaigns. Once a faction stops training and building (because the maintenance of their troops absorbs all of their limited income) it loses all strategic initiative and the AI apparently 'gives up' on it.

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I've observed this as well, and in other strategy games besides MTW. After a certain point, the AI-controlled factions tend to stop trying to expand (especially if they've had several invasions rebuffed). Instead, they just sit there and adopt the "please-don't-hurt-me" fetal position.

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Originally Posted by Martok

After a certain point, the AI-controlled factions tend to stop trying to expand (especially if they've had several invasions rebuffed).

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If I were playing such a faction (and it sure felt that way when I played Aragon for the first time) I would simply re-invest my money. I would destroy some buildings, disband some troops (or replace them by cheaper ones) and invest the surplus in trade. Once I had a fleet up and running, I would use my ships to look for (and invade) any territories that were up for grabs.

This usually works, though only temporarily. In this game, once you have been reduced to one province you never fully recover and you will most likely be crushed because of your tech backlog.

You can always set yourself the alternative goal of surviving until 1453, which is no small feat under the circumstances.

And it is a nice change from having to macromanage some bloated, ridiculously unhistoric empire. :laugh4:

Now that I understand your post ( :embarassed: ) I know what the problem was. You never directly engage these guys. I take it that you weren't able to separate them sufficiently from their army and that they were fairly rested. VGs are the first infantry unit I engage (after missiles and cav), and I never directly engage them in less it's to tire them out.

Story time!!!

Leading an Armenian army against them I tried to get my fat, bloated general a positive valor modifier (it was like -6 or something). To do this I charged him at the catapults the Byzies stranded. Well, he is the only one in his unit that dies, even before he reached the target. Basically I had to take a slightly experienced, recently general-less army against a fresh Byzantine one.

The key, as always, is mobility. I was able to bait the VGs and draw them away from their army, spread them out, and exhaust them. You don't touch those guys. You wear them down with missiles (I had mounted x-bows) and repeatedly charged them. Eventually they broke and ran but most of the battle was a feint while I focused on the 2 crazy Norsemen units. Just remember weapon/anti-weapon, don't let them touch anything other than the tip of your lances and missiles and you'll be fine. An army (one stack) without a general won against a larger force. Oh, yes, this was on expert.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Now that I understand your post ( :embarassed: ) I know what the problem was. You never directly engage these guys. I take it that you weren't able to separate them sufficiently from their army and that they were fairly rested. VGs are the first infantry unit I engage (after missiles and cav), and I never directly engage them in less it's to tire them out.

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Agreed. If all else is equal, I generally prefer to shoot VG to death with crossbow units, Longbows, and/or javelin units (whichever ones I can train). As the Spanish, I love using Jinnettes for this task. ~D

I think Caravel's problem, however is that I don't believe he was able to recruit any x-bows yet at the time of his battle against the Byz, and of course he doesn't have access to Longbows or javelin units (save for mercenaries, which I know he doesn't use). As someone who frequently plays as the Eggies, I sympathize with his plight. Going up against the Byz in the Early period isn't easy for them! :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Story time!!!

Leading an Armenian army against them I tried to get my fat, bloated general a positive valor modifier (it was like -6 or something). To do this I charged him at the catapults the Byzies stranded. Well, he is the only one in his unit that dies, even before he reached the target. Basically I had to take a slightly experienced, recently general-less army against a fresh Byzantine one.

The key, as always, is mobility. I was able to bait the VGs and draw them away from their army, spread them out, and exhaust them. You don't touch those guys. You wear them down with missiles (I had mounted x-bows) and repeatedly charged them. Eventually they broke and ran but most of the battle was a feint while I focused on the 2 crazy Norsemen units. Just remember weapon/anti-weapon, don't let them touch anything other than the tip of your lances and missiles and you'll be fine. An army (one stack) without a general won against a larger force. Oh, yes, this was on expert.

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Nice battle, Vladimir. ~:cheers:

I've been playing this game a long time and never seen valour 6 and 7 VGs fielded by the AI before. I have flanked and destroyed VGs up to valour 3 and 4 but these were the limit. The reason I had engaged them was because I had no crossbows in that battle, only a very small unit of nubian spearmen (javelin throwers in the this mod). I had been shooting at them continuously with fari and mamluk horse archers but had not made much of an impression on them. I had of course been drawing them away which is easy enough with VG. Next I had lured them down a hill and brough my Ghulams up to the crest of the hill to flank them. The horse archers were moved off to harass the Kataphraktoi - and the Saracens that were now as the foot of the hill were there to serve as bait, and to pin. I knew they wouldn't have long at all which is why I had the Ghulams moving in quickly, then down they came on their rear. Any other non spear or pole arm infantry unit would not have survived 3, 40 man/horse units of Early Ghulam Bodyguards hitting them in the flank and rear from a downhill charge...

That sounds like a good battle too. It reminds me of desperate defenses against Vikings in VI. Using your heirless king to repeatedly charge elite Viking units until he's almost exhausted and reduced to an army of one gets the blood flowing. I'm sure everyone has been there when playing VI.

I imagine that taking the Egyptians against heavy infantry is tough. Even if they do tech up Egypt they still have a lot of soft units. Their version of heavy axe-wielding troops are no match for VG in less they fight in the desert. I used to love taking the Turks against them before VI as they had loads of peasants that I used to valor-up my THAs.

That's exactly what it was like, on of those pointless VI battles where despite your numbers you know that none of your units can kill off a unit of super valoured Huscarles.

Back to topic: The situation with Egypt is a strange one. I have also noticed that Egypt is never well developed by the AI. Mamluk Cavalry need the Horse Breeder and the High Era, nothing more. So as soon as the Egyptians have built the Horse Breeder which only requires the fort, it should be job done, and they should get on with developing it for trade and farm income, as well as teching up it's civil and military infrastructure. It is not a rebellious province so revolts and sieges wrecking the infrastructure isn't the issue. In some cases it may be invasions that have caused this. Though the Almohads don't often invade Egypt From Cyrenacia. Playing as the Almohads myself I have maintained peace with the Egyptians and never noticed any invasions of Egypt, yet the province doesn't get developed. They do develop their other provinces though, and I think that's the key. It may be that they are wasting money developing the Sinai to produce the Mamluk Horse Archers which require a bowyers guild and horse breeders guild. The latter is not a problem but the former will require a castle. The AI will probably also be splashing out on the farming upgrades, traders and other buildings in Antioch, Tripoli, Palestine and Arabia (in which I've seen it build 80% farmland on occasions! :dizzy2:). Then it will be busy training what it can. From my experience I think that in the case of the Egyptians the AI bankrupts itself very quickly. It is a useless trader and those provinces are the trade hub. Without this vital income they are soon in the red.

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Originally Posted by Caravel

The AI will probably also be splashing out on the farming upgrades, traders and other buildings in Antioch, Tripoli, Palestine and Arabia (in which I've seen it build 80% farmland on occasions! :dizzy2:).

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80% farmland in Arabia?? That's ridiculous. Unless I'm playing your Pocket Mod, that province isn't worth a heap of camel dung. :wall:

A pity the AI wasn't programmed to not build farm upgrades where the province's base income was below a certain amount. I could understand an exception being made for the 20% upgrade - as it's a prequisite for the Horse Farmer - but after that, the AI should really stop building any further farm upgrades in provinces with an income of around 250 florins or less.

It makes sense in a way, and I've seen it alot. It's not good for anything else so the AI does it. I usually do it because I do anything I can to make a florin.

I understand where you're coming from, Vladimir, but it still doesn't really make sense to build farm upgrades in low-income provinces like Arabia, Norway, etc. To take Arabia as an example:

Arabia's base income: 44 florins/year
20% farm upgrade: 300 florins
Arabia's income after farm upgrade: 53 florins/year (rounded up from 52.8)

At those numbers, it would take about 34 years before the 20% farm upgrade paid for itself and finally started to make money. Granted, a good governor could cut down that time by 5-10 years; but either way, it would still be a while before your investment started to pay off. (Not to mention which, you'd probably never waste a decent governor on provinces like Arabia anyway.)

And that's just the first upgrade! Subsequent farm upgrades would take far longer to pay for themselves, and would simply not be worth the time and money invested into them. Provinces like Flanders, Jerusalem, etc., are a different story, of course; but in my experience, upgrades of 40% or higher should only be built in provinces where the income is at least 300 florins or better - 400 florins for the 60-80% upgrades.

This is especially true in the beginning of the game when I have limited funds. I can always throw money into farm upgrades for lesser provinces later on once my campaign really gets going (and my treasury isn't so meager), but even then I carefully consider where my cash is best spent.

The most you'll get out of Arabia with an 80% farmland is around 150 florins per year with a good governor of about 6 accumen or more. The expense involved just isn't worth it. There are better ways to make (more) money. One would hope that the AI wouldn't bother developing such a province and would instead concentrate on the fertile crescent. The AI could only realistically afford to do this if it were already stinking rich and had conquered half the map. Egypt, with the same 80% upgrade, no trader built, makes around 1300 florins with the same sort of governor.

All the above expert comments on developing Arabia are on the mark, apart for one thing. Arabia can be the ideal province for either Egyptians, Almohads or Turks to start a Jihad.

I love Arabia for this reason, and I never neglect its development if I play any of the above factions.

Provided you install a good (pious) Governor, develop the province and whip up its Zeal to over 50%, Arabia is a good starting point for Jihads in any direction, be it Castile, Khazar or Constantinople. As it builds up through the neighbouring privinces, the Jihad's troop yield is usually very good; apart from the inevitable crappy camels you can acquire (or add) mouthwatering units like Nizaris, Turcoman Horse and/or various Heavy Cav in your Jihad.
Inshallah! :sultan:

That's a good idea. Maybe Arabia should have a huge zeal boost because of M&M.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

All the above expert comments on developing Arabia are on the mark, apart for one thing. Arabia can be the ideal province for either Egyptians, Almohads or Turks to start a Jihad.

I love Arabia for this reason, and I never neglect its development if I play any of the above factions.

Provided you install a good (pious) Governor, develop the province and whip up its Zeal to over 50%, Arabia is a good starting point for Jihads in any direction, be it Castile, Khazar or Constantinople. As it builds up through the neighbouring privinces, the Jihad's troop yield is usually very good; apart from the inevitable crappy camels you can acquire (or add) mouthwatering units like Nizaris, Turcoman Horse and/or various Heavy Cav in your Jihad.
Inshallah! :sultan:

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I can't deny that that's true. In fact, I used to build my Grand Mosque in Arabia back when I first got the game -- it seemed only appropriate, since it's Islam's geographical heart, after all. It was only later that I realized it would be more effective to build the GM in Egypt or Syria! ~:doh:

Still, its religous significance aside, I find Arabia's strategic value to be almost nil. It's only since I've started playing Caravel's Pocket Mod that it's finally become worth holding onto. (Gotta love the bonus to both Arab Infantry and Bedouin Camel Warriors!) :yes:

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Originally Posted by Martok

(Gotta love the bonus to both Arab Infantry and Bedouin Camel Warriors!) :yes:

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You really are into Chamels, Oliphants and other exotic transport, aren't you? :mellow:

Never mind the bonus. I consider Bedouin Camels a penalty.
As such.
In and of themselves. :stare:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

You really are into Chamels, Oliphants and other exotic transport, aren't you? :mellow:

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Given my custom title, I think you alredy know the answer. ~D

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Never mind the bonus. I consider Bedouin Camels a penalty.
As such.
In and of themselves. :stare:

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That's all right Adrian; no one's perfect. I forgive you anyway. ~;p