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That's a good idea really. Can we start this discussion please?Quote:
Originally Posted by pevergreen
Which forums would be required? I guess it's nice to have a Barracks like forum, like in the past, to muster clanmembers. But perhaps there are other ideas too?
No it isn't a good idea, and every clan has their own forums to deal with bad blood between clans. No need to bring drivel and slop to a good place for information and fun.Quote:
That's a good idea really. Can we start this discussion please?
Which forums would be required? I guess it's nice to have a Barracks like forum, like in the past, to muster clanmembers. But perhaps there are other ideas too?
How about this instead, put a link to here.http://forums.totalwars.net/
And leave the Drivel where it belongs.:yes:
Bottom mate I think tosa just means he wants suggestions for the mp forums.
The quoted post was just sort of how to set out suggestions in a nice, civliszed (sp) way :2thumbsup:
Its nice to see TosaInu and other admins take an interest in the multiplayer side of things, though i believe a warzone will not be beneficial unfortunately :-(
Make love not warzone. :clown:
I do not think either that the ORG would need a warzone.
What would be good though is a tourney forum where tourney annoncements can be made and tourney results can be posted. Like the jousting fields. (And that is why the current name of this forum is misleading, as it is for tactical discussion and bug reports; I already said it before the naming event took place but no one was listening ...) Of course each major tourney has its forums but it would be good to have one where these tourneys could be reviewed, major events (like deadlines, winners) kept tracked.
If you re-read the Topic...Make a Warzone...post #23 and then refer to Tosas post with quote above.
You will see that pevergreen was suggesting, in his reply to the author of the Make a Warzone Topic, what would have been a more polite, civilised way of posting.
It was not a request to set this up.
Sorry for not being clear: it is a good idea to have a civil discussion and a civil result from that discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Bear7Bottom
I've visited the NET in the past and I've seen some public forums from some clansites, and some of that content has no place here.
However, there are several other things that do have a place here. The Barracks, like used in the STW and MTW days, were not my favourite hangout. Apart from some exceptions, it worked well though.
Right now, the tourney and clan messages (no not the 'bloodbad' ones, but that's not the only aspect of clans is it?) are 'swamped' in the other MP related topics here. Something like a Musterfield forum could be added.
I'm sure you can think/see other needs too. Perhaps something like a tactical analysis of battles you played, an MP AAR? Perhaps some mini campaigns? It doesn't matter much, as long as it's ok for everyone.
Well a replays section could be pretty cool the only problem is to get people to use it. Obviously some like to closely guard their tactics. But personally I'd have no problem in submitting some, however I do understand why some people may not want to. Perhaps some kind of poll asking who would submit replays or something.
A mustering hall, well being just a young nooblet I never played stw at all or mtw online, so I'm not sure how a musturing hall would work. I'd also like to point out most people who visit these forums are already clanned.
I like cheatahs idea, it also ties into your idea tosa about AARs, because tourney AARs could possibly be posted there, and also mine because tourney replays could be posted there. Perhaps tournaments could get a pinned topic each in this forum, in it would be enlclosed some information about the tourney and the results can be posted up there.
Just a few ideas,
With ten people posting here I don't see much use in another lobby.
How about a lobby, which only recognized clan leaders (or their designated Emissary) could actually post in. This would allow the announcement of new members, of recruitment, of tournament, leagues, etc . . All without some of the negative interference you see in some MP clan forums on major official sites. It would be easily moderated, if necessary and it would be a central place to come for clan news and happenings in the MP community.
I think a section to post AARs would be nice as well as another section to post replays and screenshots of battles. This would allow for some interesting discussions on maps and how best to attack/defend and other such team tactics.
Clans are doing a disservice to the MP community by not discussing such things. People who might stay around if they were able to learn such information now just get frustrated and leave since they don't stand a chance of winning, without such info. It all leads to a smaller MP community and one which eventually dies away.
I would rather be an average player in a very large MP community than one of the top players in a very small one.
Besides, if you TRULY believe you are skillful, you do not need to hide behind secret units/tactics/etc . . You will win anyways. Why not share things with the community as a whole?
It all leads to a better, larger, more-competitive MP experience. That was another reason why STW and MTW were so well thought of. They were very large MP communities and most clans were willing to train new players and show them all the "secrets". It didn't kill any clan's success. There were more excellent clans during those times than ever.
Good luck in deciding.
:bow: I am honoured to be quoted by the might Tosa.
As people have said, that was just a suggestion, and I was quite angry at the time, defending the org's honour :laugh4:
More than 10 people post here (me!) but not very often, as not much discussion happens.
That is why i believe Elmo should be MP forum moderator :laugh2: (no offence to any MP mods if there are any, Elmo is just so uber)Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo
:bow:
No Warzone? gooooood.
Not sure you are all aware of this, but the 7Bear7 Clan has an extensive training program since Shogun Total War for all new players to the game. Even the worse player ever can go through our training program and become a well rounded player in a matter of 3 months.
We have an extensive archive of army builds, tactics, and replays spanning over the generation of games that have been available to anyone who wanted to join a clan and was very new to the game.
Posting replays can cause "some" people to get upset. This is the major reason we do not post such ideas, in the past it generated hostility towards us. So we decided to develop this training program of scrolls to develop individual new players instead.
Seven years of thought has gone into this clan and is one of the reason we are still here today. As it was thought out in the beginning, we still have an open door policy for all new players in the community.
It would be interesting to see the reactions to replays if you guys decide to do this.
I'll be right here with anticipation watching this develop.
*Jumps behind sand bags and puts helmet on*
The danger with posting replays here, is that it does show a certain degree of disrespect towards the losing player.
Too often there are grudges held between players in the MP community, and allowing such displays would only lead to more aggression.The same applies to screenshots.
So do they have to join the 7Bear7 clan as a new recruit to have access to this vast library or is it open to anyone who asks?
If it is just to those who want to join the 7Bear7 clan then my previous statements are still valid.
New players leave because there is no public place to lay out such things so anyone has access to it, not just a few select individuals. This limits the size of the MP community in the manner described in my previous post. What about all the non-clan MP players out there? Should they not have access to such info.?
During Fearful Ways days, when I was its Daimyo, we didn't keep any secrets about the game we were playing. We played with anyone and anybody and showed players from different clans and non-clan'rs our tactics, our armies, and anything else they needed to be aware of. The MP community was beginning to fade, due to everyone's perception that defending gave the advantage to the defender, and the perception that camping was the way to win. Fearful Ways helped keep a lot of players in the community by proving even the hardest-looking maps (Such as Tosa) could be won against even good players if teamwork and tactics were used. Not by any secret information, nor secret tricks which few knew about.
I am not sure if any of you were around for our Big Tosa Mountain Map challenge, but we won more than we lost. Many of those new players we played with and trained went on to form their own clans, clans which are still around today. We never required them to join our clan, nor did we hold back any information. I think that was why the clan community grew as large as it did in the STW/MTW days.
This is why I see an MP discussion section, which allows for screenshots and AARs to be posted is a very good idea. The NF's Naked Fanatics have been posting replays at their site and linking to them from several forums and I have yet to see anyone who participated in those games getting upset by the replays or the discussions which followed. The .org was a very nice MP forum at one time, before certain things beyond the scope of the MP game interfered (Tera-Gate and ThePurge). Before that, it was a very interesting area of the forum. It could be that again since most of those who left, no longer play and there are many new players who would be interested in such a section.
It was stated there are few patrons who participate here regularly, which appears to be the norm for most other forums who have MP sections. I believe the reason why is the largest portion of the MP community (Clans) is no longer out there recruiting (not for the clan) but for the interest of players who are thinking of trying MP out. I do not see any clans currently offering any input to new players on how to play the game, what units/army builds are the best for a given era and florin level, and other things of interest to enjoying this game. From what I have seen, during my short time back, the clan community has insulated itself from the rest of the MP community by keeping their MP discussions in their own private forums instead of in the public ones where they used to be.
For those that want a truly level-playing field, there should be no discussion of units/armies/tactics that is taboo to discuss with the rest of the community. Though, I am not sure with the current clan environment, if it is possible at this time. There are a bunch of good clans out there, who play honest and fair, but most of them still hold back on their discussions so they can maintain that slight edge. Though I can guarantee you that every competitive clan has learned each and every one of those "edge" items and the only ones left out are the new & non-clan players who will leave in frustration when having to constantly face those who know the "edge". So why would some clans still not discuss these things openly, when their main competition (other clans) already have such info? I know a lot of clan members who need no edge to win, so why hold back in the forums?
Just a quick question: How does posting screenshots and replays show disrespect for any players? If the discussions are over what happened during the battle and the defining points of the match, and there are no accusations of cheating, etc . . how can this be construed as disrespect?
Everyone loses in this game. There isn't anybody who has played team games who hasn't lost more than once. If they think others will lose respect for them because they lost a few games, then the problem lies not in the posting of the replay, but in the losing player's personality/ego.
I think I understand what you are getting at: If replays and screenshots are allowed to be posted with comments like "He sucked", "His stupid move here lost the game.", "My loser of a partner didn't cover my flank." etc . . . then I can see where the disrespect comes into play.
However, if someone is designated to this new section to edit/delete out such childishness, then I don't see a problem with replays, screenshots, AARs and discussions of tactics. You just have to keep clan politics and egos out of it, which is easy to do by someone the clan community knows and respects as being impartial -- like Tomisama -- to name but one.
Here is a .com discussion which provides a link to the NF site where replays/screens are posted discussed. I might help to see what such a section look like:
http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotal...icID=401.topic
I probably have lost more games in TW than anyone in the community. I have seen replays of my many losses and have been kidded by those who played in the matches when I made bonehead mistakes. It was all in good fun and everyone enjoyed themselves in the game. I never once felt anyone was showing me any disrespect by posting their AAR, replay, or screenshot of the game.
Aye Elmo, but the discussions we have at the =NF= forums aren't serious, just like The Forumites, =NF= isn't a serious clan. Like we care if we lose, it's just fun to play the game. Everyone who visits the =NF= forums knows eachother, and we respect eachother (yeah even Guy and me ~D ). That's different from this, here we have all sorts of people, and different clans. I've seen some post made by so called self-proclaimed-veterans who think they're so good, and if you critise them they think they're under attack and start firing back.
I agree Stig. There will always be ego's to contend with, but I believe the majority of players are similar to the NF's and Ugly's. They play for fun.
Replays are invaluable in discussing team tactics. Lines of attack, maneuvering, etc . . You can learn a lot about watching replays and then discussing at what point the game turned into one team's favor. This kind of open discussion will only help those to decide to play MP and/or continue playing MP. It's good PR for the MP community. I would love to train players on the team aspect of MP. 1v1's are fine, but they are just a small taste of the fun you can have playing with others. People get burned out on 1v1's, if that is what they always play. By discussing team games with replays, screenshots, and AAR's it can show how exciting such play is. Most of those that stick around for the long term are 2v2 and up players.
Encouraging players to try team games by peaking their interest with such discussions, can only help the MP community (including the clan community) over the long haul. It has more to do with the community itself than the game. I know several people who stuck it out, even though they weren't thrilled with RTW's MP, just because they didn't want to leave their friends. I also know many more who left, not because of the game, but because the MP community didn't provide a good experience for them, due to its super-secretiveness and over-competitiveness. That was one of the reasons Obake and I formed the Ugly community. Things needed to change and we offered a nice alternative.
Aye, 2v2 and 3v3 are one of the main reasons I "joined" NF (am no proper member), I'm a member of The Forumites, but we're sort of death, most of us play much if we play a game once a week ... and then only for the MP campaign. The NF guys are far more active which means bigger change on a 3v3, which are the best imo ... especially when you decide to go for unorthodox armies and unorthodox maps.
speaking of Obake, what happened to the old Goat herder, haven't seen him in ages at the Pond
This has now become a very constructive topic. Ideas are forming and a structure seems to be developing.
If this type of forum was to bring back some of the community spirit that I was first introduced to when I started playing STW/WE mp I would give it full support. Anything that would increase the pleasure of mp can only be good for the game and the community.
I concur, I played in a little 2v2, lh vs nf, it was a very enjoyable game. I liked their attitudes alot, nice guys :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
@ Grendel
TBH I don't think anyone here thinks that somebody else has never lost a game. All this stigma of disrespect surrounding posting replays, imo, has just been around because people want to protect their tactics. As I've said before check out a site such as gamereplays.org, on normal RTS its actually considered more disrespectful if you don't post replays yourself, because it appears that your just looking at everyone elses without giving anything back.Quote:
The danger with posting replays here, is that it does show a certain degree of disrespect towards the losing player.
Too often there are grudges held between players in the MP community, and allowing such displays would only lead to more aggression.The same applies to screenshots.
Replays could also serve as a way to help newer players improve, more experienced players could download and offer tips on army builds, formations etc.
Furthermore, replays would actually give us something to discuss around here that isn't bugs or balancing. It would lead to direct conversations concerning how to combat certain types of army etc.
Anywho, I agree with Elmo's comments too :yes:
Again, just from administrative side and plain usefulness of new lobby. You do not need another lobby just for people sharing tactics and advices, why can't this be done here? Open a thread and see how it goes, then If you see it getting a lot of attention open a new lobby.
Gah! Elmo just said everything I was thinking:idea2:
I was dying to spend all night typing a similar essay but he beat me to it:wall: , so now i'd just like to say
Ditto to Elmo's comments:2thumbsup:
I try to play for fun both Ducky and myself do :D problem is when you start winning you ego gets fed and then someone like myself turns into a maniac when i lose a game i should have won lol. Yea............before I was like yay i lost! "thanks to Elmo's training" but since ive won more than lost and began to take it too seriously again :oops:
:juggle2:
I'm not sure or understand what you are saying Elmo, on the one hand you said this.
That is what 7Bear7 does, thought you knew that, we have never rejected an application to our clan yet that I know of. All new players are welcomed.Quote:
That was another reason why STW and MTW were so well thought of. They were very large MP communities and most clans were willing to train new players and show them all the "secrets". It didn't kill any clan's success. There were more excellent clans during those times than ever.
Then, on the other hand you are also saying this.
I can't tell you how many times I have trained new players in a game that were not 7Bear7, not just me, but Kuma, Dej, Polar, Scar, etc.Quote:
So do they have to join the 7Bear7 clan as a new recruit to have access to this vast library or is it open to anyone who asks?
If it is just to those who want to join the 7Bear7 clan then my previous statements are still valid.
New players leave because there is no public place to lay out such things so anyone has access to it, not just a few select individuals. This limits the size of the MP community in the manner described in my previous post. What about all the non-clan MP players out there? Should they not have access to such info.?
We play for fun and always host hill maps, meaning we are at the bottom of the hill and the other side is at the top.:)
Many players have been trained as Bears and have moved on to other clans with our doors always open for them.
We don't PW our games and they are open for all to join, unlike other people who just let a select few in.
Part of our clan code of honor is to help the community as stated here.
http://7bear7.com/codeofhonor.html
So to answer your question Elmo, anyone who wants help can get it from us without being a member of Bears.Quote:
I will freely offer help to memebers of the community
I'm a little confused, because I thought everyone knew this already about us.
But I am glad now this discusion was started so I could reiterate it again.
One thing about the replays, there's 2 ways of posting them:
1. OMG LOOK I PWNED THIS N00B
and
2. Look I had a nice 2v2 with some nice guys, thought I'd share it with you. Watch the replay it's a very entertaining battle.
I think that the first is what Grendy means, disrespectful ... tho I don't mind if I were the n00b, I'm a n00b anyway
TBH I've opened up a couple of forums myself, won't bore you with what they where about but in my experience on a forum many people for soem reason don't like to open up new threads, but they will reply to them, I don't know why but from what I've seen thats just the way it goes. Its a similiar situation here, you just need to give someone some direction/ideas on what to post and they probably will (IE. opening up designated forums.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lavos
Also, going off your philospohy of basically saying theres not point in designated forums, a main root forum can account for all. Then what would be the point of many of the org's (useful imo) forums such as the new m2 AAR sp section.
edit: Oh don't get me wrong I have my doubts about aar/replays section. Loads of people,. unfortunately the majority, very much safeguard their tactics very closely.
Thank you 7Bear7Bottom. It's good to reiterate again, and perhaps also to make it more widely known to the accidental passer by. I sure hope though, that it will be picked up by more teachers. So, this would make a 'Learn to play MP' forum? I can see the risk of bad blood with taunting there (your karate bad, my karate is best). (New) players should feel free to ask any MP question, 'tutors' safe to answer without being mocked.
That said, I understand about secret kungfu and no one will force you (a generic you) to reveil all your tricks. However, a new player is already helped much by learning the basics and beyond basics. Any MP player should be able to tell something.
Id gladly offer help on the basics if someone had questions... so sounds gd to me :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by TosaInu
Well a forum to post your favorite tactics would be nice yes.
Thread like these would fit very well in them, but as Monarch said replies are made quicker then new threads.
Posting Replays won't be a godo idea (unless you like to show people them, like I do :D)
Why? Well, Depends on what. You give us Communtiy a replay of a normal, Friendly 1v1. Say, Me .vs....... Hm, Tosa!
So Tosa thinks it be ok to post it here. Well it is. I won't mind anyhow :)
But if Mizu/Tosa Was in a Tournment
say
CWC
and they win CWC, and have the replays
would it be a good idea to psot tournment replays here? I admit, I do have tournment replays from previous clans I was in, and I do view them for my own purposes.But For Respect of those clans, I won't pass them on. They for me, and me only and for me to use.
correct??
Why not? In theory the best players win those tournaments (tho most likely they're players out there who are just as good, they just don't join clans and forums and such), so in theory the final should be an epic match ... a match which could learn us all something, why not posting it?
On television you also see Football matches, what you're saying is this:
Let's not show Arsenal-Chelsea, Chelsea lost so that wouldn't be nice to them
I understand the point {BHC}KingWarman888.
It can be said that it will force the winner to play even better in the next round: quality of games spiral upwards.
It's a weird though perhaps, but at this moment, nothing prevents showing recorded battles from tourneyplayers. You can record them without the other person knowing it and you can distribute it without him/her knowing. So, it's false to rely on privacy here.
It's frustrating though, when a whole coalition starts to analyse your style(s) and devises countertactics while being in a running tourney. The person no longer fights one person, but a huge team.
So, it won't be a good idea to post replays of running tourneys, unless all involved agree with it.
Bottom: I stated I had been away for awhile and didn't know much about those clans I was familiar with during the STW/MTW days. One statement in your previous post, made it sound like someone had to join your clan now before you guys would train them. I thought that odd, given what I know of you guys, and that was why I asked the question. :yes: It is good to see you old guys are still out there helping promote the MP community. Unfortunately, your clan seems to be in the minority currently. PS: Is Kuma playing M2TW? I haven't seen his ugly butt around the lobby yet. If not, tell him to stop being so cheap and join us. Tell him I am getting cocky and he needs to humble me! That will get him to play M2TW online! hehe
I want to encourage others to do what you guys do. Next time any of you see someone interested enough in MP to be asking questions about what units/tactics to use, take a little time and explain it to them. Play a couple of games with them, offering advice on how they can improve their game. Do so with no other purpose than to promote the MP community and I think we will see a marked increase in the number of players who join in our community.
One reason a section of the forum need be made for such discussions is it helps highlight MP and would be one-stop shopping for all things concerning bettering your MP play.
I like the idea of calling it a "Learn To Play" MP forum. This gives the section meaning and a purpose. It also helps focus the discussions on "Learning to play" rather than "Bragging rights". Really, all that is necessary now is to find someone to moderate the new section on a trial basis (let's say 3 months), then after that, everyone could evaluate whether it is serving its purpose or not. If not, and few are posting in it, then it could be merged with the regular forum.
Think of it as a FrogBeast Egg "living document" which is constantly being updated as discussions bring up new information. As a matter of fact, I think FrogBeast Egg would be a good person to mod such a new section, given Frog's expertise in teaching others about the TW series of games.
Wonder if Frog would be up to it?
Of course you would get better training if you joined us, that's a give in.
Training people off the cuff is not easy and is why most don't do it.
I also know about 4 player types and those of you have tried to train new players have seen this.
1. New player doesn't listen to you at all and does his own thing regadless of what you say to them. Maybe doesn't speak English. Maybe....:)
2. New player listens to everything you say about unit selection then when game starts, rushes in and dies. Tells everyone on the team you suck and leaves you in a 4 vrs 3 3 vrs 2 etc. hee hee (is this where the skill comes in? Was this what you were talking about?):laugh4:
3. New player takes all your advice in everything you tell them, then when game starts, says bye, then disconnects on purpose. Bottom is not sure why this happens, Twilight Zone stuff.
4. New player does everything you ask and follows direction.
So there are some people you can help and other that are unhelpable. Setting up forum might help things, why not test it out and see if it flys.
Bottom would be happy to post replays but he doesn't want any Wolves upset.:laugh4: :oops:
Kuma plays still you just need to know his names online, pm me for them hee hee.
Well it doesn't especially need to be a "Teach the New" forum. You can also discuss tactics in it. From these tactics the new can then learn something, etc etc. They will then come up with tactics, and you can discuss them, and so on
What is per se, we would make a forum for MP Newbies where there would be a group of teachers designated to help people. What I mean is, you would have a .ORG subclan called Squires or something of that sort. Players of known reputation would donate their time to training these people online and help them. So when people come online and they wear a certain tag, they are easily identifiable to the teachers. The teachers are also responsible for posting lesson guides for these newcomers. Am I making any sense? It is not a clan but a readily identifiable group who are contributing to the knowledge base of the community.
Also I think that a tournament section is a must. Though it would require an active administrator to keep the active tournaments and tournaments resources stickied to keep the forum worth viewing. It would be a good way to help minor tournaments spread the news, and especially a guide for new clans to find out where the competitions are, otherwise its very difficult to stumble into the core grou of tournament goers. If I started off just now I would never find the MP subculture.
Maybe easy "Org-only" tourneys work. I don't join tourneys, I can't be bothered to make time and such for people I don't even know from a forum. And I know enough who think the same, they can't be bothered to sign up for them.
If you make tourney's organized here on .org you might get loads of players who never visit the MP forums, because they don't look into them.
Another suggestion for a forum name... MP Training Ground
Learning to Play could be as an Announcement, with a description of what the aims of the forum are to start the forum going.
Then some Topic headers to give the members somewhere/something to start posting.
For example...1.-Unit selection...2.-Deployment...3.-Method of Attack/Defend...etc. etc.
Just some ideas to start things rolling.
A link in this post... https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...6&postcount=43
The replays/screenshots issue would be entirely up to the individuals whether or not they want to show them. Surely they would only be used as an instructional tool to help show what is being said/illustrated/taught?
Yes I agree that a tourny for the .ORG would be fun, but imo the most skillful players in the community don't really come here. As I said in my previous post, they are involved in a different circle of the community than the players who play here. Not to say the .ORG people are not skillful, but the typical competitions have been organized by another group of the community who do not necessarily affiliate themself with the .org.
I have been wanting to write a MP user guide for some time, but have lacked the inspiration. I tried to make one with Cow but he bailed on TW. Perhaps if Bazzer would assist me in the project, I think we could come up with some very good and useful information.
Again,Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig
It's TIme for The King to Tell his Example Stories again :yes: :yes:
For Example (#8888)
Grey Wolves
RTK
SC
SB
Fearfull Ways
Mizu
Hunters
BHC
are in a 8 clan MTW/VI CWC Tournment.
ok, so I go on.
so SC, and SB and them take out each other, and it comes down to
Mizu
Grey Wolves
BHC
Fearfull Ways
now BHC is facing Fearfull Ways, and Wins Barley. Grey Wolves are Facing Mizu, and lost to Mizu.
So Grey Wolves, Still Angry over their close lost to Mizu, decides to give Me and my (dead) clan BHC, the replays of the game
and BHC goes on to win the CWC tournment
*wakes up from dream*
Ok, So you get my point? In that Case, it won't be fair.
Those Replays should be given t Trusted Members of the clan athat are going to be respsenting the clan in Tournment like CWC or CWB,etc........
Even After The Tournments, it will not be "honorable" so to speak, Because If those clans get similar face-off's again, their "feuds" may be running along, thus replays will be handed out before/during/after, and ruining the whole "make your own tatcis" aspect of Total War.
Bottom, Grey Wolves may Be Dominat, But do not face Magyar Khan when he is eating his Sheep! Or he will Run you over 3 times (like he did with me:yes: ):beam:
For Training,
Set up a Training section on this fourm with Guides,Pics, and Agreed Replays to show.
and/or,
just have your own Academny so To Speak
Example:
KingWarman88's TW Acedemy
I will help train you in the aspects of flatland,hilly and castle games on MTW and VI, Flatlands and Hilly maps on RTW, and Flatlands on MTW2, in 1v1's, 2v2's and 3v3's.
example :2thumbsup: :laugh4:
God, I pround of myself when I make a good post
The End
:yes: :yes:
*runs away with Swiss Army back to VI castle!!!!!!!!*
Since when did clans stop posting their tournament replays just after the fact? In the past they would post those the next day for all to see. If you are REALLY good, someone seeing a replay of you will not make any difference amongst good players. However, these matches DO make a BIG difference among new players who can learn much about what makes a successful team.
Competition ruins many a good community, especially amongst the clan communities. Non-clan players find themselves unable to find games to join, due to clans being afraid of someone spying on them, and clan members find they are limited to playing with only those they know and trust. Thus, is the beginning of the end once more for the MP community.
If a clan is REALLY good, they will be recognized whether they win tournaments or not. All those clans you mentioned Warman are well respected and acknowledged for their good team play. Is it really that important to keep replays from the rest of the community, due to some paranoia about the opposing teams learning something so fantastic that it will make a difference in the next game? The ability to adapt is one of the things that make a good team great, not some sort of tactic or unit selection which can be easily copied/countered. So passing on replays as they happen, would not make any difference to those teams competing in that tournament.
However, the best way to handle this is to make sure that you ask before posting such screens and replays. The mod of that section of the forum should also remove such replays if anyone in the game or clan asks them to. Would that make it more palatable for those fearing to have certain replays posted?
Warman your post is just wierd to me, why should I be angry if I lost a game. It's a game, not real life. If I lost the World Cup then yes, I might, but still might, be angry. This is just a game, get real and just have fun.
Hi guy's,
So, to summarize, most members posting here would like to see additional sub-forums created.
Roughly along the lines of:
Tournament Field: for Tournament advertising/results and Clan recruiters.
Training Field: for Replays and advice on controlling online battles.
Around the brazier: a General MP discussion forum
( The names are subject to change, I had to call them something! )
Does that sound like a reasonable starting point?
The best way to learn to play is to play. ~:)
SP needs more of this kind of guide forums as for obvious reasons you cannot see how other people play in SP.
In MP, however you can see very easily how others play (and you would be in a big trouble if you dont), thus the easiest way to learn is to play with the best and play a lot.
The main use of replays for me are as follows:
- correct my own mistakes
- get some info about our next tourney opponents
Obviously none of these functions favours a replay forum.
Watching some random guys killing eachother is not much fun, the time IMO is better spent playing. If you really want to know those random guys then play with them and save the replays.
All in all IMO a replays forum:
- needs lot of work
- becomes obsolete with each path
- potential hotbed of bragging, flaming (needs a lot of work to controll it)
- cannot offer much more than the player can do for himself, i.e. play a lot and save the replays.
On the other hand the following things could be done without much debate:
- Set up a dedicated tourney forum. I am sure that the tourney admins will come and update us on each of the major tourneys.
- Set up a faction forum, very much like the SP guide forums. I am willing to write up a short intro with some basic setups about each factions (alternatively if we have enough volunteers we can do faction assigments), but I am sure that as soon as you open the threads lots of people will be posting. (Also if you needs mods for this forum then I am ready to help)
- Write up an MP guide. YM we can split up the work, I am sure I can get some more help. ~;)
We posted a the same time.
Strictly for tourneys IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob The Bastard
General advice can be offered on the general MP forum, but it could be done. Just there might be a bit of a confusion that which threads belong here and which ones to the general discussion. Replays, see above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob The Bastard
That is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob The Bastard
+ faction forumsQuote:
Originally Posted by Rob The Bastard
Cheetah, it shouldn't be a replay forum, it should be a tactics forum. You post your strategies and use some replays to support it. You post your latest battle and say what went wrong and why, or you use it to introduce a new strategy
Cheetah: I believe the whole point of this section should be the retention of new players to MP. Discussing tactics using replays and screenshots is the best way to accomplish such in a short amount of time. The "learn by playing" method doesn't retain new players who keep getting crushed by veterans and clan teams and quit in frustration. You can learn a lot by looking at replays and screenshots as part of a discussion.
But then again you guys who are in a clan already know this, so why deny new MP players the same info? Its not like it will hurt a veteran, highly-respected, highly-experienced and highly-skilled clan such as RTK. Your teamwork is what wins you matches, not anything which could be found in a replay. I somewhat support your early statement Cheetah: Teamwork comes from many hours of practicing/playing with your teammates until you know when they need help without having to think about it and until you know your teammates will be there to hold the flank without having to ask. This aspect of the game is a "Learn by playing" method, but the tactics we are speaking of are those which can be learned by discussing, watching, reading (of which screenshots and replays could be a great tool).
Rob: Those section breakdowns would be fine in getting the ball rolling. Since it will only be a test section to see if things work out well for discussion purposes. If it turns into a flame war area, then it is easily removed. :)
PS: This would also be a great place to post replays concerning exploits, bugs and other problems with game balance. For example:
1. The JHI attack speed making them win vs. units they probably shouldn't. 2. The "Push-Through" exploit of certain horse units (Hobilars for instance) which allows you to get a continual charge bonus and "push" your way through pikes/spears/other more expensive cav, by continually clicking behind the enemy unit after contact.
3. The overpowering cav charge by light horse units vs. pikes/spears/etc . .
4. How routing units can outrun cav units and also how when attacking these units your entire chasing unit will stop and not continue the chase.
5. How, once routed your units are removed from the Group they were initally assigned to and you must re-attach them to the group after they rally.
......and all the other things people have found which they would like corrected. CA loves proof of such problems and replays/screenshots are the best way to do this.
Now if you like, you could rule that the posting of replays/screenshots must be accompanied by a valid discussion of a certain game bugs, imbalances or battlefield tactic and any replay posted for bragging rights or other non-specific reason would be removed. You could also rule that if anybody asks for a replay or screenshot (which has either them or their clan members included) to be removed then it will be removed immediately. This would allow the clan community to keep certain info. off the public forums.
People have always had the means of posting replays wherever and whenever they want, and such things have never been a problem, so why would anyone think it would become a problem now, just because you can do that here?
If u need the help mel i might be able to do a few things :P already got a few "basic" guides in my forums atm...
The problem is if we want these new forums *which are gd ideas* its about making sure other members of the multiplaying community come here and show an interest to what is being done.
I myself only joined these forums recently simply because i didnt believe there was any reason to join until medieval was on the doorstep, this may change alot of peoples opinions? What makes it great is that everyone has a different playing style in multiplayer. I was pretty much self taught and because of that i apparently do some "mad" if not stupid things at times lol... If all of these players were to post how they play in games then the "newbs" could pick a style that they felt suited their ideas.
A wide variety of play is what we want to show everyone. There is room for many styles of play and highlighting them will increase everyone's enjoyment of this game. My style is to play "professional victim" whilst my teammates capitalize on that fact. :)
Elmo said it all. I only add few words. In the world of martial arts some issues as described here are present there as well. I'm relying on secret strategies, tactics, secret blows and similar things. Boloney.Quote:
It's frustrating though, when a whole coalition starts to analyse your style(s) and devises countertactics while being in a running tourney. The person no longer fights one person, but a huge team.
There is common persuasion that if you know a secret technique you have advantage against your opponent. However the individuals who are convinced in this are mistaken. They are not improving themselves becaus they are relying on an illusion. Those who share their knowledge with others are constatly improving themselves.
There as well is nothing to worry that someone will copy you. He can do that but will never achive the same effect with your gameplay or army setup. Each has to find his own way.
Playing with 2 or 3 HA units on the flank and harrasing his front missile line. Cheap HA units are there to intercept opponent missiles from his HA units (if you use expensive one use them just befor the melee) so my elite units are not effected by opponent HA units and I don't have to chase them constantly.Quote:
My style is to play "professional victim" whilst my teammates capitalize on that fact. :)
Atm in team matches xbow armies are very popular, especially Milan faction becaus it has strong xbow units which have very long range. That means that you as player on the other side of the team, have to come closer to the enemy positions if you don't have long range missile units.
Becaus of the popularity of xbows, I've started using 3 xbows (long range - check which faction have them) with 1 def upgread and 2 long range archer units and few light and some heavy cavalry units and strong infantry (it works in team match if supported with 1 or 2 cavalry units just to neutralize charge from opponent cavalry or even infantry). While those xbows are there toprevent that my infantry units are hit by opponent missiles, those 2 archer units with long range missiles serve very well to drive away the enemy HA units (usually 2 or 3, in few cases even 4) or his skirmish cavalry which is trying to harrase my missile line. If this is even supported with 1 or 2 skirmish cavalry units with 2 HA units of yours, effect is even better.
When seting up such army you have to be careful that you have enough strong units for the end of the battle where melee takes place.
Hee hee, that's you.Quote:
Bottom, Grey Wolves may Be Dominat, But do not face Magyar Khan when he is eating his Sheep! Or he will Run you over 3 times (like he did with me)
Anyways, I think we should just give it a go and post the replays etc.
As for tournament replays, maybe wait till the tournament is over, by that time there will be a new patch(we hope) and play will change with that patch.
I'm also sure that there will be a final mod developed for MTW2 because 2nd patch did not fix all the issues.:laugh4:
A direct link to the Academy, mentioned in my earlier post, to show what could be set up for the Training Ground or Training FieldQuote:
Originally Posted by Jochi Khan
http://nomadalliance.forumup.com/for...dalliance.html
The Academy has been very well written and presented. Well worth reading.
A good introduction to MP for present players/newcomers to the game.
Just to give this a bit of a bump, good idea imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheetah
... rehashing ...
Tournament Field: for Tournament advertising/results and Clan recruiters.
Training Field: Discussion on MP tactics and controlling online armies. Replays allowed for training purposes ( no gloating! :) )
Links to other sites with training content.
a Faction Sub Forum recommendations on unit/army selection and tactics for each faction.
Around the brazier: a General MP discussion forum
???
Aye something like that sounds cool, tho you can do all the factions in the Training forum as well
I think those three headings would amply cover what has been discussed. :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob The Bastard
A good idea to add the Faction Sub Forum. This would take some of the pressure off the main Training Field forum which could/may get a lot of postings.
Agreed those topics are good for me as well.
PS: Bottom, I think you will see that this can work well for everyone. If it doesn't I will let you rout my army off the field of battle on a regular basis . . . oh wait, you do that now . . .nevermind! :beam:
PSS: I was hoping though that the Training Field section would have been named:
Elmo's Noobish Super Secret Expert Hints, Tips, and Techniques Extraordinaire Discussion Group
Though that might not all fit on the same page as the rest of the section titles. . . . . Oh well, I can always dream! :laugh4:
What about the E.N.S.S.E.H+T+T.E.D.G :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
This is how it should be. In all tourneys replays should be always available for all. Right after battle replays should be posted, there is no need to wait untill tourney ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
To hell with other clans knowing your tactics, if this is a rule you also know theirs, right? With this in place, clans would be warned of rushers and other surprise things and there would be less backdoor grey stuff in trading replays and undercover spying.
But, I guess this is for some tourney forum not for here.
I agree with Lavos here. Besides if I'm not mistaken there are few skilled players playing with fake tags. Not willing to admit defeat against a newbie with a ''true tag''? heh
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
Competition doesn't Ruin this Game El. If you have none, Then how can you have alot of fun on the game then? Just like in Real Life. If you have a Business,say a Computer Business, and you are beating every other Comp Busniess out there. It won't be fun with out any Competition, because you ar forcing people to jsut buy your products, or they go without computers.
Just a Example.
Competition Makes TW fun. You can have fun without it, but it adds into the fun.
Stig, My post was never directed at being angry at a lost. I know it is a game, and I don't need anyone to tell me otherwise Stig. I was just stating the point in a gaming standpoint, not a real life. Winning the World CUp isn't important to me since I don'tl ike soccer anyhow :laugh4:
I guess I should have phrased it Over-competitiveness.
Every game you play is a competition. But there are two kinds of competition: Friendly and serious. It is the serious type of competition that has ruined many an MP community. Serious competition has been shown to bring out the worst in some people and groups. :) I didn't make myself clear on that, sorry.
TBH i wouldnt mind owning a company that had a monopoly in something and basically made other attempts of business look stupid :laugh4:Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
Quote:
Originally Posted by }{Huscarls}{Barrett|L|
Nethier would Anyone else here :beam: :laugh4:
Yes El, I think you was trying to get to that point.
Nothing wrong with a CWC or CCS or a Similar Tournment Style of Competition. It just when it becomes serious to the point of, Trading sick pics against each other for insults,hacking, constaly fourm bicking and hundreds of games against each other, that's when it becomes touble-some. Some People love that type of competition. Hell, I used to love it--------- Untill I realzie it wasn't going to get me anywhere, and by, it was obisoulty to late for me to fix most and/or all of the damage.
Yes there are a "Silent" few who use fake tags to be "Silent" about themselves. Some use this "Silent" tag method because they are so obnoxious in their regular tag they have been "Silenced" by the majority of people and put on ignore/banned.:yes:Quote:
I agree with Lavos here. Besides if I'm not mistaken there are few skilled players playing with fake tags. Not willing to admit defeat against a newbie with a ''true tag''? heh
Which coins a phrase, "Silence" is golden?:inquisitive:
Some one recently sudgested in the Monkey Business tournament to post the replays but you can guess the reaction. So we will have to pool our resourses and maybe try to get the admins from the tournaments to put it in their rules?
Wishful thinking?:juggle2:
Not hard imo, just put a rule that winner must post replay or they don't get a win. :D
Lol bottom, who can decipher your code!
I wouldnt say that that case is about overcompetetiveness, just douchebags. I am overly competetive, hate to lose and such, but I don't act like them...except to antigonus, but he deserves it. And Monsta...he too deserves it.
Or they could post a Game Of The Week, highlighting a really nice tactical play or turning point in a match. Then explain to everyone where in the replay this event happened and allow everyone to be awed by their brilliance. :)
I now see bottom why a certain member of your clan registered on our forums .... hmm to watch the replays? :laugh4:
hmmm...
Little 'puns' make big snipes, the result is not constructive.
Many a true word spoken in jest eh? A lot worse has happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Denali
This is asking for trouble.
The bitching and personal insults will follow, they already have so why provide more space for it?
There is no MP community
......Orda
Orda: Even though you and a few others do not feel M2TW MP is worthy of play, (and apparently even worthy of discussion), there are quite a few who ARE enjoying the game, warts and all. Now the .org site needs to decide if it wants to continue on as a mostly STW/MTW forum (with a small group of RTW/M2TW participants thrown in), or if it wants to work on including the new MP community among its ranks.
If the .org wants to grow its MP community, I recommend establishing a new MP M2TW section. If it wants to just revel in the past MP community, and complain about the current state of MP affairs, I recommend not creating an M2TW MP section.
If a majority of you are satisfied with the status quo, then do not change anything. Continue on, as is, if it makes you happy.
If a majority of you decide to try to bring some more members to the .org and work on recreating a portion of the MP community STW/MTW enjoyed so much, then make the changes Rob recommended.
Its your decision. Either way, the TW series is going to move forward, with or without some of you, and so will its new fan base. You can insulate yourself from the new community or you can try to work within it to make it better.
I realized awhile back, that the old TW series/MP community is gone. It isn't coming back. This has been proven during the last two game releases. CA isn't going to change its mind on this. Once I left the resentment behind, I found I was able to enjoy M2TW MP.
I am the first to admit M2TW has problems, some of which will never be resolved, however the old STW/MTW community had some of these very same problems, but it dealt with them, and enjoyed the MP game for many years.
I am sure it is cathartic to point out all of M2TWs flaws and to prove to the new enthusiastic members how inferior the current game is when compared to the old, but what is it accomplishing? It is chasing off the very people who would keep this forum exciting.
At first, I thought some older patrons were pointing out flaws in the current game as part of an effort to persuade new patrons as to what makes a game good. However, from what I have heard recently, it appears this isn't the case. It has turned into an ugly "us vs. them" argument where one side says it is right in its assessment of the game, and the other side says it is right. To tell you the truth; I no longer give a damn about who is wrong or who is right. I would be satisfied with having a place where M2TW MP players can hold discussions without the older, and sometimes more jaded, patrons jumping in to explain how inferior M2TW is, how the current MP community has no clue as to why M2TW is inferior, how the new game has been dumbed-down, and then passing judgement on anyone who happens to enjoy playing the current game.
Case in point: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...t=73337&page=8
If that cannot happen here, with a new M2TW MP section, I am sure it will happen somewhere. That's not a threat, but a given. Someone will decide to give it a shot, though it would have a higher probability of success here, where the .org would also reap the benefits of an influx of new patrons.
As I said before. It's up to you: decide.
You can always try. A couple of people don't like the game, but there are also people that DO like the game, why not give them something too.
If you don't try you never see if it works ... but then if we don't try we can never prove certain people wrong ... scared?
my agreesQuote:
I would be satisfied with having a place where M2TW MP players can hold discussions without the older, and sometimes more jaded, patrons jumping in to explain how inferior M2TW is, how the current MP community has no clue as to why M2TW is inferior, how the new game has been dumbed-down, and then passing judgement on anyone who happens to enjoy playing the current game.
They registered there long ago because of Furious being their friend and former clan m8. (makes coffee for Denali to wake up)~;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Denali
I now see bottom why a certain member of your clan registered on our forums .... hmm to watch the replays?
hmmm...
No, it's ok, the ironic thing is, their best player there was trained and bred by the Bear Clan. If Denali would like to become as good as Silent Furious is, we would be more than happy to train him aswell.~;) And no bones about it, Silent Furious is an awesome player. I'm so Proud.~:cheers:Quote:
This is asking for trouble.
The bitching and personal insults will follow, they already have so why provide more space for it?
I have been saving some replays, so I will post them when this gets off the ground.:beam:
lmao im not even gonna reply to that bulls**t bottom... trained.. my ass :dizzy2:
Anyway im not going to continue the flaming.. As I said before only a small part is regulary active here so the point would be to make something special..
To be honest i didnt read all the long posts above but here is my idea:
Ive seen that in other forums (other games).. A member of the publisher team or much better some1 from the developer (CA) dedicates himself to the community, meaning he is here to answer the questions the community has. Since the .Org is the only real contact point to get in touch with CA so that would be the chance to make this place popular again (for the mp community i mean) ...
Just an idea
Orda try playing the game in multiplayer before u make an opinion plz
I am enjoying the experience and have enjoyed it all the more because of the number of ppl i have talked to and discussed things with over last few years.
Its not all bad... just ppl refuse to give things a chance and shun it at the first opportunity/window.
Thanks for that Elmo,Quote:
Originally Posted by ElmarkOFear
I have my opinions too and I am entitled to post them.
I decided that balanced MP had gone a long time ago. Unlike many I was not enfatuated with MTW and once it was patched it was worse. My view on the game is irrelevant, I am fully aware of that too. There are MP forums for every TW release already so I can only assume that these new sub forums are M2TW related or are we getting MP sub forums for each title?
Whatever the case I stand by my statement that it is asking for trouble.
I already see an element of this with certain members. What happens when some enthusiastic youngster posts some ideas on tactics only for someone to post a replay showing that he 'pwned' these tactics? Then the huge egos and personalities who believe they truly are some glorious General begin. I've seen all that before and I'm not interested.
In that link you will see my reply and it is precisely for these reasons.
BTW, I did not even mention the game, I was talking about MP sub forums of the nature suggested already and the MP community
......Orda
Why do you assume that I haven't? Anyway, you seem to have missed the pointQuote:
Originally Posted by }{Huscarls}{Barrett|L|
......Orda
Because ure constantly saying how rubbish it has all been since the start of mtw, alot of ure posts concerning multiplayer are very negative and i would be extremely surprised if u had played m2tw online :book:Quote:
Originally Posted by Orda Khan
The point is there is a mp community, it like everything else has flaws... but what it does have are dedicated players who want to see it grow and succeed...
To each his own. You like cola I prefer milk. You are not hurting me when you drink cola, I don't hurt you when I drink milk.