hastati's pila won't kill a single hoplitai haploi in frontal phalanx attack

As the title says, start a custom battle, choose hastati as your own and hoplitai haploi for the other side. Let the hoplitai haploi attack you in phalanx formation, order hastati to fire at will. Allow the hastati to throw two volleys of pila. None of the hoplitai haploi will be killed by the thrown pila. Isn't this a bit strange?

When in formation phalanxes have an insane amount of sheild armor. It is just waisted to use missiles on the front of a phalanx. I agree that it is a bit retarded though.

Missles are underpowered in EB in many people's opinion.

The EB team disagrees.

I'd say in real life those pila should kill a few, but whatever. The EDU text balancing is the worst part (which is why I'm rebalancing it...)of the wonderful mod in my opinion.

At worst you would expect 2 volleys of pila to seriously disrupt the phalanx formation due to pila getting stuck in shields and screwing up the manouverability of the affected troops and those around them. As this can't really be modelled in EB, a few kills really should happen instead. No effect at all is a bit unrealistic.
Against arrows (from the front), the phalanx should be pretty well protected, but heavy javelins are another matter.

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Originally Posted by Kugutsu

At worst you would expect 2 volleys of pila to seriously disrupt the phalanx formation due to pila getting stuck in shields and screwing up the manouverability of the affected troops and those around them. As this can't really be modelled in EB, a few kills really should happen instead. No effect at all is a bit unrealistic.
Against arrows (from the front), the phalanx should be pretty well protected, but heavy javelins are another matter.

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Keep in mind that the first volley would remove the shields of many soldiers in the front rank, making them very vulnerable to the second volley.

Hoplitai comes from hoplo or the round shield. Made from Bronze reinforced from within with single or mostly double skin, mostly that of cow. Arrows couldn't penetrate it. Pilae didn't either. Pilae worked on the wooden shields with the iron boss that Lusotannan, Iberians, Averni etc, but rarely on hopla. It would have to be a very strong, really near and applied to exactly the right angle to achieve armor piercing status.

EB's results are fine.

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Originally Posted by keravnos

Hoplitai comes from hoplo or the round shield. Made from Bronze reinforced from within with single or mostly double skin, mostly that of cow. Arrows couldn't penetrate it. Pilae didn't either.

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I would argue that the name hoplite came more from the complete equipment (i.e. hoplon) of the soldier, rather than the shield (which took the more specific title of "hoplon" later).

Argive shields were not solid bronze; they were a bronze sheet facing a wooden shield framework to which were attached all the bits on the inside. If they were made of solid bronze with simply a lining of skin on the inside, as you suggest, they would be way too heavy.

I think your comments are very generalized. I've never seen a single test conducted on the ability of missiles to penetrate different shield types, but I highly doubt that pila could not penetrate an Argive shield.

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Pilae worked on the wooden shields with the iron boss that Lusotannan, Iberians, Averni etc, but rarely on hopla. It would have to be a very strong, really near and applied to exactly the right angle to achieve armor piercing status.

EB's results are fine.

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Do you have any evidence for this? How do you know it would have to be very strong and thrown from a short distance? Again, hopla were wooden shields with a bronze facing, not pure bronze.

This for me is unrealistic. The phalanx was a very static formation and the shield didnt cover all the body. So if the pila cant penetrate shield, why they dont do damage on other parts?? ( pila can hit other parts of body like the heads not cover by shield, and a pilum in the head (also with helmet) is not a nice thing:dizzy2:

Let the stat guys handle this. Not like this hasn't been raised before.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

Let the stat guys handle this. Not like this hasn't been raised before.

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Well, what's the reasoning of the stats guys for this?

DUDE JUST HANG ON. THIS THREAD IS AN HOUR OLD.

You people are ridiculous. We have freaking lives you know. Just give it more than a damned hour.

ARGH!!!!*(^&*)%$!

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

DUDE JUST HANG ON. THIS THREAD IS AN HOUR OLD.

You people are ridiculous. We have freaking lives you know. Just give it more than a damned hour.

ARGH!!!!*(^&*)%$!

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If it's been raised before, can you link to a previous discussion?

No. I can tell you to search for it if you want an answer sooner though. Don't you have something better to do? I know I do - actually making new things for this mod.

Are you using Polybian or Camillan Hastati?

If the latter, then the pila are not actually 'pila'.

The hoplon cant possibly be solid bronze. Working on a size of about 32 inches (80cm) across and about 1 cm thick, that makes a volume of about 5000 cc. (I am assuming the shield is flat and of equal thickness throughout. I know its not, but it makes the calculations easier...)
The density of bronze is about 8g/cc, so the shield would weigh in at about 40kg. I cant believe that they lugged that weight around, and thats just the shield...
If a pila struck even a solid bronze hoplon straight on, there should be a fair chance of it penetrating. If it was a glancing blow, then it would probably slide off.

Edit: which in itself could be a problem: a pila glancing upwards into the face will be unpleasant, and if it glances downwards, it could impale a leg or foot. Not lethal, but enough to put you out of the battle...

Shouldnt it be an aspis anyway?

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

No. I can tell you to search for it if you want an answer sooner though. Don't you have something better to do? I know I do - actually making new things for this mod.

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Haha, no. I'm currently killing some downtime at work, and internet access means that I sit and read forums.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

I would argue that the name hoplite came more from the complete equipment (i.e. hoplon) of the soldier, rather than the shield (which took the more specific title of "hoplon" later).

Argive shields were not solid bronze; they were a bronze sheet facing a wooden shield framework to which were attached all the bits on the inside. If they were made of solid bronze with simply a lining of skin on the inside, as you suggest, they would be way too heavy.

I think your comments are very generalized. I've never seen a single test conducted on the ability of missiles to penetrate different shield types, but I highly doubt that pila could not penetrate an Argive shield.



Do you have any evidence for this? How do you know it would have to be very strong and thrown from a short distance? Again, hopla were wooden shields with a bronze facing, not pure bronze.

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hoplo in modern greek means firearm. Hoplo in the ancient times could also mean weapon, but that happened to correlation with the hoplon (shield we talk about). In fact, it could be argued that calling a "shield carrier" as hoplite meant in the beginning evolved to the same hoplite meaning a "soldier" in later times. I am not sure that this had happened by Hellenistic times, though. It probably happened later, as after the Roman conquest, Greek terms of arms usage became ambiguous as their usage was not tolerated/allowed.

There were many different types of "hopla" around. From lighter ones, to the ones I mentioned. I have seen firsthand a hoplon which was Very thick and did weigh a ton. But again, as you know these things were not mass produced, rather each hoplite had his own made just for him. I accept for the sake of arguement that some pilae could go through hopla, evem many hopla, but DEFFINITELY NOT ALL, or even most. Then of course the quality of the bronze which produced the hoplon would have to be taken into account. The round size and curvature of the hoplon wasn't there for aesthetic beauty. It was also a most practical way to produce a shield which could withstand most of the things thrown at it. Beware, I said most, not all. Ancient hoplites, especially those in Thermopylae despised archery and archers, as they couldn't really be hurt by arrows, especially when in phallanx style they interlocked their shields(Hopla). This is why the saying "we will fight them in the shadow" etc. A properly interlocked static phallanx, with secure flanks was basically imprevious to archery.

As I said before, that was true for most, not all weapons. Heavy spears/akontia/peltai could and did penetrate the hopla, especially the lighter/cheaper ones you mention. If a phallanx wasn't properly flanked those same peltasts could find its weak spot and pepper it with spears/slingshots an the Phallanx could do nothing but stand and die (Karthadastim used this method with balearic slingers against the Greeks of Sicily). But the hoplon I have seen could only be pierced by either a bullet or broken by a warhammer or the heavy swords Galatians invading Greece carried. Its round shape and outward curvature provides equal protection and all parts of it sharing the weight of impact (if constructed correctly with the right amounts of bronze, not lightened up as often happened). Under the conditions I just mentioned and some simple physics, pilae would have a most difficult time penetrating it. Even if penetrating hopla would have to be A MAIN REASON why they were designed.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

Argive shields were not solid bronze; they were a bronze sheet facing a wooden shield framework to which were attached all the bits on the inside. If they were made of solid bronze with simply a lining of skin on the inside, as you suggest, they would be way too heavy.

I think your comments are very generalized. I've never seen a single test conducted on the ability of missiles to penetrate different shield types, but I highly doubt that pila could not penetrate an Argive shield.
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mind you that first volley are light pila - effectively standard, light javelins. They stand no chance against argive shield, esp from distance.

The second volley though, thrown at close range should penetrate shields.

but RTW is not made for 2 types of amunition. We can't just give one long range, light javelin and one short range, very heavy. We have to generalize, and in effect we have 2 long range, middle javs.

This is a problem also for heavy slingers, who should have both long range and short range slings for different types of amunition, but they can only have one, and in effect are extremely difficult to ballance against standard ones (heavy slingshot was devastating, but have short range. In RTW such a unit would be massacred by standard slingers)

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Originally Posted by Kugutsu

The hoplon cant possibly be solid bronze. Working on a size of about 32 inches (80cm) across and about 1 cm thick, that makes a volume of about 5000 cc. (I am assuming the shield is flat and of equal thickness throughout. I know its not, but it makes the calculations easier...)
The density of bronze is about 8g/cc, so the shield would weigh in at about 40kg. I cant believe that they lugged that weight around, and thats just the shield...
If a pila struck even a solid bronze hoplon straight on, there should be a fair chance of it penetrating. If it was a glancing blow, then it would probably slide off.
Shouldnt it be an aspis anyway?

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"Hoplon" means "tool," and so when talked about in the context of war, it means "tool of war," i.e. "armament," usually with a connotation of defensive equipment. It later took a more specific meaning of the large shield with a ~90cm diameter and an offset rim (at which point I couldn't tell you, though).

"Aspis" simply means shield in Greek, and it is sometimes used to specifically refer to the large shield with a ~90cm diameter and an offset rim later on.

Other names for this shield are "Argive shield" and "hoplite shield." I prefer "Argive shield" because it's unambiguous and specific.

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Originally Posted by O'ETAIPOS

mind you that first volley are light pila - effectively standard, light javelins. They stand no chance against argive shield, esp from distance.

The second volley though, thrown at close range should penetrate shields.

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But all the first volley had to do was stick into the shield so that it makes it too unwieldy for the bearer. A light pila could easily do that against an Argive shield.

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but RTW is not made for 2 types of amunition. We can't just give one long range, light javelin and one short range, very heavy. We have to generalize, and in effect we have 2 long range, middle javs.

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The impact still seems too minimal though. As Caesar Vastator said, even if it couldn't penetrate the shield, it could penetrate the equipment on other parts of the body (or hit an exposed area).

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This is a problem also for heavy slingers, who should have both long range and short range slings for different types of amunition, but they can only have one, and in effect are extremely difficult to ballance against standard ones (heavy slingshot was devastating, but have short range. In RTW such a unit would be massacred by standard slingers)

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Could something like that be done on the MTW2 engine?

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Originally Posted by F for Fragging

As the title says, start a custom battle, choose hastati as your own and hoplitai haploi for the other side. Let the hoplitai haploi attack you in phalanx formation, order hastati to fire at will. Allow the hastati to throw two volleys of pila. None of the hoplitai haploi will be killed by the thrown pila. Isn't this a bit strange?

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What would be strange to answer your question is for a unit, ANY unit to be facing Romans without some right tools to fight them with. Do you suppose those guys were there just to die? Or should all EB factions be nothing more than Romani fodder? I have played and enjoyed the Romani, IMMENSELY. I also like the fact that in EB, even if you are ROME, basically the biggest sword and shield war machine ever, you have to WORK for your conquests, not have it handed on you in a silver plater, and have the whole world running if you throw them some pilae. I mean face it guys. It all boils down to a simple question. Do you want WAR, or a walk in the park?

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Originally Posted by keravnos

There were many different types of "hopla" around. From lighter ones, to the ones I mentioned. I have seen firsthand a hoplon which was Very thick and did weigh a ton. But again, as you know these things were not mass produced, rather each hoplite had his own made just for him. I accept for the sake of arguement that some pilae could go through hopla, evem many hopla, but DEFFINITELY NOT ALL, or even most.

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The "heavy" Argive shields you mention are almost definitely parade shields. The weight of such full shields would have been prohibitive on the battlefield (even for hoplites used to carrying a full bronze panoply). The norm, at least according to the archaeological record, was for Argive shields to be coated in a fairly thin sheet of bronze.

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As I said before, that was true for most, not all weapons. Heavy spears/akontia/peltai could and did penetrate the hopla, especially the lighter/cheaper ones you mention.

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Peltai could penetrate the Argive shield? What?

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If a phallanx wasn't properly flanked those same peltasts could find its weak spot and pepper it with spears/slingshots an the Phallanx could do nothing but stand and die (Karthadastim used this method with balearic slingers against the Greeks of Sicily). But the hoplon I have seen could only be pierced by either a bullet or broken by a warhammer or the heavy swords Galatians invading Greece carried.

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Again, those that you've seen are probably parade shields. Shields that were substantially thick would have been way too heavy to carry into combat.

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Its round shape and outward curvature provides equal protection and all parts of it sharing the weight of impact (if constructed correctly with the right amounts of bronze, not lightened up as often happened). Under the conditions I just mentioned and some simple physics, pilae would have a most difficult time penetrating it. Even if penetrating hopla would have to be A MAIN REASON why they were designed.

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It seems, from most evidence, that the norm for Argive shields was the "lightened" form, so pila probably would have penetrated most.

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Originally Posted by keravnos

What would be strange to answer your question is for a unit, ANY unit to be facing Romans without some right tools to fight them with. Do you suppose those guys were there just to die? Or should all EB factions be nothing more than Romani fodder? I have played and enjoyed the Romani, IMMENSELY. I also like the fact that in EB, even if you are ROME, basically the biggest sword and shield war machine ever, you have to WORK for your conquests, not have it handed on you in a silver plater, and have the whole world running if you throw them some pilae. I mean face it guys. It all boils down to a simple question. Do you want WAR, or a walk in the park?

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How you want an army to play should have no bearing on its historical accuracy. Having no men die from two volleys of pila, even directly to the front of a hoplite phalanx, is historicall inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

But all the first volley had to do was stick into the shield so that it makes it too unwieldy for the bearer. A light pila could easily do that against an Argive shield.

The impact still seems too minimal though. As Caesar Vastator said, even if it couldn't penetrate the shield, it could penetrate the equipment on other parts of the body (or hit an exposed area).

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For the first one - no, light pilum wasn't better than jav thrown by standard hellenic skirmishers. It was the heavy one that was piercing shields and men.

When heavy pilum pierced shield it went in around 90 cm (lenght of iron part) - and this was proven by experiments against scuttum replicas. This was usually enough to kill the man behind shield. This was the main difference between light and heavy pilum.

for the second - yes, it could, but chance was rather small. Some minimal increase in attack may be considered but it have to be very carefully balanced, to prevent turning romans into RPG infantry :beam:

The first poster said 'Hastati'. Camillan Hastati would have no special effect (wouldn't they throw hastae rather than pila - pointless anecdote: it depresses me that the main UK textbook for Latin says that the first centurion is a primus pilus - "meaning 'First javelin'". Seriously, you'd think they could tell the. Judging by the initial poster's tone, I'm not sure.

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Having no men die from two volleys of pila, even directly to the front of a hoplite phalanx, is historicall inaccurate.

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How many men do the phalangites represent? Are the Hastati firing at long range (probably yes)? What size is Fragging playing on?

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Originally Posted by O'ETAIPOS

For the first one - no, light pilum wasn't better than jav thrown by standard hellenic skirmishers. It was the heavy one that was piercing shields and men.

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The first was designed to stick into shields, even if it wasn't meant to penetrate through to the carrier. I have no doubt that it would have been able to penetrate through part of the shield and render it unusable, as it was designed to do. The light pilum would also still be able to penetrate other elements of armour on the hoplite.

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When heavy pilum pierced shield it went in around 90 cm (lenght of iron part) - and this was proven by experiments against scuttum replicas. This was usually enough to kill the man behind shield. This was the main difference between light and heavy pilum.

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I wouldn't trust the penetration figures for a scutum when discussing Argive shields; scuta weren't faced with bronze, after all.

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for the second - yes, it could, but chance was rather small. Some minimal increase in attack may be considered but it have to be very carefully balanced, to prevent turning romans into RPG infantry :beam:

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But it's clearly not realistic to have two volleys of pila result in no casualties, and isn't the goal of EB to provide historical accuracy?

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

Having no men die from two volleys of pila, even directly to the front of a hoplite phalanx, is historicall inaccurate.

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Historically inaccurate? We can talk reconstruction, sure, but I haven't seen the "historical" argument yet...

That said, I agree that hoplitai haploi shouldn't be impervious to the pila, though I suspect (and someone who knows game mechanics better than I should confirm or deny this) the pila lower morale and make the battle end more quickly.

You could test this by doing that custom battle twice, once with the legionaries firing pila before impact, once with them waiting until impact to begin sword combat. See if the battle lasts longer the second time. I'd wager it does.

Having nothing to do with knowledge of the thickness of shields or the historical kill ratios of hastati or whatever - what is the mod supposed to do with shields that are pierced by spears? Does that mean the guy has to die? Obviously we can't do anything with the hardcode of the game and make the guy actually lose his shield. That part of the argument (not saying the whole argument, because I have no detailed knowledge of the stats/centimeters/etc.) can't be pressed much further - if the unit/stat guys have it where those guys die or not, saying either result is not historical or not accurate or not realistic or whatever is really blaming the RTW engine, not EB.

Oh yeah, sure it is not exactly accurate, but then again is a phalanx made up of 240 men at most quite... historical accurate? The few kills involved would be dwarfed by the scale adjustments needed...

Apart from that: may I take it that the hoplon shield was coated with layer of bronze? If so, then there's just one more question to answer: could contemporary arrows penetrate such shields?

If not then you may conclude that the pila wouldn't have hurt those guys very much: a pilum would need far more kinetic energy to penetrate the shield than an arrow would - and a skilled archer can 'provide' his arrows with much more kinetic energy per mass than any javelin throwing guy is able to 'provide' for his javelins.

You'd have much more succes 'striking' those guys at their helmets...

The reason why javelins and pila aren't killing many hoplitai haploi is because of the Vanilla phalanx thing. In 0.81 Hoplitai Haploi will fight in our Classical Hoplite formation and have had the shield rating reduced by 1, making them much more, although still not very, vulnerable to missiles. I'll try and dig up the thread in our internal forum that has some test results for missiles vs. various hoplites and post them.

When I try to test this out, my hastati never get their volleys in before the lines have engaged. I've done this five times now. Each time the haploi, just before they get in range, turn their shields towards the hastati, and run to their right, reform the line a little closer, then charge with spears out. When they hit, the first row of the hastati engage them, but the others let go their spears and immediately the 163 hastati trim the 162 haploi down to about 148 (immediately). When the hastati are reduced to 137, the haploi are at 42 and rout. Almost the same result all four times I played it out. As the greeks, I hit the line before they could throw their pila. Results were about the same still though in the end.

but you're using the internal set-up for the patch, not the .8 set-up with phalanx mode (i think), which was why i asked a non-member to test the fire-at-will and passive approaches to see if the effect differed.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

DUDE JUST HANG ON. THIS THREAD IS AN HOUR OLD.

You people are ridiculous. We have freaking lives you know. Just give it more than a damned hour.

ARGH!!!!*(^&*)%$!

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Wow. TA. Control man.

You guys are missing the obvious. Sometimes the Pila "don't" (I can almost hearing the gasping of the EB team members now) hit the hoplon, and instead go into the leg, arm, neck, whatever of the hoplite.

Now most of the time they shield will take the blow, but not always, and when you have that many pila being thrown at once, if two are coming at one guy, he may only be able to block one with his shield.

Another addition to the "Why I Hate Vanilla Phalanx Formation" list.

I loaded up an old V.80 game and ran three custom battles. In all of them, the Hastati were able to get off at least one pila attack, and every time it killed two Hoplites. So the whole premise that in a frontal attack, "not a single Hoplite can be killed by pila" is complete baloney. And after the two units met in melee, the results were invariably a crushing loss for the hoplites. In my three battles the hoplites lost 66, 68, and 75 men while the hastati lost 7, 2, and 4.

You know it was almost as if.......the Hoplites were fighting without shields....you know, shields that had to be dropped because of the pila sticking in them. No, THAT can't be right! Instead it must be that EB has screwed up again! Yeah, that's the ticket! :wall:

Wow, Kull, TA, you guys are really getting upset over this.

How did you kill 66 men and only lose 7? Did you attack frontally?

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Originally Posted by fallen851

Wow, Kull, TA, you guys are really getting upset over this.

How did you kill 66 men and only lose 7? Did you attack frontally?

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I'm not upset. It's just ho hum, another day of defending ourselves against baseless accusations. Somebody makes the bogus statement that pila don't kill ANY hoplites, and does anybody out here actually test it to see if it's true? Did you? Why of course not, it just validated your theory that our EDU is completely messed up. And almost everyone else just immediately assumed the statement was true. "What pila can't kill any hoplites? Well EB has gotten it wrong again!" What a load of horse hooey.

And TA is correct to remind people that we are under no obligation to provide ANY answers to ANYBODY out here. And certainly not when it is couched as a demand ("so where are those stat people anyway?!?!")

Yes, it was a frontal attack. And the third battle I was the Hoplites and the AI was the Hastati. Made no difference. If you watch the battle up close, it's pretty clear what's going on. As swordsmen, the Hastati "wrap around" the phalanx formation and start chewing away at the guys on the flanks. After a few kills, the wrap turns into a full fledged double envelopment. Few units can overcome that.

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Originally Posted by Teleklos Archelaou

When I try to test this out, my hastati never get their volleys in before the lines have engaged. I've done this five times now. Each time the haploi, just before they get in range, turn their shields towards the hastati, and run to their right, reform the line a little closer, then charge with spears out. When they hit, the first row of the hastati engage them, but the others let go their spears and immediately the 163 hastati trim the 162 haploi down to about 148 (immediately). When the hastati are reduced to 137, the haploi are at 42 and rout. Almost the same result all four times I played it out. As the greeks, I hit the line before they could throw their pila. Results were about the same still though in the end.

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I can usually get a volley off, but it all depends on the situation. I usually only see about 3-6 Haploi dead, but I play on large. This has to do with the fact that they have no armor. Normal hoplites, Spartans, and Carthaginian Libyan hoplites receive very few casualties. In melee Hoplitai Haploi don't stand much of a chance against Hastati, especially if they are in guard position and get surrounded.

Yeah, I got ticked off, and I still am. I just posted that we (talking to the other EB members who had posted) should let the stat guys answer it - and immediately (within two minutes) our new friend posted "well what is their reasoning?". If they don't get around to answering something (not just them, but anyone) inside EB after a couple of days, it's not a really big deal, but we ask for something again then. But two freaking minutes is too long to wait - there had to be a response "well..." within that two minute window. If I say we will let the stat guys respond, then posting TWO MINUTES LATER "well what is their reasoning" is going to really irritate me and is not going to get them to post. We don't rush to the internal forum and start a new thread with the title "HURRY UP - SOMEONE MUST POST ANSWER NOW!!!" or start PM'ing each other or something. Christ. Let's stop everything we are doing - call someone up on their cell phone if need be - and get the answer back within the hour that this thread has been open when this takes place. :wall:

I'm serious: we do have better things to do than get our project manager and project whip to stop their work and run tests on this that just totally blows the whole matter away anyhoo.

(Kull mentioned his 0.80 test and my numbers with 0.81 show a 162 men hoplitai haploi unit loses about 7 men with the pila throw of the hastati).

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Originally Posted by Kull

I'm not upset. It's just ho hum, another day of defending ourselves against baseless accusations.

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Next time just tell them, "Don't like it, make your own mod." :idea2:

This mod is such a grand piece of work they will still come back for more. Guarenteed. I do, however, think you have sufficiently justified your work. Between the phalanx formation thing for .81 (if I understood correctly) and the fact that we don't want this to be a "Rome rolls over the rest of the world" mod.

After my first 30 minutes of playing this mod when 0.8 came out I decided to put my full faith in the EB mod team to work out the kinks and come up with the best solutions for what I would confidently consider the best mod to date for RTW.

Show some faith guys. Just look what they've done with what is, in my opinion, an otherwise unplayable game in it's vanilla state.

I can't give you all enough Kudos.

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Originally Posted by tk-421

In melee Hoplitai Haploi don't stand much of a chance against Hastati, especially if they are in guard position and get surrounded.

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I tried a few more, all with Hoplites under human control. The pila casualties didn't alter much (a one and a couple two's), but removing Guard mode reduced the impact of flanking quite a bit. When I was on a hill charging down at the Hastati, i killed 20 and lost 72, which was much better. On level ground the effect was much less, killing 5 and losing 59. The big difference was armoring up and adding morale. A gold chevron hoplite with a bronze sword and shield was extremely competitive against raw hastati. I lost in the end, but killed 48 (losing 75).

The big difference in this battle seemed to be that Roman units have two extra officers - a general, a captain, and a standard bearer. My single General helped hold one flank steady, but their three were able to collapse the other and once those three Roman Officers got behind my men and started chopping away, it was impossible to overcome. It was a very interesting battle for a while though. I had lost almost 20 guys to their 5, but then began whittling away until the differential was only eight. The messages talked of victory for me, but the differential held even for another 20 losses, after which their officers collapsed my right flank, and victory fled.

I did a quick test and everything seems fine to me.

V8.0 - Unit Size 160

Two Volleys Then Attack Head On

Pre Marian Hastati

Battle #1

Fist Volley: 2 Hoplitai Dead
Second Volley: 1 Hoplitai Dead

Hastati Kills: 139
Hastati Remaining: 151

Hoplitai Kills: 14
Hoplitai Remaining: 22

Battle #2

First Volley: 1 Hopliti Dead
Second Volley: 3 Hopliti Dead

Hastati Kills: 125
Hastati Remaining: 149

Hoplitai Kills: 17
Hoplitai Remaining: 36

Marian

Battle #1

First Volley: 0 Hopliti Dead
Second Volley: 2 Hopliti Dead

Hastati Kills: 134
Hastati Remaining: 154

Hoplitai Kills: 11
Hoplitai Remaining: 27

Battle #2

First Volley 0 Hopliti Dead
Second Volley: 3 Hoplliti Dead

Hastati Kills: 110
Hastati Remaining: 155

Hoplitai Kills: 9
Hoplitai Remaining: 51


One Volley Then Attack Head On


Pre Marian Hastati

Battle #1

Fist Volley: 0 Hoplitai Dead

Hastati Kills: 143
Hastati Remaining: 149

Hoplitai Kills: 17
Hoplitai Remaining: 18

Battle #2

First Volley: 0 Hopliti Dead

Hastati Kills: 131
Hastati Remaining: 138

Hoplitai Kills: 29
Hoplitai Remaining: 30


Marian

Battle #1

First Volley: 2 Hopliti Dead

Hastati Kills: 132
Hastati Remaining: 154

Hoplitai Kills: 11
Hoplitai Remaining: 29

Battle #2

First Volley 1 Hopliti Dead

Hastati Kills: 98
Hastati Remaining: 149

Hoplitai Kills: 16
Hoplitai Remaining: 63

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kull

I'm not upset. It's just ho hum, another day of defending ourselves against baseless accusations. Somebody makes the bogus statement that pila don't kill ANY hoplites, and does anybody out here actually test it to see if it's true? Did you? Why of course not, it just validated your theory that our EDU is completely messed up.

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Wow, when did I say the EDU is completely messed up? For a team that makes a living on picking apart vocabularly of those who criticize, I'm disappointed in your usage. I'll write it off because I think you are upset.

The EDU is not completely messed up, but it has some major issues. First there are alot of errors. Second, I hate the way missle units are balanced, mostly because the balancing job does absolutely nothing to save us from the archer bug, and there is good ways to compensate for the archer bug, without archers being overwhemling.

Third, I hate the way elite units are. Some are just too powerful, particularly any unit with 2hp. Finally, cavalry is poorly balanced. Cataphracts are too powerful, particularly against other cavalry. Since they have armor all over, they can't see or move well, and another rider would easily be able to defeat them. Maybe you don't agree, doesn't really matter, but as Alexander the Pretty Good once said on the Guild about Vanilla "if you have to use strategy, you don't have enough elite units." That rings very true for EB. How many people went into a battle with great tactics only to lose to Gaesatae?

But did I test it? No. I didn't. Why? Because EB's edu text is currently in many pieces as I edit it, planning to put it back together for 0.81, and I don't have my CD with me.

So why did I believe it? I don't know how many times I've thrown a missle unit against a Hellenistic phalanx only to see no kills. I believe that at 1-2 men should die when 160 pila are thrown, if you are fighting a top-tier phalanx. Lesser phalanx's = more kills. So 2 deaths for 160 pila, isn't right.

Flame Away.

OK, it's clear now that Hoplitai Haploi are just waayyyyyy overpowered! When a Gold shield, Gold sword, triple Gold Chevron Hoplite takes on raw Hastati on the side of a cliff, the Hastati get annhilated. Final numbers were 73 dead Hastati, only 4 dead Hoplites. Back to drawing board, I guess! :laugh4:

https://img49.imageshack.us/img49/53...hastatihq2.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fallen851

The EDU text balancing is the worst part (which is why I'm rebalancing it...)of the wonderful mod in my opinion.

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Flame you? Why bother. Let your own words do the roasting. I'd say that "messed up" is a pretty good parapharase of that statement.

I wonder if there are any backup developers for EB once the current ones break down... You guys need a press secretary, like the former white house one who could make the press cry from frustration. That should ease some of the pain. Give him a ring, he might be available. ~:wacko:

My thought about this is I find it strange that generally arrows and javelins have the same damage. That may be because I started with RTR and it has a whole different arrow/javelin balance. I don't know much about the calculations behind these, so I'm really not fit to comment.

I think it is a compliment to the team that people have to go to such detail to try and find areas of weakness. Notice i didnt use the words fault or error here.

Sure every now and again someone will find something that needs tweaking, but generally I've seen bugger all found.

If people do want to report something strange......they should test it more than once before reacting as a rule and give clearer context. Just posting before they have reproduced the 'observation' at least twice is something that should be avoided.

I wouldn't expect a swathe of casualties from the Roman tactic, as the tactic in this case was to impair and disrupt the formation NOT kill swathes of hoplon. They did this so they could get close in and THEN destroy the phalanx.

I just think this is someone overreacting because they are passionate about something, just as the team are.

The problem was the tone of what was typed :) it came across in a non constructive manner that probably wasnt intended.

So guys...get back to .81 please...were desparate out here :whip:

According to another thread we had around here, the penetration strength of a heavy javelin was about 8,2mm of bronze.
(https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77958)
Despite what the number about arrow says, this one seems reasonable.

A hoplon shield was essentially a circle about 1m across, so the area covered was 0,785m^2. This would correspond to a volume of 7,850 cm^2* 0,82 cm = 6437 cm^3
Since density of bronze is approximately 8,3 grams per cubic centimeter, the weight of the shield would be approximately 53 kilograms, nearly twice the maximum reasonable weight of a soldiers' equipment.

Therefore, a heavy javelin should pierce through any reasonable shield with ease.

McHrozni

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kull

The big difference in this battle seemed to be that Roman units have two extra officers - a general, a captain, and a standard bearer. My single General helped hold one flank steady, but their three were able to collapse the other and once those three Roman Officers got behind my men and started chopping away, it was impossible to overcome.

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Do the officers have different stats then? I know the general does, but I thought that the standard bearer and captain shared stats with the rest of the unit.

Thanks for the laughs, Kull! :laugh4: :2thumbsup:

To me, more annoying still with phalanxs is the way that they can immediately turn around or to the side and present their spears that way, or higher-end units ( in EB pezhetairoi and above), are able to resist direct hits ( charges from cavalry or shock infantry) frm behinf, while engaged from the front. But that has more to do with the way the phalanx formation is coded in RTW engine than anything else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kugutsu

Do the officers have different stats then? I know the general does, but I thought that the standard bearer and captain shared stats with the rest of the unit.

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The same question was asked a couple of weeks ago, and the answer is that no-one really knows, but they almost certainly have multiple hitpoints, and a high lethality, which means every succesful hit is a kill. (I initially didn't believe the latter when QwertyMIDX told me, but after watching them in combat I must admit it's true.)

Out of interest: how do you know that generals have different stats?

Wow, didn't expect so many comments. Interesting to read what everybody has to say on this.

Orb: I was playing with Camillan hastati. I'm also using huge unit size. So it was 160 hastati vs. 160 hoplitai haploi. I set the hastati to fire at will, let them stand still, and let the hoplitai haploi approach them (they approach in a phalanx and hastati stand still, so the hastati have enough time for two volleys, also I didn't change the width of the formation). First volley was from a distance, the second was reasonably up close. But hey, even if they use hastae and not pila, they throw 160 x 2 at the haploi's, so there should be a realistic chance that some of the pila hit some haploi's in the legs, head or neck, no?

Besides that, from the description I read that hoplitai haploi are basically the poorest citizens levied into a phalanx. If you're a poor guy, wouldn't it be less likely for you to be able to afford such an excellent bronze shield which can ward off pila/hastae?

keravnos: I don't want to make life easier for the Romanii, but I thought that no casualties at all was another extreme.

EB developers: thank you very much for your attention to this and your explanations. I did not mean to be annoying and whine about this trivial issue, if that's how you perceive it. I was just wondering for the reason the game behaves this way. It saddened me when I read the posts that some of you are so annoyed by this, I didn't mean to. Let me make this clear, I think you are all doing a great job and hold you in high respect. My question about pila vs. phalanx was just a question, not a complaint. If the EB team thinks it's fine that it causes no casualties I'm ok with that.

Kull: I can assure you that I'm telling the truth, I'm not lying. If you want evidence, I can capture the custom battle in a movie.

One more thing to consider, I've also tested hastati's pila versus phalangitai deuteroi. It's the same story with the phalangitai deuteroi, no casualties. However, phalangitai deuteroi have a shield which is about twice as small and only covers their abdomen.

http://www.svanloon.nl/eb_movie.mp4

This is the evidence for 0 casualties. I recorded this with Fraps, Fraps is crap and for some reason it stopped capturing at two points in the movie, so I had to start a new capture and then join three avi files together later.

It's encoded in H.264/MPEG4, if you can't play it use the Combined Community Codec Pack. Though it's 10 MB, which might not seem much, please go easy on my webhosting (i.e. don't download it by the hundreds).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by F for Fragging

Kull: I can assure you that I'm telling the truth, I'm not lying. If you want evidence, I can capture the custom battle in a movie.

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I never accused you of lying, but I still feel the assertion (i.e no kills) is "bogus", simply because it wasn't tested multiple times to ensure that you weren't looking at a statistical anomaly. I ran 7 different games and suffered hoplite casualties in every pila attack except the one with the gold shield guys (which was mostly a joke, but also I was so mad at continually losing to hastati I just wanted to find a way to beat them into the earth! :laugh4:).

And even that silly test pointed out that other factors are at play here. Armor and Experience, certainly. But also things like type of battlefield. Was it level or hilly? My point is that before you make an all-encompassing assertion, you really need to test it out. If the statement had been, "really low kill rates", then I'm CERTAIN the tone would have been different. But you said "zero", and then others jumped on board, and when the Team tested and found it was "not zero", well, there you have it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fallen851

Third, I hate the way elite units are. Some are just too powerful, particularly any unit with 2hp. Finally, cavalry is poorly balanced. Cataphracts are too powerful, particularly against other cavalry. Since they have armor all over, they can't see or move well, and another rider would easily be able to defeat them. Maybe you don't agree, doesn't really matter, but as Alexander the Pretty Good once said on the Guild about Vanilla "if you have to use strategy, you don't have enough elite units." That rings very true for EB. How many people went into a battle with great tactics only to lose to Gaesatae?

---

I've done a bunch of tests before. My saka cataphracts were always murdered by iberian lancers, despite me charging. The most kills I got was 26ish. Over 8 tests, I averaged about 10. So no, not all cataphracts are overpowered. Not even the parthians heavies are imo, I've beaten them jsut surround and charge they fall like flies. Also there is only 1 unit with 2 hps. And Gaesatae are weak, I don't know why everyone whines about them. Just hit them with archers/slingers and javeliens first and normal infantry is just as good as them. Or hit them with a heavy cav charge, they die like everyone else.

Also how would you change it so they still have a ton of armour, but are weak in meele vs other cavalry? And I've never seen anything saying they were bad in meele vs other cavalry, only that they are GOOD vs other cavalry.

AFAIK all the ironmongery they wore had a tendency to make catas kinda clumsy, and the often somewhat excessive protection to the face doubtless caused air circulation and situational awareness issues. In a freewheeling cavalry melee this could obviously become a major problem - but then those guys fought in very close and solid order specifically to avoid such situations in the first place. Lack of agility and starkly restricted peripheral vision aren't much of a problem if the opposition can't flank you to begin with, right ?

There's no shortage of instances where entire cataphract squadrons were flanked and broken of course, but really, what cavalry formation does survive getting hit in the flank or rear in any case ?

You cannot badger these guys about these little issues when they have obviously put in a lot of time to make this mod, which Im playing now instead of MTW2, you get this for free, you cant ask for more, if you feel that the javlins are not powerful enough, then edit the unit file and increase the value to your satisfaction.

None of that matters to a few folks zonks. It makes coming to the public forum a lot less interesting to me though. My interest in constantly defending the mod from post after post of complaints from about two or three people total sure has dwindled.

Just out of curiosity: are there any other units that used the RTW phalanx in 0.80 but wich get the same make-over as Hoplitai Haploi?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paullus

Historically inaccurate? We can talk reconstruction, sure, but I haven't seen the "historical" argument yet...

That said, I agree that hoplitai haploi shouldn't be impervious to the pila, though I suspect (and someone who knows game mechanics better than I should confirm or deny this) the pila lower morale and make the battle end more quickly.

You could test this by doing that custom battle twice, once with the legionaries firing pila before impact, once with them waiting until impact to begin sword combat. See if the battle lasts longer the second time. I'd wager it does.

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You're right. I was wrong to say it's historically inaccurate, but it is unrealistic.

Quote:

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Apart from that: may I take it that the hoplon shield was coated with layer of bronze? If so, then there's just one more question to answer: could contemporary arrows penetrate such shields?

If not then you may conclude that the pila wouldn't have hurt those guys very much: a pilum would need far more kinetic energy to penetrate the shield than an arrow would - and a skilled archer can 'provide' his arrows with much more kinetic energy per mass than any javelin throwing guy is able to 'provide' for his javelins.

You'd have much more succes 'striking' those guys at their helmets...

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I don't know for sure, because I don't have any hard data to back that up, but I would imagine that arrows could pierce the hoplon, but not penetrate it. And as far as hindering the soldier's shield, piercing is all the pila needs to do.

Quote:

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I'm not upset. It's just ho hum, another day of defending ourselves against baseless accusations. Somebody makes the bogus statement that pila don't kill ANY hoplites, and does anybody out here actually test it to see if it's true? Did you? Why of course not, it just validated your theory that our EDU is completely messed up. And almost everyone else just immediately assumed the statement was true. "What pila can't kill any hoplites? Well EB has gotten it wrong again!" What a load of horse hooey.

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To be fair, others came out do defend not having any hoplites killed by two volleys of pila as well, which is what drove me to respond.

Quote:

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And TA is correct to remind people that we are under no obligation to provide ANY answers to ANYBODY out here. And certainly not when it is couched as a demand ("so where are those stat people anyway?!?!")

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I think EB is by far the best RTW mod out there, and definitely the closest to being historically accurate, and I derive a lot of enjoyment from it. Is it so wrong to want to make it as accurate as possible?

Quote:

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Yeah, I got ticked off, and I still am. I just posted that we (talking to the other EB members who had posted) should let the stat guys answer it - and immediately (within two minutes) our new friend posted "well what is their reasoning?". If they don't get around to answering something (not just them, but anyone) inside EB after a couple of days, it's not a really big deal, but we ask for something again then. But two freaking minutes is too long to wait - there had to be a response "well..." within that two minute window. If I say we will let the stat guys respond, then posting TWO MINUTES LATER "well what is their reasoning" is going to really irritate me and is not going to get them to post.

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The reason I posted "what is their reasoning" is because you said:

Quote:

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Let the stat guys handle this. Not like this hasn't been raised before.

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So I thought by you saying "it's not like this hasn't been raised before" that it was a topic that you were familiar with and could explain because it had been brought up several times before. I'm sorry if it sounded like badgering.

Quote:

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None of that matters to a few folks zonks. It makes coming to the public forum a lot less interesting to me though. My interest in constantly defending the mod from post after post of complaints from about two or three people total sure has dwindled.

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I find it very ironic that you say in the FAQ that:

Quote:

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The project was born over a year ago, when the thought was that the team could provide as much historical information as possible to help CA portray the barbarian factions as more than just a bunch of drooling, naked neanderthals. When it seemed clear that CA wasn't accepting outside help, the team became determined to turn this research into a mod.

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And here people are trying to provide more information about historical accuracy and you get very defensive about it.

Quote:

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Just out of curiosity: are there any other units that used the RTW phalanx in 0.80 but wich get the same make-over as Hoplitai Haploi?

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I may be wrong, but the result may be hugely influenced by the RTW Phalanx settings.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

But it's clearly not realistic to have two volleys of pila result in no casualties, and isn't the goal of EB to provide historical accuracy?

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Dude, over the past few weeks it seems as though you have begun to systematically question the historical accuracy of every aspect of the mod, including our base assumptions and some hard decisions we had to make related to the limitations of the game engine. If "historical accuracy" means "what MeinPanzer says," then no, the goal of EB is not to create what you say is right.

We have explained the reasons why we made the choices we made. You are free to disagree with them, but if you truly care about making this more historically accurate and want to pitch in, I highly recommend you work on how you are presenting this information. The manner in which you are presenting your case appears to be aggravating some of the team members, and aggravating those who you are trying to convince generally means you have already lost the argument. Check out the "important advice on feedback" in my .sig as that explains it a bit more and in-depth.

I'd pitch in on the historicity stuff but personally I'm more of a systems guy. I like to make things go. I know that the difference between an argive and an argyle is that only one is a type of sock, and depending on the time of day you ask I have a 50/50 chance of being correct. I've seen huge arguments over whether a type of legging was worn by a particular bodyguard unit in the 3rd or 2nd century BC, and could probably make all the participants very sad were I to say "the bodyguard units differ by faction?" which I nearly did after nine months as an EB member. However, I'm pretty comfortable messing around with the guts of the building structure and the various game engine limitations we have on building complexes.

My point is that EB is a lot of different things to a lot of different people on the team. We aren't monolithic and are at varying levels of knowledge about a lot of different things. A lot of the stuff you're asking about should really be answered by the people who created those units or those processes, and as some of those folks currently unavailable due to travel or real-life non-Internet-capable job stuff you might not be able to get an instant answer. Until that happens, beating the horse to death isn't going to resolve anything, no matter how soon you want to get an answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

And here people are trying to provide more information about historical accuracy and you get very defensive about it.

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It's all about presentation, mang.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blacksnail

Dude, over the past few weeks it seems as though you have begun to systematically question the historical accuracy of every aspect of the mod, including our base assumptions and some hard decisions we had to make related to the limitations of the game engine. If "historical accuracy" means "what MeinPanzer says," then no, the goal of EB is not to create what you say is right.

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I've only questioned what I've found to vary from the historical record, so it's not so much "what I say" as "what I've seen in archaeological evidence and read in primary sources and what that says."

Quote:

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We have explained the reasons why we made the choices we made. You are free to disagree with them, but if you truly care about making this more historically accurate and want to pitch in, I highly recommend you work on how you are presenting this information. The manner in which you are presenting your case appears to be aggravating some of the team members, and aggravating those who you are trying to convince generally means you have already lost the argument. Check out the "important advice on feedback" in my .sig as that explains it a bit more and in-depth.

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In this case, the argument was a misunderstanding. The only reason I responded questioning EB's results were after this comment:

Quote:

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Hoplitai comes from hoplo or the round shield. Made from Bronze reinforced from within with single or mostly double skin, mostly that of cow. Arrows couldn't penetrate it. Pilae didn't either. Pilae worked on the wooden shields with the iron boss that Lusotannan, Iberians, Averni etc, but rarely on hopla. It would have to be a very strong, really near and applied to exactly the right angle to achieve armor piercing status.

EB's results are fine.

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Which was very clearly wrong.

Quote:

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I'd pitch in on the historicity stuff but personally I'm more of a systems guy. I like to make things go. I know that the difference between an argive and an argyle is that only one is a type of sock, and depending on the time of day you ask I have a 50/50 chance of being correct. I've seen huge arguments over whether a type of legging was worn by a particular bodyguard unit in the 3rd or 2nd century BC, and could probably make all the participants very sad were I to say "the bodyguard units differ by faction?" which I nearly did after nine months as an EB member. However, I'm pretty comfortable messing around with the guts of the building structure and the various game engine limitations we have on building complexes.

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Fair enough- everyone has their strong points and contributes in different ways.

Quote:

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My point is that EB is a lot of different things to a lot of different people on the team. We aren't monolithic and are at varying levels of knowledge about a lot of different things. A lot of the stuff you're asking about should really be answered by the people who created those units or those processes, and as some of those folks currently unavailable due to travel or real-life non-Internet-capable job stuff you might not be able to get an instant answer. Until that happens, beating the horse to death isn't going to resolve anything, no matter how soon you want to get an answer.

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I'm simply responding to those who respond to my questions, and by looking at the "Seleukid Hetairoi" thread, I'd say there are many on the boards here who are prepared to answer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bonny

I may be wrong, but the result may be hugely influenced by the RTW Phalanx settings.

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Camillan Hastati vs Classical hoplites: 5 battles with me playing hastati, 5 battles with me as hoplites.

Me Hastati: 6- 20 dead hoplites (+ morale impact) from 2 throws. (Hoplites charging)
Me Hoplites 4-10 dead hoplites from 1 throw. (Hoplites standing still with shield raised).

I dont think you are wrong..:beam:

Classical hoplites are a little buggered in the current build. Some odd stuff going on there, still trying to work out exactly what's going on.

Quote:

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-This for me is unrealistic. The phalanx was a very static formation and the shield didnt cover all the body. So if the pila cant penetrate shield, why they dont do damage on other parts?? ( pila can hit other parts of body like the heads not cover by shield, and a pilum in the head (also with helmet) is not a nice thing

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The rome total war engine works by applying the shield value in a direction (front and apparently left though I get more casualties from hits to the left so maybe not left)

It doesnt count how much of the body is covered, it expects the modder to work that out with an appropriate defensive value (e.g 1 for a really tiny shield and 5 for a full body one is how this game (EB) seems to be set).

So even if the shield is tiny the game thinks it is protecting the entire body, just very penetratably.

So there is no way to simulate bodu parts being hit)

Quote:

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-for the second - yes, it could, but chance was rather small. Some minimal increase in attack may be considered but it have to be very carefully balanced, to prevent turning romans into RPG infantry

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Yeah a bunch of briton headhurlers who can then punch it out fairly well would be terrifying.

Quote:

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-That said, I agree that hoplitai haploi shouldn't be impervious to the pila, though I suspect (and someone who knows game mechanics better than I should confirm or deny this) the pila lower morale and make the battle end more quickly.

You could test this by doing that custom battle twice, once with the legionaries firing pila before impact, once with them waiting until impact to begin sword combat. See if the battle lasts longer the second time. I'd wager it does.

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The Pila dont lower morale from experience mainly fighting the romans, however the pila volley in close combat will shorten a battle as up that close the pila cause very good casualties, this is offset by your men being more vulnerable while reloading and aiming though.

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-To me, more annoying still with phalanxs is the way that they can immediately turn around or to the side and present their spears that way, or higher-end units ( in EB pezhetairoi and above), are able to resist direct hits ( charges from cavalry or shock infantry) frm behinf, while engaged from the front. But that has more to do with the way the phalanx formation is coded in RTW engine than anything else.

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A well trained phalax could present its arms quickly in any direction, watch medievel reconstructionists doing pike drills and look for yourself, the actions involved wont be much different.

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-Third, I hate the way elite units are. Some are just too powerful, particularly any unit with 2hp. Finally, cavalry is poorly balanced. Cataphracts are too powerful, particularly against other cavalry. Since they have armor all over, they can't see or move well, and another rider would easily be able to defeat them. Maybe you don't agree, doesn't really matter, but as Alexander the Pretty Good once said on the Guild about Vanilla "if you have to use strategy, you don't have enough elite units." That rings very true for EB. How many people went into a battle with great tactics only to lose to Gaesatae?

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1) There are few 2hp units in the game (Geasati and tinderland (something like that) hillmen are the only ones I know of)

And Gaesati are p*ss easy, hell a triarii phalanx with a flank from some principes destroyed a full strength gaesati unit a hour or two ago on very hard.

2) Cataphracts will destroy and other cavalry they can catch (all that armour will make them slow) simply due to thier very heavy armour and skill at arms.
Plus they didnt always have armour all over, some cataphracts only had front facing armour (to save wieght I suppose)

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-The problem was the tone of what was typed :) it came across in a non constructive manner that probably wasnt intended.

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Yes I can vouch for that :/

Quote:

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-Oh yeah, sure it is not exactly accurate, but then again is a phalanx made up of 240 men at most quite... historical accurate? The few kills involved would be dwarfed by the scale adjustments needed...

If not then you may conclude that the pila wouldn't have hurt those guys very much: a pilum would need far more kinetic energy to penetrate the shield than an arrow would - and a skilled archer can 'provide' his arrows with much more kinetic energy per mass than any javelin throwing guy is able to 'provide' for his javelins.

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256 men (a syntegma) was the macedonian phalanx equivelent of a modern company from what ive heard so 240 men is about right.

And not really, a pila is heavier than an arrow, so even though it can't be thrown as fast the force is still generally superior to modern arrows, and certainly to contemporary arrows, and the contact area isnt much bigger (it may not be bigger at all) so a pila will penetrate more.

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-Ancient hoplites, especially those in Thermopylae despised archery and archers, as they couldn't really be hurt by arrows, especially when in phallanx style they interlocked their shields(Hopla).

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Quite simply not true, hiding behind the aspis would lessen casualties but they are still vulnerable.

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-The "heavy" Argive shields you mention are almost definitely parade shields. The weight of such full shields would have been prohibitive on the battlefield (even for hoplites used to carrying a full bronze panoply). The norm, at least according to the archaeological record, was for Argive shields to be coated in a fairly thin sheet of bronze.

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Yes from what ive seen from hoplite info sites and whatnot the shield was always made of wood and would have either leather, bronze fabric or sometimes paint covering on the front side of it depending on available funds, current trends and other things.

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-I wouldn't trust the penetration figures for a scutum when discussing Argive shields; scuta weren't faced with bronze, after all.

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The bronze from everything ive seen would only be a really really thin layer, so I dont really know how much effect it would have, not much though would be a guess.

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-The big difference in this battle seemed to be that Roman units have two extra officers - a general, a captain, and a standard bearer. My single General helped hold one flank steady, but their three were able to collapse the other and once those three Roman Officers got behind my men and started chopping away, it was impossible to overcome. It was a very interesting battle for a while though. I had lost almost 20 guys to their 5, but then began whittling away until the differential was only eight. The messages talked of victory for me, but the differential held even for another 20 losses, after which their officers collapsed my right flank, and victory fled.

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I think what difficulty he is on will matter more to be frank, I tried on VH and got the same results hes talking about and has a massacred hastati mainple.

But when i tried on medium I got a few less kills than people here say I should get and it was a closer fight (130 something hastatii left after routing the phalanx)

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-The same question was asked a couple of weeks ago, and the answer is that no-one really knows, but they almost certainly have multiple hitpoints, and a high lethality, which means every succesful hit is a kill. (I initially didn't believe the latter when QwertyMIDX told me, but after watching them in combat I must admit it's true.)

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Ive always noticed my flag bearers and officers dieing about as quick as all the other units myself.

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-There's no shortage of instances where entire cataphract squadrons were flanked and broken of course, but really, what cavalry formation does survive getting hit in the flank or rear in any case ?

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Please state one as I dont know of any, dont get me wrong i know its possible I just dont know of any and want to learn.

The Palmyrenes immediately spring to mind.

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Originally Posted by HumphreysCraig00

The bronze from everything ive seen would only be a really really thin layer, so I dont really know how much effect it would have, not much though would be a guess.

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The bronze probably would have been close to as thick as a helmet, so it would probably provide similar defensive strength.

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Originally Posted by HumphreysCraig00

Please state one as I dont know of any, dont get me wrong i know its possible I just dont know of any and want to learn.

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a good example of a squadron of kataphraktoi flanked and demolished by foot soldiers is in one of the wars of the Romans against the Armenians. I have a big assignment due tomorrow, so I can't look it up, but maybe someone else will point out the source. Sorry that's not much help cheers!

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Originally Posted by paullus

a good example of a squadron of kataphraktoi flanked and demolished by foot soldiers is in one of the wars of the Romans against the Armenians. I have a big assignment due tomorrow, so I can't look it up, but maybe someone else will point out the source. Sorry that's not much help cheers!

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Tigranocerta or Artaxata in 69 BC maybe?

yeah, i think so, i just don't recall which.

Tigranakert is the battle Paullus is talking about, I suppose. Appian and Plutarch are the ones that mention the campaing, though I don't feel like going after the exact quotes.

EDIT: Livy might have something on it too.

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Originally Posted by MeinPanzer

The bronze probably would have been close to as thick as a helmet, so it would probably provide similar defensive strength.

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I had got it in my mind that it would be fairly thinner than a helmet from somewhere, cant remember where though, incorrect informarion floods easily into my little brain :/...

I will look up those battles after ive had a couple of hours nap.

-an aside

Its funny, RTW's ai is semi retarded when using phalanxes uphill so im getting constant heriocs as epirus

-another aside

How do I change the word below my name from member, as I want to change it to a dick joke, when I think of a decent one.

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Originally Posted by paullus

yeah, i think so, i just don't recall which.

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This is from Plutarch, Life of Lucullus 28, on Tigranocerta:

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Saying this, and bidding his men be of good courage, he crossed the river, and led the way in person against the enemy. He wore a steel breastplate of glittering scales, and a tasselled cloak, and at once let his sword flash forth from its scabbard, indicating that they must forthwith come to close quarters with men who fought with long range missiles, and eliminate, by the rapidity of their onset, the space in which archery would be effective. 2. But when he saw that the mail-clad horsemen, on whom the greatest reliance was placed, were stationed at the foot of a considerable hill which was crowned by a broad and level space, and that the approach to this was a matter of only four stadia, and neither rough nor steep, he ordered his Thracian and Gallic horsemen to attack the enemy in the flank, and to parry their long spears with their own short swords. 3. (Now the sole resource of the mail-clad horsemen is their long spear, and they have none other whatsoever, either in defending themselves or attacking their enemies, owing to the weight and rigidity of their armour; in this they are, as it were, immured.) Then he himself, with two cohorts, hastened eagerly towards the hill, his soldiers following with all their might, because they saw him ahead of them in armour, enduring all the fatigue of a foot-soldier, and pressing his way along. Arrived at the top, and standing in the most conspicuous spot, he cried with a loud voice, "The day is ours, the day is ours, my fellow soldiers!" 4. With these words, he led his men against the mail-clad horsemen, ordering them not to hurl their javelins yet, but taking each his own man, to smite the enemy's legs and thighs, which are the only parts of these mail-clad horsemen left exposed. However, there was no need of this mode of fighting, for the enemy did not await the Romans, but, with loud cries and in most disgraceful flight, they hurled themselves and their horses, with all their weight, upon the ranks of their own infantry, before it had so much as begun to fight, and so all those tens of thousands were defeated without the infliction of a wound or the sight of blood. 5. But the great slaughter began at once when they fled, or rather tried to fly, for they were prevented from really doing so by the closeness and depth of their own ranks.

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A well trained phalax could present its arms quickly in any direction, watch medievel reconstructionists doing pike drills and look for yourself, the actions involved wont be much different.

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While fighting at the same time with an enemy at the front or the sides ? Don't really think so... Besides, why do you think protecting the flanks of the phalanx ( or whatever battleline you want, any age) was / is so important ?

In part I can understand this, as a way to lessen the AI shortcomings which can't hold a line together or protect its flanks adequately, but in some cases this gets a bit exxagerated with higher end phalanx units blocks fighting for minutes against enemies on all sides.

Besides, the basically square Medieval pike formations were designed for omnidirectional combat to begin with.

Wow, what thread. Are pila useless? Are hoplitai overpowered? Blah blah.
Me, I am grateful for a nice mod and never question the reason or stats of EB, simply because I enjoy JUST playing and not looking for "how many hoplitai were killed by volley of pila".

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Originally Posted by Tretii

Wow, what thread. Are pila useless? Are hoplitai overpowered? Blah blah.
Me, I am grateful for a nice mod and never question the reason or stats of EB, simply because I enjoy JUST playing and not looking for "how many hoplitai were killed by volley of pila".

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You must have really enjoyed vanilla RTW then :laugh4:

Anyway, most tests here seem to get about 1-2 kills for the first volley, that isn't so bad is it?

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While fighting at the same time with an enemy at the front or the sides ? Don't really think so... Besides, why do you think protecting the flanks of the phalanx ( or whatever battleline you want, any age) was / is so important ?
In part I can understand this, as a way to lessen the AI shortcomings which can't hold a line together or protect its flanks adequately, but in some cases this gets a bit exxagerated with higher end phalanx units blocks fighting for minutes against enemies on all sides

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mostly true...
although the ''higher end'' initially means that they would fight pretty much to the end