Best Muslim heavy cavalry?

I've been doing a lot of searching on the forum to try and get some views on what people think is the best Muslim cavalry (as apparently the in-game stats are not a wholly accurate representation of cavalry strength in-game). Based on a variety of posts I read, I came to the following conclusions:

1. Muslims don't have as much variety of useful heavy cavalry as Catholic factions
2. Catholic factions are pretty much spoiled for choice, with the shield bug making even their entry level cavalry (feudal knights, mailed knights) pretty devastating, not to mention the top of the line Gendarmes, Lancers, Gothic Knights etc
3. The "best" Muslim cavalry seem to be the Moorish Christian Guard?

These conclusions may be incorrect as I'm fairly new to the forum, so I would appreciate some guidance. I'm just finishing a game as the Danes and am planning to play a Muslim faction - preferably the Turks as I was a big fan of theirs in MTW. I realise that tactics will have to change as the strength of the Muslim armies generally are in mobility and versatility (I used to call the Turk units "hybrid" units in MTW as they could fulfill both ranged and melee functions) and I know how to use missile cavalry to wear down an opposing force.

But I would love to know what you guys think is the best Muslim heavy cavalry for mowing down enemy infantry and punching holes in an enemy line. As the Danes I got by fine with Feudal Knights as the staple of my cavalry. Are there comparable units in the Muslim world?

Cheers for any feedback.

Turkey's Quatakulu(SP?) is the best heavy calvary for the muslim faction, high attck + high defense with a AP mace for melee, but the charge bonus is relatively low compare to the knights from the west.

well i dont know the answer to your question but if u r looking for heavy cavalry to be your main force in a muslim faction u gonna find it hard to beat good western armies. the main strngth of the muslim factions is light fast units. most of their cavalry are pretty fast as well. read some guides on how to play muslim armies. muslim heavy cavalry is no match head to head with western heavy cavalry.

In the late era, Moors has Christian Guard, Egypt has Royal Mamluks and Turks have Quapukulus. Quapukulu's stats seem to be best but if you compare them in a custom battle, it will be a close victory.
Muslim heavy cavalries could not reach the level of the Christian ones and Quapukulus can easily be dominated by Norse War Clerics(you played Danes huh?)

True but he was right the Christian guard kicks ass :smash:

Although the decision in playing with muslims will be achived with fast missile cavalry. if you enable skirmish mode, no christin cavalry can catch you :laugh4:

From my own experience, while these cav may not be heavy, they were the best overall (extended combat and charging):

Mamluk
Arab Cavalry
Desert Cavalry / jinetes

Note that most of those are actually light/medium cav, but I found them to last quite a bit longer than christian guards or sipahi lancers or tuaregs

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Originally Posted by zstajerski

True but he was right the Christian guard kicks ass :smash:

Although the decision in playing with muslims will be achived with fast missile cavalry. if you enable skirmish mode, no christin cavalry can catch you :laugh4:

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Doesn't apply to the Moors, IMO. The only missile cavalry they have are jaavelin armed. While they certainly are good, they're not of the same level as real horse archers like the turkomans or mamlukes.

The best tactic I've found with them is a standard hammer and anvil, with spears forming the anvil and cavalry the hammer. However, that may change soon, as I'll soon be able to steadily produce late units...

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Doesn't apply to the Moors, IMO. The only missile cavalry they have are jaavelin armed. While they certainly are good, they're not of the same level as real horse archers like the turkomans or mamlukes.

The best tactic I've found with them is a standard hammer and anvil, with spears forming the anvil and cavalry the hammer. However, that may change soon, as I'll soon be able to steadily produce late units...

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actually the javeline armed HA are pretty good at taking out hevily armourd knights. just keep them off fire at will so they dont empty thir quiveres inot a worthless peasent unit. and once they empty their javeleins they are f\st enough to get round any enemy for a rear charge.

That's true, crpcarrot, what I mean is that bowarmed horse archers are capable of taking on any enemy, while javelins are limited.

I've tended to favour much lighter cavalry while playing as Egypt (Yet to try the other Islamic factions). They may lack the hitting power and armour of the heavies, but they make up for it with speed and stamina. This is especially so in the dry sandy areas of the middle east.

All the armour in the world is no use if you can't get that unit where it's needed, or to still have high stamina when the enemy starts to break. And let's not forget how much cheaper light cavalry is. Two light/medium units are far more flexible than one heavy unit from my experience. Always play to the strengths of your faction, and with the Islamic factions that strength isn't heavy cavalry.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Doesn't apply to the Moors, IMO. The only missile cavalry they have are jaavelin armed. While they certainly are good, they're not of the same level as real horse archers like the turkomans or mamlukes.

The best tactic I've found with them is a standard hammer and anvil, with spears forming the anvil and cavalry the hammer. However, that may change soon, as I'll soon be able to steadily produce late units...

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hmmm moors dont get camel gunners? :stupido2:

i dont see many ai armies with lots of uber units, muslim cav isnt so bad ~:handball:

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I realise that tactics will have to change as the strength of the Muslim armies generally are in mobility and versatility (I used to call the Turk units "hybrid" units in MTW as they could fulfill both ranged and melee functions) and I know how to use missile cavalry to wear down an opposing force.

But I would love to know what you guys think is the best Muslim heavy cavalry for mowing down enemy infantry and punching holes in an enemy line.

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... And let's not forget how much cheaper light cavalry is. Two light/medium units are far more flexible than one heavy unit from my experience. Always play to the strengths of your faction, and with the Islamic factions that strength isn't heavy cavalry.

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There seems to be a very clear understanding of the issues here. The question is not "How do I make Muslim Armies like Western ones?" but "How do I get a powerful charge unit in case I need it?"

Consider the mercenary route.

It's not an overpowering unit, but there seems to be an ample supply of mercenary Armenian Cavalry in Asia Minor. They are a very good knight-type unit with a powerful charge and they suffer less of a heat penalty than regular knights.

The best knight unit I've ever employed in my Egyptian campaigns are Serbian Mecenary knights hired in the Balkans after I spread past Constantinople.

As for home-grown varieties, I'm with LordKhaine. This is from my Egyptian unit guide, about Arab Cavalry:

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Although described as light cavalry, look at the stats: Attack and defense are each one point below the values of a Western mailed knight. Charge is much weaker -- mailed knights have a value of 6 there -- but Arab Cavalry costs only three-fourths as much to make and 75 florins less per turn to maintain. Put another way, recruiting an English mailed knight unit and using it at full strength for 10 turns costs 3,180 florins. The same calculation for AC is 2,260. Spend the difference on upgrades, or you can build and maintain 140 Desert Cavalry for 10 turns for the cost of 100 mailed knights.

What’s more, line up AC and MK’s against each other in custom battles at medium difficulty on grassy fields. You’ll find that AC survive the initial charge quite well and seem to do better in melee. Perhaps this is another animation “attack per minute” situation. I don’t know. I do know, however, that the AC have a good chance of winning even after the mailed knights get a numbers advantage. Most of these artificial little battles will depend upon whose commander gets killed first. It’s a close-enough match that, in a regular battle, a couple of javelin volleys from nearby Desert Cavalry should be decisive.

Which leads me, finally, to two main points about Egyptian melee cavalry of all categories. If you are fighting other cavalry, get Egyptians of all types into melee and keep them there. If the other guy tries to pull back and reform for another charge, don’t let him. The second point that became clear during campaigns: Melee cavalry and Desert Cavalry make a good little combo. Russian Boyars Sons are better, combining the virtues of effective javelin attack and good melee in one unit, but this isn’t a Russian unit guide.

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Doug is right about the like of cavalry with good charges in the levant, but the christian guard and the dismounted christian guard of the moors are like the knights in Europe that are on steroids. They are simply awesome

Hi all,

Most Cav vs. Cav tests i've done usually result in Royal Mamluks coming out on top over every other cavalry unit, im sure that the stronger charge of western knights is better vs. infantry of any sort, but doesnt seem to make much of a difference when charging other heavy cavalry. im pretty convinced royal mamluks are the best anti-cavalry cavalry.

What if there was Hashishim heavy cavalry...lol

-ick

christian guard and the BG units seem to do a pretty good job that u wont need any other heavy cavalry for the moors.

subati is right camel gunners are awesome and since they are on the camels they can shoot over a defensive line of infantry. and their range is pretty good as well.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Doesn't apply to the Moors, IMO. The only missile cavalry they have are jaavelin armed. While they certainly are good, they're not of the same level as real horse archers like the turkomans or mamlukes.

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What about Camel Gunners? Don't go to war without them!

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Originally Posted by derfinsterling

What about Camel Gunners? Don't go to war without them!

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i said that :beam:

scroll up :yes:

Dont the camel gunners have crazy long range?

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Originally Posted by Xdeathfire

Dont the camel gunners have crazy long range?

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Yes, as far as a longbow's.

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Originally Posted by Seyduna

In the late era, Moors has Christian Guard, Egypt has Royal Mamluks and Turks have Quapukulus. Quapukulu's stats seem to be best but if you compare them in a custom battle, it will be a close victory.
Muslim heavy cavalries could not reach the level of the Christian ones and Quapukulus can easily be dominated by Norse War Clerics(you played Danes huh?)

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I played the Danes - I actually had some decent (for me) cavalry - I had Feudal Knights as my staple, then occasionally Chivalric Knights if I could afford them, and those Norse War Clerics were great as I could train them in cities and they were useful as long as I flanked the enemy because they were AP. But before all that I had the Huscarls - not the greatest at the charge, but a "mini-me" version of the Clerics. :yes:

Doug, speaking of merc units, what are those Kwarizmian Cavalry like? I thought of hiring them when I got to the Holy Land as the Danes, but they were so bloody expensive I didn't bother. Are they any good?

Cheers for all the replies, btw - they've been very helpful.

EDIT: A question about camels - in RTW (and MTW) they had a huge advantage over horses, to the point where if I used some cheap Bedouin Warriors in melee against Equites or Roman Cavalry or even Macedonian cavalry they could do some serious damage (as long as the camels weren't charged). When I was playing as the Armenians my cataphract archers were pretty unstoppable. Is it the same in M2TW?

i'm playing th moors but havent really used any camels except for the gunners.

In MTW camels also had a penalty in temperate climates hence i didnt build any of them in france. dunno if the penalty still apllies. one thing i did notice is camels die very quickly against spears.

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Doug, speaking of merc units, what are those Kwarizmian Cavalry like? I thought of hiring them when I got to the Holy Land as the Danes, but they were so bloody expensive I didn't bother. Are they any good?

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Yes they are good, basically slightly less powerful versions of the Royal Mamluks/Quapukulus

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... what are those Kwarizmian Cavalry like? I thought of hiring them when I got to the Holy Land as the Danes, but they were so bloody expensive I didn't bother. Are they any good?

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Think of them as late-model Kataphracts. They have a decent charge but actually do much better in prolonged melee.

Sounds like Lusted had better luck with them than I did. I used them a lot in fighting the Mongols, which may have given me my less-than-thrilled impression. They were a strong melee unit and I needed everything I could get to have them, but they seemed like they would be more useful against Western infantry than agile Eastern missile troops.

Well i did generally use them to fight Crusading armies full of heavy infantry and they are very useful against them. with the Mongols i just sat it out behind my city walls and beat back their assaults.

Yea, the armenian cav and the kwarizmian cav may cost alot, but are nearly equivalent in my mind to the feudal knights

I agree regarding the Armenian and Kwarizmian cavalries, they are very useful for muslim factions, especially when you start coming up against opponents who wield similar weaponry. Also to note, in my campaign with Turkey, once I got into the provinces of modern day Serbia & Montenegro, I was able to recruit mercenary Serbian Knights which were also very useful. I think they're actually the best heavy cavalry that I have been able to recruit so far with muslims.

Mongol Khan's Guard. :laugh4: Since Mongols are Muslim they should be counted too...lol

I agree that Kwarizmian Cavalry pack major whoop-arse on their Catholic equivilants. However they are limited in number and can't be used extensively.

Christian guard are arguably the best there is to offer. However they're pretty hard to get as you have to climb up the tech tree, and one may not have the time for this if nasty crusades are bearing down on you.

Well. I do miss the Sipahi of the Porte units from MTW. If they were placed here in M2TW they would most certainly be the best the Arabs have to offer.

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Originally Posted by KHPike

Mongol Khan's Guard. :laugh4: Since Mongols are Muslim they should be counted too...lol

I agree that Kwarizmian Cavalry pack major whoop-arse on their Catholic equivilants. However they are limited in number and can't be used extensively.

Christian guard are arguably the best there is to offer. However they're pretty hard to get as you have to climb up the tech tree, and one may not have the time for this if nasty crusades are bearing down on you.

Well. I do miss the Sipahi of the Porte units from MTW. If they were placed here in M2TW they would most certainly be the best the Arabs have to offer.

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What about the normal Sipahi Lancers? Are they any good at charging and breaking an enemy line?

Hmm. They're not bad either. I haven't played as Turkey yet, but from my battles with those units they can cause decent trouble.

Sipahi of the porte are turkish, not arabs...

Haha, my bad. I meant Muslims.

for me the best muslim heavycavalry unit is the timurit elephant :D

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Originally Posted by sabutai

hmmm moors dont get camel gunners? :stupido2:

i dont see many ai armies with lots of uber units, muslim cav isnt so bad ~:handball:

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Of course they do, but as I said, I'm about begin production on late units, so I haven't tried them yet...

Well, I WAS about to produce them.... However, my PC crashed a week ago, and I'm still trying to get it up and going... Well, at least I'm able to use this forum now...that's an improvement...

On another side note, my total war cd's are about 80 kilometers away from here... ~:mecry: Guess that's the punishment you get when you avoid the startup cd-check....

Slightly back to topic however, I REALLY miss the basic camel units you got in MTW1, Beduoin Camels or something like that I think they were called. Very, very basic, armed with swords, shields, bonus in deserts and scared horses. Excellent for tying down and sometimes beating the much stronger western knights. And they were available right from the start!

Well, I started a game as the Turks and so far the cavalry I've gotten are pretty ordinary - then again the "best" melee cavalry I can build are Sipahis, which can double up as decent missile cav. I've been using my generals a lot more to get that initial break in the enemy line to try and incite panic.

Armenians do wonders against the back of a byzantine army. Just get them before your enemy does...

I thought camel-gunners had musketeer range, or is that too good to be true? Or do they have longbow range but do musketeer damage?

After playing Turkish campaign I'm not too big of a fan of Qakupulu, I had them fighting against some crusader knights and they got owned, so after that I never really used them on heavy cav anymore, just on infantry, which they did a good job.

Musketeer range, but slightly worse accuracy, and slightly less damage.

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Originally Posted by Carl

Musketeer range, but slightly worse accuracy, and slightly less damage.

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They fire on the move too, a big advantage over musketeers.

True enough, and I think the fixed accurracy nullifies the accurracy penalty for doing so too.

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Originally Posted by Memnoch

But I would love to know what you guys think is the best Muslim heavy cavalry for mowing down enemy infantry and punching holes in an enemy line. As the Danes I got by fine with Feudal Knights as the staple of my cavalry. Are there comparable units in the Muslim world?

Cheers for any feedback.

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The overall best Muslim heavy cavalry is probably the Timurid Elephant.

For the Turks, Kapikulu is the best in the qualification terms described by you.

I think it is inefficient to equate the use of Muslim cavalry to Western cavalry or to seek equal qualification terms.

The Eastern cavalry have different strengths, namely mobility and missiles. Hence it's better to use light cavalry backed by few heavy cavalry units in Eastern armies.