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Any intrest is MTW/VI, high era, valour one, large custom map, four player team, Clan vs. Clan competition?
:charge:
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Any intrest is MTW/VI, high era, valour one, large custom map, four player team, Clan vs. Clan competition?
:charge:
Im Sure Aggony Will be interested in this :bow: It would be hard to get 4v4s in but i think Game play with 4 team players would be much more fun :beam:
-AggonyLion
yeh im sure we can get 3 members easily after what ive been seeing the past few fridays in vi reunion
How many florins per player?
3v3, Im going to assume to many people do not show up for a 4v4?
I was being overly cautious, and can see that was unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyLion
Much more fun is where it's at!
Have changed it to a 4v4 :bow:
High Era in the KoV was fough at 8k, and I believe that this worked well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Any suggestions?
:beam:
8k would be good. I'll see if I can get a team together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
You know Hunters will be there! :yes: Possibly 2 or maybe 3 teams...if allowed...
I hope valor one means all units will be valor 1 otherwise I wouldn't be interested.
will teams consisting of 2 clans be allowed? im not sure if 4 elites would be ready but this could be fun.
Multiple Teams will be allowed, but each must be composed of a unique set of players, with no crossover members in an individual Round. Once a member plays for a specific Team in a Round, they can not play for another, “in that same Round”. Every time we start a new Round, Teams can be reconfigured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter KIng George
Yes, Valor One is valor 1 for “all” units :yes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
And I just realized that the spelling the game uses, is the same we should use. So changed it to “Valour” :bow:
A Clan Team “must have” at least two member players, but can hire mercenaries to fill out their Team. With the provision that those mercenaries can not play for another Team (their Clan or another Clan’s), “in that same Round”.Quote:
Originally Posted by ELITEofBLIZZARD
:charge:
Well I think that's a very good decision, and will provide good battles. Coupled with the 8k per player, heavy cavalry will be less abundant and have to be more carefully used due to its expense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
Hmmmm so no more val 2 for anti cav units or val 0 for other units? Just want to make this clear since we were used to the original "KOV rules" way.
Let's say valour 1 "max" for all units.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter KIng George
Yup, Aggony is definately interested. :2thumbsup:
The rules need to be worked out though. Especially the "Valour 1" part.
Like does it mean: "Only units with valour 1", "valour 1 max with no weapon/armour" or "valour 1 max with weapon/armour ".
As you do know, there is a huge difference between the three, with all having their shortcomings. But that said I am open to every option. :bow:
:2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
Knew the question would come as soon as I wrote the above :wink:
Valour one maximum: Units can be valour 0, or valour 1, with no other upgrades applied.
Okay, that will result in rather interesting changes in the balance between factions. For example no armour for pavises etc.. Some factions do get the short end of the stick though, especially the muslim factions. But going to be fun to see what type of armies one can conjure up.
8k army:
4 chivknights = 2700
4 other heavy knights = 2700
4 feudal knights = 1700
900 left for a couple of pavise crossbow maybe a horsearcher or normal archer or even some mounted sargants or jinettes.
If we want to reduce the number of heavy cav something more must be done in the rules. For instance a max on number of heavy cav or bonus florins for using other units then heavy cav or negative bonus in florins for using to many or something else.
It is also true that the lower in florin you go the easier it is for heavy cav (that is normally used at val 0 also at higher florins then 8k) to rout everything exept other heavy cav.
I play vi at least every friday night and I know people will bring the knightdominant armies they do allready on 10k. I dont mind facing it or playing with it but if we want more diversity more regulations must be made.
Kalle
Hi,
Heerbann is also interested in a tournament. Would be great to see many great clans back. Last friday there were Aggonies, ELITE, Hunters and some others back. I am sure a tournament would help to reanimate MTW VI.
QUALITY.....OK..I'll post in the KotR forums guys...I'm sure fox will come along and hoping that these matches will be arranged on a Friday night which seems to be the fav at the moment.If we can't manage more than 2 of us :juggle: then I guess we will go on the hire for Merc's :duel: Anyone interested should send me a PM. Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink..!!:croc:
Quote:
Originally Posted by {KotR}Sir_Raison{P}
Hey,
The King is Willing to Lend his Fellow KOTR Friends his Swiss Army Help *wink wink*
I'll see what I can do, but I have extremely irregular hours, and generally don't know when I'm working on a weekend until Thursday evening or as late as Friday mornings. Weekdays are an absolute no-no for me since I'm in university and thus away from my VI.
That's all I can ask m8 :burnout: Pull a sicky lol
Ssshhhhhhh...don't want every bugger to know....bugger everyone knows!:wall: :vanish:Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
don;t try and fool us into thinking you actually do some work at uni :2thumbsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey_Fox
--> im happy to help out with any spaces, although am very out of practice and generally useless anyway :2thumbsup:
btw --> whats is the kotr forum adress?
Scurvs.....here's the link m8
http://com2.runboard.com/bknightsoftherealm
and this will take you to out homepage
http://www.katie6045.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
:tomato: Rais :tomato:
In re-reading my posts I noticed a “drift” in the rule format.
1st. Yes, Valor One is valor 1 for “all” units.
2nd. Let's say valour 1 "max" for all units.
3rd. Valour one maximum: Units can be valour 0, or valour 1, with no other upgrades applied.
4th. Was going to be edging towards allowing upgrades, but didn’t go that far.
My apologies :dizzy:
Now, to set the record straight :inquisitive:
After seriously considering the dilemma presented by Kalle, and experimenting a bit, I have settled on the 1st answer, valor 1 for “all” units.
In the previous Knights of Valour competition, we followed the v1 max rule (allowed v0) and countered the cavalry imbalance with the exception, a v2 max for anti–cav units.
Not that it wasn’t a reasonable solution, but it was hard to explain to folks, and was prone to error, and difficult to monitor.
So, this time around my first thought was to eliminate the v2 exception. And I believe that sticking to a straight valour 1, that raises the cost of cavalry will do the trick nicely.
That is what Yuuki was endorsing in his post:
So, the Valour One Tourney will truly be Valour One, with no other upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
:charge:
That will put a limit on the use of the heaviest cav, no doubt about that, will most likely be very intresting :2thumbsup: , maybe we should use the coming fridays playsession to try it out, or is the tourney due to start on this friday?
Kalle
CBR and I played two 8k all v1 MTW/VI v2.01 battles last night. The gameplay is more sluggish than Samurai Wars, and the ranged units much weaker. CBR suggested that ranged units be taken at v0 to lower their cost, but we don't know the full repercussions of that on the gameplay or its affect on army choice. Range units get a discount on upgrades depending on their melee capability so they aren't paying the full amount for v1 anyway.
I was able to win both battles with a balanced army which included two order foot spears on medium size flat maps. The battles were close; especially the second where CBR probably would have won if he had quickly taken advantage of a gap in my line with a chiv knight or perhaps used the two chiv knights to make a delayed flanking maneuver on my weak side. It's hard to say whether or not his front line would have held long enough for such a maneuver and how long my longbows could delay his flanking cav in melee, but that's the interesting thing about the tactic that makes it risky. My three v1 longbows got between 30 and 40 kills each, and I shot at nothing but cmaa or chiv knights. They didn't get to use all their ammo, and I used them in melee. The kills were about 600 out of 1000 men fielded for each player. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me. My kills were evenly distributed across all my units except for the spears which got less than the average.
First battle:
CBR (HRE)
4 pav xbow
4 archers
4 chiv knights (gen)
4 fmaa
Yuuki (French)
4 xbow
4 cmaa
2 orderfoot
2 turcopoles
3 feudal knights
1 knight templar (gen)
Second battle:
Yuuki (English)
4 pav xbow
3 longbows
4 cmaa
2 orderfoot
2 feudal knights
1 knight templar (gen)
CBR (HRE)
2 xbow
2 pav xbow
4 fmaa
3 cmaa
2 chiv knights (gen)
3 feudal knights
question: will there be a faction limit?
4byz v 4byz is not very intriguing. :-)
RTK might be interested.
Well I dont know about if Byz will be invincible but of course val 1 varang will be a strong unit add pronois and alans for cav and yes they look strong.
A simple solution could be to say that each player in the same team must use diffrent factions. I.E. a team of four players must use 4 diffrent factions.
Almohads are a bigger problem though, with val 1 they cant even reach 8000 if not going way passed the 4 unit of same sort and russians might have the same problem. Egypt and turks on the other hand I think can field very good armies as always :)
Kalle
Only byz would be indeed boring :laugh4: Maybe we should thinking over the rules. valour 1 anti cav is too weak too in my opinion.
In my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with only Byz.:yes:
Why not try 7-8k without any valour limitations? It might result in a rather interesting balance.
V1 is really interesting. Otherwise it will be cwc again. I prefer to try out the new rules (all v1).
Thought I might just add that rather than use a specific valour upgrade level, you could potentially use a maximum valour upgrade differential. This could be set at 0, 1/2, 1 etc, although 1/2 might be quite interesting. Note that weapon and armour upgrades are counted as 1/2 valour upgrades. For instance a V2 CMAA and a V0 CK have a V2 difference. If it is required to keep the CMAA at V2 then the CK must be bumped up to at least V1(w1 or a1), although it could go to V2 or V2(w1 or a1), assuming a 1/2 valour upgrade differential.
The valour upgrade difference is calculated as the maximum valour upgrade level of all units minus the minimum valour upgrade level of all units.
The v1 is just to get the morale up. The game actually works at v0 5k, but the morale is so low that there is a lot of routing, and later in the battle you end up with a lot of exhausted units scattered over the map that can't run anymore and re-rout when they get close to an enemy unit. Maybe playing at less than 8k would help the factions that can't spend 8k at all v1.
Spears and halberdiers will be a bit touchy at v1 because of their relatively low morale, but if you let them go to v2 then they are too expensive relative to the other units. The only way to really fix MTW/VI is to modify it.
i agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by |Heerbann|_Luculus
one faction max per team is not a bad idea, but im easy.~:) although that might create: byz, egypt, turks, xxxx vs byz, egypt, turks, xxxx.. so nothing would be solved. tomi-sama?
Hey Guys i think having val 1 for all units with no upgrades would be a bit 2D with everyone basicly having the same armys, so i think if all units must have val1 then we must have free upgrades to liven things up a bit and would make it much more interesting imo.
what do u think ?:juggle2:
-AggonyLion{Leo}
I posted the armies I took in two all v1 battles. They aren't 2D. I had all 4 components: range, sword, spear and cav, in my army. If you allow upgraded swords, then the spears don't stand a chance. Upgrading ranged units is bad because they get a discount on upgrades and it turns them into melee units. Upgraded spears are too expensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyLion
You have 100 units to choose from in MTW/VI. How can it be boring with that many units from which to choose, and why shouldn't a player know what unit beat what before he sends his units in to attack? How do you know what matchups to make if you don't know what beats what?
I think whoever uses their units better should win not whoever makes the most cost effective upgrades.
Well the one faction max per team won't really fix the problems caused by the Valour One only rule. As it is there are some factions which will be picked over others. I don't think we will be seeing any of the Chiv Knight equalents in army selections, mostly due to their very high price.
Without faction limits the Byz will be picked my most players, just due to the fact that these rules give them the best unit line up. The muslims and Russians suffer with these rules, due to the fact that their units need the additional upgrades to be competitive and I don't think we will see a lot of them. As for the catholics, well Feudal Knights will most likely be the mainstay unit with CMAA in support. I believe people will be avoiding the spears as normal due to their ineffectiveness and look for proper supporting cav instead. The problem is that there is a lack of good supporting cavalry for most catholic factions, with the Polish Retainers, Teutonic Sergeants and the Szekely propably being the best choices.
I'd say that with the current rules, these five factions will be the most used:
-Byzantines (superb unit lineup for these rules)
-Polish (one of the two catholic factions with a decent medium cav to support the feudals)
-Germans (the same as with Poland)
-England (longbows and templars, need I say more?)
-Hungarians (Szekely is a decent supporting unit)
Personally I'd favour scrapping the whole valour one idea and instead just set the florin level at 7-8k, preferably 7k. This will allow for a greater faction/unit selection, while still also keeping the morale level lower. I think we have a good example from the KoV tournament, where most players where upgrading their CMAA with weapons. This shows that there is a tendency to strive for stronger infantry over strong cavalry, and I believe we should try to sate that desire. It will most likely be enjoyable for all of us.
They upgrade the swords so that they can beat cavalry. That's just plain wrong from a gameplay perspective. It's the upgrades that caused the gameplay to deteriorate into 2 components: cav/swords. Playing at 7k doesn't fix it because the RPS breaks at 6k when using upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
I'm less concerned with what factions are viable than I am with achieving a 4 component gameplay. However, maybe that's not achievable in MTW/VI which is actually why I stopped playing it. Two component gameplay is of no interest to me.
Now try the same with one of you taking the Byzantines. If the Byz knows what he is doing, he will win. About valour 1 rules; I don't think you will see spears in this tournament. It is far easier to just buy cavalry instead, because as we all know, spears are not cost-efficient. Either way VI has always been about infantry and cavalry, not swords-spears-cavalry and to be honest, I think it works better that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
Because the valour one rule actually cuts down the truly useful units. Many units need the upgrades to actually be effective unit choices and without the upgrades they will just sink into the pit of uselessness.Quote:
You have 100 units to choose from in MTW/VI. How can it be boring with that many units from which to choose, and why shouldn't a player know what unit beat what before he sends his units in to attack? How do you know what matchups to make if you don't know what beats what?
As to unit matchups; I have never had any problems of knowing what beats what and I believe most of us VI regulars do not suffer from that problem either. So I'd be surprised if you actually suffer from that problem Yuuki.
Cost effectiveness has always been a factor in the game, with or without upgrades. The Valour One rule does not reduce its role in the game. It is still there in the background as it always has been.Quote:
I think whoever uses their units better should win not whoever makes the most cost effective upgrades.
As to he who uses his units better winning, I've always found that to be the case in VI 10k. Army selection alone will never win a game, although it might be beneficial at times. It always comes down to how the units are used, especially in team games.
Well you won't be fixing the RPS with any Valour 1 rules. Only a stat redesign will fix it. For example in the KoV tournament an spear/halberd was a rarity. But as it is I find the two component gameplay to be highly enjoyable and possess a surprising depth. The RPS-based balance really isn't needed in VI. VI already has a balance revolving around the different strengths of infantry and cavalry, which works superbly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
If I ever need to play decent RPS-based gameplay, I'll turn to SamWars.
I have no interest in 2 component gameplay and rules that enhance such gameplay, so I'm out. If Byz is such a big problem in all v1, then it could be banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
Ok, lets up the skill level.
Take any Faction you want.
Build an army for 5k or less.
But you can only use one each of any unit type.
All units at Valour one, with no other upgrades.
Any takers?
:egypt:
P.S. This could be the most interesting Total War tournament there ever was :yes:
You will be needing VIArmyBuilderPlus, if you don’t already have it.
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/tools/VIArmyBuilderPlus.zip
Note: This tool is only reasonably accurate, but good enough to work up your initial troop line up ideas.
:charge:
Logfiles will be required to verify each win is legitimate.
*whispers from the shadows:* Or you could try CBR's community mod.
Or we could use the samwars mod, that would be nice I think.
Kalle
The tourney is for people playing VI. The all v1 makes cavalry more expensive which should help make spears a more viable choice, and should ensure that swords don't beat cav which I thought would be a good thing for the gameplay. I'm not claiming it's perfect, but I took 2 orderfoot in both my games vs CBR, and I did ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalle
I'll try playing against Byz with CBR. Some of the weaker factions like the Russians can still be useful for finesse strategy. A 4 man team can afford to have 1 finesse player in the lineup. You just can't adopt a strategy where the 4 armies line up opposite the enemy's 4 armies and slug it out. You could also help the weaker factions by reducing the money per player to something less than 8k.
I don't know about max 1 of each unit type. I personally think that's too drastic a change. This tourney could be a test to see if all v1 provides anything new to the playbalance. According to Ducky it will be bad, but he's also stated his preference for the standard 10k MTW/VI cav/sword gameplay. For the record, CBR also thinks all v1 won't be all that good either. Players could try the all v1 in some test battles to see what they think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puzz3D
With all due respected mate :embarassed: i have not been in TW online as long as u but i (we) never left Vi why? because we love it for what it is, and theres no point in u saying u left it because u dont like the game play so why come back and tell the rest of us what rules we "should" use and then mone when we have a good idea, does not make sence to me. :inquisitive:
I mean no offence Puzz:oops: just they way it seems to me.
What do the rest of u think ??
-AggonyLion{Leo}
I didn't make the rule. Tomi made the all v1 rule, and I started gathering a team based on that. I've now told the people I was gathering for the tournamnt to forget about it since it's obvious that most of the players want the inferior 2 component gameplay.Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyLion
I'm not downloading any mod, I don't have the connection for it.
Perhaps playing at 7k instead would be a better idea?
I kind of like the Val 1 Rule i would just like to see upgrades aloud, or we may as well be in early or ban chiv knights thats all
Mind u having Val 1 and Val 0 would be great also :yes:
-AggonyLion{Leo}
well after reading all comments above, i dont know wot to say, maybe only 2 unit of heavy cav each? lower the florins ? gah:help:
I think all val 1 is just fine, so what if armies become slightly similar, you can trust the community to add variation to the games, - its in danger of becoming far too complicated....
:2thumbsup:
I'd personally favour a simple 7k high era tournament. It would mean that each player would have 437.5 florins per unit, which would put the units used between 200-900 florins in cost. I believe we would have a highly enjoyable game at those florin levels. It should give us a nice relation between infantry and cavalry. Anyway I suggest we try it tomorrow.
As to your suggestion Tomi, I tried it and it is interesting to a degree, but I'm not sure if I'd enjoy playing with such armies. Anyway as always in the end we will play what you ultimately decide to be for the best, but until your final decision I'll be lobbying just a simple 7k tournament.:yes:
Yeah sounds Good :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
Seven is very doable :yes:
Valour one at 7k with no upgrades, levels the field for a good contest, and still leaves many choices open.
Any limitations on Factions can be argued between Team Leaders when they set the date and time for their Match.
Going to try to have at least a Sigh Up forum and Rules up by Saturday afternoon, and can probably assign Matches and have negotiations started by next weekend, depending on how quick we can get everybody in.
Will be posting the link very soon.
If you know of any Clans that might be interested, please post their name, and link too if you can. As soon as the message board is ready, I will go a visiting :wink:
Allrighty then lets go!!!
I hope you bring your team back in Yuukie and I hope to see many other clans and players!!
Will it be knockout style or every team has to face every team or we split into groups (not that I think we will be enough teams for very many groups)
Kalle
how bout a round robin torny, with all teams play eachother maybe twice, and the top 2 go to final
We tried 7k all val 1 yesterday. Nothing wrong with it, very funny it was :egypt:
/Kalle
Thanks Kalle, that’s great!
I just finished completely rebuilding the CWC message board from scratch.
The Valour One Tourney forums are there but bare, but you can still Sign Up you Clan Team, or yourself as a Mercenary if you wish, at any time.
The long way:
http://www.clanwarscomp.org/
The short way:
http://p219.ezboard.com/bclanwars3540
Have started on the Rules, and should have them up tomorrow morning (read noon) :charge:
Hmm i still think it needs a little work to be really good, 0val inf upgrades or val 2 mulisha inf are a must basicly the armys dont work imo u get a few great units but then your left with an odd amount of cash that u cant spend that u could put on upgrades to make up a usefull unit in your army.:help:
Apart from that the rules are ok just need a little something to sort it out.:idea2:
-AggonyLion{Leo}
[QUOTE=AggonyLion] 0val inf upgrades QUOTE]
"0val inf, Wep shield upgrades"
Dont worry about it Leo, lets get it started, I am eager!!! Next fridays session I hope will be a tourneymatch.
Kalle
yep lets do it was good to play at least 3v3 aggs v aggs lol, i had a good army, and one not so good, cough,
good to see Gawain and Shields come to play :thumbsup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomisama
Hey,
Master Tomisama, The King Has Praise you for giving him the Gift of the ArmyBuilder. I shall Pass it along to my Ronin Team.
I bow
:yes:
Thanks Wars :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by {BHC}KingWarman888
Now everyone,
Please understand that all of the above was "discussion" in preparation for this Contest.
The official Valour One Tournament Rules were posted today, and are ready for your evaluation.
http://p219.ezboard.com/bclanwars3540
Any further discussion should be presented on the Valour One Discussion forum.
Sign Up is also open and waiting :wink:
:charge:
Thank you Tomi :bow:
-AggonyLion{Leo}
Woot!!!! ~:thumb:
Why the sudden allowing of weapons/armour upgrades?
It wasn’t sudden :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by AggonyDuck
I considered the possibility of allowing non valour upgrades for a good 24 hours.
My original thought was that these upgrades could be abused, so left them out.
But then there was the problem of wasted money, and how important getting every florin spent can be to fair game play.
I figured that with the weight that each unit brings to the field with the valour one format, that upgrades would probably not make that much difference without infringing on the low 7k budget.
Also non valour upgrades don’t raise the morale of the unit, and no matter how well armed or shielded your troops are, it is morale that keep them in the fight :wink:
I could be wrong, but my instincts are telling me it wont be a problem.
While I am doing some explaining, a word about the strength of cavalry at valour one.
Knights should be overpowering :knight:
The armored knight was the tank of the medieval period, and were to be avoided by all but other mounted knights.
There is a chance for abuse here also. But the cost of the valour one knight is self limiting.
Again I could be wrong, but again my instincts are telling me that it wont be a problem.
Do you have a specific disagreement with adding the upgrades?
We can talk about it up to the point when matches are assigned :yes:
Hey,
I did some Pratice MTW games with one of my Ronin Teammates today, Some 9K games (Tomi met him btw :D), then I hurry off and went back to 7K, as I forgot it was 7K
But even still. We was able to pick some good 5-6K armies, but we had anywhere from 260-630K left and He told me personallly that the Rule of Upgrading Armor and such needed to be added in. Good Idea imo.
Those rules seem good. For those who need the extra possibility to spend money allowing the upgrades is good (I got no problem spending it on a straight val one though :clown: ).
Since every unit still must be val 1 I dont think it can be used in a balancewrecking way. Upgrading to much on weapon or armour will make the rest of the army to weak.
Kalle
Five Clan groups have Signed Up in the first few days.
Not sure how many Teams that means yet :grin:
But if you want a piece of this, we need to hear from you, as soon as possible.
http://p219.ezboard.com/fclanwars354...opicID=1.topic
If you are an individual player who would like to participate, please don’t hesitate to post your availability.
There may be Teams looking for Mercenaries, or other individual players you can band up with (has happened).
It won’t be long until we get going.
:charge:
I think Aggony have not posted the sign in yet but we will asap.
Kalle
do we sign for Aggony , >? or do we leave that to Shields our emissary even tho i dont think he is participating
Hi guys,
7k sounds good to me ^_^ I've always thought it provided better balance than 10k.
I'd love to play but my clan is pretty inactive these days. Can anyone adopt me temporarily?
hey buu. RTK may be interested in some mercenaries. i'll keep you updated.
i still use that buukenshin mod, btw. :-)
Sorry. Dont care for these rules in the least. To much restraint. Why allow v1 Heavy cav? v0 was much better with anti cav at v1. Just my 2 cents. In fact I despise these rules.
The idea is to raise the price of cav closer to where it should be relative to the infantry. A cav should be at least 2x the cost of the infantry that beats it to account for the higher mobility of the cav. It doesn't achieve that because the spears weren't put back to the cost they had in MTW v1.0 as we requested, but it's closer than leaving cav at v0 while the spears have to go to v1 just to have enough morale to make them usable. I realize now that the people who play MTW/VI regularly don't care if spears are usable. You could remove them from the game, and it wouldn't matter to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny