Final Faction Voting Thread

Yes, it has arrived! After much discussion and endless reseaerch, we have decided on and prepared the final faction up for voting, the Principality of Rostov-Suzdal. We apologise for the delay in releasing this faction, but our leading members were bogged down in exams. However, things have heated up our forums once again, and we are making great progress on the mod. Just a note, I apologise for not having presented a map of Rostov-Suzdal, but it is not on the area planned for our first release, and so the regions there have not been finalised. Anyway, withouth wasting anymore time, may the voting begin!

Just to remind you of the factions that have already made it into MA:

Papal States
Kingdom of Scotland
Kingdom of Ireland
Kingdom of England
Kingdom of France
Kingdom of Leon-Castile
Crown of Aragon
Holy Roman Empire
Kingdom of Bohemia
Republic of Venice
Republic of Genoa
Kingdom of Appulia-Calabria
Kingdom of Hungary
Kingdom of Poland
Kingdom of Denmark
Kingdom of Cilician Armenia
Byzantine Empire
Kingdom of Georgia
Principality of Kiev
Novgorod
Moorish Amirate
Sultanate of Rum
Abbasid Caliphate
Fatimid Empire
Volga-Bulgarians
Khwarezmid Empire
Kipchaks
Principality of Lithuania
Golden Horde

The Emirate of Sevilla

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/solo.mt/sevilla_3.jpg

In around 1020 the Caliphate of Cordoba, once an incredibly powerful empire encompassing much of the muslim land in the west and sometimes referred to as the Byzantium of the West by modern scholars, arrived at the end of its decline and finally dissolved into dozens of minor political states commonly referred to as taifa states. Among these was of course Sevilla under the rule of the Abbadid dynasty. Over the next fifty years, Sevilla would rarely witness a day of peace as it ruthlessly expanded at the expense of the smaller taifa states around it. Even the ancient and powerful city of Cordoba became just another name in the long list of states that Sevilla had conquered.

By game start (1073) Sevilla had become without question the most powerful of the muslim states with its only true rival on the peninsula being Alphonso VI and his kingdom of Leon-Castile to the north. The city of Sevilla itself is perhaps the most powerful single city on the penninsula. Such aggressive expansion is due in large part to Sevilla's Emirs, the Abbadids. Over its half century of existence, Sevilla has seen three rulers from the Abbad line with each being more ruthless than the last (Abbad II is said to have kept the skulls of his enemies whom he had personally murdered as flowerpots). Through a frighteningly effective mixture of military backstabbing and diplomatic deceit and treachery the Abbadids have managed to gobble up every other state in their path. The current Emir, Muhammad al-Mu'tamid, has only been in power for three years but he is viewed as cruel, lying, and faithless in his political dealings though in person he is a rather amiable man and a generous patron of the arts (especially literature). His overly extravagant lifestyle, however, combined with his constant warring (most notably with Sevilla's old rival Granada) is actively emptying the nation's treasury forcing even heavier taxes on an already tax-burdened people.

Form a gameplay perspective, Sevilla fills a very interesting gap in the Iberian Penninsula, being the only muslim power. It effectively changes the entire dynamic of the region from a race by the christian factions to gobble up as many rebel provinces as fast as possible to one that actually requires careful diplomacy and strategic planning as it id did in history. While powerful militarily, Sevilla's treasury is barely staying afloat and drastic measures need to be taken quickly to avert a complete collapse. Its diplomatic situation is tricky as it lies directly in the path of both christian expansion from the north and Almoravid expansion from the south. The ruling family would be incredibly interesting to role play with their various extreme traits and quirks. Ultimately the faction would be a very enjoyable challenge to play. THe only real drawback to Sevilla's inclusion is the fact that historically Sevilla as an independant nation lasted only until 1091 when it was conquered by the Almoravids (though through Muhammad al-Mu'tamid's shady diplomacy and backstabbing, Sevilla did manage to dodge the Almoravid maw for many years before finally falling as one of the last remaining taifa states). Ultimately, who can say where Sevilla's aggressive expansionism and wily cast of royal characters would have taken it had the Almoravids been stopped and of all the taifa states Sevilla is in the best position to just that.

The Kingdom of Norway

https://img179.imageshack.us/img179/...orway028uh.jpg

Norway itself would not be terribly viable without a few of our faction choices. Firstly, they keep Denmark from swarming over the north, or northern Russian kingdoms from tearing through Scandinavia. Secondly, they would possess the Western Isles in Britain, and here they would be key for fighting with the Irish and Scottish. The viking age was over, but neither the Irish or Scots had forgotten centuries of raiding and attempted conquests over their territories, and the Norwegians hadn't totally abandonned these attempts, though they'd finished, more or less, with raiding, and had switched to attempts at conquest. Only a while after the start (1073), Magnus Barelegs (himself dressing normally as a Gael, hence his moniker) he conquered the Isle of Mann began his attempted conquest of Ireland, capturing Dublin but being slain in an ambush in Ulster a year later. The Scots and Norse had yet to play out their wars and dealings to a final conclusion on the matter of various coastal territories and the surrounding islands of Scotland. The early period for the three factions is really the tail end of the viking age in the Gaelic world, with raiding turned to conquest. No one in the isles had been quite so successful in repulsing or absorbing the Norwegians, which actually led to their continued wars with them; because they had intermarried heavily with them, they assumed Gaelic succession laws were similar to their own, and made claims at both the high kingship of Ireland and Scotland, and attempted to enforce them. This comes as well with claims of the kingship of England (the Normans were descended from Norwegians and Danes) and Denmark.

The Norwegians were prolific traders, trading in countless ports all through the north of Europe, but also in the Meditterranean. Norwegians fought in the crusades, both to the Holy Land and in the 'Northern Crusades'; Norwegians served in mostly German armies against the Sword Brethern and Lithuanian pagans, and a Norwegian crusading king was known as 'Jerusalemfarer'.

At the time, they were ruled by Olaf III of Norway, son of Harald Hardråde, who participated in his father's invasion of England in 1066 in a failed attempt to claim the English throne. He originally ruled the country jointly with his brother Magnus II, who died in 1069, leaving Olaf in sole rule of Norway. He married Svend Estriden, daughter of the king of Denmark to make peace with him (as both had a claim on the other's throne), but produced no children, and he was instead succeeded by his bastard son, the Gall Gaedhil Magnus III, also called Magnus Barefoot or Magnus Barelegs, because of his habit of dressing as a Gael (wearing a long shirt and a cloak with no leggings or pants, and walking about barefooted much of the time). Olaf and Magnus, the first two rulers one would have in game, are both fairly strong. Olaf was an intelligent man, the first Norwegian king to read and write, and a religious man, who greatly improved the relations of Norway with the Pope, founding dioceses, building churches, and giving gifts to the new churches. He was also an intelligent businessman, who instituted the first guilds in Norway. His son Magnus was an intelligent military leader, and ended the period of peace his father had made, by going to war in both Sweden and Denmark, then on into Britain, retaking the Western Isles and the Isle of Mann. However, Magnus would not be so much of a diplomat; he had no legitimate heirs and Norway collapsed in a civil war after his death, he only narrowly brought to end a few wars in his lifetime. However, for what it's worth, he is a skilled military leader, so the first king Norway gets would be good for building the economy, and the second for making war.

Early Norway would still be developing out of the earlier form of aristocratic warriors toward the emerging feudal system. Norway, like other kingdoms, was, at the time, actually a few smaller kingdoms subverted to a more powerful over-king. 'Viking' type troops would still exist; they'd be light or absent of cavalry initially in Norway. However, the Western Isles provides a second facet to their armies. The inhabitants of the Earldom of the Western Isles were Gall Gaedhil; essentially Gaelic, but with copious Norse influences. This province would provide them Gaelic warriors, including some light horse, and a specific Gall Gaedhil unit or two. Combined with traditional viking soldiers, they would start with a unique mixture of units, and an interesting spread of provinces, three in Scandinavia, one in the British Isles. Outside of the Gall Gaedhil of the Hebrides, they would have no early cavalry of their own; Norwegians that did ride horses only rode them to battle and dismounted to fight, much as Saxons and other older Germanic peoples often did. They have strong infantry, but a lack of cavalry will hamper them as the necessity for horsemen builds up. In a straight out infantry fight though, they have an advantage of strong, relatively well-equipped and high morale soldiers making up the core of their army.

As such, from a gameplay perspective, they'd be a lot of fun. They'd in part help justify the presence of the Scots and Irish, as they still had some interesting dynamics at work between them. They have also a unique option of where to expand. One could focus on conquering Scandinavia (an obvious early choice), and going from there into the surrounding area, or using their British Isles province to expand into the isles and form a strong base there with the relatively rich provinces available. Their early armies would be built small, around a few units of well-equipped, capable soldiers good for fighting other infantry, giving them a good edge in some arenas in the early game, but those would lose their potency as heavy cavalry begins its more dominant period, meaning the Norwegians will then need to adapt further.

The Principality of Rostov-Suzdal:

https://img502.imageshack.us/img502/...map2hn8.th.jpg

Again, sorry about the map, Rostov-Suzdal is named Vladimir-Suzdal in that map, the red region.

In the North-Eastern corner of the Old Continent, on the vast land between the Dnester and Volga rivers only a powerful state was able to gain a foothold in the Early Middle Ages, and that was the Kievan Rus’. However, by the 11th century the once mighty state started to disintegrate into several smaller pieces because of both internal and external reasons. One of the most significant of these evolving principalities was called Rostov-Suzdal located between the Oka and Volga rivers and extended as far north as Belozersk and Ustyug. The local capital was Rostov the Great, and the chief towns included Suzdal, Yaroslavl, and Belozersk. Otherwise in old Russia only two towns were called veliky (great). One was Novgorod, the famous trade centre on the North, the other Rostov. An outstanding feature of the development of urban life in the Rostov-Suzdal land was the fact that none of its towns was an undisputed centre. From high antiquity this distant land had two parallel centres--Rostov and Suzdal. That is why the land is usually known by the dual name of Rostov-Suzdal (or later Vladimir-Suzdal Rus). However, the ancient records were ignorant of these artificial names and usually designated the territory between the Volga and the Oka as the Zalessk Land. What’s important is that the political unification of these two strong settlements and the several smaller ones opened the door to the split from the Kievan state. However, historically it did not take place until 1125, so in 1073 the faction would start as a subordered part of Kiev.

Slavic settlers entered the region in the 10th century and soon made it the centre of the Great Russian nation. The area is indeed the centre, lying as it does across the river route from the Baltic Sea to the Caspian Sea via the Oka and Volga Rivers and adjacent to the route from the Baltic to the Black Sea via the Dnieper River. That is why in the Zalessk Land trade was flourishing in this time much to the delight of the prince and the through passenger merchants. The pleasant economical situation enabled the line-up of a huge readily raised army as well (10-15000 soldiers). The Slavic colonisation was still continuous in the 11th century therefore the freedom of peasants in the principality was rather high. They were not averse from warlike situations and despite being relatively poorly armoured these Slavic woodsmen were considered tough warriors and that’s why a potential enemy could not be pleased when saw that they were who formed the biggest part of the Zalesskian army, wholly exactly the infantry. This section was otherwise a so-called territorial army with shields and spears (kopichnis) or with bow (luzhnis). The cavalry was lead by the boyars (high aristocrats), was mainly recruited from mercenaries and formed about 30% of the whole army. The warriors who served in it were the younger druzhinas of the prince, except about 20% of the cavalry who made up the most dreadful field unit, plus the escort of the prince. They were the old druzhinas, often deriving from some mysterious eastern land. In general the army of Rostov-Suzdal was not the most up-to-date and best equipped one of its period, but with the lethal combination of infantry and cavalry it formed a solid and effective power.

We must admit that this Zalesskian military wasn’t really unique either, since all of the Russian principalities and the Slavic people had very similar conditions as well. What really picks out Rostov-Suzdal from the row of the others that is its outstanding strategic location that can provide a rather exciting game-experience. As it was former said, the principality locates between the Oka and Volga Rivers at the very corner of the theoretical area of the Kievan Rus’. On the woody East there is no-one except some primitive Finno-Ugric tribes, northward there is a small land passage to the Scandinavian-peninsula, but danger cannot be expected from that direction and on the South extends the huge steppe, the highway of peoples but steppe folks usually don’t like the woody, marshy lands. For a capable commander a state on this location is God’s own country. The only potential enemy can be found between the Volga and Kama Rivers, that is the notorious Volga-Bulgaria, besides on the West the folk’s ‘own’ people, the Novgorodians and the Kievan central government. Despite having a solid strategic location in the beginnings Rostov-Suzdal can be easily invaded by Novgorod or oppressed by the still forceful Rus’ because of the bearings of case in foreign politics.

Anyway, these types of ‘inner’ conflicts were not too scarce historically either, so you had better pay attention right at the start if you played with the faction. However, survival is just the minimal requirement. If you have managed it, you can start to expand, to build the foundation-stones of your future empire and then you immediately come to realize that in spite of the advantageous commercial location, the area does not really abound in goods of the nature. Sure enough, playing Rostov-Suzdal you’ll studiously have to attend to those damned financial problems beside the several other one. And at last, when you will tend to take some relaxation gloating upon the subjugated half of Europe then comes the tempest. It is called Golden Horde… Consequently we can say that playing with Rostov-Suzdal would be rather unique and exciting, but on no account a pushover.

when mod finish? I can't wayt :) !!!

A rough skatch for Rostov-Suzdal on the former piece of map.

https://img148.imageshack.us/img148/...etchbs4.th.jpg

I voted for Norway, on the grounds that it will make it more difficult for Denmark to savage the Holy Roman Empire and for the Russian states to overrun Scandinavia, in addition to contributing to the gameplay in the British Isles. That said, Sevilla and Rostov-Suzdal would significantly contribute to gameplay in their respective areas as well (though I personally would put a higher priority to the Iberian Peninsula); I can definately see why the team had a difficult time deciding which of these factions to include.

Norway for me, for both gameplay and Vikings

wouldn't it have been better to make it a private poll, where we can't see the results till it was over

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......rostov-suzdal? is this a joke? rostov-suzdal makes norway look amazing. and i couldnt be paid to vote for norway!

i thought the last one would be serbia,burgundy,bulgaria, cause people wanted them.

well, i guess im back to mtr.

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Originally Posted by Stig

wouldn't it have been better to make it a private poll, where we can't see the results till it was over

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Personally, i hadn't known before that this option even exists here at the .org, and we wanted to do this on this forum in any case. Otherwise, i don't think it'd be a big failure, in addition the poll runs just for two wees.

Anyway, i'd like to hear comments on the other two as well, why have you chosen them?

Its a two week Poll BTW.

Arfrisco, you're naming factions that were insignificant at 1073.

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Originally Posted by arfrisco

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.......rostov-suzdal? is this a joke? rostov-suzdal makes norway look amazing. and i couldnt be paid to vote for norway!

i thought the last one would be serbia,burgundy,bulgaria, cause people wanted them.

well, i guess im back to mtr.

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While this post was a little over-confrontational, I have to say that I agree with the overall sentiment. However, I don't think that Rostov-Suzdal is such a stupid choice. Now, Ireland, that's a stupid choice, but since that isn't up for discussion, it looks like I'm going to have to vote Norway.

So many choices! The voting for Parliament in North Korea is more democratic than this one.
But speaking of voting, there will be a Hall of Fame one eventually, and there you will receive the right feedback.

Finally! Thank you MA team! Once the final faction is decided, when will this mod be coming out (roughly)? I'm looking forward to it's release!


P.S. Voted for Sevilla after much deliberation. I couldn't stand the thought of southern Iberia just being fodder for Christian states to gobble up.

P.P.S. Shouldn't this thread be stickied?

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

But speaking of voting, there will be a Hall of Fame one eventually, and there you will receive the right feedback.

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LOL, please get off it... We are aware of the fact that the Hall of Fame voting will be our doom, so you don't have to threat us with it anymore. Thank you. :2thumbsup:

Augustus: not at all. At this time we cannot say even a rough term, but of course we're working on our first release that is going to cover Western-Europe.

As soon as Shifty returns, the thread will be stickied. ;)

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

So many choices! The voting for Parliament in North Korea is more democratic than this one.
But speaking of voting, there will be a Hall of Fame one eventually, and there you will receive the right feedback.

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Oh no! We're not going to win a Hall of Fame award! Ah, the aggony, the pain, the suffering! That will prove our undoing, spoke from a man who truly knows how much that will destroy our seemingly well-recieved mod!
Really, we don't care. Do you have anything better to do in your life than complain about this mod. It hasn't even come out. Good quip though, it was...humourous...but North Korea does not have a parliament.
So, I suggest you take your bad disposition that only exists because someone doesn't give you enough attention, your low credibility, and your belief that we are making this mod for one person's enjoyment (yourself) and for a hall of fame award.
Awards are nice, but we don't base our work around them.
True democracies do not break down just because one person has a complaint, so I guess we are more democratic than you think!
Happy voting!

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

So many choices! The voting for Parliament in North Korea is more democratic than this one.
But speaking of voting, there will be a Hall of Fame one eventually, and there you will receive the right feedback.

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Yes, we're clearly a single-minded, narrow mod to offer factions so similar in their geography, culture, military, and historical significance as Norway, Sevilla, and Rostov-Suzdal. Sorry you did not get to choose between Serbia, Bulgaria, and Croatia.

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Originally Posted by IrishArmenian

Awards are nice, but we don't base our work around them.

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OK, I get it. So how much do you think I should donate to the modders in order to see Bulgaria or Serbia in?

Serbia is in MTR, Bulgaria will be in other mods. You can't get always what you want.

It is a balanced offer. One faction from southwestern europe, one from northern and one from eastern. Muslim, Catholic and Orthodox. You don't have to agree with their choices but it is a fair offer...

Wow...some tough choices. Sevilla certainly would add alot to the game but I opted for Norway as my choice of preference. I felt it would add more to the overall balance of gameplay between factions. :smash:

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

OK, I get it. So how much do you think I should donate to the modders in order to see Bulgaria or Serbia in?

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Is this some sort of weak insult trying to label us as corrupt?
There are a few things you should know about modding before you start with these comments that make you seem delusional because somehow, you think that we, at Medieval Auctoriso, are taking joy in the exclusion of some factions.
Here is the knowledge you lack about mods in general, in an easy to read list!
--Modders are not modding for money, they mod to make a more enjoyable game exeperience,
--Large scale mods are not easy
--Due to the sensitivity of the subject (history), it is highly likely that some nations will have to be excluded because the hardcoded faction limit is 31, with rebels/independents, that makes 30
--Different mods have different things to offer
--Being an a nuisance gets you nowhere, in fact, it hurts your cause
--Mods are free, so try as many as you want.
--There are many helpful modding resources on various websites (I like the one here the best) that can give you the information to allow you to experiment with modding. After some reading, a few mod tool downloads and a lot of patience, you can add Bulgaria or Serbia to your own Vanilla M2TW or a mod of your choice. With the mod, you will have to replace factions though, in vanilla, only 21 of 31 slots are used.
If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me. That way, the mod and you both save face.

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Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea

While this post was a little over-confrontational, I have to say that I agree with the overall sentiment. However, I don't think that Rostov-Suzdal is such a stupid choice. Now, Ireland, that's a stupid choice, but since that isn't up for discussion, it looks like I'm going to have to vote Norway.

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Look who's talking! Mr.Iwanteverysinglelittlegreekstateasafactionman.:juggle2:
Anyway I voted for Seville since I think they would be the most interesting but if Norway wins I wont be too upset.

IrishArmenian, to be honest with you I never expected to get anywhere with this debate (if it can be called this way), as it was clear in the very beginning that your whole team is averse to any feedback and suggestions - the whole voting topic was a poor attempt at giving people the delusion that they have a say in the factions list. This is evidenced by the third faction chocie, which is a rather unpopular one and aimed at diverting votes to the original two, which were the ones your team wanted in anyway.
However this is not what made me become "the nuissance" you write about (anyone with a different opinion is a big nuissance to you and your friends it appears), but the remark you made to the effect that a certain faction was preferred to others based on significance and a specific dance left as heritage. Looking at Caledonian's responses and his insistance on which kingdoms were "significant" and which were not, I do not feel the least sorry about anything I might have written that may have hurt anybody's feelings.

With that said, I am going to end my participation here, so that you can go on with the mod, as it is a huge project and you should not waste any time with forumists' feedback (especially if it is not positive). Good luck.

Very nice looking descriptions. I think all three would be nice, but considering the faction limits, I went with Sevilla, but it was a hard choice between that and Norway.

I just had to vote for Rostov-Suzdal...all that steppe and nothing to fill it. :idea2:

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

it was clear in the very beginning that your whole team is averse to any feedback and suggestions

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Why should they, anyway? That is their mod, so that's them who decide who's in and who's out. Personally I think the modding team has spent way too much time discussing that list (and fending off various kinds of nationalists that wanted their faction in game sooo badly:whip: ).

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

IrishArmenian, to be honest with you I never expected to get anywhere with this debate (if it can be called this way), as it was clear in the very beginning that your whole team is averse to any feedback and suggestions - the whole voting topic was a poor attempt at giving people the delusion that they have a say in the factions list. This is evidenced by the third faction chocie, which is a rather unpopular one and aimed at diverting votes to the original two, which were the ones your team wanted in anyway.
However this is not what made me become "the nuissance" you write about (anyone with a different opinion is a big nuissance to you and your friends it appears), but the remark you made to the effect that a certain faction was preferred to others based on significance and a specific dance left as heritage. Looking at Caledonian's responses and his insistance on which kingdoms were "significant" and which were not, I do not feel the least sorry about anything I might have written that may have hurt anybody's feelings.

With that said, I am going to end my participation here, so that you can go on with the mod, as it is a huge project and you should not waste any time with forumists' feedback (especially if it is not positive). Good luck.

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Huh. Well, this post was just so poorly thought out I HAD to respond - even though I am quite aware that the fool in question has claimed that he will not return!

Firstly: You claim that the MA team doesn't listen to any feedback or suggestions. In response to such, I'd like to point out that this "feedback" is most often DEROGATORY and brings no logic into the debate. Most often it begins and ends with name calling. Perhaps the team would actually take your input into account if you bothered to use what we like to call common courtesy!

Secondly: This mod is in their hands. Get over it. If you have complaints without useful feedback, go make your own mod (if you're even remotely capable of such a monumental, often THANKLESS, task) or find another mod that appeals to you. All these complaints about the lack of democracy are RIDICULOUS! Mods are made by MODDERS! I find the fact that they're slowing things down to ask the public what the last faction amazing! If they bothered, as the "Democrats" seem to be wishing for, to ask the public to decide on every single faction in the mod, guess what - THIS MOD WOULD NEVER GET STARTED. Because everyone has their own opinion anyways, and the arguments would be endless.

So, all said, I voted for Sevilla - not because I find the final choice disappointing, but because I feel that Iberian Peninsula's chaotic diplomatic situation must be properly represented! And, unlike what appears to be many of you - I DON'T CARE IF ANOTHER FACTION WINS THE VOTE. They all look good to me.

Great job Medieval Auctoriso team. Don't let the bad apples get to you - I'm as excited as ever for this mod!

This really has nothing to do with the thread but might I ask who decided provinces for northern Europe (i.e. Scandinavia)? To that person I'd like to say: Thank you:bow:
All the other mods have rather poorly divided provinces in Scandinavia (Norway and Sweden in particular) and it's nice to see someone putting some effort into the Scandinavian provinces as well.

My choice is Norway, because 3 factions on Iberian penisula is good enough and Kiev, Novgorod and Volga Bulgaria in the russian steppes r good enough too.
And Denmark was too much expansive in Vanilla so there is need for another one rival.

I went Norway for gameplay reasons

although Seville appeals to my imagination - how would affect getting a good reconquista between spain and the moors

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Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr

Slavic settlers entered the region in the 10th century and soon made it the centre of the Great Russian nation.

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Good joke, btw. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr

Arfrisco, you're naming factions that were insignificant at 1073.

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Bulgaria didn’t exist in 1073, but why not Serbia :inquisitive:? Weird politics, I will say, as Serbia was initial faction when we know about 21 factions’ slots, but now with 31 is out?!

But, why should I complain? After all, we make mod in Serbia… :beam:

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Originally Posted by Sarmatian

Serbia is in MTR, Bulgaria will be in other mods.

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Both Serbia and Bulgaria are in our mod, so why you posted here, anyway, my fellow Sarmatian? :whip:
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My last post in MA:
Good luck guys. You will need it, and knowledge.

I only like how you solved heraldry, Solo is great herald :2thumbsup:, but the rest of team…

I already wrote this, but now is clear: Balkan is septic hole! :thumbsdown: And I won’t imagine provinces in Balkan how they look…

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

With that said, I am going to end my participation here, so that you can go on with the mod, as it is a huge project and you should not waste any time with forumists' feedback (especially if it is not positive). Good luck.

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The same.

P.S.
Don’t spend time for answering; you’ll just waste time on typing which you can spend better.

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Bulgaria didn’t exist in 1073, but why not Serbia ? Weird politics, I will say, as Serbia was initial faction when we know about 21 factions’ slots, but now with 31 is out?!

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i just listed serbia as an example and i sort of understand why they didnt pick it but, instead they could have croatia or something elsa. also i now see no difference between mtr and ma since norway has won. if they wanted another catholic faction add burgundy since western europe is now empty(two factions for a 1/5 of the map, scandanavia is 1/15).the only difference is genoa but even thats not enough to make me choose this mod over the people that made rtr. also after seeing rostov-suzdal i really lost faith. sorry. i had such high hopes.

Hehe, yeah Ireland is a bad choice and it seems like a little bit of bias as to why it's in and maybe they were able to find more historical evidence for it opposed to other factions, but I think Ireland should cede and have Norway and Sevilla!

I would like to say something. The mod is your creation so the decision is yours. I am not of balkan descent, but the truth is the balkans of the middle ages was an ethnicaly diverse area with magyars, greeks, albanians, slavs, bulgars and vlachs, the states of moldavia, wallachia, bulgaria, serbia, the latin greek states and others all existed at one point during the time period. These states entered into conflict with the byzantines, mongols, hungarians, poles and each other. Units of said nations took part not only in battles that were of local significance but also at nicopolis, ankara, and tannenberg. Serbian cavalry in particular turned the tide at nicopolis and distinguished themselves at ankara angainst timur.

At the present italy has 4 factions. The balkans have hungary and byzantium, but these factions will probably be preoccupied elsewhere in central europe and anatolia, so there does seem to be a vacuum in the balkans and not having any faction here seems to deprive the Venetian, hungarian, polish, turkish and byzantine player of the enjoyment of fighting a full-fledged faction here.

I have the following suggestion, it may take some imagination. The kipchaqs were involved politically in the creation of the second bulgarian empire and the creation of wallachia and moldavia i think the first ruler of moldavia was actually of kipchaq descent, bassarab if i"m not mistaken, so i think it would be a good idea to give the kipchaqs provinces in the balkans as victory conditions, as well as giving them names and titles that suggest a link to bulgaria and wallachia/moldavia. I think this would make gameplay a little more interesting for eastern europe and lessen the balkan snub.

OMG I pity these modders I really do,

heres the upshot - its THEIR mod - they can put in whatever nations they like - get over it - or make your own mod

obviously theyve chosen these nations because they are the ones they want - and seeing as they are the ones donating all their free time to make it - then good on em

talk about a bunch of moaning myrtles

yeh Im disappointed cause Australias not in there - everyone knows we were an expansionist nation of aboriginal warbands :laugh4:

maybe you should stick one of the balkan states in - just to dry the tears

I now understand why the team said they weren't going to discuss their choice of factions...We haven't even seen any previews of units, features, etc. and people are already complaining...I think this could be a great mod if people would give it a chance. So what if they chose Ireland as a faction? I think Ireland sounds cool, and I for one will be playing as them when this mod comes out.

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Originally Posted by arfrisco

i just listed serbia as an example and i sort of understand why they didnt pick it but, instead they could have croatia or something elsa. also i now see no difference between mtr and ma since norway has won. if they wanted another catholic faction add burgundy since western europe is now empty(two factions for a 1/5 of the map, scandanavia is 1/15).the only difference is genoa but even thats not enough to make me choose this mod over the people that made rtr. also after seeing rostov-suzdal i really lost faith. sorry. i had such high hopes.

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Well, its good to see such an open mind. We haven't even released previews of units and new mechanics and yet you abandon ship. Well, have fun?

Norway has my vote.

I made a post in the other thread regarding why Norway should be chosen as the last faction slot, besides the fact that æ, as in Mediæval Auctoriso is a Norwegian Letter (well the danish got it too).

Anyways here is the link: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=119

PS: My main source is Wikipedia, but I have read alot of other books about the subject, besides I defy anyone who think wikipedia is wrong to supply another source proving it. Wikipedia is definitively one of the best sites on ze net, and the popular view many have that its a bad site is bullshit!

æ is a Latin letter, not Norwegian.

HAH!

I challange you to bring me one latin person to make claim to the letter!

If you manage that I will bring 10 million Scandinavians to claim it back!

My point beeing, that France is no longer Gallia/Gaul, because its been taken by the franks, see, in the same way that letter now belongs to danes and Norwegians, because after the last latin dude jumped over the pearly white fence, we invaded the letter and claimed it.

My point beeing "Even if the letter is a part of the latin alphabet, it is mainly in use in Scandinavia".

It's also used in Icelandic - with a different sound than in Norwegian, Danish or Faeroese. It still is originally Latin, though.

Anyway, I voted for Norway.

AHA!

Icelandic is a also known as Old Norse (Norwegian/Gammel Norsk), because the original settlers in Iceland was Norwegians (Iceland became a part of Denmark after Norway and Denmark became a union).

Well, this thread is not about the letter Ææ anyway, so I really suggest we leave it at that here and make a new thread somewhere if continuing discussion is that interesting.

Anyways, I think I should point out that the city of Trondheim should really be included in the mod (not included in the map in the intro). This was a very important city in Norway, and had great historic importance. Among other things this city had a shrine to saint Olav (Norwegian patron saint, father to King Magnus the first, died at the battle of Sticklestad on his way to take control of the strategic important trondheim). This was a important site for pilgrims in northern Europe that couldn't afford traveling to Jerusalem. This of course meant a increase of comerse in Trondheim.

Several battles have been fought over this city (Birkebeinerene won a important victory here), and it was definitively the most important city in Norway at the time.

Another thing that is important for the Norwegian faction (if Norway wins) is the belif in magic and specially in magic items, like weapons. I remember reading something from a battle where a king had a magic sword that was able to cleave a human head trough his helmet and down to his shoulders. This is again things that make Norway somewhat unique, even tough other people, like muslims also belived in magic and genies (1001 nights).

Next to that Wikipedia is wrong ... multiple times, maybe not on this, but on enough other things.

was i just called a moaning myrtle?

i thought i had a constructive suggestion in my last post by making the kipchaqs a little bit of a "generic" faction and giving their later family members bulgarian and vlach names and titles. they did take part in founding said states.

i enjoy playing as the turks, all that motivates me in this post is to make conquest of the balkans more interesting.

oops

To all people interested in this mod, do not be put off by the MTR thread-hijackers. While we at MA accept the choices they made for their mod and the factions they have included, they have proved to be very disrespectful to our mod. Unfortunately, the MTR crew have a very narrow minded approach to history, and are disilusioned by common yet incorrect historical ideas and interpretations. For example, they will say Kingdom of Ireland, good joke, hahahaha. So lots of other people that know nothing about the nation just jump on the band-wagon thinking they are clever, ridiculing Ireland as a faction. The truth is, Ireland, all bar the city of Dublin, was a united Kingdom of 1073. Someone in this thread statead the importance of Serbia in supplying its cavalry in major battles, well, the Scots pikemen at major battles such as Bannockburn consisted of mainly Irish allied soldiers and mercenaries.

I accept MTR's choice to add Serbia as a faction. It did indeed become significant later on in the Medieval period. It adds some spice to the Balkans. However, at MA, we researched Europe at 1073 and beyond very thoroughly, and came to the conclusion that Serbia did not merit a faction slot. It did come very close, we originally planned to include it before we thought better of it. The Balkans will still be one of the most interesting areas of the map in MA, we will use our cultural units system to represent all the cultures and their militaries in the area. Still, please do not be put off this mod by the likes of Duke of Serbia, they simlply do not accept that there were more than 30 factions deserving of a faction slot in medieval Europe, and most significantly to us at MA at 1073.

Just to point out the actual differences between MA and MTR. Pretty small faction-wise really.

Common Factions:

Papal States
Kingdom of Scotland
Kingdom of England
Kingdom of France
Kingdom of Leon-Castile
Crown of Aragon
Holy Roman Empire
Kingdom of Bohemia
Republic of Venice
Kingdom of Appulia-Calabria
Kingdom of Hungary
Kingdom of Poland
Kingdom of Denmark
Kingdom of Norway (probably)
Byzantine Empire
Kingdom of Georgia
Principality of Kiev / Rus
Novgorod
Moorish Amirate
Sultanate of Rum
Fatimid Empire
Volga-Bulgarians
Kipchaks
Principality of Lithuania
Golden Horde

MA Factions:

Kingdom of Ireland
Republic of Genoa
Kingdom of Cilician Armenia
Abbasid Caliphate
Khwarezmid Empire

MTR Factions:

Kingdom of Portugal
Serbia
Berbers
Khanate of Transoxiana
Timurids

I like the MA faction list much better than MTR's (though I am a fan of both mods), especially since they chose to include Genoa:2thumbsup: and (maybe!) Sevilla, which just makes more since than say the Berbers or unplayable Timurids, or Portugal, which IIRC wasn't a kingdom until the mid - 12th Century.

I hope that people stop going into MTR vs MA wars. This happened with RTR and EB and solved nothing.

They are two different mods with different aims. If you don't like what they're doing, tell them. But be respectful, as they don't get paid for their work and put in a lot of effort and time.

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Originally Posted by Caledonian Rhyfelwyr

. Someone in this thread statead the importance of Serbia in supplying its cavalry in major battles, well, the Scots pikemen at major battles such as Bannockburn consisted of mainly Irish allied soldiers and mercenaries.
.

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I guess that was me. I never suggested to take Ireland out, my idea was to make the Kipchaqs a faction with Balkan victory conditions (ie provinces needed for victory) and giving the family members of said faction names and titles that are vlach and bulgarian, since thay did take part in the founding of said states. This would give them a presence in the balkans gamewise ( since the victory conditions would make the ai invade that region )and make the area more challenging to take over. Just a suggestion.

We could give the Kipachaks victory conditions to encourage them to move into the Balkans, get four factions involved there (Venice, Hungary, and Byzantium). Could also help with this by modding the Kipchak AI a little. To be honest, that sounds like a very interesting Balkans with all those very unique factions, plus all the unique rebel units that will be found in that area. I really don't think the Balkans are being poorly represented in MA. Thanks for the suggestion anyway Beavis.:2thumbsup:

I think the Qipchak idea is a good one, very much worth considering, especiallu as I'm the guy who's doing most of the Qipchak research :2thumbsup:.

Another thing to consider is that I think there will be many nomadic and semi-nomadic steppe rebels in this area; Pechenegs, Allans, Bashkirs, Uzes, Oguz, Kimek etc.

It might be possible to have more than 30 factions, vlad added in 9 more to his mod without using the normans and saxns and it worked.

Hmm, he didn't try enabling the saxons, too, by chance?

Norway, plain and simple. Vikings kick arse! :boxing:

Hmm.... looks like Norway will be the final faction.....

Is the MA team planning on releasing any factional previews after the vote is over? And if so, will they be as detailed as the one released on England?

Dag nabbit, looks like Norway is gonna win this thing hands down. I was hoping for Seville. More Muslim factions to oppose the Catholic ones seems like it would give a stronger feel to the religious war between the two faiths.

i too voted for that reason but all these nubs want to play with their lol vikings.

Seems like some people are expecting a Norwegian 'viking faction' here... I don't think that will happen. Yes, they'll start with norse units available, but that's just about all there is of viking units.

What was Norway like in the mod's time period?

The description of Norway at the start of this thread gives you a good idea. It was a kingdom, but quite decentralized. Most people were farmers, but many also traded. Their military was based on levies; the land was divided in small regions, each responcible for equipping a ship with crew in wartime. In addition, the King had a body of professional soldiers called the Hird.

There was no feudalism. Farmers mostly owned their own land, and the 'nobility' consisted of the richest among them. Society was based around the family. A mans influence depended on the family or clan he came from, and his relation to other powerful families.

The judicial system was based on the Ting. This was simply a gatering of all 'free men', where laws were read aloud and issues of common interest was debated. Conflicts were also solved, and the lawmen would issue punishment on offenders, usually fines, but also outlawry.

Hm. Anything else?

Norway it is!:viking:

Now that the last faction is decided will the MA team be releasing a preview on it (or anything for that matter)?

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Originally Posted by Taedius

The description of Norway at the start of this thread gives you a good idea. It was a kingdom, but quite decentralized. Most people were farmers, but many also traded. Their military was based on levies; the land was divided in small regions, each responcible for equipping a ship with crew in wartime. In addition, the King had a body of professional soldiers called the Hird.

There was no feudalism. Farmers mostly owned their own land, and the 'nobility' consisted of the richest among them. Society was based around the family. A mans influence depended on the family or clan he came from, and his relation to other powerful families.

The judicial system was based on the Ting. This was simply a gatering of all 'free men', where laws were read aloud and issues of common interest was debated. Conflicts were also solved, and the lawmen would issue punishment on offenders, usually fines, but also outlawry.

Hm. Anything else?

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Largely correct, but I disagree with the ''quite decentralized'' statement. As Norway had a relatively weak nobility, the kings powers were quite strong, hence it was one of the more centralized states in Europe*, England developing the most centralized system in western Europe in the medieval period. Other than that good post.

*(as far as royal power was concerned, exception for the civil wars of course, and orders and edicts from the king would travel slowly through the difficult geography of Norway)

Geddi is right. "Decentralized" is the wrong word, the post written in haste. I was thinking about the Tings' position in the legal prosess, I expect. Something toadd to this is that the King didn't sit isolated in a castle (there weren't any), but traveled around continuously.

Thank you guys for voting, then I can officially announce that on the score of the poll, Kingdom of Norway will be our last playable faction. ~:cheers:

Don't be crestfallen if you voted for another candidate, it's not just vacant jazz that the intention belongs to our goals that we would like to build a consistent medieval strategical world and are going to attend to the given areas with equal enthusiasm and exactness let it be the Iberian rolling country, the Northern Russian woodlands or the foregoing Balkan-peninsula.

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Originally Posted by Augustus

Now that the last faction is decided will the MA team be releasing a preview on it (or anything for that matter)?

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Sorry, I can't give away our next step yet, but you're right, we are planning something of the sort, I mean the preview. ~;)

In the end, I'd like to render thanks to our own helping members as well:

Shifty - for writing the presentation of Sevilla, plus for the organization
Conn - for researching and writing the presentation of Norway
Solo - for creating the nice-looking maps, plus for his pieces of advice

That said, the poll is over. Well, without being overly sentimental, i must admit that it's really nice to see that you are interested in our activity in that rate. ~:)

I must say I am glad Norway won. :yes:

I am not so glad that the discussion in my fave mod has been standing still these last few days :thumbsdown: !

SO SAY SOMETHING :furious3: !

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Originally Posted by El-Wrongo

I must say I am glad Norway won. :yes:

I am not so glad that the discussion in my fave mod has been standing still these last few days :thumbsdown: !

SO SAY SOMETHING :furious3: !

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Problems behind the scenes El-Wrongo have hit the team hard, we are currently trying to solve them and get back on track.

Well I think "problems behind the scenes" sounds a little serious. The problem is manpower, really. Our team is simply too small, and relies too heavily on the motivation - and modding time - of a few individuals. If that fails, the mod progress will come almost to a grinding halt for some time, which happened a while ago.

democracy sucks, go servilla.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

So many choices! The voting for Parliament in North Korea is more democratic than this one.

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now thats funny :laugh4: