One third of the holocaust.

One third of the holocaust

Interesting only believe a few of them though but I guess we'll never know also the fact that you think the world might notice that over 4 years 1.5 million people were killed off. Then we have people who think it was a conspiracy theory. And that Hundred of thousands of families suddenly went missing. The only way this stuff could be true is if only a couple hundred families where killed and the rest where taken out of Germany/Poland. The only way any of this could be true is if the maker(s) of these videos found proof that half a million people were moved out of Germany/Poland during the 1940's.


Any one else have something to add?

Some things are kinda suspect, and some things are easily explained. But I am not burning my hands on this one. Take a few bulldozers and pull the whole thing to the ground, we don't need to remember that badly.

Nazist shit. So funny when they are trying to make them like document.


If author really had gone to Treblinka, he would have believed that on so small area smart Germans and Ukrainians killed so many people.

Deniers... sad.

I had to do a project on Holocaust Denial and I must say, they do manipulate the facts and data very well to fit their claims

This Holocaust body count argument reminds me an awful alot of the discussions surrounding the actual number of men present in the Persian army at Thermopylae and Gaugamela. Thanks to the lack of documentation or supporting evidence people can argue endlessly about those figures. Even reasonable figures are hotly contested. Back and forth, back and forth, blah blah.

It is rather futile to seek finality, let alone any kind of closure over this issue because people (or more specifically, historians) are going to argue over the actual number who died in the holocaust for the next... oh, several millenia or so. There's really no point or sense to the level of contentiousness, especially amongst non-historians with a personal bone to pick with the murderers or the victims. It makes it even more difficult when you consider the equally imprecise number of Gypsies, Poles, undesirables, etc. who were also deliberately dispatched during the Holocaust.

It really doesn't matter whether it was 1.5 million or 6 million. We know it was in the millions and more importantly we know the reason why they perished. The sad but oddly comforting truth of the matter is eventually the Holocaust will join the long list of mass murders commited through the ages and itself will become a footnote of history. Comforting in that we now have a reasonable means by which to gauge and predict the behavior and trends which can lead to such events.

Not that such predictors will change anything; nobody lifted a finger to help the people of Khwarazmia or the Armenians or the Tutsis. The moral crusaders of the world can talk the talk all they like. Unless they exhibit a willingness to sacrfice their own fortunes and fates to save the lives of others their cries of righting the wrongs is just alot of hot air.

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Originally Posted by Spino

It is rather futile to seek finality, let alone any kind of closure over this issue because people (or more specifically, historians) are going to argue over the actual number who died in the holocaust for the next... oh, several millenia or so. There's really no point or sense to the level of contentiousness, especially amongst non-historians with a personal bone to pick with the murderers or the victims. It makes it even more difficult when you consider the equally imprecise number of Gypsies, Poles, undesirables, etc. who were also deliberately dispatched during the Holocaust.

It really doesn't matter whether it was 1.5 million or 6 million. We know it was in the millions and more importantly we know the reason why they perished. The sad but oddly comforting truth of the matter is eventually the Holocaust will join the long list of mass murders commited through the ages and itself will become a footnote of history. Comforting in that we now have a reasonable means by which to gauge and predict the behavior and trends which can lead to such events.

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Hmm very interesting but you must think that over the next several millennium that i think in 500-700 years no one will even think about this I'm just trying to gather facts at the moment and thats usually what i do when I'm not in school. so just think of the body count 1.5million compared to 6million the 1.5 is supposed to be just one single camp.

These guys are obviously not living in Germany. They'll throw you in jail over there, where Holocaust denial is a crime. In fact, they just sent some guy in his late 60s to prison for just that.

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This Holocaust body count argument reminds me an awful alot of the discussions surrounding the actual number of men present in the Persian army at Thermopylae and Gaugamela. Thanks to the lack of documentation or supporting evidence people can argue endlessly about those figures. Even reasonable figures are hotly contested. Back and forth, back and forth, blah blah.

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But there is some documentary evidence from the Nazis , covering how many people were sent to 4 extermination camps during one year and how many were sent during two weeks of the next year .
Though of course the extermination camps were only one part of the holocaust , the mobile extermination groups also provide documentary evidence of haow many "sub-humans" they killed .

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These guys are obviously not living in Germany. They'll throw you in jail over there, where Holocaust denial is a crime. In fact, they just sent some guy in his late 60s to prison for just that.

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Ah of course , "the Hitler we loved and why" ....hmmmmm ......jailed after being convicted on 14 counts of incitement to racial hatred wasn't it .

How about all the people that lost their families? Three-quarters of my family didn't return after being carted off by the Nazis. What -- they were sent off to a vacation on the Wannsee and didn't want to come back? :no:

Hmm ... I endured the first three of these film clips (I say "endured" as the voice of the narrator kind of stirs up unhealthy fantasies of violence ... it's amazing and scary how just hearing the voice makes you want to smack a person...).

The whole approach very much reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy "theories". The "maker" of these films resorts to "raisin picking" i.e. he picks some snippets of the whole thing and tries to poke some holes by presenting "facts" that he of course does not bother to back up - like the well case - he asserts that the well of course must be contaminated without providing any evidence that this would be the case (what was the actual set-up of the well? how deep was it? what was the nature of the ground/soil). He just states matter-of-factly that the water would have been contaminated, just as he states matter-of-factly that the prisoners all had an urban background and therefore of course had no clue that their "made up story" (that's what he accusses them of more or less directly) made no sense.
Extremely sloppy work, but usually enough to put some doubts in some minds - and that's what this is all about.

yeh it does remind me a bit of the old 9/11 conspiracies.

On BBC2 a fortnight ago they showed a conspiracy files: 9/11 and i have to admit, when you look at it form the acute angle they view the event from, the conspiracy theories which usually seem utter balderdash, they actually seem extremely plausible, and in many cases even uncannily true.


sorry to "Hijack" ( sorry, what a disresepctful pun) the thread, but did any body else se this show?

Post your views here

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Hmm ... I endured the first three of these film clips (I say "endured" as the voice of the narrator kind of stirs up unhealthy fantasies of violence ... it's amazing and scary how just hearing the voice makes you want tosmack a person...).

The whole approach very much reminds me of the 9/11 conspiracy "theories". The "maker" of these films resorts to "raisin picking" i.e. he picks some snippets of the whole thing and tries to poke some holes by presenting presenting "facts" that he of course does not bother to back up - like the well case - he asserts that the well of course must be contaminated without providing any evidence that this would be the case (what was the actual set-up of the well? how deep was it? what was the nature of the ground/soil). He just states matter-of-factly that the water would have been contaminated, just as he states matter-of-factly that the prisoners all had an urban background and therefore of course had no clue that their "made up story" (that's what he accusses them of more or less directly) made no sense.
Extremely sloppy work, but usually enough enough to put some doubts in some minds - and that's what this is all about.

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Well said, Ser Clegane. My fascination is with the reasons why some people are receptive to this sort of stuff on the one hand, and with the motivation of the makers, who go to such extraordinary lengths to 'prove' their moot and historically irrelevant points on the other hand.

It sort of serves as a necessary reminder. A reminder that there is enough hatred, prejudice and militant stupidity in this world to last us another Stone Age.

Well it's a what if, the holocaust is a symbol, the ultimate genocide, but there have been more genocides, it makes those seem less bad. And there is a lot of propaganda, the gaschambers in auswitz are replica's build after the war, who in his right mind would rebuild a thing like that unless it serves a purpose.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Hmm ... I endured the first three of these film clips (I say "endured" as the voice of the narrator kind of stirs up unhealthy fantasies of violence ... it's amazing and scary how just hearing the voice makes you want to smack a person...)

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Very interesting well i finished watching all these and the guy does have a very creepy voice that like makes you want to commit violence towards my fellow man... but any ways some facts he states entirely true and mathematically impossible to do some of these things but then again you need to look at the finer pictures of who's family got hauled off and who survived it was german accounts that said 6million from all work/death camps died and allies and jewish said it was more like 11-16million where i think is kinda far fetched since what is it like 12million something jewish residents in germany/poland at the time i cant remember but i think germany had about 5million while poland had about 6.5-7 million

Why don't conspiracists ever deny that there ever was a Roman Empire? Or deny that Napoleon was a real person versus just a foreign fabrication? I mean, the physical, written, demographic, testimonial evidence for those two is tiny compared to the overwhelming amount there is for the Holocaust.

Not to draw this topic off course, but could there be a teeny bit of anti-semitism involved in denying that the most well-documented and intensly studied event of living memory happened at all?

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the gaschambers in auswitz are replica's build after the war, who in his right mind would rebuild a thing like that unless it serves a purpose.

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No, the major gas chambers at Auschwitz were left intact very much as they were found, in their blown-up state. A gas chamber at the smaller camp was reconstructed after the war. The Germans had closed it and used it for different purposes already during the war. It was later reconstructed for educational, not zionist-capitalist-bolshewist, purposes. This was clearly stated as such when I took a guided tour there.

Edit: JKarinen. You seem genuinely interested in this subject. It is always good to keep an open mind, and to let each generation of historians scrutinize the historical sources they have. A lot is known about the Holocaust, a lot isn't. By all means use your own judgement.
Generally accepted figures are that some 4.5 to 6 million Jews were murdered.
it was german accounts that said 6million from all work/death camps died and allies and jewish said it was more like 11-16million where i think is kinda far fetched since what is it like 12million something jewish residents in germany/poland at the time i cant remember but i think germany had about 5million while poland had about 6.5-7 million

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Originally Posted by luigi VI di Fatlington

No, the major gas chambers at Auschwitz were left intact very much as they were found, in their blown-up state. A gas chamber at the smaller camp was reconstructed after the war. The Germans had closed it and used it for different purposes already during the war. It was later reconstructed for educational, not zionist-capitalist-bolshewist, purposes. This was clearly stated as such when I took a guided tour there.

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Gah didn't know that, that's the problem with findings from people with an agenda. Where I read it should have been a slight indication that they might have.

If you're really interested in the subject of the holocaust and just how big and well coordinated the whole scheme was, watch the movie Conspiracy by HBO Films not the one with Mel Gibson. It centers on recreating the meeting at Wannsee(sp), going by a single set of notes and minutes that survived from that meeting.

Btw conspiracy as the title refers to that used to wrestle power from all the necessary agencies to make the final solution happen...it has nothing to do with the tin hat wearers who say it didn't happen.

JKarinen sorry but you are not right.

You are making mistake very common into describing holocaust. You are describing holocaust as killing Jews and only Jews from Poland and Germany.

Some facts
1)Not only Jews were killed; Poles, Gypsies (count by most sources as Poles), Russians (mostly POWs) and many other nations.
2)Killed Jews did not come from only from Poland or Germany. There were Jews from Poland, Germany, Hunguary (over 250.000), France, Holland, partially Russia and rest of Balkans.
3)There really were absolutely not 6,5 - 7 million of Jews in Poland. Before war there Jews were about 8-12% community, which gives us about 3.000-3.500.000
4)Math by normal man is not math by nazist. Normal man never put 120 men into wagon, nazist do that without problem. People into Auschwitz didnt have one bed per one man, you must remember it too.
5)Auschwitz it wasn't just a one camp -there were some big camps and many smaller, about 40 km around. So there were enough place.

All in all number of 6 millions killed only into Poland is very possible.
Of course by Poland I understand Poland from 1939, which had different (absolutely unlawful on west) borders than today - some camps were not in Poland and they are being count by nazist to camps into Germany, like Stuthoff or Ravensbruck. If we count Poland into todays border, number would be higher.
I won't even mention Russia where every possible crime were commited by Germans, Ukrainians, Russians or anti communist legions like Dutchmen. There were killed at least 27.000.000.

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One third of the holocaust

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I still cannot imagine how anyone can believe in such revisionist crap.


I wonder how those people will explain the sudden drop in Polish population during the war ?

Something tells me those several million of people didin't go shopping to France or are still playing 'hide and seek', but were murdered.

Over 6 million of people don't just disappear.:wall:



But we are living in the world where flatearthers, Stalin apologists or people who believe that a TV set harbours very little people inside are more than few.:whip:

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This Holocaust body count argument reminds me an awful alot of the discussions surrounding the actual number of men present in the Persian army at Thermopylae and Gaugamela. Thanks to the lack of documentation or supporting evidence people can argue endlessly about those figures. Even reasonable figures are hotly contested. Back and forth, back and forth, blah blah.

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Completly diffrent things. People questioning the numbers presented at the battles you talk of can hardly be called revisionists because of that. I made a major post in I think the topic you talk about quoting and citing historians that have nothing in common with the holocaustdeniers.

You can not call yourself a historian if you do not question and scrutinize every statement in the sources you use in your work.

Kalle

Where do these people think the jews WENT? Madagascar?

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But there is some documentary evidence from the Nazis , covering how many people were sent to 4 extermination camps during one year and how many were sent during two weeks of the next year .

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Indeed. Heavens above, we still have the railway timetables. How banal do you like your evil?

That site is a laughable waste of bandwidth. :yes:

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Originally Posted by KrooK

.... or anti communist legions like Dutchmen.

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Do you mean the Dutch men who joined the Waffen SS ?

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

Do you mean the Dutch men who joined the Waffen SS ?

:balloon2:

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Only two things I hate in this world....people who are intolerant of other peoples culture and...

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Originally Posted by Dutch_guy

Do you mean the Dutch men who joined the Waffen SS ?

:balloon2:

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Hey I am not that bad :laugh4:

Come to think of it, when it involves communists what does it matter with whom you march with, be it the devil himselve :smash:

Yes I mean members of Waffen SS recruited in Holland.
Sorry for mistakes into english.

I don't know what to think about the holocaust. On one hand I know there is no possible way so many people just disappeared. Something awful had to have happend and I don't doubt that. Sometimes though I doubt the manner in which things happend and the scale of which things happend. Also the fact that in the end even though the Soviets did so much they all got away with it as well as the ethnic Germans who were prosecuted so horribly after the war.

Sometimes what I see of how some Jewish people exploit the situation makes me sort of angry and sad as well. Some who would rather try and make money off of German people who feel guilty about something they probably didn't have anything to do with.

I talk to many German WWII vets and a few Waffen SS vets and I have to say they are all good people. I am great friends with them.

My two cents.

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Originally Posted by cegorach

I still cannot imagine how anyone can believe in such revisionist crap.


I wonder how those people will explain the sudden drop in Polish population during the war ?

Something tells me those several million of people didin't go shopping to France or are still playing 'hide and seek', but were murdered.

Over 6 million of people don't just disappear.:wall:



But we are living in the world where flatearthers, Stalin apologists or people who believe that a TV set harbours very little people inside are more than few.:whip:

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Well, as a 1/4 Pole myself I can tell you many Poles might have vanished during the Soviet ocupation.Let us remember that Stalin was a boucher himself and he managed to kill 8 million people in Russia alone and after the war it would have been easier for Communists to hide their crimes than germans did. After all, there wouldn't even have been a Nurenberg trial had the Soviets been accused of war-crimes.
It's still stupid to compare genocides and war-crimes on a body-count basis.....for me "The Holocaust was the worst crime of the century because XXXXXXXX people died" it's sheer bigotry. It's pain and suffering were talking about, not numbers.

Alexander of Macedon
Hoss was very good man to. He was extremely polite to his jewish home servants. Which did not stop him from doing his job.
Hoss was Auschwitz commander.

[QUOTE=Cronos Impera]

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Well, as a 1/4 Pole myself I can tell you many Poles might have vanished during the Soviet ocupation.

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True, but those losses are between 0,5 and 1,5 million.

It is true that overall Poland lost about 10-12 million citizens (from 35 million in 1939) - but from those 'only' 5-6 million were counted as Polish/Jewish ( only the Nazis seen a difference between a Catholic Pole with Jewish grandparents and 'ordinary' 'sub-humans').

Only recently it was decided to FINALLY count the number of people lost during the war, because fate of many is still unknown.

There are many reasons for such a big drop in population of Poland - from genocide and warlosses to forced conscription ( Red Army and Wehrmacht), child abduction ('nordic' children were taken from orphanages and hospitals by Germans), changes in borders, population transfers and emigration. Also many Poles were left abroad after the country was occupied by the Soviets.

2nd WW decomposed the ethnic structure of the entire Central-Eastern Europe after all and in Poland everyone lost someone close (my grandfather's sister died in the Warsaw Uprising 1944).:book:

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Originally Posted by KrooK

JKarinen sorry but you are not right.

You are making mistake very common into describing holocaust. You are describing holocaust as killing Jews and only Jews from Poland and Germany.

Some facts
1)Not only Jews were killed; Poles, Gypsies (count by most sources as Poles), Russians (mostly POWs) and many other nations.
2)Killed Jews did not come from only from Poland or Germany. There were Jews from Poland, Germany, Hunguary (over 250.000), France, Holland, partially Russia and rest of Balkans.
3)There really were absolutely not 6,5 - 7 million of Jews in Poland. Before war there Jews were about 8-12% community, which gives us about 3.000-3.500.000
4)Math by normal man is not math by nazist. Normal man never put 120 men into wagon, nazist do that without problem. People into Auschwitz didnt have one bed per one man, you must remember it too.
5)Auschwitz it wasn't just a one camp -there were some big camps and many smaller, about 40 km around. So there were enough place.

All in all number of 6 millions killed only into Poland is very possible.
Of course by Poland I understand Poland from 1939, which had different (absolutely unlawful on west) borders than today - some camps were not in Poland and they are being count by nazist to camps into Germany, like Stuthoff or Ravensbruck. If we count Poland into todays border, number would be higher.
I won't even mention Russia where every possible crime were commited by Germans, Ukrainians, Russians or anti communist legions like Dutchmen. There were killed at least 27.000.000.

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yeah I messed on that also but I'm not to big with European theater and what went on there i kinda like the pacific my self maybe it's cause i live near it but I still think it's a more intriguing topic

But that was my bad i did a little research after this and found that i misled you guys with my statistics(going by what i thought was plausible and forgot that other people were killed) any ways you make a good point

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Originally Posted by cegorach

2nd WW decomposed the ethnic structure of the entire Central-Eastern Europe after all and in Poland everyone lost someone close (my grandfather's sister died in the Warsaw Uprising 1944).:book:

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Thats sad my G-ma lost her uncle in that

Yep and my grandparents cousine.

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Originally Posted by KrooK

Alexander of Macedon
Hoss was very good man to. He was extremely polite to his jewish home servants. Which did not stop him from doing his job.
Hoss was Auschwitz commander.

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Which makes me wonder what should he do if that is his job? It's hard to tell really.