Re: The Multiplayer Sticky

Well I've not been posting on the mp forums because it seems I can't express an anti-"rome and m2 suck, stw rules all" opinion without getting warned, but the sticky I just saw is ridiculous and TBH just shows the topic creator doesn't understand the context at all.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=80293

Thats the thread.

The quote comes from:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=78597

Note how all replies to the thread were joking and everyone understand YM is just a charismatic guy. I quoted it in my sig because it truly made me lol, I found it funny. Other people quote others in their signatures. Why should I do not be allowed to do the same.

Please also note how despite this big announcement, the moderator fails to even see where the quote has came from (since s/he hasn't even posted in the thread itself), and thus totally fails to grasp the context.

I'm sorry but what sort of modding is it that you say "this sort of stuff is absolutely not tolerable"...but not even know where the quotes from and to not say something in the thread.

Furthermore YM posted that quote one whole month before the mod even said anthing, I mean was this big announcement just because s/he was bored or what.

I would also like to add the quote was removed from my signature and the rest of the code the mod screwed up and just left without even PMing me saying "I'm not sure how to fix it, apologies"...they just carried on as normal which I find rude.

To close, I want to point out if the quote would have been another one of YM's quotes such as:

Noob A new player to the game who lacks the skill and knowledge of an experienced player. Noob is a term that is not defined by time, but by skill. A player who has been playing the game for a long time can still be a noob.

Then I'm almost positive nothing would have came from it, its purely because the vets don't like it that theres actually some new playeras of mp of the org who arn't still playing on their commodore 64s. The mp section stinks of anti-m2 players. Allowing us to elect AMs was a good step, however you should have done the same with the actually mod position because someone from the mp community would have looked at that thread, understood the context, has a laugh, and moved on.

I agree, the MTW2 MP forum needs a MP player to mod it. It doesn't matter who it is, but it needs to be someone from the community, not just someone who can mod a forum very well, most of the time these people don't understand the MP "world".

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Originally Posted by Stig

not just someone who can mod a forum very well, most of the time these people don't understand the MP "world".

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While I can certainly understand where you are coming from, having someone who is fully involved in the MP-community moderate the MP-forum also has its downsides.

Looking at some of the current thread (and a lot of discussions I have seen in the past years) it is rather obvious that there are a lot of old and new rivalries within the MP-community that easily get over the line and become very personal - as a Backroom moderator my impression is that with regard to this the MP-forum even surpasses the Backroom.
Under these circumstances it is much easier for somebody who is not that heavily involved to stay neutral.
:bow:

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Originally Posted by Monarch

the moderator fails to even see where the quote has came from (since s/he hasn't even posted in the thread itself), and thus totally fails to grasp the context.

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The problem is that, by putting it into your sig, you actively removed the context. Just because a couple of people know the context does not mean that everybody does, turning your sig into a statement that can be (and by some people is) considered to be inflammatory - which does not seem to far-fetched, taking into account some exchanges in the MP-forum.

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Originally Posted by Monarch

I would also like to add the quote was removed from my signature and the rest of the code the mod screwed up and just left without even PMing me saying "I'm not sure how to fix it, apologies"...they just carried on as normal which I find rude.

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IIRC you were given the option and the time to remove the quote from the sig yourself and explicitly refused to do so - and now you expect an apology because the staff member who then had to remove part of the sig, did not do it with enough care?
Interesting...

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Looking at some of the current thread (and a lot of discussions I have seen in the past years) it is rather obvious that there are a lot of old and new rivalries within the MP-community that easily get over the line and become very personal - as a Backroom moderator my impression is that with regard to this the MP-forum even surpasses the Backroom.

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I would say that the multiplayer community by it's very nature is more competitive and thus should be given different treatment to the other forums. I'm not saying all-out flame wars should be allowed, I'm just saying that perhaps the community should be given more a free reign seeing as rivalries form a great part of the multiplayer aspect of Total War.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Under these circumstances it is much easier for somebody who is not that heavily involved to stay neutral.
:bow:

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To be fair I think Stig meant that impartial members of the multiplayer community would moderate the forums better than an 'outsider' who doesn't really understand the context or relationships things are said in. Hence you get annoying situations like in the thread below this one where I was 'warned' for using names like 'Stigglet' or 'Stiggles' to address Stig; the moderators did not ask the posters in question, just instantly assumed the worse and went overboard. Such a situation would not have happened with a multiplayer moderator who was actually aware of who was who.

If what you say is true, why are police recruited from the local area instead of somewhere at the other side of the country where they can be 'impartial' from the local squabbles? It's because the best moderator of any heated situation is someone who knows what the people involved are like, and can use their personal knowledge and experience with the people concerned to resolve the situation in the best possible manner.

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

The problem is that, by putting it into your sig, you actively removed the context. Just because a couple of people know the context does not mean that everybody does, turning your sig into a statement that can be (and by some people is) considered to be inflammatory - which does not seem to far-fetched, taking into account some exchanges in the MP-forum.

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In which case any signature that is aimed at a 'general audience' should be removed, seeing as it could possibly be construed as offensive. Thus even innocuous statements from famous philosophers referring to 'foolish men' or another derogatory phrase should be scrapped too, seeing as the viewer could possibly be offended when he thinks the given phrase refers to himself.

My point is that if you start censoring phrases referring to no-one in particular (I don't think any of the STW 'veteran' community would associate that statement with him/herself, and your statement about them 'not knowing the context' seems contradictory given that the statement is about people who form the core of the community and thus would be in the best position to know its context given their communal standing) because their lack of aiming/context may offend someone, this level of censorship of protectionism would very quickly chase away the already reduced multiplayer community in my opinion.

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While I can certainly understand where you are coming from, having someone who is fully involved in the MP-community moderate the MP-forum also has its downsides.

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I know, but I believe the idea was that the forum would have 2 Assistant Mods. They would then contact Rob, who would then take steps (as he had the powers to close threads). Since we only have 1 Assistant Mod now (the other already resigned), and this AM isn't the most active one, this isn't really working atm.

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Originally Posted by Monarch

Note how all replies to the thread were joking and everyone understand YM is just a charismatic guy. I quoted it in my sig because it truly made me lol, I found it funny. Other people quote others in their signatures. Why should I do not be allowed to do the same.

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Okay, time to stick my neck out and thrown in my two cents worth:

I personally was rather offended by that quote. Not a lot, but I was more than a little miffed. And while I won't claim to speak for anyone else, I'd be surprised if I was the only one. (Most likely no one has bothered to say anything about it until now.)

Now that I've seen the thread from which the quote was taken, I admit I better understand the context. You know what, though? It's still kind of insulting. (Although I *do* understand the sentiment; I won't deny us "old-timers" can be blowhards at times. ~;)) And it's even more offensive when someone uses it as their sig, since then even the context is removed.

If the quote had simply remained in that thread in the M2 multiplayer forum, then it might not have mattered. By putting it in your sig, however, you spread it throughout the rest of the Guild as well, thus exposing it to the forum's general population.....and therefore greatly increasing the likelihood someone is going to be offended by it. There's no way you could have been unaware of that possibility (as I know you to be a reasonably intelligent fellow), so I really don't think you should be that surprised by the consequences.

so the sticky was because of the sig, not the thread ym started? was tito even aware of the thread, or just taking a shot at monarch?

guess i can't edit in this forum..

anyhoo...

why was this totalwarizm not pointed out in the sticky as well?

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RPGers Players that have taken on a role playing identity, and use it despite making themselves look like fools. IE: The Wolves are RPGers. HowLwowowlLWlwl.

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:coffeenews:

Same rules apply to all the forums with a few exceptions, for example seen in my sig.

I'm competitive, but I don't play MP. Its because my time is in limited bursts of activity so I can't fairly apply myself to a match and not let my allies down by logging off to do real life duties.

Nor do I see being competitive allows one to be rude, a flamer or less of a gentleman. Even if you are going to kill someone you can do it in a polite manner. So I don't see why the MP forums should be allowed anymore leeway then say the Backroom.

We don't see everything and it is up to the individuals to police themselves. In fact a good forum is where the moderators act like traffic cops not the SWAT team. But a good forum is because the patrons self moderate themselves. So gentlemen the obvious answer is to play by the rules and you won't see any moderators aside from them helping you to merge threads and show you where to find information and acting as a patron and discussing issues.

In short:

'Do as you please, please as you do.'
:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Martok

Okay, time to stick my neck out and thrown in my two cents worth:

I personally was rather offended by that quote. Not a lot, but I was more than a little miffed. And while I won't claim to speak for anyone else, I'd be surprised if I was the only one. (Most likely no one has bothered to say anything about it until now.)

Now that I've seen the thread from which the quote was taken, I admit I better understand the context. You know what, though? It's still kind of insulting. (Although I *do* understand the sentiment; I won't deny us "old-timers" can be blowhards at times. ~;)) And it's even more offensive when someone uses it as their sig, since then even the context is removed.

If the quote had simply remained in that thread in the M2 multiplayer forum, then it might not have mattered. By putting it in your sig, however, you spread it throughout the rest of the Guild as well, thus exposing it to the forum's general population.....and therefore greatly increasing the likelihood someone is going to be offended by it. There's no way you could have been unaware of that possibility (as I know you to be a reasonably intelligent fellow), so I really don't think you should be that surprised by the consequences.

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I remember reading that thread a while back, I missed it being quoted though. It's not really offensive IMHO, though I suppose it depends on how you look at it. Us miserable old blowhards can usually laugh it off when such things are said, merely shaking our sticks and gurning somewhat, while ranting on about fantasy units. Despite all of this I can understand the admin dealing with it in the way they have. Fairness and consitency are important.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

Hence you get annoying situations like in the thread below this one where I was 'warned' for using names like 'Stigglet' or 'Stiggles' to address Stig; the moderators did not ask the posters in question, just instantly assumed the worse and went overboard. Such a situation would not have happened with a multiplayer moderator who was actually aware of who was who.

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It was not a moderator, it was me. An overboard reaction would be a ban. Another overboard reaction would be a guy nailed by the receiver because he made a typo by accident. To mention a case: one typed Kocomoc instead of Kocmoc. Another being a guy arguing and presenting himself to be friendly and respectful. The used honory equivalent of san, is used to address kids though. A hidden snipe, a tactic similar to namecalling or one to push the argument to your position (your postcount is too low/high, your avatar is scary, you are just a kid, I'm a vet, you think you are better because you are a vet, you are a n00b, yadayada).

If you are buddies and have a nice conversation, call each other 'Tos'. However many discussions are not just chats and said topic is a volcano. The MP scene is full of hostilities, many are incidents, some start as a little friction, others are designed by purpose to rile up, sometimes one uses a scapegoat to cover his own blunders and vile and sometimes all these techniques are used and started years ago, which results in very bad feelings, deep rivalries and character assassination. Who can answer: which straw broke the camels back?

I'm around since Winter 2000 (wow: I'm using it myself :elephant:), I've seen and heard more than I like. 'But Tos, isn't that not just YOUR opinion?' No, it isn't. I secretly wish it were, than I would be out of here for years. It's hilariously fun to see the back of another camel break. The people stacking the camel, rout on first supposed impact and then resort to back- and blackchat to maximise the blame on others, when the sun doesn't shine bright enough for them though. :scastle3:

Back to the topic:

I don't know what it was in that topic. Maybe just a friendly bit, maybe another case of all the little gripes we had in the past (which by now aren't little anymore). At any rate: the topic wasn't really suited for that, we can do without extra misunderstandings.

There were four posts. I used the Warn button for each four, sent a private 0 pointer and said that the name was Stig, not Stiggles or Stigglet.

After that there was a PM exchange explaining why those private zero pointers were sent. No harm was meant, Stig wasn't offended, so no escalated follow up arguments about this next year :daisy:

Monarch.

I removed the part from your sig. The tool in the ACP only displays a small window and thus I accidently broke the rest. Sorry.

t1master

RPGers Players that have taken on a role playing identity, and use it despite making themselves look like fools. IE: The Wolves are RPGers. HowLwowowlLWlwl.

Where is this coming from?

Well, if some people are offended by a sig, and you're asked to remove it, just change it.... Why should you care? :gah:

My opinion is that in a competitive games, sometimes you can make jokes to the other guy (I don't know if there's an english word for that). And that's actually a good part of the fun!

But not always:

I remember when I was playing Volleyball (real life). With friends, we could say real "insulty" things, because we were acknowledged friends, and we did have a tone of voice that clearly indicated that it was just a game "How comes you have two left arms", "or you should really stop eating this much, obviously you can't jump anymore" sort of things. It was REALLY different when we were playing with total strangers. At that moment, even the slightest "triumphant knowing smile" could get people angry...

And just to illustrate that again, I just read a thread where someone was talking about allies acting weird, like never coming along, or sometimes coming along, but acting stupidly: he took an exemple of him allied with the french, who after coming along in a battle and helping him break a wave of opponents did withdraw without any logical reason. Someone answered something like "do you want a stereotypical joke about french allies?"

Well, had I knew the guy, I wouldn't have felt anything at all. Probably had made a joke about that with him. But I don't know the guy. And I'm French. For a split second I got angry. I'm not anymore (a split second is quite short), but I do know some people who would've run to conclusions and put another log in the fire which had started there (at least in their head)....

I think the same rule apply everywhere: if you're "good minded", you can say it, if someone is shocked by something you write and you do not understand why, you can get explanations, and if you can't work out something with offended guy, well, if this is all about a signature, what the h**l?

Anyway, you have totally the right to feel offended by offended people. Oh me head... :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

And just to illustrate that again, I just read a thread where someone was talking about allies acting weird, like never coming along, or sometimes coming along, but acting stupidly: he took an exemple of him allied with the french, who after coming along in a battle and helping him break a wave of opponents did withdraw without any logical reason. Someone answered something like "do you want a stereotypical joke about french allies?"

Well, had I knew the guy, I wouldn't have felt anything at all. Probably had made a joke about that with him. But I don't know the guy. And I'm French. For a split second I got angry. I'm not anymore (a split second is quite short), but I do know some people who would've run to conclusions and put another log in the fire which had started there (at least in their head)...

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I think that in such cases, it is best to ignore those types of comments, which you did. I don't think the poster intended anything by it, it was just a casual and impulsive observation. Also he used the word "stereotypical" which indicates that he was fully aware that such jokes are just that, and not to be taken seriously. :bow:

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Originally Posted by Cambyses II

I think that in such cases, it is best to ignore those types of comments, which you did. I don't think the poster intended anything by it, it was just a casual and impulsive observation. Also he used the word "stereotypical" which indicates that he was fully aware that such jokes are just that, and not to be taken seriously. :bow:

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I know, and as you said, I did (almost) ignore it. But by simply seing my own very first reaction, i.e. a burst of (instantly calmed down) "what the f***??" anger translated by a "sure, go ahead" post, I can imagine that some people are likely to react strongly to things which appear "innofensive" in the eyes of most others: hence the example. As we are suposedly grown people with enough education to manipulate a computer, a wee bit of discipline should solve all problems without needing to be tasteless: by explaining ourselves for instance and not staying stubbornly on a "I'm the one who's entirely right" position!

EDIT: And yes, I should have paid attention to the "stereotypical" word. You're right! Another problem when one's not speakins in his mother's tongue!

~:cheers:

that quote was in the same thread monarch gleaned the vets quote from tosa.

i don't find any of the quotes offensive. infarct, i think they're most funny, my opinion you see.

i only pointed it out for the sake of consistency, not to highlight that the new mod didn't even read it. if one quote from that thread is not sigworthy, than surely it shouldn't be worthy for forum viewing at large, whatever the context. mostly in terms of offending the more sensitive vets among us, who obviously have spent little time in the lobbys, if mere jest and light hearted ribbing causes grief. :balloon2:

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Originally Posted by t1master

that quote was in the same thread monarch gleaned the vets quote from tosa.

i don't find any of the quotes offensive. infarct, i think they're most funny, my opinion you see.

i only pointed it out for the sake of consistency, not to highlight that the new mod didn't even read it. if one quote from that thread is not sigworthy, than surely it shouldn't be worthy for forum viewing at large, whatever the context. mostly in terms of offending the more sensitive vets among us, who obviously have spent little time in the lobbys, if mere jest and light hearted ribbing causes grief. :balloon2:

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uuuuh... I wouldn't say necessarily so. sometimes, the context can change the meaning of a sentence. For instance, when someone emphasise something to make people "get the idea", and says precedently that he will emphasise: this will not have the same effect than repeating the emphasised thing alone, in a sig or a quote.

(Edited to make the sentence clear)

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Originally Posted by t1master

guess i can't edit in this forum..

anyhoo...

why was this totalwarizm not pointed out in the sticky as well?

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So many totalwarizms and other issues weren't pointed out.

A pretty striking difference is that the this quote was not part of a signature (which 'joker' is the first to update his' now?)

A comment (whether it's the 'wells' twisted truth that will hurt but has to be said because weeeeell..and of course I'm not going to fess up about myself..I'm a friendly person but weeelll..he was very bad and did everything wrong, a little pun, a joke, friendly banter...) is taken out of the topic and then put into a signature to scream it from the rooftops. Nada Naya Nada.

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Vet - A player that played in the Shogun/MTW days, that feels as though the new group of players (and game) and poor in comparison to the 'good old days.' Vets usually suffer from delirious nostalgia, as well as hype their skills over their actual performance.

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In my memory, the Wolves played STW and MTW too and did compare and comment. No further comment for now.

1 this very statement also applied to the Wolves (whether that's realised or not).
2 there's always been commenting and comparing on each game. Critical too. that's not a problem, swearing and personal attacks were. One other reason why topics escalated here and the .NET was created. Didn't everyone jump ship and swim to Freedom Harbour? Yet, another person from a different colour is commenting now, it goes too far I agree, but not more than what we had before, certainly not at first. And now it is a problem for the same people? Where is the consistency?

I've seen anti-mizu attacks too, no comment on fair or not for now, why are those not reported? Where is the consistency?

I know why the Wolves case is explicetely mentioned. The Forum Admin is a mizu, anti-Wolf, biased, inconsistent and evil. Am I right? A supposed inconsistency that's consistently pointed out.

Winter 2003. Wolf-Magyar Khan's account was borrowed without confirmed explicit permission (normally you'ld call this hacking, but that wasn't really the case, whatever it was: disgusting) and used to rile up. Krasturak was the colateral damage, but the real target was another jab at Magyar Khan.

The Forum Admin TosaInu invested hours in tracking down the 'borrower'. His reward for the effort was a jab from Magyar: 'So called 'honorable' people are not jumping on me saying that I did it'. And of course also from other sides, because Tosa lacked fun and was so harsh. Sure, we need another weeks and months of tabloid editions, no further comment for now. Mind you: the account was banned for a direct offense, there was no IP ban, the backdoor was open for a new start.

Another sample? That same period, there was an effort by a part of the MP community, involving Wolves, to make a mod for MTW. A PR problem was discovered (no details for now) and reported to me. One comment would suffice to blow the whole project out of the water, especially as the relation wasn't all that great that time (no further comment for now).

Instead the riled up was calmed and a private e-mail was sent by me to the Wolf responsible for the PR, explaining the problem. A Konnichiwa, a few lines with might and mays and a Ja mata. No namecalling, no attacks, no offence.

The response was a jab, of course: I'm the Nazi, b0rgqueen, biased, a mizu who ... the STW patch, a bookburner, owner of a pitbul, Stalins reincarnation, a horsethief and so on (to make it clear, that was not said in the e-mail, but before, during and after). So it's only natural that I'm the only sensitive person who saw the comment and made an issue (that was mentioned). It was a hard to notice one indeed, not spotted by me though and no further comment for now :elephant:

But the problem was fixed and the project could continue :jumping: . Did it ever get anywhere? Or am I shot for nothing? Don't answer, I know.

Swallow and have a cookie Tosa.

Want me to light more lamps over the last 7 years or would that cause too much damage for egos?

Peoples' perceptions can be shaded by their feelings. One usually can't control how they feel, but you can control how you think. Among those that have ill feelings toward one another, rest assured that an ambiguous statement or one made in "jest" will be interpreted in the worst way possible. And with the current clan climate, does anyone doubt it would not be?
I'm not involved in these clans, know only bits & pieces gleaned from posts in this forum. However, I do work in a correctional institution (for the last 23 years), and I'm kind of familiar with the interactions of gangs, sociopaths, and other social misfits. Some people in here need to work on their inter-personal relationship skills. If you don't know what that means, google it, you might learn something useful.

Hence, my ruling on this signature.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

It was not a moderator, it was me. An overboard reaction would be a ban.

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Nah mate, an overboard reaction would have been doing anything at all... hence our situation.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

To mention a case: one typed Kocomoc instead of Kocmoc. Another being a guy arguing and presenting himself to be friendly and respectful. The used honory equivalent of san, is used to address kids though. A hidden snipe, a tactic similar to namecalling or one to push the argument to your position (your postcount is too low/high, your avatar is scary, you are just a kid, I'm a vet, you think you are better because you are a vet, you are a n00b, yadayada).

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*massages forehead*

I think you miss what I'm saying. I know Stig. I address him as a friend. Not in Japanese. Not as a snipe. Not as a pink elephant that has been here a long time (?)... please remove the warnings in my profile that are present for your mistake in perception and not mine.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

If you are buddies and have a nice conversation, call each other 'Tos'.

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'Tos'? Erm, how about this: I call Stig by his nickname and we pretend this embarassing moderating incident never happened?

Important note to Tosa: the user of Elmarkofear is being referred to as 'Elmo' all over these boards... as you may note 'Elmo' is not his allocated username. I think these flagrant uses of NICKNAME-TWEAKING are poorly-disguised snipes at his character and I feel I must speak up for him. I demand that you edit all references to him in this most callous manner, as you have so protected Stig from my derogitory bashing of his name. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

Not in Japanese.

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Did I say you did? No I didn't. I listed samples of snipes in the past. Little things, until it's enough.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

Did I say you did? No I didn't. I listed samples of snipes in the past. Little things, until it's enough.

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Ah, but did I say you said I did? You also made no reference to pink elephants but I still mentioned that as an example.

Although I'm glad I broke you down sufficently for you not to engage me anymore and just quote one sentence in a percieved wrong. Now please remove the unwarranted warnings that are staining my good character.

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

Ah, but did I say you said I did?

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

I think you miss what I'm saying. I know Stig. I address him as a friend. Not in Japanese.

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

You also made no reference to pink elephants but I still mentioned that as an example.

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

wow: I'm using it myself :elephant:

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A little pun directed at myself, someone has to do it.

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

Although I'm glad I broke you down sufficently for you not to engage me anymore and just quote one sentence in a percieved wrong.

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Sorry to disappoint you.

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

Now please remove the unwarranted warnings that are staining my good character.

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They'll fade off within a month.

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

[STATEMENT AIMED AT TOSA]I think you miss what I'm saying.[/STATEMENT AIMED AT TOSA] [STATEMENT ABOUT ME]I know Stig. I address him as a friend. Not in Japanese.[/STATEMENT ABOUT ME]

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Have I made myself clearer? :)

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

A little pun directed at myself, someone has to do it.

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That's great mate; now delete those warnings please. I have just established that said 'punishment' was unwarranted and that they are an unfair stain on my otherwise glorious reputation... I have to lead by example you know.

Meh I know Guy, he knows me. We both know that we can't be bothered with what we think of eachother ... and next to that we still respect eachother (sort of)

That might be true, but nevertheless, this is the Org and the Org forum rules apply. In case of a dispute, it's best to adress yourself in private to the moderator or admin involved. Off course, a public discussion can have it's benefits, but at the end of the story, it's the Org-staff that decides how the forumrules are interpreted. That's what you agreed on when signing up here.

You can disagree and state that you are not at all pleased by a particular decision, but you cannot give the staff orders, like guyfawkes5 just did.

Whether you like it or not, Tosa and his team are boss in here.

Imho, there are only two options: a) accept that as a fact and behave according to it ; b) leave.

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Originally Posted by AndresTheCunning

...but you cannot give the staff orders, like guyfawkes5 just did.

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I did say 'please'. And it's hardly 'orders' seeing as Tosa can just ignore me... which is what he's doing right now, seeing as the warnings are still there and he hasn't responded.

I think he responded already:

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

They'll fade off within a month.

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:bow:

I think he didn't since I asked for them to be removed.

:2thumbsup:

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In case of a dispute

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That's the strange thing, there is no dispute

I think he'll respond within a month :coffeenews:

I just think it's funny how the rules are so rigidly adhered to in the original dispute above, and yet when the tables are turned (this instance) suddenly the rules are not so important anymore.

To be honest I really don't much care about the warnings Tosa, leave them there if you want... I just hope this escapade shows something to the others. :clown:

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To be honest I really don't much care about the warnings Tosa, leave them there if you want... I just hope this escapade shows something to the others.

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What do you want to show?

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Want me to light more lamps over the last 7 years or would that cause too much damage for egos?

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hands tosa a match...

wouldn't bother my ego one bit, carry on please. :balloon2:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

... I just hope this escapade shows something to the others. :clown:

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Oh indeed, it shows something to others ... but not so much about TosaInu.

***

It's interesting to be standing back from all of this after being down in it for a few years--quite a different perspective. Is it my imagination, or are staff expressing themselves in more detail these days?

:yes: I like that.

@guyfawkes

Mate, just drop the issue. It is completely irrelevant what you intended your comments to be; they breached the rules and you've been warned for it.

Before you ask what rules you've breached, Tosa's word is law :laugh4:

Seriously, the warning is insignificant and will not last past the month that it has been applied for (Tosa could have sent one that went on your record but he did not). Just accept it and move on.

:bow:

But then in a thread called MP Losing Appeal a certain member who also happens to be the member of a certain clan, of which someone else who is important on this forum is also part, insulted people as well ... and as far as everyone knows that first member didn't recieve a warning, while others were told to drop the issue


strange, no?

Mods can't take care of what they don't see.

If you feel that a post is offensive, use the 'report post' button to do something about it :yes:

Sorry for being so irritating but:
If you say mods can't take care of what they don't see, how on earth could someone warn Guy for calling me Stiggles and Stigglet. As I wouldn't report it.

But Tosa saw it ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stig

But then in a thread called MP Losing Appeal a certain member who also happens to be the member of a certain clan, of which someone else who is important on this forum is also part, insulted people as well ... and as far as everyone knows that first member didn't recieve a warning, while others were told to drop the issue


strange, no?

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Hello Stig,

I know the thread, I know the people. There have been a few general posts by me to drop it.

Finally the topic was closed.

There also have been curtain operations yes, just like the private zero pointers to guyfawkes5. We keep an eye on the Watchtower for public disputes, if there are none: then it will stay private. There's no other way to find out.

A big thank you to the people who kept their cool.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by t1master

wouldn't bother my ego one bit, carry on please. :balloon2:

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I understand what you mean t1master and I agree.


The statement summarises the problem very well, when read in a different way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

I have just established that said 'punishment' was unwarranted and that they are an unfair stain on my otherwise glorious reputation... I have to lead by example you know.

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How's a Personal Message a punishment?
The perceived reputation drop was brought on you by yourself. You received 0 warning points and the community wasn't aware of it until you posted about it.

Quote:

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I just hope this escapade shows something to the others.

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To me it shows that you have little understanding of the forum rules and the warning system used here.

R'as

Quote:

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How's a Personal Message a punishment?
The perceived reputation drop was brought on you by yourself. You received 0 warning points and the community wasn't aware of it until you posted about it.

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Alright you caught me; I was hyperbolizing. Well done. :2thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

There also have been curtain operations yes, just like the private zero pointers to guyfawkes5.

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The point is, mate, that there should have been none in the first place, minor or otherwise. But we have already established that your word is 'law' so I guess that sorts that argument out, although I don't think you can say you were defending forum rules in your actions anymore...

I'll reiterate the situation for those who have thrown some misguided opinions into this: I have not breached forum rules, just Tosa's 'opinion'. That's the point I was trying to show.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

I'll reiterate the situation for those who have thrown some misguided opinions into this: I have not breached forum rules, just Tosa's 'opinion'. That's the point I was trying to show.

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That's well understood. What you seem to fail to notice is that Tosa was trying to disarm a situation that may have become a flamewar. The discussion in the MP forum was already inflamed. While it's certainly subjective whether what you have done is offensive, Tosa as the Admin has to take care of things that may be perceived as offensive. Since we also have minors reading this forum, this means that sometimes potentially offensive things are edited out.
Keep in mind that those minors usually lack the practice in debate that adults generally show. Also, most persons reading a thread at .org will not know about yours and Stig's relation. We can't look into your heads, we only read what you post.
I think TosaInu Pm'ing you was a fair move. In all the heat of battle somebody else might've just edited without telling you or might've given you real warning points. Some things that may seem "over the top" have to be seen in relation to forum's policy.
TosaInu is seen as a fair but strict Admin by the majority of the members here. From my personal experience with him he's not on any power trip, nor is he keen on policing your (or anybody else's) every step.
Call it his "opinion" or "common sense" he acted on. That doesn't mean it's wrong. Implying that he only warned you because he doesn't like you or because you have an MP clan rivalry is uncalled for.

Personally I don't have a grudge with you and I didn't mean to lecture you with my posts. I only felt that some correction of perception was needed.

:bow:

R'as

P.S.: hyperbolising and irony are great rhetoric tools, alas they often get lost in a text-only medium

What's wrong with all of this is that you talk as if I was saying something that could be considered offensive... acting a bit 'reckless' if you will.

I was calling Stig by a nickname.

If unifomity is to be kept in the forum rules, then you must also request that everyone referring to ElmarkOfear as 'Elmo' to edit their 'possibly offensive statements' out, that everyone referring to me as 'Guy' must refrain from 'tweaking my username in a possibly offensive way'.

This is an overtly stupid situation, if Tosa had just done the sensible thing and just removed the warnings after I told him what was what, I would have just shrugged my shoulders and thought 'at least he had the common sense to realise his error'.

But now....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

What's wrong with all of this is that you talk as if I was saying something that could be considered offensive... acting a bit 'reckless' if you will.

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I understand your sentiments. I was trying to keep it abstract.
Try to see it like this: better be to rigid at one time than to be too lax at another time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

This is an overtly stupid situation, if Tosa had just done the sensible thing and just removed the warnings after I told him what was what, I would have just shrugged my shoulders and thought 'at least he had the common sense to realise his error'.

But now....

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Please stop dwelling on the "warnings". I thought we had agreed that you didn't really receive any warning points, non that are public anyway.

I don't have a clear opinion on the nickname issue. Hardly anybody addresses me with my full nickname, the majority of them put the apostrophe in the wrong place. Most just call me R'as and that's how I sign my posts. I don't get my knickers in a twist if anybody spells it wrong. Obviously Stig doesn't care much either. ElmarkOFear once had an account with name of Elmo, iirc.
I think the problem with "Stiglet" is that it's close to "piglet", though. You don't need much fantasy to imagine what can come from this.
As a last point I'd say that you would'nt have been "warned" if the discussion hadn't been like it has been. In an overtly aggressive atmosphere there's no place for friendly bantering.

R'as

Quote:

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Please stop dwelling on the "warnings".

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As I said before, I really don't much care but it has turned pretty much into a matter of principle. And seeing they're the core of the issue I've brought up (which you have chosen to participate in discussing), I don't see how I could do anything else.

Quote:

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I think the problem with "Stiglet" is that it's close to "piglet", though. You don't need much fantasy to imagine what can come from this.

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Guess what... Guy sounds like something else too (hmmm I wonder what). If you use your imagination anything can be 'offensive', and if I wanted to imply Stig was a baby pig (erm?), I could probably find better ways to insult him than that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

Guess what... Guy sounds like something else too (hmmm I wonder what). If you use your imagination anything can be 'offensive', and if I wanted to imply Stig was a baby pig (erm?), I could probably find better ways to insult him than that.

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I agree, there're other ways.
It probably boils down to this statement:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TosaInu

However many discussions are not just chats and said topic is a volcano.

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Posting in a thread is not chatting because it can be read by others and you can't control what they make of it. Better to remove anything that could make an already horrible situation even worse.
Try to imagine you were the Admin here. Some of the problems you'd have to face are: You want the board to be friendly to CA so that they participate but you don't want to censor negative opinions about them. Or, you want more Multiplayer discussion on the board but you don't want to have the old personal rivalries and the aggressive tone of the past. Pretty difficult, don't you think? Sometimes you'd have to make decisions that aren't popular with everybody but someone has to do it.

I'd advise you to file the received "warning" under "experienced gained". This is just what happens when things get hairy at the .org, where 12 year olds and 60+ year olds converse together. Old farts aren't allowed to use their walking canes on the kids runnings through the halls. Try to not take it personal, regardless of the past quarrels you may have had. You weren't the only one warned and it was just a preemptive measure.

God, I'm talking like a principal, I've to stop. :wall: :beam:

R'as

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

I think he didn't since I asked for them to be removed.

:2thumbsup:

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Aw come on, he did answer.... The answer was "no, I won't remove them now; However, they'll go automatically if you beheave good". Is that so much an issue?

I mean, even if I do understand that it was only about two friends speaking together (and in that case, you were quite polite, I would've done way worse! :sweatdrop: ), now you know, and in a month or something, you'll be pure white again!

Is it this so much important?

EDIT: you put it in a matter of principles. Please, let it go, it's not about Tosa, it's not about you or Stig. I understand how strong a principle can be. But clutching so hard to it is out of proportion, or even worrying, don't you think? More (forgive me Tosa if I'm wrong): I think that when Tosa acted, he had a good reason to do it, and that "canceling his action" should appear to much like "I was wrong when I did it". He did explain himself about why he did it. And there were good reasons. So now, if this "warning" does lead to "further steps", it could be an issue, but otherwise, why care?

People, I'm not offended ... THERE IS NO PROBLEM

You guys are stretching this argument to cover a 'broader issue'. You try to make it about the overall forum and how in other instances it may have been justified, but I am talking about this instance and how I have been warned for a mistake of perception and not my own bad behaviour.

When referring to my problem do not make this about the overall 'job' of an administrator or the overall etiquette of the .org, just refer to it just as it is: me referring to someone by their nickname and an admin too proud/stubborn to admit his heavy-handedness in spite of a solid defense and the listing of other instances where 'nick-tweaking' is tolerated.

You may say I'm taking this too far, although I have yet to see anyone asking why Tosa has not removed the warnings. Thirty seconds in the admin panel to fix it... yet he does not. Ever wonder why guys?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

You guys are stretching this argument to cover a 'broader issue'. You try to make it about the overall forum and how in other instances it may have been justified, but I am talking about this instance and how I have been warned for a mistake of perception and not my own bad behaviour.

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If I'm correct you were not officially warned (well not publicly). If I'm correct, I wonder who here doesn't know now that you and Stig know each other and that the precise stuff you're referring to was not an issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

You may say I'm taking this too far, although I have yet to see anyone asking why Tosa has not removed the warnings. Thirty seconds in the admin panel to fix it... yet he does not. Ever wonder why guys?

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No I don't wonder why. I'd rather take my time enjoying what I can read someplace else, to be honest with you. And I'll be consistent.

I tried once to give my opinion about your topic, which is: "aw c'mon, let go of it, it's not some big injustice that will have bad consequences".

After re-reading this thread, I'm now thinking that you probably won't let go until someone finally agrees fully with you and/or your "warning" disappears, and this whatever anybody could say (I was hoping actually that R'as posts would calm you down).

As Descartes said: "Try to change what you dislike in the world. After a while, if it doesn't work, change yourself to not dislike what you dislike anymore" (well, he wrote that probably differently, and in french)

I won't try again, I think you have all what is needed in front of you to sort this out.

Cheers

Well I see that I have yet again reduced the responses to 'it isn't that big a deal'... and if you don't like watching then you're free not to read or post here mate.

Quote:

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I was hoping actually that R'as posts would calm you down

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Yes, because I am sitting here in front of the monitor with a puffed-up red face smashing the keyboard with my fists repeatedly in my fury at being wronged on an internet forum.

*insert your own rolleyes smiley here*

Well, this is going to nowhere...

Is it about time for certain people to drop this issue already?

Have you meet DevDave yet because he really could teach you something about what is a warning and what is an alert. Really nice guy too, and has a great family... he likes squids. :bow:

Although both are done through the same mechanism and generate the same private messages, warnings and alerts are not the one and the same.

A warning has points of 1 or more attached.
An alert has 0 points attached. It is a heads up that what you are doing may breach rules and/or that the current thread is heated enough so tone it down and help cool the situation.

I believe you are wanting an alert removed so that your total warning points change by nothing, on a private message that no one else knew about until you brought it to their attention. So zero minus zero, to change nothing on something that no one knew about, on an item that naturally expires in a month? :coffeenews:

Nope, I know Guy, he's a guy of principles. I wasn't offended, so the alert shouldn't have been given anyway

Heh, I find it endlessly amusing that all the mods attempt to their linguistic skills to dance their way around the subject but they still fall flat on their faces.

Tosa warned me for no wrongdoing of my own, I simply want it removed.

I'm actually considering blowing that previous sentence up to HUGE font size since the majority of the replies seem to overlook it, or try to make it my fault by saying 'it wasn't that big a deal' or 'get over it'... if it isn't that big a deal then don't read or reply, rather than offending my eyes with such transparent tripe, or posts that run rings around themselves trying to scrape the blame off Tosa and laying it onto me.

:faq:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FAQ

The staff :policeman: has also the ability to edit all messages by all users, but we rarely use it in order to avoid misunderstandings as to the identity of the originator of any given text. If a post's content is essentially objectionable, it will be deleted instead.
...
Although The Guild :holmes: does not and cannot review the messages posted and is not responsible for the content of any of these messages, we at The Guild :bobby: reserve the right to delete any message for any or no reason whatsoever.

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Now it could have been done for no reason. The reason I saw it was done was because it was a heated thread that needed cooling off, and failing that locked. :dancinglock:

Your sacrifice was appreciated for the Greater Good of the Tau er Org. :flowers: :gathering: ~:grouphug:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

Now it could have been done for no reason.

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I never said that he couldn't do it for no reason; you guys could make rules that you want to ban people based on whether or not the moderators like their usernames and that I couldn't do anything seeing as you guys pretty own this particular treehouse.

The only fault I have is that Tosa said he did what he did in the name of the forum rules when that was clearly not the case, and now all we have is people piling into the thread, ignoring the argument at hand and just repeatedly moaning 'let it go' in spite of the fact no-one made them view the thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by guyfawkes5

I just think it's funny how the rules are so rigidly adhered to in the original dispute above, and yet when the tables are turned (this instance) suddenly the rules are not so important anymore.

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Tosa could have easily removed the warnings but his ego prevents him from doing so. His ego prevents him from doing so because there is no logical explanation for him not doing so other than egotistical reasons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

The reason I saw it was done was because it was a heated thread that needed cooling off, and failing that locked.

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So to make the thread cool off, he warned a poster to refer to another with his full username, never mind moderating any actual aggressive language. Phew... sticky situation resolved. :2thumbsup: