Saudi Rape Victim Sentenced to 90 Lashes

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,256980,00.html

So the problem with Islam is simply a small issue with some radical fundamentalists? Things like this in Arabia and most other arab nations seem rather state sanctioned.

All I can say is that I understand the economics and the politics behind our(the US's) special relationship with these "people", but morally it is an abberation.

I just hope that when we ween ourselves off of oil, we leave our muslim "allies" to the hell they have created for themselves, and our children don't judge us too harshly. :no:

Its no surprise really. For so many professed historians on this website its amazing how so few know so little about the beginnings of this belief system. I guess Muhammad had some devine power because he even has many secularists defending his creation. I bet this thread gets locked in a bout 4 posts since Islam is not allowed to be scrutinised anywhere these days. :juggle2:

Sickening really.

It is sickening what people do in the name of faith.

So PJ and DD, based on this child brides in Utah are they the responsibility of all Christians and Jesus?

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

It is sickening what people do in the name of faith.

So PJ and DD, based on this child brides in Utah are they the responsibility of all Christians and Jesus?

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Neither, Mormans. :laugh4: Joseph Smith created the Church of Jesus Christ (about the only part of Jesus in the "faith" is in the name) of Latter Day Saints in the mid 1800's from gold tablets he found but mysteriously dissapeared when questioned about their authentisity. Google Joseph Smith and do some research before you lump his "beliefs" into Bible believing Christianity. Mormanisn is about as Christian as Budism. But we're not talking about that cult, we're currently discussing the one that happens to be involved in a lot of nasty little incursions all over the face of the globe. :beam:
But the underage marraiges probably would not have been a problem for the Prophet either since he had "marital relations" with a 9 year old (he did wait a couple of years, he married her when she was 6. He must have been busy "converting" Medina at the time).

In the UK an Islamic council has come up with guidelines on how schools can fit in with their religion. Of course it is up to the schools and the majority in the country to accede to their needs, and of course no alteration is required of Islam.

Saudi Arabia is one of the worst examples of Islam. The sooner they run out of oil and influence the better.

~:smoking:

They should follow the proper punishments as set down in the bible , lashes for rape victims is just too lenient .
Sharia law is lightweight , they should get more biblical .

Don't confuse an excuse with an actual reason.

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

In the UK an Islamic council has come up with guidelines on how schools can fit in with their religion. Of course it is up to the schools and the majority in the country to accede to their needs, and of course no alteration is required of Islam.

Saudi Arabia is one of the worst examples of Islam. The sooner they run out of oil and influence the better.

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We invaded the wrong country. If we were ever to invade a country because of the oppressiveness of its brand of Islam, it should have been Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Iran and Iraq are waaay down the list.

SAUDI KIDNAP, RAPE VICTIM FACES LASHING FOR 'CRIME' OF BEING ALONE WITH MAN NOT RELATED TO HER

YES IT IS NUTS! ITS THEIR LAWS…SO WHAT DO YOU WANT, A HUMAN RIGHTS OUTCRY?

THERE SHOULD BE…BUT I DOUBT IT VERY MUCH. :shame:

Well, I don't think it's because of their religion... Why? Because we did the same thing here in europe a couple of centuries ago... You can still see the remains of that when there are discussions on rape - there are still a few who deep down blame rape on "those dirty whores".

Saudi Arabia is just a couple of centuries behind, they never experienced the rise of liberalism we had here in the west.

BTW, about Muhammad... One of our kings(Norway) married a 10 year old and got her pregnant at that age too... This was around year 1100. It's simply the way society was back then, believe it or not....When you'll probably die at the age of 30, you're not going to wait till you're 25 to get married, are you?

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Originally Posted by Fisherking

YES IT IS NUTS! ITS THEIR LAWS…SO WHAT DO YOU WANT, A HUMAN RIGHTS OUTCRY?

THERE SHOULD BE…BUT I DOUBT IT VERY MUCH. :shame:

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I can assure you that human rights organsations are very active in this area. I have posted some appeals in this very forum.

Experience tells us that too much publicity at the early stages often ensures the mullahs get defensive and demand the worst punishments as an example they cannot be swayed by "western" ideals. It is usually only when all avenues have been exhausted that Amnesty, for example, starts trying heavy publicity.

In contrast, with western democratic governments which abuse human rights, it is often more effective to get the publicity machine in high gear right away, as they are less likely to be stubborn if they can characterise the situation as a mistake.

That's why you tend to hear more of a song and dance against western abuses. But don't for a moment think we allow this kind of thing to go unchallenged.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

They should follow the proper punishments as set down in the bible , lashes for rape victims is just too lenient .
Sharia law is lightweight , they should get more biblical .

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Such devotion defending your favorite religion, but what exactly does the bible say about rape victims and what should be done to them, nothing.

A thought provoking article from a women who lived the life of a Moslem wife.

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When we landed in Kabul, an airport official smoothly confiscated my US passport. “Don’t worry, it’s just a formality,” my husband assured me. I never saw that passport again. I later learnt that this was routinely done to foreign wives —

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle1480090.ece

Not altogether OT but a valuable insight into cultural and religious differences.

Saudi Arabia is a backward oppressive misogynist regime peddling extremist brand of Islam?

In other news, bear found defecating in woods, Pope in "I'm catholic" shock.

But yeah, if it gives PJ a thrill, the SA regime truly sucks. For the sake of spoiling the hang of DD's trousers*, wahhabist Islam also sucks.

* but we are still just good friends

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Originally Posted by Fragony

but what exactly does the bible say about rape victims and what should be done to them, nothing.

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Does the Quran specify how to treat rape victims? I have some doubts that it says that rape victims should get the whip - but please feel free to provide some Quran-quotes to convince me otherwise.

The question is, is this abuse based on religion or is based on an extremely patriachic society that we also see ion other regions with other religions (e.g., rural areas in India)? (to be clear - barbaric acts like these should not be tolerated, no matter what the roots are, but I believe that it might be a good idea to at least try to understand what the roots are).

What's the penalty for 'sucking' in Saudi? :inquisitive: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

Does the Quran specify how to treat rape victims? I have some doubts that it says that rape victims should get the whip - but please feel free to provide some Quran-quotes to convince me otherwise.

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Beats me to be honest, I never said there was. Apparently the bible does, waiting for Tribes.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Such devotion defending your favorite religion, but what exactly does the bible say about rape victims and what should be done to them, nothing.

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No, it does tell us. A woman who gets raped in the city is to be put to death since it's obvious she didn't scream for help. She didn't protect her father's (or husband's) property. If the crime happens in the countryside the woman isn't punished, there might not have been anyone to hear her cries for help. The rapist gets the death penalty in any case.

Study holy books. It's good for you to see how absurd they can be. :book:

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Originally Posted by Spetulhu

No, it does tell us. A woman who gets raped in the city is to be put to death since it's obvious she didn't scream for help. She didn't protect her father's (or husband's) property. If the crime happens in the countryside the woman isn't punished, there might not have been anyone to hear her cries for help. The rapist gets the death penalty in any case.

Study holy books. It's good for you to see how absurd they can be. :book:

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lol that's pretty damn evil :laugh4: That's a new one for me, that in the new testament or the old?

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

For so many professed historians on this website its amazing how so few know so little about the beginnings of this belief system.

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Don't blame the belief system, blame those who commit these kind of cruel acts in the name of it.

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Does the Quran specify how to treat rape victims? I have some doubts that it says that rape victims should get the whip - but please feel free to provide some Quran-quotes to convince me otherwise.

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Been a while since I read it, but I don't think there is a specific passage IIRC.

EDIT: These are the only passages I can identify with mentions of rape.

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And the commanders from among the people of Pharaoh said: "Will you let Moses and his people corrupt the land, and abandon you and your gods?" He said: "We will kill their children and rape their women; we will be supreme over them."

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And We have saved you from the people of Pharaoh, they were afflicting you with the worst punishment; they used to kill your children and rape your women; and in that was a great trial from your Lord.

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And Moses said to his people: "Remember God's blessings upon you that He saved you from the people of Pharaoh. They used to inflict the worst punishment upon you, and they used to murder your children, and rape your women. And in that was a great trial from your Lord."

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Then, when the truth came to them from Us, they said: "Kill the children of those who believed with him, and rape their women." But the scheming of the rejecters is always in error.

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None really call for the punishment of rape victims. :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

What's the penalty for 'sucking' in Saudi? :inquisitive: :laugh4:

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Ah, there was an article in the Guardian on islamic sex counselling a while back. Struggling to keep this within org rules, oral love is apparently acceptably Islamic, but religious opinion was divided on err, at what point Allah required the act should end.

I am NOT making this up.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Ah, there was an article in the Guardian on islamic sex counselling a while back. Struggling to keep this within org rules, oral love is apparently acceptably Islamic, but religious opinion was divided on err, at what point Allah required the act should end.

I am NOT making this up.

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Self evident surely? :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

We invaded the wrong country. If we were ever to invade a country because of the oppressiveness of its brand of Islam, it should have been Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Iran and Iraq are waaay down the list.

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The difference here is between regimes that are co-operating, and those that are not co-operating. The Saudis co-operate - Iraq, Afghanistan and Iran do not.

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Self evident surely? :laugh4:

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uh-huh

http://skeptically.org/sitebuilderco...g.w560h784.jpg

sorry had to

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Originally Posted by Fragony

lol that's pretty damn evil :laugh4: That's a new one for me, that in the new testament or the old?

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Just guess, it can't be that hard.
Besides, I wouldn't say it's outright absurd, since in a city there are many people who could hear her scream and help(yes, I know there are also shock moments etc, but we have a new testament now, don't we?). The new testament version would be that God sees her heart(and whether she wants it or not) and will then judge her after her death. If only there was a new Sharia law about love and peace...

Well, makes you wonder whether people there even know what "love" is, I mean, do these men really "love" their women? I thought love was some kind of fundamental human feeling but some people on earth seem not to know what that is or at least do not base their marriages on it and prefer to base them on lust.:no:

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Originally Posted by Husar

Well, makes you wonder whether people there even know what "love" is, I mean, do these men really "love" their women? I thought love was some kind of fundamental human feeling but some people on earth seem not to know what that is or at least do not base their marriages on it and prefer to base them on lust.:no:

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Err, the idea of marrying for love is quite a new one, and a fairly minority view?

Yer peasant and yer lord might have married to get a good worker, or to cement an alliance, but love didn't come into it.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Such devotion defending your favorite religion, but what exactly does the bible say about rape victims and what should be done to them, nothing.

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Off the mark as usual, my friend. The woman was sentenced not because she was raped, but because she was in a car with a man who was not her husband or direct kin. Some of the rapists were given sentences of 10 months to five years in prison. All this is not based directly on the Quran or the Hadith, which require, among other things, that rapists be stoned.

You may be surprised to hear there is something like the Hadith which is considered a source of law beside the Quran. It means 'tradition'.

There is a Hadith that speaks of rape at the time of the Prophet. Again, you may be surprised. The stance taken by Muhammed, a.k.a. the 'caravan robber' to quote that other profund Islam expert, Dev Dave, is not as primitive as one might think.

From a Hadith narrated by Sunan Abu Dawud who lived two hundred years after the Prophet and compiled 41 ahadith books :

'One day (at the time of the Prophet) a woman left her house to go and pray at the Mosque. On her way she was met by a man who forced her to have sexual intercourse. The woman screamed while the man raped her. After he raped her the man ran away. A group of men (who accompanied the Prophet on his flight form Mecca to Medina) passed by the girl and she said to them (pointing in the direction of the man running) “that man just raped me”. They then ran after him and caught him and when face to face with the woman she said “yes that was the person”. They went to the Prophet and the man said “Yes Prophet it was me who did this”. The Prophet said to the girl “go now, God has already pardoned you”. The Prophet then said to the man (while appreciating his confession) “stone him”. He then said “Actually, he has already learnt his lesson and if someone learns their lesson all the people of Median will understand”.'

Of the mark, I didn't even shoot. Anyway, truly fascinating. What does the hadith say about multiple personality disorders?

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Originally Posted by Fragony

Of the mark, I didn't even shoot. Anyway, truly fascinating. What does the hadith say about multiple personality disorders?

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I fear you will find few soothing words in it. :book: :no:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

I fear you will find few soothing words in it. :book: :no:

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How odd, you seem to be soothed by them all the time, funny how it works.

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Originally Posted by Fragony

How odd, you seem to be soothed by them all the time, funny how it works.

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No way.

I try to demonstrate that Saudi law practice diverges from what you might call the original message of Muhammed to his contemporaries*. We should bear this in mind, just as we should when we discuss the Bible or any other 'holy book', and not copy the mistakes of the litteralist believers of any creed.

*That is, if there has ever been a historical Muhammed. The earliest sources we have date from one hundred years after his supposed lifetime, and some Islam experts think he is a construct or an invention of the ninth century expansionist Arab elite.

Odd that once again the Bible is brought up in a topic about Islamic extremism and traditional law.

Sure the Bible may say that treatment is in order for a rape victim, but I beg of you to produce a case where that treatment was seen through. Oh, and provide the date.

I can find some early historic reference to the utter brutality of secular people, does that make modern day secularist the devil incarnate and on equal footing with Islamic traditional law?

No don't do that AdrianII, an obvious zing should be countered with wit not reason. Do what you do best make me say omgwtflol

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Originally Posted by Fragony

No don't do that AdrianII, an obvious zing should be countered with wit not reason. Do what you do best make me say omgwtflol

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I'd love to. But not everyone would catch on, you know. ~D

Remember way back when I posted a hell of a funny cartoon from The Guardian about the Danish cartoon row, and some members thought it was fascist propaganda... :dizzy2:

Crikey the Gruniad and fascist propaganda in the same sentence. :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

I'd love to. But not everyone would catch on, you know. ~D

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Oh the burden of brilliance. Since you are in doublebarraledwordshotgunmode, would love to have your opinion on this article if you have the time.

http://www.humanistischverbond.nl/op...ezing2006.html

Kinda related in an unrelated way of which I am not sure how it relates to relativity, relevant nonetheless.

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Originally Posted by Pannonian

We invaded the wrong country. If we were ever to invade a country because of the oppressiveness of its brand of Islam, it should have been Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Iran and Iraq are waaay down the list.

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Never a truer word spoken.

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doublebarraledwordshotgunmode

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Holy smokes! If that ain't a blatant attempt at german-izing english, I don't know what is. :)

Let's keep the sniping down to the occasional side-shot, shall we boys?

And EA: Just so you know that someone noticed: brilliant tap-dancing! You should have your own TV show.

So: anyone want to discuss punishing rape victims in other cultures? Asian? African? Pacific Island? Or are we gonna buy the "Islam alone makes 'em do it" line?

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

So: anyone want to discuss punishing rape victims in other cultures? Asian? African? Pacific Island? Or are we gonna buy the "Islam alone makes 'em do it" line?

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Now we're talking... Best question I've seen raised yet. Lets get some more "modern" day perspective.

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Originally Posted by KukriKhan

Let's keep the sniping down to the occasional side-shot, shall we boys?

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That's what I mean. Fragony was making me a compliment and others take it for an insult. We should have a rule that says no two Dutchmen should ever participate in the same thread because their debating style is... idiosyncratic.

@Fragony. I don't think non-Dutchmen will appreciate my views on a Dutch article which they can not read. Jansen-the-Islam-expert is one of my contemporary heroes. Jansen-the-current-affairs-commentator is a riot, nothing more. He is a nice man if you meet him in private. We are trying to get his two-volume biography of Muhammed translated into English. I believe it is far better than anything available on the Anglo-Saxon market nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

No way.

I try to demonstrate that Saudi law practice diverges from what you might call the original message of Muhammed to his contemporaries*. We should bear this in mind, just as we should when we discuss the Bible or any other 'holy book', and not copy the mistakes of the litteralist believers of any creed.

*That is, if there has ever been a historical Muhammed. The earliest sources we have date from one hundred years after his supposed lifetime, and some Islam experts think he is a construct or an invention of the ninth century expansionist Arab elite.

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And the letters to Emperor Heraclius, then?

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Originally Posted by Fenring

And the letters to Emperor Heraclius, then?

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There was supposed to have been just one letter to Heraclius, as part of a series which M. wrote to various rulers of the day. This is all according to Ibn Ishaq who wrote some 200 years after the 'fact'. There is no scholarly evidence for the existence of such letters. The supposed 'reaction' of Heraclius to the letter he received, as described by Ishaq, was clearly propaganda for the faith, not historiography. Which makes it likely that the whole episode is apocryphal.

@Kukrikhan. Let's not try and spread the guilt to make it look as if Islam plays no part in the oppression of women. The situation of women in islamic countries is the worst of all because abuses are entrenched in law and the law, in turn, is entrenched in religion. This means there is no possible appeal, no possible redress against these abuses.

Here is what Human Rights Watch has to say about it:

The human rights of women throughout the Middle East and North Africa are systematically denied by each of the countries in the region, despite the diversity of their political systems. Many governments routinely suppress civil society by restricting freedom of the press, expression, and assembly. These restrictions adversely affect both men and women; however, women are subject to a host of additional gender-specific human rights violations. For example, family, penal, and citizenship laws throughout the region relegate women to a subordinate status compared to their male counterparts. This legal discrimination undermines women's full personhood and equal participation in society and puts women at an increased risk for violence.

Family matters in countries as diverse as Iran, Egypt, Israel, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia are governed by religion-based personal status codes. Many of these laws treat women essentially as legal minors under the eternal guardianship of their male family members. They deny women equal rights with men with respect to marriage, divorce, child custody; and inheritance. Family decision making is thought to be the exclusive domain of men, who enjoy by default the legal status of "head of household." These notions are supported by family courts in the region that often reinforce the primacy of male decision-making power. These courts have rarely appointed women as judges, further denying women authority in family matters.

Also, notice the difference in the following description by HRW of abuse of women worldwide:

Combatants and their sympathizers in conflicts, such as those in Sierra Leone, Kosovo, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Afghanistan, and Rwanda, have raped women as a weapon of war with near complete impunity. Men in Pakistan, South Africa, Peru, Russia, and Uzbekistan beat women in the home at astounding rates, while these governments alternatively refuse to intervene to protect women and punish their batterers or do so haphazardly and in ways that make women feel culpable for the violence. As a direct result of inequalities found in their countries of origin, women from Ukraine, Moldova, Nigeria, the Dominican Republic, Burma, and Thailand are bought and sold, trafficked to work in forced prostitution, with insufficient government attention to protect their rights and punish the traffickers. In Guatemala, South Africa, and Mexico, women's ability to enter and remain in the work force is obstructed by private employers who use women's reproductive status to exclude them from work and by discriminatory employment laws or discriminatory enforcement of the law. In the U.S., students discriminate against and attack girls in school who are lesbian, bi-sexual, or transgendered, or do not conform to male standards of female behavior. Women in Morocco, Jordan, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia face government-sponsored discrimination that renders them unequal before the law - including discriminatory family codes that take away women's legal authority and place it in the hands of male family members - and restricts women's participation in public life.

In non-islamic countries the abuse takes place in contravention to the law. Only in islamic countries does the law enshrine full female inequality.

P.S. I bet Fragony is going omgwtflol now... ~;) So is Tribesman because Israel suddenly appears in the quote. I think readers can figure out that mix-up for themselves..

Anyone actually bother to read the article?

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The woman's ordeal began a year ago when she was blackmailed into meeting a man who threatened to tell her family they were having a relationship outside wedlock, which is illegal in the desert kingdom, according to a report in The Scotsman newspaper.

She met the man at a shopping mall and, after driving off together, the blackmailer's car was stopped by two other cars bearing men wielding knives and meat cleavers.

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Well personally I can understand that sentence. I think it is pretty obvious that she was having a relationship with that man, which isn't really acceptable in Saudi-Arabia. She wasn't sentenced to 90 lashes due to her being raped, but because she propably had something going on with the blackmailer. I think it sometimes is useful to view things from other cultural perspectives before condemning such sentences.

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Originally Posted by Spetulhu

No, it does tell us. A woman who gets raped in the city is to be put to death since it's obvious she didn't scream for help. She didn't protect her father's (or husband's) property. If the crime happens in the countryside the woman isn't punished, there might not have been anyone to hear her cries for help. The rapist gets the death penalty in any case.

Study holy books. It's good for you to see how absurd they can be. :book:

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That is a complete lie. It says that if a woman gets "raped" in a city and DOESN'T cry out, she is put to death. What it is saying, is if she falsely accuses a guy of rape. In the field it is different, since there is no way of proving it, the guy will get put to death. The reason they put women who falsely accused guys of rape to death is because (unless the woman chose to force the guy to marry her and never leave her or be unfaithfull to her) the rapist would be put to death, so by falsely accusing someone of rape, you are in fact trying to murder them. It makes complete sense.
Why do people lie about the Bible, try to villianifiy it in every way possible, while at the same time making excuses for inhumane, evil, and absurd practices in other religions such as Islam? (no, I am not picking on Islam here. Every culture has evil and cruel practices that people often justify with religion, and Islam is no exception. Islam is the subject of this thread however, and people ARE making excuses).
Just wondering about that.
Hope I ruffled some feathers with that one. I'm sick of the PCBS and unfair treatment of religions and members that goes on on this board.

(waits for the "Man" twins to leave the closet and think up a reply) :D

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

Well personally I can understand that sentence. I think it is pretty obvious that she was having a relationship with that man, which isn't really acceptable in Saudi-Arabia. She wasn't sentenced to 90 lashes due to her being raped, but because she propably had something going on with the blackmailer. I think it sometimes is useful to view things from other cultural perspectives before condemning such sentences.

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:shocked2:

One supposes that even in Finland "probably" based on the hearsay of a convicted blackmailer/rapist is hardly considered proof of guilt. Especially when the sentence is utterly barbaric.

:no:

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Hope I ruffled some feathers with that one. I'm sick of the PCBS and unfair treatment of religions and members that goes on on this board.

(waits for the "Man" twins to leave the closet and think up a reply) :D

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If had any idea what you meant by the last sentence, my feathers might well be out of place. :pirate2:

As it is, I'm wondering what you have against polychlorinated biphenyls?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

:wink: Just my way of reminding you that you can defend your views without resorting to angry attacks. :rulez:

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As it is, I'm wondering what you have against polychlorinated biphenyls?

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:verycool: :applause: ~D

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

:shocked2:

One supposes that even in Finland "probably" based on the hearsay of a convicted blackmailer/rapist is hardly considered proof of guilt. Especially when the sentence is utterly barbaric.

:no:

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Then why did she meet up with the man and agree to go in to a car with him?

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

Well personally I can understand that sentence. I think it is pretty obvious that she was having a relationship with that man, which isn't really acceptable in Saudi-Arabia. She wasn't sentenced to 90 lashes due to her being raped, but because she propably had something going on with the blackmailer. I think it sometimes is useful to view things from other cultural perspectives before condemning such sentences.

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Assuming there was a relationship:
- is ninety lashes an acceptable sentence for an affair to you?
- is it alright that only women should receive the lash then?
- wouldn't you agree that if she didn't give in to the blackmail, she'd get the lash, and if she did, she'd get the lash too?
- Isn't all this a bit of a bummer if you're a Saudi woman?

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Originally Posted by Vuk

That is a complete lie. It says that if a woman gets "raped" in a city and DOESN'T cry out, she is put to death. What it is saying, is if she falsely accuses a guy of rape. In the field it is different, since there is no way of proving it, the guy will get put to death. The reason they put women who falsely accused guys of rape to death is because (unless the woman chose to force the guy to marry her and never leave her or be unfaithfull to her) the rapist would be put to death, so by falsely accusing someone of rape, you are in fact trying to murder them. It makes complete sense.
Why do people lie about the Bible, try to villianifiy it in every way possible, while at the same time making excuses for inhumane, evil, and absurd practices in other religions such as Islam? (no, I am not picking on Islam here. Every culture has evil and cruel practices that people often justify with religion, and Islam is no exception. Islam is the subject of this thread however, and people ARE making excuses).
Just wondering about that.
Hope I ruffled some feathers with that one. I'm sick of the PCBS and unfair treatment of religions and members that goes on on this board.

(waits for the "Man" twins to leave the closet and think up a reply) :D

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The part I bolded is about the wisest, most well-considered comment I have ever seen you make on these boards.

Damn shame about all the noise you put before and after it...

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Originally Posted by AggonyDuck

Then why did she meet up with the man and agree to go in to a car with him?

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Erm...because she was blackmailed? :book2:

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The woman's ordeal began a year ago when she was blackmailed into meeting a man who threatened to tell her family they were having a relationship outside wedlock, which is illegal in the desert kingdom, according to a report in The Scotsman newspaper.

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Even if it had been of her own will, does getting into a car with a man give him the right to rape her?

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Isn't all this a bit of a bummer if you're a Saudi woman?

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Lot's of things suck if you are a Saudi woman.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

The part I bolded is about the wisest, most well-considered comment I have ever seen you make on these boards.

Damn shame about all the noise you put before and after it...

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While I know several nice muslim people and believe that are many out there, it is true that the culture, greatly compounded by the religion, breeds violence and inhumanity more than other cultures and religions. Before you all jump to the defencive/offencive, let me explain why I said that.

First, the culture they live in has not changed for thousands of years, and they are taught to avenge insults and injuries from thousands of years ago. Not saying that there is anything wrong with muslims, but the culture in the ME, sadly, is very primitive and barbarian. Second, their religion greatly influences their culture and is to blame for a lot of it's shortcomings and faults. And of course, because of their religion, they bring their culture with them.
Let me clarify:
While I disagree with islam, I do not think that it is an inherently or fundamently bad religion, but that it is easily used by individuals to corrupt and control masses.
Any muslims (and catholics) may find this next part offencive, so don't look unless you are willing to risk it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The islamic religion (much as Catholicism was) was invented as a control mechanism! It was invented by Muhamed, who changed it a hundred and one times, borrowing from and perverting existing religions, to gain followers for his conquests. I do not in any possible way want to try to suggest that muslims are evil or corrupt, but simply dupped by a hugely successful control mechanism that even drives a lot of muslims to give up their lives for a cause they believe in, when it doesn't even exist!! By its very origin, islam has the makings of a potentially violent and inhumane religion. (in fact, a good majority of the passages in the koran (no, I refuse to spell it a different way) deal with (sanctioned and ordered) war, killing, torture, and mutilation) Not to say that all or most of the muslim population is inhumane, but that the religion not only has the potential to, but HAS been used very effectively to corrupt people and convert large amounts of individuals into inhumane murders. Sorry if the truth has a sting to it, I warned you not to look if you didn't want to be offended. I guess truth is one of those things, like when you put Hydrogen Peroxide on a wound; it stings.

The religion of islam (not islamic people) promotes a culture of warfare and violence. Also, it promotes gender inequality and, what to the western world would be considered sexual depravity.
I'll put that in spoils to if you wish, but I do not believe that it warrants it. Please correct me if I am wrong.:bow:

Christianity has been perverted many times and used as a tool for evil. It can be done with any religion, belief, or opinion. Islam is just a lot easier to do it with (as history shows).

Hope I don't step on anyone's toes with this post, but it is the truth (and the opinion parts are my true opinion) and I did my best to make it unoffencive. If you would like me to change it in a way that would make it more pallettable, please ask.

Vuk

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Such devotion defending your favorite religion, but what exactly does the bible say about rape victims and what should be done to them, nothing.

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ye of little faith Frag , you should know by now that I don't screw up on scripture .

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Hope I ruffled some feathers with that one. I'm sick of the PCBS and unfair treatment of religions and members that goes on on this board.

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Hey Vuk I treat all religeons fairly and with respect , what I do not like and treat in the manner I think it deserves is the fundamentalism and literalism that some peoples of all denominations claim as truth , and when they post lies and claim it is the "truth" I really go to town on them .
And hey , that is a fact not a FACT :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Vuk

The islamic religion (much as Catholicism was) was invented

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Heh, what does that say about you silly protestants ? Dissidents to an invented religion :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Papewaio

It is sickening what people do in the name of faith.

So PJ and DD, based on this child brides in Utah are they the responsibility of all Christians and Jesus?

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Oh, the ones not supported by the state and federal governments, the ones hunted down by the FBI, the ones condemned by the rest of America? Seems a rather different situation, doesn't it?

:rolleyes:

To the OP: What a screwed up system of punishment.

Crazed Rabbit

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Heh, what does that say about you silly protestants ? Dissidents to an invented religion

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There are many branches , just because someone isn't a Catholic Christian it doesn't mean they are a Protestant Christian , though with his fondness of the ancient laws (kill the rape victim one being an example) it does narrow the field a little .

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

There are many branches , just because someone isn't a Catholic Christian it doesn't mean they are a Protestant Christian , though with his fondness of the ancient laws (kill the rape victim one being an example) it does narrow the field a little .

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hey, you're all heretics to me :knight:

yeah don't take this seriously

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

While I know several nice muslim people and believe that are many out there, it is true that the culture, greatly compounded by the religion, breeds violence and inhumanity more than other cultures and religions. Before you all jump to the defencive/offencive, let me explain why I said that.

First, the culture they live in has not changed for thousands of years, and they are taught to avenge insults and injuries from thousands of years ago. Not saying that there is anything wrong with muslims, but the culture in the ME, sadly, is very primitive and barbarian. Second, their religion greatly influences their culture and is to blame for a lot of it's shortcomings and faults. And of course, because of their religion, they bring their culture with them.
Let me clarify:
While I disagree with islam, I do not think that it is an inherently or fundamently bad religion, but that it is easily used by individuals to corrupt and control masses.
Any muslims (and catholics) may find this next part offencive, so don't look unless you are willing to risk it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The islamic religion (much as Catholicism was) was invented as a control mechanism! It was invented by a degenerate old pervert named Muhamed, who changed it a hundred and one times, borrowing from and perverting existing religions, to gain followers for his conquests. I do not in any possible way want to try to suggest that muslims are evil or corrupt, but simply dupped by a hugely successful control mechanism that even drives a lot of muslims to give up their lives for a cause they believe in, when it doesn't even exist!! By its very origin, islam has the makings of a potentially violent and inhumane religion. (in fact, a good majority of the passages in the koran (no, I refuse to spell it a different way) deal with (sanctioned and ordered) war, killing, torture, and mutilation) Not to say that all or most of the muslim population is inhumane, but that the religion not only has the potential to, but HAS been used very effectively to corrupt people and convert large amounts of individuals into inhumane murders. Sorry if the truth has a sting to it, I warned you not to look if you didn't want to be offended. I guess truth is one of those things, like when you put Hydrogen Peroxide on a wound; it stings.

The religion of islam (not islamic people) promotes a culture of warfare and violence. Also, it promotes gender inequality and, what to the western world would be considered sexual depravity.
I'll put that in spoils to if you wish, but I do not believe that it warrants it. Please correct me if I am wrong.:bow:

Christianity has been perverted many times and used as a tool for evil. It can be done with any religion, belief, or opinion. Islam is just a lot easier to do it with (as history shows).

Hope I don't step on anyone's toes with this post, but it is the truth (and the opinion parts are my true opinion) and I did my best to make it unoffencive. If you would like me to change it in a way that would make it more pallettable, please ask.

Vuk

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Actually, I can not simply dismiss some of the conclusions of this post. I am a lazy fart, I should really give you all the if's and but's this post deserves, but I can't bring myself nowadays to write posts that take me half an hour to write. ~:mecry:
And yes, it is offensive to Islam, but sticking to what I wrote in another thread: opinions happen to clash. This is your opinion of Islam, others hold similar opinions about Christianity. Can you see what I mean about accepting that one man's opinion can be another one's insult?

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Originally Posted by Vuk

Hope I don't step on anyone's toes with this post, but it is the truth (and the opinion parts are my true opinion) and I did my best to make it unoffencive. If you would like me to change it in a way that would make it more pallettable, please ask.

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Despite some concern, I will let it stand with only a small edit, but I suggest that you stand ready to field some fairly robust rebuttals of your opinions.

I will not hesitate to lock this thread and hand out warnings if any posts overdo the religion bashing.

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

I will not hesitate to lock this thread and hand out warnings if any posts overdo the religion bashing.

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Heh. In an attempt to lighten up the mood a little bit, and maybe release a little of the tension in this thread, I'll say this: BG's phrase brought a chuckle to my lips, and for some reason immediately reminded me of this:

"I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya punk? "

A chuckle in a friendly, not derogatory, way BG.~:grouphug:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

They should follow the proper punishments as set down in the bible , lashes for rape victims is just too lenient .
Sharia law is lightweight , they should get more biblical .

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Well done tribes. Your derailment has been fairly effective, despite there having been no mention of Christianity in the article or my original post.


Im also enjoying the little side argument about how she deserves what she got because she was blackmailed into getting in a car with a man. Obviously blackmail infers a relationship.

And of course, a relationship between two unmarried people deserves 90 lashes... a la The Passion of the Christ. WTF? :no:



This isnt terrorism, its state sanctioned barbarism. This is Islam. :shame:

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Well done tribes. Your derailment has been fairly effective, despite there having been no mention of Christianity in the article or my original post.

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Ah well that was in response to Daves rants about two religeons in one post:laugh4:

Interestingly he rejects one of those as a Christian faith , yet some in that faith would say that dave isn't a proper Christian because of the early split with Judaism , rejection of some of Gods laws and the incorrect translations and editing of the bible he uses , in exactly the same way that other Christian denominations would contend the truth of different flavours of Christianity .
Funny old game isn't it , I wonder if Pindar or one of the other Mormons will pop in to make comments about daves views of their "Non Christian cult" .

Though to be honest Dave does need a little work on the phrases he uses to make it more entertaining , perhaps next time in stead of describing something as********(insert religeon of your choice) is about as Christian as Budism. he could try*********is about as Christian as Matsyas tail fin or Varahas 2nd left thumb .
Either that or try using the word Buddhism instead since the word he used is more suggestive of a fondness for that brand of weak pale beer they make over there

Well, I'm all on edge with all the Baptist suicide bombers and Catholic's using beheadings and all those Methodists hijacking planes and slamming them into buildings. :laugh4:
Of course all of them are chanting, "Praise Jesus" while in the act. If people are too blind to see this or even read what Muhammad said and preached then I guess the only time they'll see the light is just before the light shuts off while a blade is sawing off their spinal cord.

Ah I see the problem there Dave , you worry needlessly and get yourself all agitated .
Sit back , relax , take a deep breath , then tuck into some fried chicken and malt liquor while watching Oprah and waiting for your welfare check.:whip:
Oh sorry wrong rant , this one was about Islam wasn't it:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost

Even if it had been of her own will, does getting into a car with a man give him the right to rape her?

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I've never argued that they had the right to rape her, what I am saying is that she broke the local law by getting in that car with him. Hence why I can understand the sentence.

As to why she got in that car, who knows, but I just find it strange that a total stranger can blackmail a woman by threatening to tell her family that they are having a relationship outside wedlock. Either there was some truth in those claims or she felt she would be unable to defend herself, because she obviously felt threatened by him.

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Originally Posted by luigi VI di Fatlington

Assuming there was a relationship:
- is ninety lashes an acceptable sentence for an affair to you?
- is it alright that only women should receive the lash then?
- wouldn't you agree that if she didn't give in to the blackmail, she'd get the lash, and if she did, she'd get the lash too?
- Isn't all this a bit of a bummer if you're a Saudi woman?

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-In Saudi-Arabia, yes. The sentence is maybe a bit over the top, but Sharia law tries to use severe penalties to ensure that such things do not happen.
-I read that both got punished.
-Yes, she has already commited her "crime". Although that raises the question; what on earth was the blackmailer trying to accomplish, because he would had been punished similarly if it had went public.
-Yes, it is.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

That is a complete lie.

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edit: it's from Deuteronomy.

22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

22:26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

22:27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

@Spetulhu
Perhaps I am missing some context here - but are you sure that the first case is about rape and not about adultery? (not that I would support the death sentence for adultery - but death for adultery seems quite normal for that time and is certainly different from being punished for being raped).
Note that the second case makes a point of "the man forcing her" while the first case does not mention force at all

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Well, I'm all on edge with all the Baptist suicide bombers and Catholic's using beheadings and all those Methodists hijacking planes and slamming them into buildings. :laugh4: Of course all of them are chanting, "Praise Jesus" while in the act.

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As a matter of fact they are.

I suggest you read up on the National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) in India: they indulge in mass kidnappings, extortions, murders, rapes, bombings and forced conversions in the name of your Lord Jesus Christ.

Or on the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, perpetrators of horrendous abuse in the name of same.

Or on the role of the Catholic clergy in the Rwanda massacre of 1994.

On or the trio of Fabianus Tibo, Dominggus da Silva and Marianus Riwu from Sulawesi (Indonesia) who wee found guilty in 2001 of leading a Christian militia that launched attacks on Muslims, including a gun and machete assault that killed 70 people who had taken refuge in an Islamic school.

Get real, Dave. No religion is immune to such idiocy.

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

Heh, what does that say about you silly protestants ? Dissidents to an invented religion :laugh4:

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The Catholic church took the already existing religion of Christianity and mixed it with pagan beliefs in order to make it more pallettable to the pagan peoples. That is what I was refering to. That, and the indulgences and all the other things they added. There is something (in Mathew I believe, though I could be wrong) in the Bible that goes something like, "And in the latter days, the people will go crazy and will not allow their priests to enjoy the pleasures of good foods and marraige" (that probably just slaughtered it, :P)
The Catholic church was a control mechanism to bring both the pagans and Christian (both of which existed before the Catholic Church) under one banner under the control of the church.

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Originally Posted by Spetulhu

edit: it's from Deuteronomy.

22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

22:26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

22:27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

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Thank you for providing me with the proof.



"22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you."

In other words if they sleep with each others, not he rapes her. If he was raping her, she would cry.
"22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
"
In other words if she says he rapes her. He WILL die. She on the other hand:
"22:26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

22:27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her"
In other words, he raped her.

If two people cheat, they both die. If a man is accused of rape and there is no one to prove that he didn't, he dies. I won't be near a Bible for quite some time, but there is a passage elsewhere that provides for when it is proven that a man rapes a woman. These laws are for when a man is falsely accused, and when there are no witnesses. (note: the man dies both times)
In an ordinary case, where it is proven, the man is to be put to death, UNLESS the woman wants to force him to marry her, provide for her, and NEVER leave her. Quite a bit different from HER getting 90 lashes!

(See the CAPS Tribesy? :beam: :laugh4: )

Adrian II, I notice you seem to take a very odd skeptical position on the actual existence of religious figures (Jesus as well).

Now the case with Muhammad is even more clear cut than Jesus. The earliest non-Muslim reference to him is a Greek text from Byzantine Syria within 2 years of his death.

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

As a matter of fact they are.

I suggest you read up on the National Liberation Front of Tripura (NLFT) in India: they indulge in mass kidnappings, extortions, murders, rapes, bombings and forced conversions in the name of your Lord Jesus Christ.

Or on the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, perpetrators of horrendous abuse in the name of same.

Or on the role of the Catholic clergy in the Rwanda massacre of 1994.

On or the trio of Fabianus Tibo, Dominggus da Silva and Marianus Riwu from Sulawesi (Indonesia) who wee found guilty in 2001 of leading a Christian militia that launched attacks on Muslims, including a gun and machete assault that killed 70 people who had taken refuge in an Islamic school.

Get real, Dave. No religion is immune to such idiocy.

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True, all religions can be hijacked (used that word intentionally :D) and used as excuses for evil (as can philosophies, parties, morals, codes, etc.), but some are a LOT (:laugh4: ) more susceptible to it than others.

This whole thread is just another reason why all religion should be exterminated completely...

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22:24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you."

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The way that I read it, it's saying that if she got raped in the city, she obviously didn't cry out, since if she had, someone would have come and helped her-it being the city, with lots of people around-and she would thus not have been raped. Therefore, the very fact she got raped in the city is, in and of itself, enough reason to put her to death.

Vuk your understanding of scripture is amazingly lacking . Perhaps the 5 year break you have taken from the book where the fault lies.
Here look , its easy .
If a man find a lady in the city then one law applies , BUT if he finds her in the country then another law applies .
And to add further if the lady he finds is a virgin yet not betrothed then he can just pay the father of the lady some cash for what he takes .

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I won't be near a Bible for quite some time,

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And you call yourself a Christian :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: you want to get rid of that statue of Shiva and get down to your local tabernacle and pray ...... errrrr....thats Alabama 3 verse 2 isn't it:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Ser Clegane

@Spetulhu
Perhaps I am missing some context here - but are you sure that the first case is about rape and not about adultery?

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You're probably right, sort of. Note the part about the woman being killed because no one heard her cry for help in the city. It's assumed she was willing so she gets stoned no matter what she says.

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Originally Posted by Vuk

The religion of islam (not islamic people) promotes a culture of warfare and violence. Also, it promotes gender inequality and, what to the western world would be considered sexual depravity.

Christianity has been perverted many times and used as a tool for evil. It can be done with any religion, belief, or opinion.

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I'd personally change that first bit to 'An interpretation of the religion of Islam (and one that is unfortunately widespread and attention-grabbing) promotes . . .

Otherwise I'd definitely agree with that statement.

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Papewaio
So PJ and DD, based on this child brides in Utah are they the responsibility of all Christians and Jesus?

Crazed Rabbit
Oh, the ones not supported by the state and federal governments, the ones hunted down by the FBI, the ones condemned by the rest of America? Seems a rather different situation, doesn't it?

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And condemned by all those evil cultist Mormons too, incidentally . . .

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Originally Posted by tribesman

Funny old game isn't it , I wonder if Pindar or one of the other Mormons will pop in to make comments about daves views of their "Non Christian cult" .

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Since it was only one post by one member, and had been overlooked by everyone else (and since I'm used to hearing that kind of thing anyway), I was just going to leave it alone. Any specific questions or glaring misconceptions that stand in the way of a discussion I'm happy to field.

Ajax

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22:23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

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I think the assumption here is that the only way that a man could lie with her is if she didn't cry out. Because if she cried out in the city someone would hear and intervene.

So either it is a very big assumption or neighborhood watch was a lot more effective back then.

=][=

Politics, culture, religion, moral codes, philosophies are all used to control society. I don't think there is one out there that hasn't been twisted around and used for something that is abhorrent.

Saudi Arabia runs under a very militant version of Islam (Wahhabism). Osama Bin Laden and Saudi Arabia are having a fight over this sect of Islam. The West is just a proxy and a place for a battle. Afghanistan is like Vietnam, not because of a potential quagmire but because the West is fighting a proxy civil war on behalf of one arm of Wahhabism against another arm. Vietnam was a proxy war for the cold war, Afghanistan is a proxy war for Wahhabism. Over 80% of the terrorists on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia, they are essentially an ultra-orthodox version of Wahhabism.

A similar scenario are the Ultra-Orthodox settlers in the occupied terroritories who have altercations with the Israeli government.

Or Waco Texas...

There are a lot of wacked out ultra-orthodox movements out there quite happy to fight with their own governments, and a few of them have no issues about involving outsiders.