Spearwall Polearms vs. Cavalry

I've done a bunch of custom battle tests and have concluded that the best way to use spearwall polearm units like Voulgiers and Obudshaers against melee cavalry is offensively.

With or without guard mode on these guys can fall quite easily against a charge if they just stand there and take it. The reason is twofold. First, their weapons are far shorter than pikes, which means they can't really keep cavalry away at a safe distance, nor impale them very well. Secondly, they don't start seriously attacking until awhile after the charge is received. By then a sizable amount of their troops would have fallen to cavalry swords and maces.

So, taking a cue from this MTW unit guide, I decided to use these guys offensively.

After some initial 1 vs. 1 tests, I found that the best way to deploy them was in a two rank deep long line, guard mode off and spearwall on. They should attack from a at least a half arrow-shot away. After careful observation I noticed that the polearms were lowered at an angle whenever the enemy drew near. If the enemy cavalry charged them in this state, the polearm units would partially resist the charge and the cavalry would suffer significant losses. If the weapons were not lowered the cavalry would utterly crush them.

I did some more formal tests to flesh out this theory. On each side were multiple units such that the total florin cost (in-campaign) for both was about equal. The enemy cavalry in every test were Famiglia Ducale, because they do not suffer from the shield bug, provide a good challenge, and are widely available mid-game. Weaker units were given armor upgrades since they would very likely have them in-game. At the start of the battle every unit was properly deployed and ordered to attack the nearest enemy. They would re-attack if the enemy retreated. The conditions were Scottish Glen, summer, clear weather, medium difficulty.

Test 1

6 Obudshaers vs. 5 Famiglia Ducale
Approx. in-campaign cost: 4360 florins

Results:
OS: (138 men lost/361 men deployed)*720 florins*6 = 1651 florins lost
FD: (171 men lost/201 men deployed)*880 florins*5 = 3743 florins lost
Florin loss ratio: 2.267

Test 2

7 Voulgiers (upgraded to heavy mail) vs. 4 Famiglia Ducale
Approx. in-campaign cost: 3545 florins

Results:

VG: (124 men lost/421 men deployed)*510 florins*7 = 1051 florins lost
FD: (131 men lost/161 men deployed)*880 florins*4 = 2864 florins lost
Florin loss ratio: 2.725

Test 3

9 Halberd Militia (Hungarian, upgraded to heavy mail) vs. 3 Famiglia Ducale
Approx. in-campaign cost: 2670 florins

Results:

HM: (125 men lost/541 men deployed)*300 florins*9 = 624 florins lost
FD: (104 men lost/121 men deployed)*880 florins*3 = 2269 florins lost
Florin loss ratio: 3.636

Conclusion

It appears that cheap spearwall polearm units such as Eastern European Halberd Militia are well suited to offensively taking on heavy knights, even if the knights' charges will cause significant casualties. Better spearwall polearm units will also work, but the economic advantages will be lessened. Polearm units in general are also good against armored sword and spear infantry, making spearwall polearm units especially good with their dual roles.

Non-spearwall polearm units such as Janissary Heavy Inf and Billmen will still die quickly against cavalry charges, however, no matter what they do.

Interesting results. If you want a better indicator of cost-to-performance ratio for each of your units that was fighting the cavalry, though, then you need to lock in to using the same amount of cavalry in each fight. Ensuring the same value of troops on each side does not sufficiently guarantee that you have a similar battle situation in each case, which is what you really need to do a reliable test. So I'd recommend having another go of it, only this time:

1. Pick a set number of Famiglia Ducale to use in every battle. Probably 4 or 5.
2. Set a florin amount for the troops to fight against the cav, and use it for each battle, only changing the unit type you recruit - spend as close to the amount as possible each time.

That should give you a much clearer idea of which type of unit performs the best for that given cost, since they're all fighting the same battle then.

You'll probably still notice a significant benefit to having larger quantities of cheaper troops - more means they can surround the cavalry better while the cavalry beat on a limited few units. This can be a bit misleading though, as there are other things besides just cost and performance that should be considered. For instance, 9 of a bad unit take up far more space in a stack than 3 or 4 of a very good one, though 3 or 4 of that good unit may perform almost as well as 9 of the bad. Even if the few good units costs more than the many bad, then, you're still probably advised to take the better units instead, since you'll be able to fill the stack with far more firepower in the end due to having higher quality troops. There are many other considerations too... but for now suffice it to say that cost-to-performance is not the only factor you should look at to decide which troops are better to use.

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Originally Posted by Foz

That should give you a much clearer idea of which type of unit performs the best for that given cost, since they're all fighting the same battle then.

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That wasn't really my goal, though. I was testing whether the offensive strategy worked for different tiers of units provided there were financially fair conditions. I wasn't directly comparing unit value; that's a different issue. I understand the militia obtained a better florin loss ratio because of numerical superiority, but the fact that they could win at all was the main point. The florin loss ratio merely served as an indicator.

If I used the same type of test using peasants instead, they would get destroyed and I cannot say they would be good against knights.

Stack dynamics is quite a different topic so I'm not going to talk about that.

After playing around with armored peasant armies I'm beginning to see your point.

I tested halberd militias again - this time it was 8 HM vs. 6 Border Horses.

The HM won with a ratio of about 2.1.

Next I pitted 5 Swiss Guards vs. 5 Famiglia Ducale

The SG won with a ratio of 2.88.

I guess this shows the tests need to be fair financially as well as slot-wise; that is, the number of slots used for each side needs to be fairly equal.

But now it's without a doubt that these guys can hand cavalry a crushing defeat.

Try the JHI next... They kill every horse in sight.

They're the most effective counter to cavalry I've seen so far, and they take a charge well too.

Once had two units of JHI cleave through an army of 2 crusader sergeants and a bodyguard... I lost 12 men and killed them all. Never, ever seen a bodyguard go down so quickly. The only thing coming close, is when they're trapped and shot at by x number of pavise crossbows/musketeers..

spearwall polearm units need faster marching speeds even when out of spearwall. march them side by side with other infantry when out of spearwall and you will see what i am talking about.

i also think they are too slow in spearwall as well. pikes and halberdiers should have matching marching speeds when in spearwall.

otherwise they are good units as long as they are in spearwall and spread thin to contain the flanks of a cav charge.

Those pikes are pretty long and don't exactly help one along when marching along.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Try the JHI next... They kill every horse in sight.

They're the most effective counter to cavalry I've seen so far, and they take a charge well too.

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That's completely false. If they get hit by a well-formed charge their entire unit goes down in seconds.

tis true

Interesting find... Maybe I should do some testing myself to see if what you said was right.

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Originally Posted by Miracle

That's completely false. If they get hit by a well-formed charge their entire unit goes down in seconds.

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That can be said about any infantry unit, no matter how powerful :yes:

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Originally Posted by sapi

That can be said about any infantry unit, no matter how powerful :yes:

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w/o shield fix, yes. It requires more defense than any crippled shield unit or any non-shield unit has to properly withstand a cavalry charge. With fixed shields, armored sergeants will become quite menacing to cavalry, and units that ought to be armored tanks will do quite a good job absorbing those cavalry charges. DFKs for instance do a pretty good job smiting cavalry in close combat once they have the benefit of their full defense - no more of the "fall over like armored dominoes" thing. I've been using my version of the shield fix for quite some time, and it's amazing how much it has influenced my choice of where and how to commit my cavalry. It's a lot more tactical now, as many units are more than capable of shredding cavalry in melee combat once they're not suffering -12 defense.

I just tried Obudshaers vs. JHI using this method.

The Obudshaers won, ~55 kills vs. ~30 losses.

The key part of the victory was that the OS could attack the JHI first due to their long_pike attribute.

That meant the entire JHI first line fell in the first seconds of the battle. Afterwards they put up a good fight but being outnumbered they were beaten.

Perhaps JHI users can mitigate this by attacking as a square, but that's vulnerable to being flank-wrapped by the longer OS line.

Basically this means the offensive strategy works against charging infantry as well, even good ones like JHI.

Miracle is that with shield fix because I remember doing the same thing with 1.1 patch and the Obudasher guys got owned from JHI. Both units just did a normal charge into each other 1v1 with no other distractions

That wouldn't matter neither unit uses shields so the shield fix doesn't affect them.

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Originally Posted by Xdeathfire

Miracle is that with shield fix because I remember doing the same thing with 1.1 patch and the Obudasher guys got owned from JHI. Both units just did a normal charge into each other 1v1 with no other distractions

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You had to have used a two rank line with guard mode off and spearwall on. Otherwise it will not work.

I have a question - What is the best Pikeman unit of the game?

That's a little off-topic but...

I'd say Tercio pikemen because they are cheap and better disciplined than Aventuros. Pikemen need to be disciplined because you don' t want them chasing after horses and getting out of formation.

Oh wow that makes me pleasantly surprised. I thought that because they are so dirt cheap (350 florins) that there would be better pikes out there that I didn't know about. Anway sorry yeah that is slightly off topic but I just wanted to know.

Actually it's Scots Noble Pikemen. They too are disciplined and have much better defense, especially missile resistance. No competition IMHO.

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Originally Posted by Carl

Actually it's Scots Noble Pikemen. They too are disciplined and have much better defense, especially missile resistance. No competition IMHO.

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Tercio pikemen can be very easily upgraded to heavy mail which is 1 less armor than the Noble's partial plate.

Combined with their superior training, 39% lower training cost and 28% lower upkeep, this makes Tercio the overall best.

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Originally Posted by Miracle

Tercio pikemen can be very easily upgraded to heavy mail which is 1 less armor than the Noble's partial plate.

Combined with their superior training, 39% lower training cost and 28% lower upkeep, this makes Tercio the overall best.

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Those upgrades cost money, you know. You can't just write off the fact that you've spent thousands of florins to get the appropriate buildings and act like they're equal defensively because they can be upgraded.

Also, the Noble Pikemen are granted by huge stone walls as well as the armoury. Tercio pikes require a military academy to be recruited, which in turn requires a huge city to be built. So in addition to having a huge city, they also need a 4-turn building that costs 4800 florins. To get the upgrades they require to be remotely close to the Noble pikes, you need 3 upgrade buildings, or 2+3+4 = 10 turns worth of building, and 600+1200+2400 = 4200 florins of upgrade buildings. So right off the bat you've invested 9000 florins more to have your tercio pikes w/ upgrades than you would have just to have basic Noble pikes, who still will have a 1 point armor advantage right out of the box. Additionally the Noble pikes can come on the scene possibly 14 turns earlier due to not requiring any construction detours (earlier still if you use those turns to promote growth instead of blacksmiths). That's a fairly sizable difference. It will be a bit of time before the cost difference of the Tercio can pay back the hole you dig to get them in the first place, and that's not even accounting for your greater troops losses due to lower armor, which could realistically make them economically neck-and-neck with Noble Pikes as far as investments go.

On top of that, Noble pikes have an upgrade level of their own, which will make them further surpass the defense of the Tercio pikes. So with all the facts accounted for, it seems far less likely that you can claim Tercio pikes are the best simply on the grounds of cost. They are beaten statistically, and have an edge on cost/upkeep, but it's entirely unclear how those two interact to determine an overall best unit.

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Tercio pikemen can be very easily upgraded to heavy mail which is 1 less armor than the Noble's partial plate.

Combined with their superior training, 39% lower training cost and 28% lower upkeep, this makes Tercio the overall best.

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If your going to include Armour you have to include the Nobles own upgrade. Not to mention that I've tried Noble Pikes vs. Terico's and the Terico's do do a lot of damage but they still get beat.

Don't get me wrong, i'm sure for price the Terico's are more efficient, but if we look at that then Heavy Pike Militia STILL win as they cost zip all upkeep in cities and aren't that expensive for what they give and can still match Terrico's

However the question was which is the best pike. not which is most cost efficient just which is the best killer and I've yet to find one that can beat Noble Pikemen.

I'd include the Noble's armor upgrade if it weren't for the fact that a full plate upgrade requires a much more substantial investment and still only gives Nobles a +2 armor advantage - not worth the extra upkeep.

Heavy pike militia doesn't get free upkeep outside of cities, where pikes are best utilized. They can't match Tercios due to their lower attack, lower defense skill, lower morale, inferior training and greater out-of-city upkeep.

My definition of "best" includes value and availability, which I believe is as important as a unit's combat performance.

Anyway it's good that pikes were brought up, because after testing Aventuros vs. JHI out of sheer curiosity I came up with some novel results:

https://img150.imageshack.us/img150/...hipwnedyc2.png
Aventuros impaling JHI before they get close

Aventuros won, ~53 wins vs. ~33 losses.

As you can see the Aventuros are impaling the first line before they could get close. Afterwards they whipped out their swords and finished the outnumbered JHI. This was done using my offensive method - attacking with long lines, guard mode off and spearwall on. However this will only work well with Aventuros; other pikemen have either too little defense or too little attack. This data combined with our little pikemen debate means we must revise our opinions. Tercio will still fend off any melee cavalry as effectively as Aventuros while being cheaper and more disciplined, but only Aventuros can offensively destroy JHI-level infantry.

Best Pikemen:

Defensive vs Cavalry: Tercio
Offensive vs Infantry: Aventuros

Sorry Foz I didn't see your post...

The thing with armoury buildings is that they benefit many other troops besides pikemen. In the case of Spain they would substantially benefit militia and musketeers as well. So it's not like I spent 9 turns and 4200 florins just to get better Tercios.

Your point with the Military Academy is well taken, but then again Spanish settlements tend to have higher base farming levels and more special resources than Scottish ones, allowing them to acquire Huge Walls earlier than the Scots could.

Pikemen are useless against other infantry. w/o guard mode they impale at first. then the first few ranks turn to their swords when close with the enemy breaking their own formation.

not useless

And regardless there's a fix floating around for that

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I'd include the Noble's armor upgrade if it weren't for the fact that a full plate upgrade requires a much more substantial investment and still only gives Nobles a +2 armor advantage - not worth the extra upkeep.

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Well first your values are off. It's +2 Armour in theory for the Noble Pikeman Upgrade. Second, Terico's get Silver, not Gold Armour and start unarmored so they only go to 6 defense with upgrades, that puts them 2 behind to start with. and 4 after upgrades to the Nobles.

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Heavy pike militia doesn't get free upkeep outside of cities, where pikes are best utilized. They can't match Tercios due to their lower attack, lower defense skill, lower morale, inferior training and greater out-of-city upkeep.

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Well first the best place for pikes IS in cities. and in fact no army should really be outside a city/castle except when intercepting an enemy army or attacking an enemy settlement. If your using them for either (barring bridge based Field battles), then i respectfully submit that you have no clue about how to use pikes. Pikes are slow and easily shot up, they're best in a situation where their flanks are safe and the enemy has to attack them head on. The combination of tower fire and narrow wall breaches makes fighting out a siege with pikes inside much more advantageous to the pikes than attacking the enemy army in the Field before they reach the city. The poor Armour of pikes and their inability to move either quickly or attack whilst moving means they are best left out of siege assaults. SO in the end the Heavy Pike Militia should be free upkeep most of the time.

I'd also point out that the attack rate of Pikes is so high that in my experience neither level of training nor attack make significant differences to kill rate (unlike other units). It will help turn a close defeat into a convincing win, but if you where going to win anyway it doesn't tend to matter.

What does tend to matter a LOT is defense, especially Armour as thats the weak point of all pikes. Defense influences Pike Fights heavily as it means those enemy that get past the Pike points do a lot less damage, that really helps kill rates as extra men are worth so much more in a fight, it also helps keep long term costs down.However it's the missile resistance that is so important, Tericos can be shot up MUCH more effectively than Nobles/Heavy Pike militia, and no matter how fast you kill their missiles you'll always take some losses.

Morale is another paper stat, if your using your pikes right they shouldn't be moving much and should have their flanks/rears well protected, plus shouldn't be too badly shot up as you dealt with the enemy missile swiftly and promptly. Therefore, the reality is that the Pikes have few Morale Modifiers and will virtually fight to the last man almost regardless of morale. it only means anything when something goes badly wrong, and if that happens you may well have lost the battle as Pikes rely on carrying out the same fixed plan time and time again. Get it right and it's a near guaranteed win, get it wrong and it's a near guaranteed loss. It does matter, but not ass much as you'd think.

Don't get me wrong, Tericos probably WILL still beat the Heavy Pike Militia, but the Heavy Pike Militia are a good 40 Florins Cheaper so it's not exactly bad.

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My definition of "best" includes value and availability, which I believe is as important as a unit's combat performance.

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Nope, Spain has the Moors, Milan, France, Portugal, and Sicily breathing down it's neck. Scotland once it's dealt with England can concentrate the British isles on growth and economy, it's never likely to be in danger their again. The same cannot be said of Spain for some time.

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My definition of "best" includes value and availability, which I believe is as important as a unit's combat performance.

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Outside of SP I'd agree, but by the time you get to Pikes in SP your income is so high it simply doesn't mater with cost. And on availability the Tericos lose badly, not to mention the cost difference between nobles and Tericos is only 60 florins.

AND we haven't even looked at how the supporting armies square up, for Pike support Scotland is FAR better IMHO.


Before I go I WILL point out that I play with a Pike fix and that this impacts things. Extra attack and discipline mean far more when they switch to swords due to the much lower attack rate, but when you have 4 rows of pikes stabbing away theirs no real major effects as the number of attacks drowns the differences out to a large degree.

whats neat is giving the pike militia there full armor upgrade to partial plate. they turn from wimpy troops into something that can fight the swiss pikemen to a standstill.

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Originally Posted by Carl

Well first your values are off. It's +2 Armour in theory for the Noble Pikeman Upgrade. Second, Terico's get Silver, not Gold Armour and start unarmored so they only go to 6 defense with upgrades, that puts them 2 behind to start with. and 4 after upgrades to the Nobles.

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Tercios go straight from unarmored to light mail, then heavy mail. That corresponds to +7 armor. Nobles go from +8 to +9 for full plate. Check this and this .

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Well first the best place for pikes IS in cities. and in fact no army should really be outside a city/castle except when intercepting an enemy army or attacking an enemy settlement. If your using them for either (barring bridge based Field battles), then i respectfully submit that you have no clue about how to use pikes. Pikes are slow and easily shot up, they're best in a situation where their flanks are safe and the enemy has to attack them head on. The combination of tower fire and narrow wall breaches makes fighting out a siege with pikes inside much more advantageous to the pikes than attacking the enemy army in the Field before they reach the city. The poor Armour of pikes and their inability to move either quickly or attack whilst moving means they are best left out of siege assaults. SO in the end the Heavy Pike Militia should be free upkeep most of the time.

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Pikes, if properly handled and if used in tandem with arquebusiers/musketeers, are excellent in field battles. It's a pity the Scots don't get indigenous gunpowder troops to complement their pikes. I find it odd you excluded bridge battles, because that's where I'd agree that pikes form an excellent defense. It's be crazy to use pikes for siege assault - anybody knows that - so for you to suggest that I'd do such a thing is insulting. Personally I prefer to avoid being sieged in the first place and destroy enemy armies in the field, but that's a difference in personal playstyle.

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I'd also point out that the attack rate of Pikes is so high that in my experience neither level of training nor attack make significant differences to kill rate (unlike other units). It will help turn a close defeat into a convincing win, but if you where going to win anyway it doesn't tend to matter.

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Against infantry (which pikes get a penalty towards) and against very high defense cavalry, it does matter. The pikeman's goal is to quickly kill as many attackers as possible before they get close. The difference between 9 and 11 attack makes a significant difference in this regard. Note that I'm playing without any mods or fixers. After 1.2 cavalry will have their shields fixed and will be more tough to kill.

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What does tend to matter a LOT is defense, especially Armour as thats the weak point of all pikes. Defense influences Pike Fights heavily as it means those enemy that get past the Pike points do a lot less damage, that really helps kill rates as extra men are worth so much more in a fight, it also helps keep long term costs down.However it's the missile resistance that is so important, Tericos can be shot up MUCH more effectively than Nobles/Heavy Pike militia, and no matter how fast you kill their missiles you'll always take some losses.

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True, but the marginal armor difference between Nobles and Tercios simply doesn't warrant the increased cost. Maybe you can do some scientific, empirical tests if you want to prove otherwise (I don't have time to do those right now).

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Morale is another paper stat, if your using your pikes right they shouldn't be moving much and should have their flanks/rears well protected, plus shouldn't be too badly shot up as you dealt with the enemy missile swiftly and promptly. Therefore, the reality is that the Pikes have few Morale Modifiers and will virtually fight to the last man almost regardless of morale. it only means anything when something goes badly wrong, and if that happens you may well have lost the battle as Pikes rely on carrying out the same fixed plan time and time again. Get it right and it's a near guaranteed win, get it wrong and it's a near guaranteed loss. It does matter, but not ass much as you'd think.

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It makes a difference when one faces high dread Mongol/Timurid armies, but I'd agree that morale isn't very high on the priority list.

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Nope, Spain has the Moors, Milan, France, Portugal, and Sicily breathing down it's neck. Scotland once it's dealt with England can concentrate the British isles on growth and economy, it's never likely to be in danger their again. The same cannot be said of Spain for some time.

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Scots start with one built-up settlement and no relatively quick access to plentiful and rich merchant resources (Timbuktu/Arguin). Spain if it plays its cards right can also enjoy some nice build-up time once it unifies Iberia.

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Outside of SP I'd agree, but by the time you get to Pikes in SP your income is so high it simply doesn't mater with cost. And on availability the Tericos lose badly, not to mention the cost difference between nobles and Tericos is only 60 florins.

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Yes, the Military Academy is a pain to build but 4 turns isn't a whole lot and the 4800 florins is "paid back" in Tercio savings in about 10 turns.
I'd rather have more income than less, if I don't get major disadvantages.

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AND we haven't even looked at how the supporting armies square up, for Pike support Scotland is FAR better IMHO.

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Really? No musketeers, no charge 8 cavalry, no pavise xbows and of course no Jinettes....
I will admit your archers are better though.
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After 1.2 all our opinions may become irrelevant, but for now let Tercios hold the defensive pike crown, with Nobles a distinguished runner-up.

Aventuros will beat both of them on offense though.

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Originally Posted by Miracle

Yes, the Military Academy is a pain to build but 4 turns isn't a whole lot and the 4800 florins is "paid back" in Tercio savings in about 10 turns.
I'd rather have more income than less, if I don't get major disadvantages.

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The influence of the military academy requirement on availability and logistics is not strictly limited to one city having to build a military academy. You have two options:

1. Raise only 1 military academy, and deal with the ever-increasing strain of having to transport your Tercios further and further to get to the frontline action, and further back to the rear to be retrained if you so desire.

OR

2. Raise more academies as you expand in an attempt to keep their production more toward where the action is happening in your empire.

#1 ends up being costly monetarily because it means your troops spend a lot of time walking to the action, and therefore are having fully wasted turns, which you should rightly count as economic loss in the amount of their upkeep, since other troops could be easily produced at the front lines instead of walking for multiple turns.

#2 ends up being costly monetarily because you're constantly putting up new military academies and waiting to be able to recruit more Tercios, which costs both money and turns. Not to mention you may again have to build blacksmith buildings if the new Tercio center doesn't have them yet.

Noble Pikes are vastly superior in this respect because any old huge city you capture can produce them right off the bat, so you incur no additional costs or logistical problems from having or using them - you simply retrain them or recruit more at the front, and fight with them.

So as you can see, the cost-benefit problem is not nearly so clear-cut as you would like to make it, and personally I doubt if the lower cost of the Tercios can outweigh the horrible availability and logistical problems they create due to their tech requirements.

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Tercios go straight from unarmored to light mail, then heavy mail. That corresponds to +7 armor. Nobles go from +8 to +9 for full plate. Check this and this .

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We determined that it DOESN'T work like that, we don't know exactly how it works, (I chose the next Best option although we never proved that was the case either), but we do know the protection is worse in cases where it jumps from nothing to light mail than it should be.

Also, I've seen Partial Plate listed as 8 not 9 which matches the values for Noble Pikes. That makes it +2 not +1.

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Pikes, if properly handled and if used in tandem with arquebusiers/musketeers, are excellent in field battles. It's a pity the Scots don't get indigenous gunpowder troops to complement their pikes. I find it odd you excluded bridge battles, because that's where I'd agree that pikes form an excellent defense. It's be crazy to use pikes for siege assault - anybody knows that - so for you to suggest that I'd do such a thing is insulting. Personally I prefer to avoid being sieged in the first place and destroy enemy armies in the field, but that's a difference in personal playstyle.

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Actually I was excluding NON-Bridge Field battles, In bridge battles and sieges the Pikes are supreme.

I also wasn't trying to be insulting was addressing both you, and ANYONE ELSE who might be reading but who has never used pikes. My comment:

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then i respectfully submit that you have no clue about how to use pikes.

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was NOT meant as an insult. It merely meant that some of your comments led me to believe you didn't fully understand the distinct nature of what does and does not effect pike fights. That limits how much you can know about how to use them well. I'm not calling you stupid, just saying that it's my opinion you perhaps don't know enough about pikes as I feel i do.

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Against infantry (which pikes get a penalty towards) and against very high defense cavalry, it does matter. The pikeman's goal is to quickly kill as many attackers as possible before they get close. The difference between 9 and 11 attack makes a significant difference in this regard. Note that I'm playing without any mods or fixers. After 1.2 cavalry will have their shields fixed and will be more tough to kill.

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A LOT of things are in play here that your NOT taking account of. Fist the Long Pike attribute nullifies the Spear penalty. Second, Pikes attack at a rate about twice as fast as normal sword attacks. Third, when out of guard mode Pikes bunch up fast and will quickly be fighting in 4 ranks. thats 8 times as many attacks for the same frontal area. The kill rate is now so high that it has Little real effect on the final outcome, it only matters when the fight is close to begin with. If it's not close, (and pikes are such good meat-grinders it very rarely is), then it doesn't matter over much. Even the difference between 5 and 11 is only just enough to be noticeable.

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True, but the marginal armor difference between Nobles and Tercios simply doesn't warrant the increased cost. Maybe you can do some scientific, empirical tests if you want to prove otherwise (I don't have time to do those right now).

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I've used Pikes a Lot, believe me, it matters a hell of a lot as every man a Pike nit loses compromises it's strength doubly as it cuts into attacking power due to less attacks, but also because it means some f the pikemen in the unit will have less other pikes backing them up, it becomes a case of steadily increasing returns. killing a few extra guys can tip a fight even more decisively than an attack difference with pikes, especially against other pikes.

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It makes a difference when one faces high dread Mongol/Timurid armies, but I'd agree that morale isn't very high on the priority list.

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Thats more or less what I was saying BTW.

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Scots start with one built-up settlement and no relatively quick access to plentiful and rich merchant resources (Timbuktu/Arguin). Spain if it plays its cards right can also enjoy some nice build-up time once it unifies Iberia.

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Yes, but even after you've kicked out the moors and Portugal you'll have Milan, France and Sicily breathing down your neck, you simply can't secure the Iberian Peninsula as quickly, that means the Scots can start concentrating on pure growth much earlier than the Spanish can.

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Yes, the Military Academy is a pain to build but 4 turns isn't a whole lot and the 4800 florins is "paid back" in Tercio savings in about 10 turns.
I'd rather have more income than less, if I don't get major disadvantages.

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I was actually pointing out that A) the price difference isn't worth getting worked up over. Noble pikes are slightly more effective and cost slightly more.

And B) with so much money coming in the relative costs i terms of both base price and upkeep really don't matter, you could recruit far more than you could ever use. So in many ways, the price in SP simply doesn't matter, it wouldn't matter if they where twice the price they are, the cost difference wouldn't be large enough to make the ob;e Pikes worse as you could STILL recruit and keep more than you'd ever need or use.

Of course, Foz points out another good point too if you do take it into account.

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Really? No musketeers, no charge 8 cavalry, no pavise xbows and of course no Jinettes....
I will admit your archers are better though.

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This is one of the big reasons I feel you don't know how to use Pikes well. Pike based armies need certain types of support unit. The cost in unit slots of including the pikes and all the support units will not normally leave you with any room to include frivolities such as missile units or Heavy Cav.

First you need a solid center of 6-8 Pikes, you then need to back that up with at least 1 AP melee unit and 1 Heavily armored melee unit, (stuff like Dismounted Chivalric Knights), per flank. You'll also need at least 2 light Cav units per flank and at least a spear unit per flank. Lastly you'll need a mobile reserve of troops to plug the inevitable holes.

Overall only missile units that are really good in melee are worth bringing. Thats where Scots archers have you. They can actually fulfill the AP melee unit job nicely. Your Jinnetes might not be bad light Cav, but I'd say the archers beat them as missile units and Border Horse make fine light Cav in any case.

Don't get me wrong, if you can get hold of Conquistadors then they can come close to replacing the AP melee unit due to their unusually high attack. but TBH the strengths of Spanish armies don't lie in pikes and their army isn't set up to support them as well as the Scots is.

Foz:

I'd usually go with #2.

Again, the academies aren't a problem because the Tercios are cheap and good enough to justify their construction time and cost. The armoury buildings are already assumed to be there since they're fairly low-level and the benefits to other city troops are quite significant.

In addition the likely opponent of the Spanish by the time Tercios are available is the French, who are capable of building academies themselves, so building academies at the front line isn't always necessary.

Academies also provide benefits to any general who visits. The extra command star may mean all the difference in battle.

Carl:

I'd like to see what data you have to support your armor doubts, and why your conclusion is different from Foz's who posted a few days ago.

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A LOT of things are in play here that your NOT taking account of. Fist the Long Pike attribute nullifies the Spear penalty. Second, Pikes attack at a rate about twice as fast as normal sword attacks. Third, when out of guard mode Pikes bunch up fast and will quickly be fighting in 4 ranks. thats 8 times as many attacks for the same frontal area. The kill rate is now so high that it has Little real effect on the final outcome, it only matters when the fight is close to begin with. If it's not close, (and pikes are such good meat-grinders it very rarely is), then it doesn't matter over much. Even the difference between 5 and 11 is only just enough to be noticeable.

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long_pike is useless if the pikemen can't kill their attackers before they get close. Again, I'm using vanilla so not every pikeman uses his pike 100% of the time. That necessitates killing as many opponents at a distance as possible before swords are drawn. I personally use a two rank line because it's just as effective as a four rank one at stopping cavalry attacks, plus it can better cover long musketeer lines. Those two ranks need all the attack they can get to stop attackers before they get close.

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I've used Pikes a Lot, believe me

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Give me some hard relevant numbers from reproducible custom battles and I'll believe you.

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you'll have Milan, France and Sicily breathing down your neck,

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What guarantees someone won't be breathing down the Scots' neck? After 1.2 this question may be even more relevant.

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you simply can't secure the Iberian Peninsula as quickly

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It has 8 regions vs. 7 for the British Isles, so I wouldn't be surprised, but I'd have more regions to grow and thus more capability when I'm done with this stage.

Regarding SP fiscal policy: I have a long term, fiscally conservative campaign playstyle, so don't be surprised if I greatly favor high value, low upkeep units.

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frivolities such as missile units or Heavy Cav

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This clearly indicates a difference in personal tastes, not knowledge of pikes and pike support. I use mostly light/heavy cavalry and AP missiles to support my pikes; you use mostly heavy infantry and heavy archers. You seem to have had some success with your arrangement, but I still prefer mine.

the only contest i would have is i noticed one of you fellas state that the pikemen are fighting four ranks deep which is not true.

why is there all this debate over which is better tercios or nobles. aventuros aare speroir to both you just need to use them right

i agree that the adventuros and the scott noble pikemen are the best pikes in the game. tercios are armored but not heavily.

militia pikemen once they are fully upgraded to half plate arent all that bad either.

yea man i know they completely surprised me, i fully upgraded a unit and placed them on my flank, long story short they routed but killed near 240 enemies

its in the hidden armor bonus from the upgrades. what was it 4 leather than to 6 for light mail, heavy mail deosnt show so i dont know if its factored in or not, then partial plate so you are talking about 8 armor i think.

i need to do some more unit on unit test with upgraded units like that.

for instance i havent tried it yet but i bet upgraded halberdiers to partial plate will own swordstaff militia who already have partial plate.

hopefully all this will be lined out after 1.2 so the visuals will match the actual stats and the figures on the unit description.

possibly but then the halbs cost more

400 for partial plate halberdiers versus 550 for base sword staff militia.

i tested it last night and they actually do own the sword staff. i just wish you could get them in the high era.:beam:

nice

You may consider me a doofus, but I like using pikes on siege assaults. After the defender has been cleared from the wall, sending a unit or two of pikes up the street that the defender is most likely to use almost always guarantees a victory---especially if the AI attacks them within range of my archers up on what's left of the walls. There's no way for the AI to get past the pikes and it's fish-in-a-barrel time.

yea but then you use alot of pikes to the defenders missle unit and the towers and freindly fire. id just use a high deff armored unit