How do you get anywhere in this game?

I'm at around turn 137, playing England on hard. I've been fighting the French and the Danes nearly all that time. I win victory after victory on the battlefield but I never seem to get anywhere. If I capture a settlement, I move my army off (I can only support three, I'm almost always broke) they just send a little army in to take it back. I'm constantly running back and forth putting out fires. I've got a decent foothold in France, but not much considering how long I've been at it.

If I do decide to make a concerted effort and get all my armies together for a coordinated attack, suddely the pope decides to tell me I'm not allowed to attack them anymore, although they continue to attack me.

So I slaughter them on the field but the French just keep coming, and the Danes just keep coming and I get nowhere. And no matter how much I build up my settlements with farming and whatnot I always seem to be broke.

And now to top it all off everyone's got the plague and my soldiers are being whittled away.

I think I'll just start again on normal, but I don't like that so much because no one attacks me, and I prefer it if someone attacks me first (it's all the sweeter to destroy them when they start it).

Oh well.

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Originally Posted by human_male

I'm at around turn 137, playing England on hard. I've been fighting the French and the Danes nearly all that time. I win victory after victory on the battlefield but I never seem to get anywhere. If I capture a settlement, I move my army off (I can only support three, I'm almost always broke) they just send a little army in to take it back. I'm constantly running back and forth putting out fires. I've got a decent foothold in France, but not much considering how long I've been at it.

If I do decide to make a concerted effort and get all my armies together for a coordinated attack, suddely the pope decides to tell me I'm not allowed to attack them anymore, although they continue to attack me.

So I slaughter them on the field but the French just keep coming, and the Danes just keep coming and I get nowhere. And no matter how much I build up my settlements with farming and whatnot I always seem to be broke.

And now to top it all off everyone's got the plague and my soldiers are being whittled away.

I think I'll just start again on normal, but I don't like that so much because no one attacks me, and I prefer it if someone attacks me first (it's all the sweeter to destroy them when they start it).

Oh well.

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My short answer is you are a victim of the lack of diplomacy on harder levels. The AI wont take any ceasefire deals, and keeps coming and coming, ontop of that every AI faction will come for you at some point.

I have no problem with a harder game for a human, but one would think that the AI should be more adpt at diplomatic options.

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Originally Posted by human_male

I'm at around turn 137, playing England on hard. I've been fighting the French and the Danes nearly all that time. I win victory after victory on the battlefield but I never seem to get anywhere. If I capture a settlement, I move my army off (I can only support three, I'm almost always broke) they just send a little army in to take it back. I'm constantly running back and forth putting out fires. I've got a decent foothold in France, but not much considering how long I've been at it.

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To be honest, it sounds like you've been having a good game. What you describe is what I like about M2TW so far: the strategic level feels "tighter" than in RTW and reminiscent of MTW; it is hard to expand without exposing another part to counter-attack.

There are players here who win the game by turn 50, so I guess they could give you advice on how to overcome the problem. I suspect it involves being very aggressive and "rushing" the AI, expanding everywhere with modest sized forces. I've noticed that if you sack settlements you get vast sums of money that totally free up the resource constraint and could be used to support many armies that swamp the AI.

But, as I say, I would be careful about going too far down that path as a game that is challenging at turn 137 sounds more attractive to me than one that is over on turn 40.

A few other tips:

- Fighting excommunicated factions frees you of the Pope's restraint. Don't attack the AI; try to get it excommunicated first. Crusading against nearby excommunicated factions is an enormous benefit and should help free things up.

- I've given up having big garrisons: anything large enough to beat off a decent AI army is an army and should not be stuck immobile in a settlement as a garrison. So I keep minimal garrisons (except free upkeep units) and try to place "rapid response" forces that are in marching distance of several of my settlments. These can be half stack or so, and should protect your lands while you launch offensives elsewhere.

- Concentrate on knocking out one enemy at a time; because of income bonuses, two half-strength foes are more dangerous than one full strength.

- Look for "corner positions". For example, as Britain eliminating Scotland means you no longer have a northern border. Spain and Scandanavia might also be natural places you can expand into that do not increase the size of your border.

- On the economy: prioritise economic buildings - farms, ports and trade facilities; learn how to use merchants. Have only 3 or so castles; devote the rest of your settlements to cities oriented around the economy. Get trade rights with everyone. Upgrading city walls and garrison building will let you keep a lot of zero upkeep militia.

econ21's pretty much got it. I'd also add planning exactly where you're going to expand - I tend to plan my expansions in blitzes of several provinces in a short space of time, followed by consolidation, then planning which to attack next, etc. etc.

Sacking settlements is also definitely the way to go - you can get vast sums of money from some of the more developed ones.

I suspect you may also have too many castles. A friend of mine did that on his first game and he got into serious debt.
In my current game as England I own all of Britain and most of France and I have but one castle (Angers). That's all I need.
So if you have lots of unnecessary castles convert them to towns and get them raking in the cash with ports, markets etc.

Hope that helps.

Your expereinces sound like the problem I was having when I first started playing MTW2. The bottom line seems to be that like me you found that by mid-game you were permanently broke, unable to support or train armies, unable to build and unable to bribe. I got so fed up with it that I quit playing and have only just started again having found out what the problem was.

I discovered that this problem was largely due to the 'Revenue Calculation Bug' which cripples trade income in version 1.0. So, first advice is make sure you have downloaded the latest patch.

The second bit of advice I would give is concentrate on making money. As a general rule my first aim when spending any money in MTW2 is how much of a return I will get on my investment. Spending money on buildings that give you imba troops is great as a short term option at the start of a campaign and as a final strategy once your trade income is flowing but in mid-game you need to be careful as those imba troops cost a fortune to equip and maintain and if you haven't got the money then buying the buildings that let you train them is pointless.

Finally, keep and eye on your tax revenues, make sure they are always maxed, unless you really need rapid population growth, and get a grip on the use of merchants. Oh! final tip....make money out of diplomats by selling maps as often as possible.

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Originally Posted by human_male

So I slaughter them on the field but the French just keep coming, and the Danes just keep coming and I get nowhere.

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I'd advise slaughtering them in their towns and castles instead of in the field. You grow while their ability to produce troops shrinks. Go straight for the jugular.

Lots of good advice here on economics already. If you can't afford to steadily build troops in your castles, there's little value in them being castles.

You don't say, but is Scotland still around? Assuming that A) Scotland is gone and B) you have captured the entirety of the British Isles, you should have no more than one castle in the home islands. No more is necessary. Caen will suffice for your castle troops needs on the mainland until you've expanded sufficiently.

It sounds to me as if you aren't concentrating sufficiently on economic development. In cities, build the market line of buildings and the trade port line of buildings. That generates the bulk of the money.

When you play MTW2 on normal, you don't really get the feeling that it's that easy(you said you want the AI to attack first and I have to say that happens frequently) , but of course when you start on hard first and then go back to normal, it might feel a lot easier... :2thumbsup:

When I play a new game I always start on normal so I can get a grasp on the gameplay and such. Perhaps you could try on normal and see how things go?

But remember this: NEVER GIVE UP! NO SURRENDER! even when thing look bad, don't stop playing...try to solve your problems. Did the medieval lords get a second chance?

I'll add another tip I didnt see mentioned. Train up 6-8 good assassins and a couple good spies. Send them into a town/fortress and let them reduce the buildings to rubble. Then move onto the next town/fortress. After you do this to a few of the surrounding enemy towns/fortresses they cant produce and field an effective army against you. Their economy will take a huge hit and maybe even experience rebellion if you kill their generals too. Then you can take them out at your leisure.

The best thing about MTW2 in particular is that there are many ways to skin this cat.

The easiest is to blitzkrieg the ai sack everything, if you concentrate on economics then you will have the $ to succeed with most strategies.


As for the Pope bribing the Pope makes life a lot easier, say 1-300 fl/turn (= to 1 unit upkeep only) will generally keep you at +9 or above on the Pope-o-meter. That allows you to get the Pope to call a crusade on your favorite excommed faction, usually Milan or HRE.

Try baiting the ai with a small unit in their territory, often they will attack and you can get them excommed. Then they are at your mercy.

You only need a couple of castles, the towns should be garrisoned by free militia units. I concentrate on getting highways so I have rapid response to any threat. I also unit spies to/towers to keep me aware of enemy movements anywhere near my boundaries.


Crusade for profit. Sacking Jerusalem is very profitable, as english use mercenary ships once you reach the meditterean coast. Boost the size of your mercenary navy by landing and recruiting more ships till your get say 4 or 5, that should keep your army safe from pirates and most enemy navies.

I think its important to carve out an empire which is defensible , that is try and get provinces that do not have many borders, as english that means for example take over scandinavia should be your goal first , that will knock out denmark and give you income without much defense. Even if you loose a province to the French, it will be worth it to consolidate your power.

Thanks very much. I have been doing what most of you suggest... I got rid of the Scotts and have the entire British Isles, I've had only one castle until recently where I captured another French one, I only have free upkeep units in settlements, I concentrate on economic developments in settlements (except where I need to increase order so I build a town hall or something), I have trade rights with everyone I can reach, and I'm on 1.1.

I haven't tried a crusade yet though, and I find assassins useless. I trained a couple of them right up early on but they just get killed even when their chances are up around 70%. Now I don't even bother.

I'll try and make peace with the French and concentrate on the Danes, but they'll probably just attack right away again.

I don't really want to give up, but I can't really go on like this. I mean what's the time limit on this game? It's going to be the 20th century before I win at this rate.

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Originally Posted by human_male

Thanks very much. I have been doing what most of you suggest... I got rid of the Scotts and have the entire British Isles, I've had only one castle until recently where I captured another French one, I only have free upkeep units in settlements, I concentrate on economic developments in settlements (except where I need to increase order so I build a town hall or something), I have trade rights with everyone I can reach, and I'm on 1.1.

I haven't tried a crusade yet though, and I find assassins useless. I trained a couple of them right up early on but they just get killed even when their chances are up around 70%. Now I don't even bother.

I'll try and make peace with the French and concentrate on the Danes, but they'll probably just attack right away again.

I don't really want to give up, but I can't really go on like this. I mean what's the time limit on this game? It's going to be the 20th century before I win at this rate.

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You get 225 turns. I always play short campaigns as I have no idea how people complete a long campaign in the time given. Im not the blitzing type.

Also, by the time a short campaign is drawing to a close, Im wanting to start again with a different faction.

Same here I get bored too easily to play the Long Campaign's, also I find them a-historical in their demands. I prefer the capture 15 provinces and get rid of the 2 named and most hated factions type missions.

I seem to have turned a corner. My enemies have taken the pressure off and now I'm making money. The only problem is the plague. Not localised ones when you have a lot of squalor, but the big one that hits everything at once. It's making it really hard to keep my troop levels up. How long does it last? I got a message saying the worst was over, and it goes down to just one settlement, then the next turn it explodes again and it's everywhere. Is it like this for the rest of the game?

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Originally Posted by Quickening

You get 225 turns. I always play short campaigns as I have no idea how people complete a long campaign in the time given. Im not the blitzing type.

Also, by the time a short campaign is drawing to a close, Im wanting to start again with a different faction.

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You're joking! How are you supposed to manage that?

I think the game ends sometime in the aerly 1500's

If a city has the plague, don't move anyone in or out, it'll spread.

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Originally Posted by human_male

You're joking! How are you supposed to manage that?

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Its an option, at the start of the Grand Campaign you get to choose whether you want to play a Long or Short game.

I'm playing the short Venetian Campaign at the moment which requires me to have an empire of 15 regions and eliminate the Milanese and Byzantine factions.

For England you would need 15 regions and elimination of Scotland and France.

Its not that difficult to do in the time allowed but does mean you have to be more focussed on your campaign objectives rather than choosing random targets of opportunity as they arise.

Basically, I found that there was no need to worry about the 15 regions as you will get them most or less automatically as a result of eliminating the target factions. So, the key thing was to concentrate on the faction targets and not waste resources attacking others.

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Originally Posted by Stuperman

If a city has the plague, don't move anyone in or out, it'll spread.

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Does the deliberate infection strategy still work in MTW2?

You know, where you move spies from your infected city to an enemy city and deliberately give it the plague.

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Originally Posted by Didz

Does the deliberate infection strategy still work in MTW2?

You know, where you move spies from your infected city to an enemy city and deliberately give it the plague.

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YES and the AI will do it. When the black death :skull: hits jest do nothing till 1 turn after it leaves your city. Please do not try to keep units refiled or new ones made. Not even spies or priest. I will not even defend until after it leaves. I jest went through it again last weekend. Only city with a problem was the AI sending in a spy. SadCat :sweatdrop:

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Originally Posted by human_male

I seem to have turned a corner. My enemies have taken the pressure off and now I'm making money. The only problem is the plague. Not localised ones when you have a lot of squalor, but the big one that hits everything at once. It's making it really hard to keep my troop levels up. How long does it last? I got a message saying the worst was over, and it goes down to just one settlement, then the next turn it explodes again and it's everywhere. Is it like this for the rest of the game?

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The great plague only lasts for a handful of turns. I think it's about 3 full turns per city, but some cities will get it after others so the whole thing may take 6 turns or so - assumning you don't spread it around.

I tend to see a huge increase in my economy after it passes. I don't know if this is a result of reduced upkeep or less squalor, but when all is said and done the plague doesn't affect strategy all that much.

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Originally Posted by Quickening

I have no idea how people complete a long campaign in the time given.

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It's honestly not difficult. Blitzing is not required, it just requires steady expansion. Worst case scenario is to play a faction that only has one starting territory, and I'm not certain there are any of those. If there are, you have 225 turns to take 44 territories, or 1 province every 5.11 turns, which is not a really outrageous rate of expansion. I've heard of people who can win a long campaign in 50-75 turns, which is some serious blitzkrieg.

If I were the English in the situation described I would be looking at taking the Danish captial. Arhus is a huge cash cow, take that Antwerp and Burges and the money be yours.

I'd say the ealier replies have covered most of obvious solutions, that it's a $$ flow problem and you need to take settlements, not just beat armies on the field. How many castles do you have vs cities? You might also want to shop around for diff mods, that enhances game play or mod your own, so you get more $$ but still harder ai that you like. you also might want to try turtling in the beginning until your $$ starts coming in, then there's looking to history for inspiration. WW1, Germany had to fight 2 fronts against Rus & French/Eng, and they were able to do so by fighting in terrain that minimized Rus #'s. Well, they also had interior line, Rus command & transport system was in the toilet and many other reasons. So block a pass, river, pass, etc w/ a minimal force to hold off enemy army while you deal w/ one of the other faction.

the plagues were devastating, but is should affect your enemies as well no?

the way you play is how I like to play mine, that is running resources from place to place as multiple factions attack. cause past a certain point when you're just churning out hordes of units and blitzing through regions is kinda boring.

Another point, is to look at your armies. If you don't really need an expensive unit, replace it with a cheaper unit. For example, you rarely need 6 DFK's holding your line, 3 DFK's and 3 spear milita will do just as good.

Also, disband your navy. Seriously, it's damn expensive for what it does. Keep a couple of cogs to ferry troops. Hire ships when the enemy starts blocking your trade. Look at the costs, having a ship do nothing for 3-4 turns costs the same as hiring a new ship. Sure, it costs a lot to recruit 5-10 ships in one turn, but compared to keeping the same number of ships for 15 turns of peace, it's nothing.

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Originally Posted by HoreTore

Another point, is to look at your armies. If you don't really need an expensive unit, replace it with a cheaper unit. For example, you rarely need 6 DFK's holding your line, 3 DFK's and 3 spear milita will do just as good.

Also, disband your navy. Seriously, it's damn expensive for what it does. Keep a couple of cogs to ferry troops. Hire ships when the enemy starts blocking your trade. Look at the costs, having a ship do nothing for 3-4 turns costs the same as hiring a new ship. Sure, it costs a lot to recruit 5-10 ships in one turn, but compared to keeping the same number of ships for 15 turns of peace, it's nothing.

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Horetore has a point re ships but is probably risky for factions around Mediterranean. Northern Eurp factions ie Eng,Danes just don't need that many ships till you reach the Med somehow.

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Originally Posted by human_male

I haven't tried a crusade yet though, and I find assassins useless. I trained a couple of them right up early on but they just get killed even when their chances are up around 70%. Now I don't even bother.

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Spies and assassins can be incredibly useful in economic warfare. You use your spies to get into settlements for your assassins to see what buildings your enemies have. I rarely target something that has less than a 80% chance of success. Dump a few spies into a settlement and it causes civil unrest. This might force an enemy to lower taxes to improve public order, hence they aren't making as much money as they might otherwise. Next you use your assassins to target any buildings you can safely destroy.

If you damage a building it is unusable until they repair it. Repairing costs them money. If it's something like a cathedral or other building that grants high public order bonuses it sends their public order even lower causing them to further reduce taxes. Eventually, if you have enough assassins on sabotage missions, you can get to a point where they are constantly repairing their buildings, or causing the settlement to revolt. On top of that, a faction that has all their troop production buildings damaged has a hard time to recruit or retrain troops. A faction that loses the settlement, loses the income. As the english, if you have a force nearby, you can the swoop in, fight the rebels without having to deal with the Pope excomming you. I did this against the Danes when they were bothering me in Antwerp and Bruges, and I set them back quite a bit. It took them quite a bit to recover.

I also did this with the Pope. The Pope had taken Venice, Bologna, and had Rome. I stripped the Pope of his territories by causing them to revolt, and taking that opportunity to siege it. The Pope eventually came to me and begged for Rome back.

So, this might not improve your economics, but it can certainly give you some breathing room if it forces the enemy into financial difficulties.

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Originally Posted by sbroadbent

Spies and assassins can be incredibly useful in economic warfare.

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To raise a counterpoint, I don't use assassins at all and use spies next to not at all (just as counters to enemy spies) and have no trouble expanding and winning.

I don't doubt agents can help, but if you want to win they should be used to help execute (not distract you from) the basic TW strategy:

1) Muster army
2) Attack enemy city
3) Repeat

I hardly bother with assassin's unless I intend to launch a mass terror bombing campaign on an enemy city, but spies are vital.

I keep at least one in every city to fend off enemy spies and use one with every merchant travelling abroad to spot potential take-overs. They are also useful scouts for my armies letting me know in advance what opposition and benefits I am likely to face. Though, to be honest I rarely expliot the 'open gate' option as its usually too expensive to try and force troops through.

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Originally Posted by Didz

I hardly bother with assassin's unless I intend to launch a mass terror bombing campaign on an enemy city, but spies are vital.

I keep at least one in every city to fend off enemy spies and use one with every merchant travelling abroad to spot potential take-overs. They are also useful scouts for my armies letting me know in advance what opposition and benefits I am likely to face. Though, to be honest I rarely expliot the 'open gate' option as its usually too expensive to try and force troops through.

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I tried hard not to say "agents are useles".

If spies help you take cities, and you are acting consistent with the muster armies, take cities strategy you should be fine in terms of winning the game before time runs out.

I don't tend to bother with spies to find out what enemy troops strengths are. I just go to the neareast city expecting to beat whatever the enemy has. Maybe I could do better if I micromanaged my agents, but I don't and win relatively easily.

If someone is doing a great job micromanaging agents and having trouble winning, they are probably being distracted too much from the basics. Place more emphasis on raising armies and attacking cities with them.

This is not to say you should ignore the other aspects of the game.

My problems playing the English thus far is,
1. Assassins that could knock a bottle over never mind a real target. Totally useless. How do you improve them when they cannot even knock anything over.

2. Merchants that seem to be taken over by inferior one (ie a 8* by a 4* or lose when you try to take them over.

3. Crusading armies that suffer desertation whilst on the move. The HRE actually managed to attack one of my cities. I wasnt excomed and not at war beforehand.

4 other factions seem to be able to attack you but when you strike back you get a message from the pope to stop fighting? I could nt help it I was under seige and under attack?

5. The biggest gripe is with the inquisistors who seem to go after the King and heirs. I mean what king would allow himself to thrown on a fire short of a wholescale civil rebellion. Then there is the compulsary crusade which always happens to pass one of these guys by.

6. Ancillaries? How do you aquire such pagan guys in a area totally committed to the Christian cause. What is the purpose of priests and churches if you cannot accrue any good guys. You cannot even palm them off onto someone else like on the other games.

7. How do you get piety? Noone seems to be able to get past a rating of 2 then its off to the bonfire.

The graphic and sales pitch of this game really lead me to believe it would be a worthwhile play but i am going of it very quickly and reverting back to MTW1 which i think was a better game.

I do not agree with dismal ...

While the main idea behind the TW series is tactical combat and the way to get there, having agents at your disposition is a way to engage in the most favorable position...

To further your 3 points :

1 Muster army (I'd say Muster the army towards a precise objective) : to do this effective use of agents is necessary in that it permits you to muster only the troops necessary to your objective (gain of cash, of time...)

2 Attack enemy city : Can't fault you on that... But having spies can further change the type of army you will have to field, ie less artillery and less rams or towers, doors having a chance of being already open... thus further economy both in time and cash and thus the possibility of choosing a new objective faster...

3 Repeat : Exactly but with agents you should be ableto do it more often and with less cash spent

So, IMO, even in your style of play and even w/o micromanagement of agents, use of agents is a means of achiving your goals much more rapidly...

Personally, I get rather bored with the muster armies, take cities strategy which is one reason I prefer the short campaigns which have more focussed goals.

Thats always been true even with STW and I've always sought to find more imaginative solutions. I think its actually one of the weaknesses of the TW series that for the most part that strategy continues to be the easiest way to win. In MTW2 the Pope does add a slight speed bump in the process but as people have pointed out he is little more than a hinderance in the long term.

Agents are more useful if you don't do blitzing games where you normally dont have the time to train agents up. My basically blitzing strategy is to get a diplomat to Rome asap while building as many units and capturing as many rebel provinces as possible. Once I bribe Rome, I call a crusade and will usually have about 4 or 5 full stack crusade armies requiring no upkeep and will just attack in every direction at once and sacking everything. When desertion becomes a big problem, I abandon crusade and keep on using mercs until the blitz runs out of steam after which I have around 30 provinces at turn 25 or so.