Romans Ethnicities

Salve, EB Fans. As alot of you know, the Romani Groups team is hard at work on implementing Roman ethnicities into a future version of Europa Barbarorum. We believe this will add a new depth and realism to your Roman familiy members, allow for better role-play and immersion, and satisfy some people's intrest in the Roman Houses of the period. We are trying to implement a fair number of both Plebian and Patrician households, but unfortunately the Plebian houses do not have much standing among our historians' records.

Below I will present a format for the Roman Ethnicities (Hereby known as Gentes), and give you a sample Household. If any of you have a nomination for a Plebian household to be included, please write it up in the following format and post it herein, and you could see your favorite household included in the game.

Thanks for all your patience and help in advance guys.

https://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e...ome/senate.jpg

Gens Ivlia
Patrician Romani
Family Names--Caesar, Ivlvs, Mento

This man is of the Ivlian Clan, an important patrician family within our beloved Res Publica, who supposedly are descended from Ivlvs--Ascanivs, and thus from the goddess Venvs--mother of legendary Aeneas whom all Romans descend from, and are the heirs of Alba Longa. The Ivlii are prestigious and proud, and rose to great preeminence early in the days of the Res Publica. It was a Ivlii who saw the risen Romulus before his ascent into the Heavens, spreading the word of his deification as Qvirinivs to the saddened Romans.

The Ivlii are perhaps the most arrogant of the Patrician gentes, they are descended from a goddess, after all. They are more likley to be vain, proud, and stoic. The Ivlii are skilled leaders and charismatic politicians, builders, traders, and tax collecters. Thier method of rule is fair but rigid.

Zak, the formatting of roman lettering/spelling goes like this:

In titles or places where the names are used by themselves, we do use the "v" for "u", so Gens Ivlia is correct as the title, but in *English text* we switch it to "u" for ease of reading. So once you are in the english paragraph you would switch it over to Gens Iulia.

The formatting was decided upon a long while ago, but it seems to be one that was a compromise and specially needed for this faction. One is a realistic title, the way you'd find it written in Latin, the other is a transliteration into English to make it pronounceable/readable.

Forgive me if there are any historical flaws in this.

Gens Licinivs
Plebeian Romani
Family names--Crassvs, Lvcvllvs

This man is a member of the plebeian gens Licinius. It is a subject of rumours that this family is descendant of the Etruscans. It is one of the most prominent plebeian families, for it was a Licinius, Caius Licinius Calvus Stolo, who together with Lucius Sextius Lateranus passed the Lex Licinia Sextia. This law reinstituted the consulship, and declared that one of the two consuls had to be a Plebeian. The Licinii are ferocious defenders of Plebeian rights and are fairly good speakers.

Members of the gens Licinius are more likely to be decadent, warmongers and fluent speakers. They are great in collecting taxes, although most of the times that skill is practised too well. They are sharp but selfish people, and aren't afraid of wars with in particular Iberians and easterners. Though plebeian, they tend to be proud leaders.

So how expansive can this get? Since Roman politics became so incredibly complicated and dependent on family ties it would seem justifiable for Rome to have more ethnicities than anyone else. For example, how much room would there be for emerging ethnicities due to Novi Homines? Could a Patrician, seeing more oppurtunities for political advancement by being a popularis, change to a Plebian? I can't help but cite Claudius/Clodius during the trials and tribulations of the late Republic.

Let's not go crazy. We already have a selection of families, we are just looking for a few more plebian gentes to add in. We cant have more ethnicities than any other faction, we must be fair to every faction. Changing from one to the other is probably not possible although my knowledge of code is very limited. Theres no reason a Patrician couldnt be a Populares though.

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Originally Posted by abou

Could a Patrician, seeing more opportunities for political advancement by being a popularis, change to a Plebian?

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no.
a Patrician always stays a Patrician because they believe they come from the founders of Rome
a pleb can never become a Patrician, unless marries into a Patrician family
so adopted.. normally because he is rich enough to become a member of the middle class (i have forgotten the Latin)
the family tree follows the Patrician families

as with political advancement, a pleb can only be a tribune of the people, no other political positions that would directly effect the republic
unlike the Patrician but if he wanted to be a tribune of the people, he could but he would abandon his political career for the sake of the title

i might be wrong so correct me at will

You're wrong on a couple of points, but here is the main one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Publius_Clodius

You are wrong, if I understand you well that is ~:)

Like abou said, Claudius is a perfect exemple, in reality. Publius Claudius Pulcher, named Clodius because this was the dialect of the plebs, legally changed to become a plebeian. He did this because he thought a tribune of plebs could achieve much more in those times, and because he was popularis through and through. He succeeded more or less, with the plebeians in rome rising up in the streets. He reinstituted the Collegia as criminal gangs, and did a lot of 'bad' things, so to speak.

The Equites, what you're speaking of, were just people who had personal posessions above some level, I don't recall which. The Equestrian rank could be granted to you by the senate I presume. I think that one sort of became a patrician after he became a member of the senate, which was the definition of a 'novus homo' (EDIT: a novus homo was a unknown man or a plebeian that became a consul in his life, I think). That or you were granted the right by the censors.

In-game it would be VERY, VERY hard I think. On top of that it wasn't that common, though I think (I haven't experienced it yet in my romani campaign) that there should be a novus homo trait and the children of such maybe should become patricians.

EDIT: don't I think a lot, but know so little ~;)

equestrian status would be granted by the census, not the senate. its simply a rank according to how much income the family held at the time of the census, just like senators, who had to have an income of a certain level to be included in the senate.

and no, a pleb did not become a patrician after entering the senate. A pleb could however become a nobleman--'nobile' if one of his ancestors had held the consulship. and after a plebian became consul, he enobled his family forever afterwards.

About appointing titles I do not know much indeed ~:). It is clearly, as Zaknafien has corrected me, the censors that 'appoint' the Equestrian classes. I do know that they also could take away that title in any case, not bringing their personal belongings into account at that time. I believe I read somewhere that the censors even could deprive someone of his patrician (or be it nobile?) rank. And for the patrician-nobile thing: I clearly misinterpreted what being a patrician is. Is it so that only the gens that 'originally' inhabited the pomerium were called patricians and that those later arrived were the plebs?

Patricians were the original wealthy and important noble families of the kingdom. After the founding of the republic, the senate was composed entirely of patrician famlilies. During the social upheavals in the 5th and 6th centuries the plebs eventually got some representation and many of them became quite wealthy through trade and farming, and some of these were allowed into the senate afterwards, to be part of the new magistriaces (i.e., the tribunate of plebs). But just because that family was now part of the senate, they were still plebs.

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Originally Posted by Will_YouFight_ForME

no.
a Patrician always stays a Patrician because they believe they come from the founders of Rome
a pleb can never become a Patrician, unless marries into a Patrician family
so adopted.. normally because he is rich enough to become a member of the middle class (i have forgotten the Latin)
the family tree follows the Patrician families

as with political advancement, a pleb can only be a tribune of the people, no other political positions that would directly effect the republic
unlike the Patrician but if he wanted to be a tribune of the people, he could but he would abandon his political career for the sake of the title

i might be wrong so correct me at will

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I'm afraid you're completely wrong, as others have noted.

A Patrician was, as Zak said, a member of one of the leading families, it has the same root as pater, which means father. The original purpose of the Senate was as an advisory body which ratified the decisions of the assembly. As the Senate gained more (strictly unconstitutional) power Plebeians lobied and eventually gained entrance.

Originally the consulate was closed to Plebeians but by our time period a wealthy Plebeian could hold any office a patrician could, with the exception of some priesthoods. Patricians were never allowed to be Plebeian Tribuns, however.

Most important to note is that it is very difficult to know precisely when the destinction between Plebeian and Patrician came about. Presumably the legal devision should pre-date the closing off offices such as the consulate, yet scholars have examined the lists of sonsuls and found Plebeian names in very early years. Possible explanations for this are that the distinction between the two classes post-dates the Republic or that those familes lost Patrician status. In any case Patrician and Plebeian is not a question of "race", the Claudii were Sabine after all.

As to Equites, they did not become a middle-class until the time of Augustus, prior to that they were simply the apex of the military tree. It is important to note that equites could be Patrician or Plebeian, but not senators.

Ok thanks for the info Zaknafien and Calicvla~:)

Gens Caecilia
Plebeian Romani
Family names--Metellvs, (Niger)

This man is a member of the Caecilius clan. The Caecilii are said to be the descendents of Caeculus, son of Vulcanus, founder of Praeneste and enemy of Aeneas. This family is one of the richest and most respectable plebeian families in Roma. Though Lucius Caecilius Metellus Denter was defeated at Arretium in 284 BCE, twelve years later the family still holds some of the most important offices in the republic. Though plebeian themselves, the Caecilii tend to be rather conservative in their opinions. They are a very pious family, but their military skills are formidable as well.

As the sons of Vulcanus, members of the gens Caecilius have a fire in them that fuels their ambitions. They are generally great commanders, but never forget that they thank their victories to the gods. In their piety, they are fiercely loyal to the republic and all it represents, including the patrician families. By their support to the optimates, they sometimes have a benefit in the elections for the offices.

I hope this one suffices ~:)

Where could I get a complete list of the Romanii traits? I'd like to write the description for the Antonii and the Domitii (already have the info) but I'm not 100% sure which traits to suggest as likely. Thanks

There is no list. You have to open the trait file and search for "Roman"

This sounds awesome, but is it connected to the character's actual name for characters other than the starting ones? For instance, if a character named Caius Iulius Caesar is adopted, will he have the Iulii trait? If Publius Cornelius Scipio, will he have the Cornelii trait?

This new gens system might actually enable EB to connect the nomen and cognomen again, instead of connecting the praenomen and nomen as they do now. A character could be born as Publius Cornelius_Scipio, and if he were to say, defeat Hannibal in Africa, would officially become Publius Africanus as far as the game is concerned (I'll call it his "game name"). In the current build, there is no way to identify what family he is in if you don't remember. But in the new system, he would still have the Cornelii trait, so you would know what family he was in, even if it wasn't in his game name. You could just place an imaginary "Cornelius" in the middle if you wanted. His kids would still have the "game name" of Africanus, but I'm assuming they would also inherit the Cornelii trait, so you could remember to put an imaginary "Cornelius" in their name.

The system isn't yet finished and the details haven't yet been ironed out, so I can't really answer many of your questions, and we'd like to save some of the fun for the next release.

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Originally Posted by Sheep

For instance, if a character named Caius Iulius Caesar is adopted, will he have the Iulii trait? If Publius Cornelius Scipio, will he have the Cornelii trait?

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Yes, but...

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Originally Posted by Sheep

This new gens system might actually enable EB to connect the nomen and cognomen again...

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Yes it does. It also would support proper handling of agnomina (Verrucosus, Africanus, Nasica, etc) and proper adoptive names. However (and it pains me to say this) I don't know if we'll ever get around to actually implementing them. Doing adoptive names correctly would require a huge amount of work: adding something like 500 traits and a similar number of triggers. Agnomina handling would require roughly the same.

The number of traits and triggers required to handle all possible permutations of something like Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus Aemilianus is left as an exercise to the reader.

I understand that the amount of work that would be required is immense. But I think everyone here who plays EB, and especially us Romani fans, would be immensely excited by such a feature in EB. It's a fact that the romani naming system isn't that historically accurate at the present time, and that such a 'genus' system would help a lot.
But I also know that the amount of work needed is maybe too much to handle and have a clear view of. But from what Zaknafien said to start this topic, I had the slight hope that this monstruous task had been started already. Anyway, I hope that it will be implemented.

If there actually was such a system, then EB would not be a game anymore.
It would be a work of art, a masterpiece. The most realistic strategy game based on the Antiquity.
Good luck to all the EB members working on it!

Aside from pragmatic benefits, this would allow for some interesting RP opportunites.

"Yes, the lad is a dazzlingly handsome young military prodigy - but his family and ours have hated each other since the days of the founding! Here, my dear daughter, I introduce you to your new husband. Yes, he's obese, incompetent, corrupt and possibly insane, but by the sandals of Mercury, his line are old allies, and loyalty must mean something!"

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Originally Posted by Ailfertes

But from what Zaknafien said to start this topic, I had the slight hope that this monstruous task had been started already.

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Most of the work to associate traits with the gens and to allow heritability of gens name and cognomen has indeed done. The work to extend this system to deal with agnomina and/or proper adoptive names has not. We'd like to do it if time permits, but there are a great many other features which would probably take priority.

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Originally Posted by Ailfertes

Gens Licinivs
Plebeian Romani
Family names--Crassvs, Lvcvllvs

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ailfertes

Gens Caecilia
Plebeian Romani
Family names--Metellvs, (Niger)

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I know you're still out there somewhere Ailfertes. I thought I'd say thank you on behalf of the EB Romani team for your help digging up info on these two gentes. The trait work is finally finished and they'll appear in EB 1.1.

Gens Ivlia
Patrician Romani
Family Names--Caesar, Ivlvs, Mento



is this in EB 1.0? I've only played the romani for a short time and didnt notice them, but maybe I should have gave it more time?

Yes, those are in EB 1.0.

Hows this, after editing?

Gens Lvtativs
Plebeian Romani
Family Names—Catvlvs, Cerco, and Pinyhia

This man is a member of the plebeian clan Lvtativs. As their name implies ceramic merchants this clan had not merited notice until after the Latin War. Since, this clan has become one of the foremost plebeian families within our beloved Res Publica. These Lvtatii claim to possess a much favored burial-place called the Pulchrum Lvtatiorvm, located beyond the Tiber. Following the last Secessio Plebis and enactment of the Lex Hortensia the Lvtatii have become even more affluent and influential; rising to preeminence in the latter days of the Res Publica.

Although the Lvtatii are of the gentes minores this clan is well respected and their prestige continues to increase. They are more likely to be well informed, proud, and resolute. The Lvtatii are renowned naval commanders, politicians, businessmen, authors, and traders.


Gens Aemilivs
Patrician Romani
Family Names--Lepidvs, Barbula, Buca, Mamercvs, Papvs, Pavllvs, Regilvs and Scaurvs

This man is of the Aemilivs Clan, a very ancient and one of the most important patrician families within our beloved Res Publica, who allegedly are descended from Mamercvs—called Aimilios because of his refinement and fine speaking ability. Aemilii traditions tell that Mamercus was the fourth son of Numa Pompilivs, the second king of our ancient and venerated city. Also called the Flaminii, the Aemilii are affluent, competitive, and rose to great preeminence late in the days of the Res Publica. It was Aemilia, the daughter of Aeneas, who was the blessed mother of the divine Romulus, the legendary founder of our beloved Roma.

The Aemilii are perhaps the most proud and respected of the Patrician gentes, as they claim descent from the daughter of Aeneas. They are more likely to be modest, proud, and stoic. The Aemilii are component leaders, politicians, builders, businessmen, and traders. Their method of rule is fair and flexible.

Right, must check date of post first.

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Originally Posted by Atilius

The trait work is finally finished and they'll appear in EB 1.1.

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Ya-harrrr! The cap'n approves! :7pirate:

Interesting discussion; and very relevant in any attempt to model the Roman system.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

During the social upheavals in the 5th and 6th centuries the plebs eventually got some representation and many of them became quite wealthy through trade and farming, and some of these were allowed into the senate afterwards, to be part of the new magistriaces (i.e., the tribunate of plebs).

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Presumably, the problem was that some of the Plebs first got rich, and then started getting annoyed that they were not allowed any power (since that was largely reserved for the patricians). You also find that many of the plebeian families are from communities outside Rome proper - obviously, the noblemen of these communities having joined Rome (voluntarily or forcibly) also demanded their right to participate in ruling their state. To some extent, we see the same basic struggle throughout the early part of Roman history down to the Latin war, as we see in the decades from the Gracchii down to the Social War - just on a larger scales.

Among the plebeian families, you have the Porcii (Cato, of course), Sempronii (the Grachii), Livius (Salinator - victor at Metaurus), Cassius, Servilius, Antonius (Marcus), Decius (the Mus is loose), Aelius (lots of consuls), and Suplicius to name some of the other prominent families.

[Edit: Deleted Furius]

Actually, evidence points to Patrician status being a later invention, in the first ten years of the consulate there are names which are associated with Plebeian families, which then dissapear from the record for a few hundred years.

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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla

Actually, evidence points to Patrician status being a later invention, in the first ten years of the consulate there are names which are associated with Plebeian families, which then dissapear from the record for a few hundred years.

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Perhaps this is not your intent, but ... I would hesitate to discard the traditional history of two centuries of civil conflict (including bunches of laws) as a latter invention. ~:)

Obviously, the precise details are unreliable (how otherwise, given that Livy et. al were writing from hundreds of years old tradition), and the actors themselves probably did not refer to themselves as patricians/plebeians but I think we can take it for pretty given that there existed a "segregation" of the classes in Rome pretty much along the lines of Patrician/Plebe.

At its heart, I suspect the Patrician/Plebeian thing is basically the age-old immigration issue - as old, and as recent, as humanity itself. It's easy to imagine "original" Romans frowning down upon those dirty immigrants from Praeneste - much the same way Scandinavians now frown upon immigrants from the middle-east [or take the case of USAmericans - themselves immigrants - and latin-americans]. Such distinctions will always be fluid (cf. a few decades ago, it was the Polish who were the "dirty immigrants" in Scandinavia... now no one would lift an eye-brow at Polish descent), shifting, and extremely hard to define - but it does not mean that the issue was not very real and manipulated politically [for a modern situation manipulating this kind of situation, consider Schwarzenegger's inability to run for President of USA].

They're more just different "dynasties" or families rather than ethnicities...

Often quite extended families, though. If I've understood correctly it would not be terribly off the mark to call them "clans".

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Originally Posted by Watchman

Often quite extended families, though. If I've understood correctly it would not be terribly off the mark to call them "clans".

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Aye...whereas ethnicity is more of Anglo-Saxon, etc

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Originally Posted by Intranetusa

Aye...whereas ethnicity is more of Anglo-Saxon, etc

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We use the word ethnicity as that is how they started off as for all factions. We don't refer to them as ethnicities in the game.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Foot

We use the word ethnicity as that is how they started off as for all factions. We don't refer to them as ethnicities in the game.

Foot

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Ah ok, I see. :2thumbsup:

I believe much of this has to do with the process of aggregating, both demographically and structurally, rural tribal affiliations into urban societies?