Merchants and Assassins

How in the world do I make these functionaries better?

My merchants are total shite. If I send them to a resource, they are smacked down by enemy merchants. If I send them after enemy merchants, they are smacked down too. What can I do to make them better? I am training them all in one city to get Merchant Guild bonuses, but it doesn't help much at all.

My assassins are not much better. When I spam them, I can get enough to have one or two survive through my arsonist training program. That's where I burn buildings repeatedly trying to get their subterfuge up. They still can't kill people though. If I build twenty or thirty of them, I can maybe end up with one assassin that will pull off a single assassination of a diplomat or some other minor functionary before he gets whacked on the next one. Once again, I'm using a Thieves Guild. Despite my repeated attempts, I've not been able to get an Assassin Guild offer.

I'm currently playing my first long campaign as Spain on M/M. I'm about to end that and start a Dane campaign where I hope to use any hints you can give me. The Merchant issue is of particular concern, since I can't find a way to keep my merchants alive.

:help:

I don't bother with either - IMO they're both more trouble than they're worth.

I pretty much only use Spies (very, very useful) and religious agents (indispensable) as my non-military forces. From what I've seen, Merchants get taken over far too easily and regularly, and Assassins don't do their job very well. It is possible to make both work (and work well), but it's just so much easier to use an army...

Always train merchants in a settlement with at least a town hall, that gives them the LegalDealer trait.
Then move your merchants around expending all movement points every turn without stopping on a resource. This you can do with an aim of reaching far away resources which tend to be more profitable. They get the WorldlyMerchant trait that way. This already allows a total of +3 finance and they won't get attacked this way.
Once you settle down on a resource, keep them there without enemy merchants in the same area as long as possible to get the Monopolist line of traits.
Use them to acquire enemy merchants only if you at least have a 60% chance of doing so.

As for assassins, arson is good. Once they get GoodConspirator up to 3rd level, use them to target skill 0 diplomats and captains with small regiments. Parking them in settlements with high level brothels also gives them useful ancillaries

Do they gain increases in Finance skill sitting on a resource? I don't think mine have ever lived long enough to do so.

I'll try the movement thing tonight, see if that bumps them up any at all.

They get Monopolist for sitting on a resource when no hostile merchant is in the same region on a resource only.

Merchants can get following good skills:
NaturalMerchantSkill (oncreation)
GoodMerchant (takeovers)
SecureMerchant (stopped takeover)
WorldlyMerchant (expend movement)
Monopolist (alone in region)
MerchantsGuildTrained (from merchant guild in town)
MerchantsGuildMember (from master or grandmaster guild in faction)

I just keep making them so I get the guild HQ's, if they die/get taken over it's an excuse to make another one. Merchants/Assassins that have no guild training are almost useless. You''ll be wasting a bunch of turns blowing up churches and other things before you can even think about actually assassinating anybody. A 1 star merchant holds up a big flashing "seize my assets" sign where ever he goes. If it's your only option make sure he's somewhere in your own land with a watchtower looking over him so you can move him off a resource whenever another merchant gets close.

On the other hand if you have a guild HQ and are popping out 4-5 star merchants/assassins you can come out with a good chance of being able to kill rebels or at least just spending a few turns sabotaging to get a 7 skill assassin. For merchant's any new one will have a 95% shot at taking over any 1 star merchants that meander by and will be skilled enough to risk sending away. I love guild HQ's, I have a theologians guild HQ with a huge cathedral and it popped out a 25 yo bishop with full piety.

I use a fort or escort unit to pre-train my merchants a little on a resource near home. Then I send them off into the world. I usually pick up monopolist a level or three this way. The guild REALLY helps, as does the town hall. Not having the latter significantly increases the chance of the negative "crooked trader" line. That really hurts. When a new trader has that, I tend to just feed it to the competition and recruit a new one.

I don't bother with assassins, though I keep promising myself to try them in a campaign I really role-play. Hungary maybe.

just remember you have a better odds of attacking another merchant than being attacked so it is always better to be the aggressor if you are weaker than them since they will attack you anyways

As to merchant, everything has already been said...

As to assassins, I'm big employer of those (my faction leader almost always get named the Killer, the Malevolent or the Tyrant....).
The main thing beside training them with sabotage missions is finding a princess...often they have no charm whatsoever or only one level and even a low level assassin get favorable odds against her. Moreover, you'll get the skilled courtesan ancillary which gives a +2 lvl.
I generally train my assassin on each and every captain within reach as even with a one eye assassin you'll get a + 1 lvl for each kill until third or four thus raising it to level 3 or 4. Add sabotage mission and retinue and you can get to a +7 or +8...
It needs of bit of micromanagement but it may be worth it...

I generally make use of high level assassin (My best reached lvl 13) to get rid of a faction in one turn
Use a stack or assassin to kill leader or heir and same on any other family member and bye bye faction, hello rebels...

The only other thing to add to merchants is I think you get a bonus when engaging another merchant if you own the territory.
I find merchants particularly good in the early game - as the Moors I have them down on three of the Timbuktu resources and they bring in about 30% of my income. This reduces over time as the trade and tax income grows, but when you're constantly at war its useful.
Assassins are frustrating but can be good if you micro manage them and for those that say they don't bother with either I'd just add that as they are part of the game, shouldn't we be playing them?! After all, the objective here can't be simply to win can it?

I find that with assassins, the Save and Load buttons are your best friends. That, and get your traits file fixed, so your assassin doesn't lose all traits for one failed mission.

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Originally Posted by Afro Thunder

I find that with assassins, the Save and Load buttons are your best friends. That, and get your traits file fixed, so your assassin doesn't lose all traits for one failed mission.

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That seemed fairly obvious to me...:yes:

It works with every kind of agents...

One thing you can do to help out with merchants (assuming you have not toggled fog of war off) is marry them to a decent level spy. This allows you to spot incoming enemy merchants. Then just back your merchant off the resource if the enemy has you out-skilled. I have never had an enemy merchant nail one of mine that was not on a resource.

The further away the resource is from your home territory, the more money you make per turn. Timbuktu is a good spot to rake in florins, as is Scandinavia. Just watch out for Danish merchants in Sweden.

I tend to only train them at the start to get the guilds. Once they are upgraded it seems to help get over the early hurdles. Merchants in particular without any starting bonuses just seem to get hoovered up by some 6-7 finance bloke camping around your cities.

I've had some success with assassins in my current Venetian campaign, getting the guild HQ up in Florence and killing off quie a few generals, including the Holy Roman Emperor twice. I'm not sure it makes that much difference to my campaign though, other factions seem to have no trouble replacing their generals. Has anyone ever managed to remove a faction through assasination? You'd think it's be possible when someone is down to their last province (although pointless by then of course). I slightly suspect the AI would just cheat and sprout new family members as needed.

It is very satisfying being able to deal instantly with foreign diplomats and princess who try for those persistent ( and often completely nonsensical) bribe attempts though.

Do these guys pick up ancillaries like the other characters?.

If you have a problem with the other factions simply surround them and take them out like the inquisitors

well, merchants are definitely worth it. In my current Milan campaign, they are earning around 5k per turn, which is almost the same as my best city at this point! I have them stationed on the gold & ivory in timbuktu, spices in aleppo(one guy there makes 900 alone) and the silk in constantinople. It'll rise soon, as I've just positioned the merchants in timbuktu, and they'll soon get the monopolist skill....

Oh, and no, I'm not using the fort exploit...

Yes, my campaign would be running in the hole if not for merchants, so they're definitely worthwhile.

Assassins are pretty worthless until you get an Assassins' Guild; tear down whatever guild you have in the city where you're building assassins and keep building them until you get one.

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Originally Posted by TeutonicKnight

My merchants are total shite. If I send them to a resource, they are smacked down by enemy merchants. If I send them after enemy merchants, they are smacked down too. What can I do to make them better? I am training them all in one city to get Merchant Guild bonuses, but it doesn't help much at all.

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These questions have been answered in more detail in other threads and guides.

This is my favourite, if you want to read one:
http://forums.totalrealism.net/showthread.php?t=2798

However, to answer the two keys issues you raise above.

If I send them to a resource, they are smacked down by enemy merchants.
Yes...They will be....the AI specifically targets merchants standing on a resource. So ,as soon as you stand a merchant on one consider it a target.

The solution is micro-management unfortunately, never leave a merchant standing on a resource blind. If it is operating in foriegn territory it has to be accompanied by a spy with a decent sight range so that you can see the hostile merchants closing on your location.

When an hostile merchant gets within striking distance, simple move your merchant off the resource. The hostile merchant will instantly lose interest and wander off. Once he has 'pissed-off' stand back on your resource point and carry on trading until he returns.

If I send them after enemy merchants, they are smacked down too.
Well there's no excuse for that. You should get a clear statement of the % odds of success before you send the merchant in, but the AI is notiously fickle about its resolution. My own advice is to basically cheat....I check the combat odds for a successful takeover and if its 85% or 95% I don't expect to lose my merchant doing the dirty deed. So, I do a CTRL+S quick save just before the attempt and if the AI thinks its being funny by killing my 8 Star merchant with its 1 Star noob trader I teach it whose really boss by reloading and making it think again. I have a sort of unwritten code of honour that says that if I get a NIL-NIL result I let it stand, and if the AI kills my merchant 3 times in a row on the re-rolls I accept it as a rare result. But having your Alan Sugar super-merchant taken out by some Dell Boy from the local market is just some computer programmers idea of a laugh, but I don't think its funny so I won't accept it.

On the same vein its just as bad when your 8* merchant is taken out by same said 2*merchants

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Originally Posted by Captain Pugwash

On the same vein its just as bad when your 8* merchant is taken out by same said 2*merchants

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Well as I say if you are micro-managing your merchants then this should not happen as you just move them off the resource and the hostile merchant loses interest.

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Originally Posted by Didz

Well as I say if you are micro-managing your merchants then this should not happen as you just move them off the resource and the hostile merchant loses interest.

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Without going as far as the fort exploit (search forums for explanation), you can anyway join your merchant with an army stack thus making it attack-proof from enemy merchants...I tend to use remnants of units to do this...

Of course, this only works on hostile territory when at war or on your own...On neutral territory, leaving even a 5-man unit will sorely lessen you reputation with the owning faction...

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Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng

Without going as far as the fort exploit (search forums for explanation), you can anyway join your merchant with an army stack thus making it attack-proof from enemy merchants...I tend to use remnants of units to do this..

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Never thought of that, in fact it never occurred to me that merchants could join armies.

I had a look at the 'Fort Expliot' thread and it looks like quite an interesting idea. Building a fort on the resource and then inserting a merchant in it sounds like an expliot to me, but then if one is going to protect ones merchants by moving them off the resource everytime an enemy merchant comes close, paying 500 florins to get the AI to protect them instead does not sound too much of a cheat. It would certainly help in the early stages of training merchants ready for dispatch to foriegn lands.

Captain Pugwash, if your 8 finance merchant is near a 2 finance one, you should be the one to take the offensive and try to aquire him

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Originally Posted by MorganFreeman

I tend to only train them at the start to get the guilds. Once they are upgraded it seems to help get over the early hurdles. Merchants in particular without any starting bonuses just seem to get hoovered up by some 6-7 finance bloke camping around your cities.

I've had some success with assassins in my current Venetian campaign, getting the guild HQ up in Florence and killing off quie a few generals, including the Holy Roman Emperor twice. I'm not sure it makes that much difference to my campaign though, other factions seem to have no trouble replacing their generals. Has anyone ever managed to remove a faction through assasination? You'd think it's be possible when someone is down to their last province (although pointless by then of course). I slightly suspect the AI would just cheat and sprout new family members as needed.

It is very satisfying being able to deal instantly with foreign diplomats and princess who try for those persistent ( and often completely nonsensical) bribe attempts though.

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It works just fine, you just need to have spies in to find where he's hiding his heirs/leader and slice away. I've removed France in this manner (only had conquered about half of it at the time) in my english campaign and Milan has probably sent their leader in outer space because i've killed everyone and they still exist. I wouldnt say assasins are worthless, they are the only counter you have to enemy priests/diplomat/spies and killing a general along with his 20 bodyguard units is pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by phunkbot

I wouldnt say assasins are worthless, they are the only counter you have to enemy priests/diplomat/spies and killing a general along with his 20 bodyguard units is pretty cool.

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Right on the mark... I always tend to send an assassin on any general that I think is gonna take the offensive on me or that I'm thinking on attacking...

Ah....to think of that 20+ 2hp bodyguards gone with one swish of a blade...

So cooooooool.....:2thumbsup:

I've just had a massive assassin slugfest around Milan, mainly becuase France decided it was going to use massed assassin's against the city and that was my only counter.

My conclusion is that assassin's are seriously unreliable and a waste of money unless you have no choice, as in this case. There seesm to be very little attention paid to the % chance of success when deciding an outcome. Even the few assassin's who made it through the 16% success period died stupid deaths eventually trying to take out noob French assassin's, and despite all my efforts more French assassin's died by their own snakes than were killed by the massive investment I made in trying to kill them.

Mind you the vision of Milan surrounded by 15+ assassin's all hacking at each other was different, if somewhat pointless.

i dont think assassins are ment to be used without quicksaving and reloading, at least not in the vanilla version. I've tried that and i have to agree, it does not work.
However, I rarely have to load more than once, generally just moving your assassin next to his target and then attacking (instead of attacking from all the way) does the trick for me. Also i have to add, how on earth are you going to get your cardinals promoted without getting a few slots vacant in the cardinal college ? what? you say those guys die of natural causes? they do? wow, i'll have to look into that

also, in my current campaign the growth of my army upkeep about matches the growth of my settlements' income (just 1-2k bellow it), the 5-6k (which is about to double as soon as i find how the heck to i get to bloody timboktu, my ships dont seem to want to go all the way down the cost of africa) i get from merchants is what rakes the money in from me, and thats leaving the extra cash i get every time the AI descides to foolishly send a merchant out of a city anywhere in western and mid-western europe as an extra bonus. So i'd say merchants are not only not worthless, for me they are what gets me money stored for when i need in buckets.

And, since an assassin costs 500 (correct me if im wrong), by the time you get it to 4-5 stars he will probably have delt more than that in priests and diplomats killed, and that only gets better. So i'd say they are pretty cost effective.

i apologise i'm doubleposting, i'd appreciate it if a mod could merge my posts if that matters

:balloon2:

@phunkbot : Exactly... The quicksave/quickload is your best friend when using agents and particularly merchants and assassins (spies are so much easier, wonder why...)

Most of all, I use them to remove the Ai generals and bodyguards, but rather than leaving them idle any diplomat, cardinal, princess or captain can capture their attention...

If nobody's worth it around those parts, there is certinaly a city where a little spark in the right place (just so...) will make a big great bonfire...

So as a conclusion, I'll say that spies are much too good (even newly created spies generally have a 93-100 % chance of success) and other agents much too bad (you rarely get over the 45-50 %)

I usually have no problem getting headquarters for assasins, priests and merchants.

Just make one of your cities dedicated to producing assasins, one for priests and one for merchants. Remember using a city by the sea for merchants. And keep producing until reaching the agent-cap for each. Eventually you'll get the HQ's.

Assasins bad in vanilla?? I like them. They may not be 100 percent good, but often a HQ-trained assasin with a few captains in the belt is enough to start taking out generals and alike.

And being able to produce bishops instead of priests makes own you the cardinal-thing in Rome.

And Merchants? Well, the time they take to move to valuable resources and their stopping every time they encounter other units or are being stepped on by other units isn't really worth it.

rgds

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Originally Posted by phunkbot

... (which is about to double as soon as i find how the heck to i get to bloody timboktu, my ships dont seem to want to go all the way down the cost of africa)

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They won't. You have to walk the merchants down from north African landings. Tedious, but good things come to those who wait.

Weird the way peoples perceptions can differ, I suppose thats the sign of a good strategy game. So, many different ways to play. Im currently earning over 1,500 florins from 2 merchants near Constantinople and would hardly call them a waste of time. Whereas, tying up a city producing useless assassins, in the hope of being able to buy a building that gives me the chance to produce slightly less useless assassins seems a total waste of time. Likewise, investing a fortune and one whole city to dominating the Papal College when the payment of the income from 1 x 8* merchant in tribute will keep your Pop-O-Meter rating at 10/10 seems a bit of overkill.

Also, don't underestimate how gratifying it is to take over other merchants. I have an Ueber-merchant that I will build a statue for after his death.

i dont really mean "bad", but it doesnt seem all that sensible to have mr. Fraunce the Killer who had been pwning european royaly for 15 years or so loose all his skill when missing on one hit...

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Originally Posted by Matty

They won't. You have to walk the merchants down from north African landings. Tedious, but good things come to those who wait.

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hey thanks, you're a lifesaver : )

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Originally Posted by phunkbot

i dont really mean "bad", but it doesnt seem all that sensible to have mr. Fraunce the Killer who had been pwning european royaly for 15 years or so loose all his skill when missing on one hit...

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Ah, the infamous anti-trait bug. The bane of many an assassin/diplomat/spy/merchant/princess.

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Originally Posted by phunkbot

i dont really mean "bad", but it doesnt seem all that sensible to have mr. Fraunce the Killer who had been pwning european royaly for 15 years or so loose all his skill when missing on one hit...

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[hint]save - reload[/hint]

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Originally Posted by SirMoric

I usually have no problem getting headquarters for assasins, priests and merchants.

Just make one of your cities dedicated to producing assasins, one for priests and one for merchants. Remember using a city by the sea for merchants. And keep producing until reaching the agent-cap for each. Eventually you'll get the HQ's.

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I do precisely this exact thing. Generally I try to make my capital city my "Cardinal Factory", as it is generally the largest city and will get to Cathedral or Huge Cathedral stage first.

I'm one of those odd people who get really excited when Guild notices show up...:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Goofball

[hint]save - reload[/hint]

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duh, see me sig :laugh4: