The Pope - Does he tactically ex-communicate?

Hi guys,
A while ago, in a French campaign, as in most of my campaigns it ended in a civil war and utter-defeat with a treasury in minus figures, in XL, I noticed something rather strange. I had attacked the pathetically poor Geonese as a tactical way of forcing the influential pope to warn me so that I would be free to remove the English in peace. The Pope, rather than warning me for my aggressive nature, cancelled his alliance with the Geonese. Two turns later they were ex-communicated and the following turn the Pope declared war on them, invaded their lands, wiped them out and the following turn started tearing chunks out of the, excommunicated for their attacks on me, the Holy Roman Empire. I had never seen anything so strange in any campaign before, although you can excuse me for this, I have sadly being playing for just over a month, so I was amazed when I saw these events occur. Has anybody else had a ferocious pope who ex-communicates and then uses it to attack and do any experts understand what may have caused this peculiar action by the "Holy" Father. All help/advise appreciated, thanks!

The pope is usually non-expansive, but when he gets a wild hair he can end up with most of Europe. Tactical ex-communication is just one way he gets things taken care of. He will also call crusades down on friends and foes for his own reasons.

mfberg

@Omanes: I would say that's somewhat unusual, but not without precedent. The bigger faction generally receives the warning, yes, but not always. And as mfberg pointed out, the Pope does occasionally become aggressive. Your "war" with the Genoans may have simply been the casus belli His Holiness was looking for to expand his territory. It happens to me only rarely, but it does happen.

That was wierd. How long did you leave your troops in ex-Genoese territory?

Normally, you only get the Papal warning *after* you've fought the battle, conquered the province and got your opponent under siege.

The "withdraw your forces within 2 years" bit is somewhat flexible in the interpretation department: - If you win the siege assault battle (in year 1, or year 2) then, technically, the province is now your territory and you have complied with his order.

If, instead, you trigger the war by placing your army piece on Genoese land but, at the 3D battle screen, you abort the attack, the state of war with Genoa will persist but you are not on their land, so you do not get the Papal warning at all.

The reason it was the Genoese who got excommunicated was because the Pope attacked them. Making war with the Papacy means immediate excom (no warning stage) and this happens even if it's him who starts it!

Hi,

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

That was wierd. How long did you leave your troops in ex-Genoese territory?

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It was seeming only a couple of turns, at most it may have been three.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

Normally, you only get the Papal warning *after* you've fought the battle, conquered the province and got your opponent under siege.

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Hmm, yes perhaps that could have effected it. The Geonese didn't decide to fight the battle, they instead withdrew to their only other feeble province. Their military might, a unit of peasants, was quite humble compared to my army of Men-at-Arms so it was quite easy to draw them out.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

The reason it was the Genoese who got excommunicated was because the Pope attacked them. Making war with the Papacy means immediate excom (no warning stage) and this happens even if it's him who starts it!

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Hmm, I'm quite sure that the excommunication occurred first. I had a Diplomatic guy (my feeble mind cannot remember their in-game names right now) in their only province trying to bribe their only decent force. I am pretty sure that the ex-communication came first, I'm not sure why he did it - my spying missions showed no sign of aggressive action on their side, followed by the attack a few turns later, yet I may be wrong in that regard - it was quite a time ago so I may have forgotten exactly how it happened.

BTW, thanks for your help!

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

The reason it was the Genoese who got excommunicated was because the Pope attacked them. Making war with the Papacy means immediate excom (no warning stage) and this happens even if it's him who starts it!

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I have to disagree - the Pope only excommunicates if he is attacked, even if it is a sally out of a fortification. However, I have been attacked by him many times, and unless I retaliated in some way, I have never been excommunicated - he would not allow me to crusade, but ne excommunication. I am 100% sure about this. What could have happened is that the Genoese might have attacked a Papal ship somewhere, and this is what got them excommunicated, even if they did not attack the Pope by land.

Its been rare, but I've seen the Pope do such things. Once, as Hungary, the holy father attacked venice. Not expecting the manuever, I withdrew to the keep. The next turn, I took Venice back, only to be warned by the pope to stop agression against him. Two turns later, he invades Venice again. This time, he's repulsed. What do I get for defending myself? A big, juicy, double order of excommunication! Now that's really frustrating.

The ai saw you as a stronger ally so it kept its alliance with you than declared war on the weak Geonese.

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Originally Posted by greaterkhaan

Its been rare, but I've seen the Pope do such things. Once, as Hungary, the holy father attacked venice. Not expecting the manuever, I withdrew to the keep. The next turn, I took Venice back, only to be warned by the pope to stop agression against him. Two turns later, he invades Venice again. This time, he's repulsed. What do I get for defending myself? A big, juicy, double order of excommunication! Now that's really frustrating.

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You were excommunicated for taking Venice back, i.e. attacking him. I do not think he ever gives out warnings, he usually excommunicates immediately if he is the object of aggression.

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

You were excommunicated for taking Venice back, i.e. attacking him. I do not think he ever gives out warnings, he usually excommunicates immediately if he is the object of aggression.

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I realize that, but its still incredibly frustrating.

I've had an aggressive Pope in my game as HRE. I'd taken the Italian provinces and had managed to get the pope as an ally, which lasted for about 15 years iirc.

The pope then died, and the new pope attacked within a few years. Maybe he was a more expansionist pope? Anyway, his expansion lastede all of a couple of turns before I turned him into mulch for the papal vege patch (gardening is always a good way to deal with excommunication). :smash:

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Originally Posted by Kavhan Isbul

I have to disagree - the Pope only excommunicates if he is attacked, even if it is a sally out of a fortification. However, I have been attacked by him many times, and unless I retaliated in some way, I have never been excommunicated - he would not allow me to crusade, but ne excommunication. I am 100% sure about this. What could have happened is that the Genoese might have attacked a Papal ship somewhere, and this is what got them excommunicated, even if they did not attack the Pope by land.

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I'm with you on this one (Vanilla and VI at any rate). As Spain I fought a long and bitter campaign against the Pope but was not excommunicated as he was clearly the aggressor. If I ever attacked, however - even to regain a province under siege - out came bell, book, candle and Syrian assassin (the last of which, in game terms, proved the more effective measure).

The Pope is a convenient thing to launch into sprees playing Grand Achievements. He eats up conçuest points which would otherwise go to other powers. As long as you don´t border him, he might be useful. Consider invading Papal Naples by sea and pushing him up, just rejecting his attacks. Maybe he will tackle with dangerous enemies, such as the HRE, which can´t be killed by assasination, and if it becomes too strong, you will need to exterminate to the last province.

From my experience I think that with the Pope you should either not have a border with him, or have a common border with him but be able to squish him if necessary in a couple of turns. In this case you need to have ample troops on his border/s. You can take him out quite easily and quickly if you've got the Italian provinces and enough troops.

And then you can hold his provinces for the income for a while, then sell off every improvement, pull out, allow rebels to appear and then let the pope get angry with the rebels when the new one returns. Works quite nicely. And if the pope returns with not many troops, you're sitting pretty.

Just linking to the golden horde thread re numbers of troops at appearance, I wonder if the number of papacy troops that re-emerge is reliant on the number of troops in the provinces where it happens. If so, make sense to pull out and let rebels (with smaller troop numbers) take over......:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by General Dazza

Just linking to the golden horde thread re numbers of troops at appearance, I wonder if the number of papacy troops that re-emerge is reliant on the number of troops in the provinces where it happens. If so, make sense to pull out and let rebels (with smaller troop numbers) take over......:inquisitive:

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As a matter of fact, the strength of the Papal re-emergence army does appear to be dependent on the size of the defending garrison. So if you want to fight a smaller Papal army, then yes reducing the size of your garrison will help. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Martok

As a matter of fact, the strength of the Papal re-emergence army does appear to be dependent on the size of the defending garrison. So if you want to fight a smaller Papal army, then yes reducing the size of your garrison will help. :yes:

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Then the scorched earth policy seems to be the way to go, both financially and strategically. Questions is: is there a set number of turns before the Pope re-emerges? I don't expect it has anything to do with loyalty, and from what I've seen it hasn't anything to do with troop size in its provinces.

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Originally Posted by General Dazza

Then the scorched earth policy seems to be the way to go, both financially and strategically. Questions is: is there a set number of turns before the Pope re-emerges? I don't expect it has anything to do with loyalty, and from what I've seen it hasn't anything to do with troop size in its provinces.

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I always thought there was a set number of turns that the pope stays away if the loyalty is above 120%, after about 10 turns he seems to come back no matter what.

I have never taken him out myself, mainly because since I (for the most part) play non-catholic games, and find more convenient to have a crippled pope than a dead one that will reemerge in full strenght. Mainly because I saw one papal resurrection that was a bit worrying: The Italians sçuikked him, and he came back in the middle of an Italian Civil War. He resurged with huge armies from Sicily to Venice. Maybe it was due to the civil war (AKA: those provinces were regarded as "rebel"), but it gives me nightmares the idea of the pope carving out a huge chunk of my territories without prior warning.

Does anyone know if this reemergence is limited to former Papal provinces that either are rebel or are rebellion prone to begin with? Or will the pope reappear in ALL his former provinces every single time, thus making it a must keeping him alive just to save the lands he formerly owned?

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

I have never taken him out myself, mainly because since I (for the most part) play non-catholic games, and find more convenient to have a crippled pope than a dead one that will reemerge in full strenght. Mainly because I saw one papal resurrection that was a bit worrying: The Italians sçuikked him, and he came back in the middle of an Italian Civil War. He resurged with huge armies from Sicily to Venice. Maybe it was due to the civil war (AKA: those provinces were regarded as "rebel"), but it gives me nightmares the idea of the pope carving out a huge chunk of my territories without prior warning.

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Yes, if you leave him alone he continues training multiple units of ballistas and then launches a 'daring' invasion of Greece, as he did in my last Turks campaign. The papacy never get very dangerous as a faction unless they're wiped out and reappear.

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Does anyone know if this reemergence is limited to former Papal provinces that either are rebel or are rebellion prone to begin with? Or will the pope reappear in ALL his former provinces every single time, thus making it a must keeping him alive just to save the lands he formerly owned?

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Same as any other reappearance. Any former provinces in which they had good loyalty are possible sites for a reappearance.

According to just about everyone, the pope gives one warning, correct? I believe this is assumption is wrong. dead wrong. I was playing the HRE (vanilla/MTW/VI) and contolled italy and denmark. On both occasians I recieved the warning as normal when attacking. He eventually excommed the french, so being a good christian, I attacked france. He promptly dies. IN that same year I get a warning to stop attacking the french. The sicilians then invade venice. Thinking that they were warned, I took the province back, AND WAS WARNED AGAIN BY THE POPE! I am then promptly excommunicated , EVEN AFTER ENDING THE SEIGE.:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

I have never taken him out myself, mainly because since I (for the most part) play non-catholic games, and find more convenient to have a crippled pope than a dead one that will reemerge in full strenght. Mainly because I saw one papal resurrection that was a bit worrying: The Italians sçuikked him, and he came back in the middle of an Italian Civil War. He resurged with huge armies from Sicily to Venice. Maybe it was due to the civil war (AKA: those provinces were regarded as "rebel"), but it gives me nightmares the idea of the pope carving out a huge chunk of my territories without prior warning.

Does anyone know if this reemergence is limited to former Papal provinces that either are rebel or are rebellion prone to begin with? Or will the pope reappear in ALL his former provinces every single time, thus making it a must keeping him alive just to save the lands he formerly owned?

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Hi Unknown,
The Pope re-emerged twice in my current game. One time with large numbers, and one time with just 2000 in total. The former time was when I tried to hold his lands and had large numbers there myself. The latter was when I had sold everything and left. Rebels appeared in smaller numbers and the Pope's re-emergence was similarly small. Also, he didn't reappear in all provinces, just a couple.

I think Martok is right that the Pope's re-emergence is linked to troop numbers within the province.

YLAC - that's weird. Haven't seen that sort of thing yet. So far I've found that if you're warned to lay off one faction, you're pretty free to go to town on others.

The Pope is easy to beat down. Just take out the general and all those zero valor troops rout easy.

That should work. Maybe keeping a strong force of heavy cavalry backed by some artillery/arbalesters (to take out the Pope) and then massacre the incoming reinforcements? Just projectiles can work, but when they run out, even if you have a multipurpose unit like treb archers, you´ll still win, but suffer massive casualties if the land is not perfect.

It might be that when warned by the pope, if you are fighting christians two turns after the first warning, you're excommunicated? I had it work "normally" for me allways, but I tend to fight one christian at a time! :beam:

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

It might be that when warned by the pope, if you are fighting christians two turns after the first warning, you're excommunicated? I had it work "normally" for me allways, but I tend to fight one christian at a time! :beam:

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The Pope doesn't care if you wage war against Orthodox factions (Byz, Russians/Novgorod). If he warns you to stop warring with a Catholic faction, however, and you refuse to comply within 2 years, then yes you'll be excommunicated.

I think he refuses crusades against a faction, sometimes, however.

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

Does anyone know if this reemergence is limited to former Papal provinces that either are rebel or are rebellion prone to begin with? Or will the pope reappear in ALL his former provinces every single time, thus making it a must keeping him alive just to save the lands he formerly owned?

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When I played as HRE I had destroyed Pope and let empty the Papal states but not Rome. The Pope reemerged only in Rome and I withdrew from (Pope remain neutral to me), but not reemerged or attacked papal states even if empty (and ruin) and without governor. I presume Pope reemerge only in Rome.

Welcome, cosminus, to the .org :bow:

The Pope can reappear in any of his former provinces, though a reappearing faction usually only turns up in one province, any nearby rebellions in progress may choose to join them. Also if any of their former provinces are rebel at that time, then they will probably rejoin their faction. I have seen the Papacy reappear in the Papal States, and not Rome, many times.

Somehow the AI keeps track of a province that rebels away from it's faction by civil war or by the faction being wiped out. Those rebels in that province will remember which faction they belonged to and return to it.

Welcome to the Org, cosminus! ~:wave:

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Originally Posted by Cambyses II

The Pope can reappear in any of his former provinces, though a reappearing faction usually only turns up in one province, any nearby rebellions in progress may choose to join them. Also if any of their former provinces are rebel at that time, then they will probably rejoin their faction. I have seen the Papacy reappear in the Papal States, and not Rome, many times.

Somehow the AI keeps track of a province that rebels away from it's faction by civil war or by the faction being wiped out. Those rebels in that province will remember which faction they belonged to and return to it.

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Yep, that's been my experience as well. Also, given that a re-emerging faction is more likely to reappear in rebel provinces (although admittedly not always), I tend to make a habit of grabbing a dead faction's good provinces but leave alone the crappy/mediocre ones.

This strategy allows me to pick up some decent lands, while at the same time reducing the possibility of the faction reappearing in my territory later on. (I'm particularly fond of doing this to the Almos and leaving them stuck in Cyrenacia. ~;))

As far as I know, the Papal reemergance is similar to any other faction reemergance, with one caveat. Usually, a province has to have loyalty issues to allow for a faction reemergance. I don't think the Papacy requires that, they can spring up in provinces with pretty solid loyalty. He does seem to favor provinces with fewer troops (smart cookie, that Pope), so pick one province you don't really want and pull out your troops. Let it rebel and let the bandits have it, and in 2 or 3 years, you'll be crusading happily again.

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Originally Posted by Martok

The Pope doesn't care if you wage war against Orthodox factions (Byz, Russians/Novgorod). If he warns you to stop warring with a Catholic faction, however, and you refuse to comply within 2 years, then yes you'll be excommunicated.

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Sooo if you're warned as the french because you're attacking the Italians, stop attack the Italians immediately but start an attack on another christian faction, you'll be excommunicated "without warning" related to your new enemy?

I think not, as in fact I was allowed to wipe out the Italians after leaving the French mostly alone in my HRE game

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Originally Posted by The Unknown Guy

I think not, as in fact I was allowed to wipe out the Italians after leaving the French mostly alone in my HRE game

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Well, I now recall a strategy I read a while ago in the org... You attack someone and get warned, you obey the warning and are now free to wipe out someone else. There must be some timing, there, though....

Were the Italians excommunicated?

No. Both France and Italy attacked simultaneously.The HRE is fair game for any would-be attacker.

In fact, a latter combined Franco-Hungarian attack has driven me to holding just northern Germany, Scandinavia, Finland, and Burgundy.

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Sooo if you're warned as the french because you're attacking the Italians, stop attack the Italians immediately but start an attack on another christian faction, you'll be excommunicated "without warning" related to your new enemy?

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Well, I now recall a strategy I read a while ago in the org... You attack someone and get warned, you obey the warning and are now free to wipe out someone else. There must be some timing, there, though....

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Factions can only have only have one Papal warning at a time. So if you attack one Catholic faction and receive a warning from the Pope to leave that faction alone, you are then free (for the next ten years) to attack any other Catholic faction you wish without being excommunicated. :yes:

Players sometimes exploit this game mechanic by attacking a faction they have no interest in. That way when the Pope warns you to stop attacking that faction, you can then go to war with the Catholic faction you *actually* wanted to attack all along. ~;)

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Originally Posted by Martok

Factions can only have only have one Papal warning at a time. So if you attack one Catholic faction and receive a warning from the Pope to leave that faction alone, you are then free (for the next ten years) to attack any other Catholic faction you wish without being excommunicated. :yes:

Players sometimes exploit this game mechanic by attacking a faction they have no interest in. That way when the Pope warns you to stop attacking that faction, you can then go to war with the Catholic faction you *actually* wanted to attack all along. ~;)

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Hehehe.... I'll think about using it, though I would consider this as "cheating"... What I like is how excommunication disappears, when your king dies, or so. You can always start a war with an old king, if the excomm costs you too much in rebellions, juste send your king die fr his deeds!

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

Hehehe.... I'll think about using it, though I would consider this as "cheating"...

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All things being equal, I would agree. However, it's sometimes the only way to get back at a faction that attacked you without being threatened with excommunication. (Anyone who's had their ships sunk by the Sicilians knows what I'm talking about. ~D)

If the Pope had been programmed to warn off *all* aggressors, I would never employ this tactic. Since he only punishes the larger faction in any dispute, however, I find this to be an acceptable workaround of the problem. (Besides, if I want to deliberately risk a two-front war, then that's my choice. ~;)) I know a lot of people don't agree with me on this -- indeed, I probably hold the minority opinion on this issue -- but I find that otherwise, the Pope is simply too frustrating to deal with if I don't utilize this particular exploit.

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Originally Posted by Caerfanan

What I like is how excommunication disappears, when your king dies, or so. You can always start a war with an old king, if the excomm costs you too much in rebellions, juste send your king die fr his deeds!

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Yep, you gotta love being able to do that. :thumbsup:

I must look at this rather differently to others, as I enjoy the challenge of being excommunicated. Once my faction has given the official two fingers to the Papacy I usually proceed to smash those annoying neighbours that have been giving me grief. Then el Papa will get slightly miffed and demand that his cronies crusade against me, and if that happens it's a bonus, as I'll do everything in my power to ensure the enemy crusades fail. When that happens it's civil war for them, and I am there to take full advantage. :yes:

The Pope will forever bow down to my Pagan Lithuanian cavalry and warriors, muahahaha!:laugh4: I don't have to worry about that glorified bishop at the moment, luckily. :2thumbsup:

When you're playing as the HRE or a large faction with small enemies, it won't matter too much if you get excommed anyway. They can attack you as fair game anyway, so where's the point?

If you're playing HRE, wipe out the little squirts like the Bohemians (XL) one by one by one, excom or no excom.:skull: :skull: :skull:

Yours,


Vytautas LT

In VI/PM do the same to anyone who goes at war with you. Be it Italians, french, or anything. Because even if you win peace, sooner or later someone else will attack you, and they will lash out again. Now I have a campaign hanging around where I hold the north, and bits and pieces of the south, to a rampaging franco-hungarian force.