Christianity (esp. the Bible) in Saudi Arabia

First off, I do not want this thread to be about discussing how evil the Saudi's are in terms of religious toleration.

I am looking for information. :help:

I work in the oilfield as an engineer for a oilfield service company, and I have been transferred over there. I am going in a few weeks and I want to know from anyone with experience what can I expect as an American Christian in terms of how I may be treated, by the Saudis' and especially their religious police. I know to keep my mouth shut (which may be surprising given how I speak back here).

The main thing is can I take my Bible? I do not think so, but I cannot find any 'official' materials saying yes or no.

Thanks to all who can help.

Azi

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Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

First off, I do not want this thread to be about discussing how evil the Saudi's are in terms of religious toleration.

I am looking for information. :help:

I work in the oilfield as an engineer for a oilfield service company, and I have been transferred over there. I am going in a few weeks and I want to know from anyone with experience what can I expect as an American Christian in terms of how I may be treated, by the Saudis' and especially their religious police. I know to keep my mouth shut (which may be surprising given how I speak back here).

The main thing is can I take my Bible? I do not think so, but I cannot find any 'official' materials saying yes or no.

Thanks to all who can help.

Azi

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From what I've read, the Saudis are usually relatively tolerant towards westerners working inside their country. I believe if you mind your own business, it is either alright or they will look the other way. This is of course speculation and I'm not really sure.

Dude, you're tripping. Of course you can bring your Bible. You can bring anything you daggone want to, though maybe hold off on the porn.

Basically, as long as you do not attempt to prosletize, you can do no wrong. Not that you'll get much chance to-- they will have an isolated compound prepared for you, which you will only leave with an approved escort, and then only to approved locations. You will be monitored during your stay, but not harrassed.

I am not so sure about that... It may even be risky, the best thing to do is check with the State Department...maybe they have a Q&A page on SA some place... better safe than sorry.

I'd recommend more in-depth research than this forum. I was of the mind they do not allow Bibles in the country. I don't know much about it, besides knowing some people who work in the oil industry.

CR

Saudi law requires that people be raised in Islamic tradition and that cabinet members be muslims, but that's for citizens. Foreigners could get in trouble for bringing a bible, but it's on a case-by-case basis. A worn personal book is certainly better than a stack of shiny new bibles. Officially you're allowed to practice your religion in private.

The real trouble for westerners is alcohol and drugs. A bottle of booze could bring you a lot of grief, not the least of which is losing your job for getting in trouble with the local law. Drug smuggling might result in capital punishment.

AFAIK It is fine... but as Spetulhu has stated don't bring any Drugs (which May Include Nicotine?) and Alcohol. But Islamic Law isn't too difficult too understand, its more common sense, and appreciation of Culture.

No, I believe only one country has banned tobacco entirely, and it's not Saudi Arabia. The country's name escapes me at the moment though...

Water pipes are common in arabic culture, I do not know if they have them in saudi arabia, but I would think so.

Seriously dude, even if they don't like the Bible, what's the worst they're going to do? The most they can do, if it is obvious you're not trying to convert Muslims, is take it away. You're being sent there on official business. You're being sent there by your employer-- so maybe you should ask them these questions. I'm sure they have everything under control.

You can bring your Bible, you just can't share it. The DOD had a infortion page that dealt with whats allowed and whats banned. i can't remember the address though.

Honestly man, the Bible's for personal use only :hippie: .

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Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

I am looking for information. :help:

I work in the oilfield as an engineer for a oilfield service company

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Teh Rabbit is right. You might want to check elsewhere for sources. Try to google 'expatriates saudi arabia' or something. The American embassy in SA or the SA embassy in America. If you are working through a large oil company, try them.
I'm sure there is a well-organised American expatriate community in SA. Find them, get the info you need from them.

You need to prepare yourself, seriously. This is not game forum stuff. Last month, three Frenchmen got themselves killed in Saudi Arabia, before the eyes of their wives. Not to scare you or anything, but two of them were...expatriate engineers for a oilfield service company.

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Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

First off, I do not want this thread to be about discussing how evil the Saudi's are in terms of religious toleration.

I am looking for information. :help:

I work in the oilfield as an engineer for a oilfield service company, and I have been transferred over there. I am going in a few weeks and I want to know from anyone with experience what can I expect as an American Christian in terms of how I may be treated, by the Saudis' and especially their religious police. I know to keep my mouth shut (which may be surprising given how I speak back here).

The main thing is can I take my Bible? I do not think so, but I cannot find any 'official' materials saying yes or no.

Thanks to all who can help.

Azi

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I lived in Saudi Arabia for about 9 years.

DO NOT BRING YOUR BIBLE WITH YOU.

Clearing Saudi customs at the airport is always an adventure in unpredicatability. Sometimes they confiscate "this," sometimes they put you in a room and question you and hassle you about "that," but usually never the same thing twice. Things I can remember having been confiscated over the years I lived there:

1) My mother's new sewing machine
2) Family home movies (no DevDave, not those kind of movies)
3) Shoes
4) Cassette tapes
5) Schoolbooks

The number one rule when entering Saudi Arabia is the same as when showing up for boot camp: Be the grey man.

Do not carry, wear, or do anything that might draw even the slightest bit of attention to yourself.

I submit to you that carrying your Bible into the Kingdom that considers itself to be the Holy Defenders of Mecca and Medina makes you slightly less grey.

Probably nothing would happen, but you may get a customs officer who is in a bad mood and decides to put you in a room and question you for an hour or two about why you are bringing "missionary" materials into KSA.

Leave it at home, dude.

Also, learn to walk without rythm.

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Originally Posted by Fenring

Also, learn to walk without rythm.

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I think Azi is trying to avoid the Amtal ritual on himself.

Azi, best of luck! I'd recommend both do some external searching AND listen to the guys in this thread who've lived there before!

:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by Goofball

I lived in Saudi Arabia for about 9 years.

DO NOT BRING YOUR BIBLE WITH YOU.

Clearing Saudi customs at the airport is always an adventure in unpredicatability. Sometimes they confiscate "this," sometimes they put you in a room and question you and hassle you about "that," but usually never the same thing twice. Things I can remember having been confiscated over the years I lived there:

...

Leave it at home, dude.

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Bingo! Thanks so much Goofball ~:cheers: I've done more research, but I was hoping to find someone with this kind of experience here.

I do know that I'm going to have someone at the airport in Bahrain to meet me, who is then going to drive me from there to my facility. I don't know what to expect crossing the border, but I'm sure my driver will know!

I know not to take any alcohol (no problem), drugs (no problem), pork products (:furious3: ), and images of women (:book:) with me.

Thanks guys.

Azi

I would listen to Goofball, but then end up bringing one because I doubt they sell them in Saudi Arabia and I would not like to live without one. Maybe see if you can get an old one, if that will help.
Christians are of course, people of the book to Muslims, although that can be interpreted in many different ways.

What about an electronic bible on a laptop? Would they check the laptop?:eyebrows: :inquisitive:

What's wrong with you, man? How could you, an American, post something like that here? We Americans have striven to maintain a reputation in the backroom as un-cultured, intolerant buffoons when it comes to people who are different than us.

My advice: Take a Bible. A BIG Bible. Then, if some wiseass Saudi customs inspector gives you any grief, whack him over the head with it.

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Originally Posted by IrishArmenian

I would listen to Goofball,

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Yeah, so would I. Because really, I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I still got the gist of it right, though.

Also, note that Bahrain is party central for the Saudis, so the checks coming from there may (speculation) be pretty strict. In general, though, land crossings are often more lenient than airports.

@gs: Taking the holy book of a religion provided explicit protection in the Qur'aan, to a country which borders on the lands where many of the oldest churches in Christianity still stand, and is supposedly governed by a religion which presumes to respect the reverences of other monotheistic faiths, is not un-cultured. The issue is that Wahhabism is a deviant sect. Not that we would want the conversation to drift in that direction.

Er? Isn't Jesus the 38th (or is it 39th?) prophet? Take the old testiment, parts of the new one is considered propaganda, but I have yet to hear a true Moslem give their teachings up.

However, the Gospels are Ok as they are a part of Islam. So tear out the Catholic approved parts abd adhere to the Jesus parts and you will be fine.

Above all, be appreciative that they have more incommon with you than most Americans - since the latest "polls" showed that ..... Americans in general like the idea of a GOD, but ...

It is all in the "but", the Islamists don't have the "but" .... they all believe in God ... they just call him Allah.

Get it? Or, not. :juggle2:

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Originally Posted by Fenring

Also, learn to walk without rythm.

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:laugh4:

More seriously, definitely talk with your employers about this; make sure that they tell you what you can take, stick to it, and be sure that you can't be held accountable if what they told you was incorrect.

I can't offer personal experience, but I do know that airlines advise (tell?) their cabin staff to not take bibles or wear crucifixes if they are visiting Saudi, and there have been cases in the news of people who ignored that advice (or got caught out by an unexpected stopover) and it wasn't what you'd wish on anyone. I'd say leave it at home, grit your teeth, and maybe memorise whatever passages may give you comfort in an alien land.

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

Seriously dude, even if they don't like the Bible, what's the worst they're going to do? The most they can do, if it is obvious you're not trying to convert Muslims, is take it away. You're being sent there on official business. You're being sent there by your employer-- so maybe you should ask them these questions. I'm sure they have everything under control.

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Errr....it's Saudi Arabia, they have a great record of trialling foreigners for Islam related stuff (though the last case I can think of involved a relationship).

You can bring a bible,i went there with an italian jew with me and its all fine though he wasn't terribly religious to begin with.

Saudia is pretty much the strictest country in the middle east, so even talking about your religion might get you in trouble. Most of the airport customs are massive :furious3: , keep in mind i'm arab and muslim, and i've gotten as much grief as any other joe that tries to visit the country.

So tread lightly, and don't get too involved with the locals.

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You can bring a bible,i went there with an italian jew with me and its all fine though he wasn't terribly religious to begin with.

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Well there was this thing..............

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../saudiban.html
OK you can understand the Israeli passport thing or Israeli stamps on a passport , it doesn't recognise that the country exists so the passport must be invalid , just like other countries will refuse you entry if you have a Northern Cyprus stamp in your passport ....... but that last line:thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Well there was this thing..............

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/.../saudiban.html
OK you can understand the Israeli passport thing or Israeli stamps on a passport , it doesn't recognise that the country exists so the passport must be invalid , just like other countries will refuse you entry if you have a Northern Cyprus stamp in your passport ....... but that last line:thumbsdown:

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The article does claim the saudis removed the last line, it could be true, but the guy with me had an italian passport, and never visited israel.

Passports don't state whether one is Jewish or not. (Well most I presume)

So does this mean that if somebody is discovered to be Jewish when in SA he is an illegal alien? Or worse than that?
What standard of 'Jewishness' does SA use, who is a Jew?


Edit: yo Eriksson, I totally dig your l33t avatar! :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Goofball

2) Family home movies (no DevDave, not those kind of movies)

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Its a documentary on sheep breeding, I swear!!!:laugh4:

Don't bring booze, even if it's for "medicinal purposes". An old highschool friend learned this the hard way working on a construction project in the Magic Kingdom. Took his family a year, and much $$$ to get him out of jail.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

DO NOT BRING YOUR BIBLE WITH YOU.

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Good old tolerant Islam...

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Good old tolerant Islam...

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Dave don't you mean Wahhabis a relatively new intolerant form of Islam . Though it could be viewed that Hanbali is the old intolerant flavour you mean ....hmmmmm...Islam , many flavours , too many for some to bother with when a broad brush is more to their taste .:thumbsdown:

Well, I'm going to preface this with stating that I personally have never been to Saudi Arabia. I have been to Turkey, Egypt and Dubai (part of the UAE).

First, as in most countries, there is always the difference between the letter of the law, and how it is practiced.

Second, as far as I understand, in countries where Sharia is practiced (and I believe Saudi Arabia is a claimant to this) it is not a crime for a believer to kill a dhimini (Jew or Christian) or a khafir (anybody else, including secular humanist). I may be wrong on this one in terms of actual practice, but the legal principle itself does not recognize the rights of non-believers with respect to abuse at the hands of believers. I DO know, for a fact, that you cannot bear witness against a muslim in court, so you wouldn't be able to file charges for assault, for example. You'd have to have a muslim coworker file them for you.

Third, there is a world of difference between life on a US military base life off of it. The base would be a secure environment at which the authorities have agreed to make some concessions to local law (no alcohol, no pictures of women, etcetera). Once you step off the base, however, you are at the mercy of the local authorities, including the Mutaween (the Saudi religious police).

Do yourself a big favor. Listen to Goofball. DO NOT bring ANYTHING that identifies you as a Christian. Even with the friendliest of people, STEADFASTLY REFUSE to discuss religion or politics. Unless you are physically within the embassy or a US military base, you must follow their laws. These laws are so elaborate, you cannot hope to memorize them all (for example, as a non-believer, are you still required to observe the Salah? That is, pray to Allah facing the Kaaba 5 times a day? What happens if you don't?)

For God's sake, do not mention Jesus, the bible or anything else having to do with Judaism or Christianity. To some Mutaween, the very name "Jesus" is a violation of Shahadah ("I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allah and I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah").

Most muslims probably won't be so hardcore as the Mutaween, but how can you possibly hope to know?

Keep your head down and if it's not related to work, don't discuss it. That's the first and foremost rule my company offers to us when we're travelling in Islamic countries. (It's the same advice they give us when travelling to China or Singapore for that matter). It's nothing against our hosts. It's just you will have no idea when you're saying or doing something blasphemous, and what the consequences of that blasphemy might be. Keep to your coworkers, and most importantly, do not leave your enclave alone.

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Dave don't you mean Wahhabis a relatively new intolerant form of Islam . Though it could be viewed that Hanbali is the old intolerant flavour you mean ....hmmmmm...Islam , many flavours , too many for some to bother with when a broad brush is more to their taste .:thumbsdown:

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You might want to educate yourself on the life and what Muhammed said and what is written in the Qu'ran. You might be a little shocked at what you'll find. Islam, as it is written in the Qu'ran, is not tolerant. Of course the Bible is not exactly tolerant either, but it does not require to " strike the necks of the nonbelievers wherever you find them". I know that's not suitable for your PC taste but the best evidence of Islams intolerance is its own holy book. Well, I guess I'll wait for my warning points since speeking the truth is not allowed anywhere.:2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

Dave don't you mean Wahhabis a relatively new intolerant form of Islam . Though it could be viewed that Hanbali is the old intolerant flavour you mean ....hmmmmm...Islam , many flavours , too many for some to bother with when a broad brush is more to their taste .:thumbsdown:

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Oh, and this "bible" incident wasn't in Saudi...
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

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Well, I guess I'll wait for my warning points since speeking the truth is not allowed anywhere.

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What truth Dave ? It would appear that your truth is of the testicular variety .
Unless of course you are like the Wahhabis and think that all of the different forms of Islam and all the different interpretations of their books are false and unislamic .

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" strike the necks of the nonbelievers wherever you find them".

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:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: You might want to educate yourself on the life and what Muhammed said and what is written in the Qu'ran.Now then Dave , do you want to play scripture ? could you give the direct quote in context or would you like something similar from the bible , and considering your following post/link would you like some comparable actions by some good old tolerant "christians" ?

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Originally Posted by Tribesman

What truth Dave ? It would appear that your truth is of the testicular variety .
Unless of course you are like the Wahhabis and think that all of the different forms of Islam and all the different interpretations of their books are false and unislamic .

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: You might want to educate yourself on the life and what Muhammed said and what is written in the Qu'ran.Now then Dave , do you want to play scripture ? could you give the direct quote in context or would you like something similar from the bible , and considering your following post/link would you like some comparable actions by some good old tolerant "christians" ?

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I love the "And the Lord said: Cut off their fingertips and behead them" quote from the bible :laugh4:

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I love the "And the Lord said: Cut off their fingertips and behead them" quote from the bible

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Really , I prefer crush the babies skulls on the floor in front of their mothers then kill the mothers without mercy type of thing myself , but hey I suppose its a matter of taste .

I am so glad I'm very unlikely ever to go to Saudi Arabia.

Bad DD! Bad Tribesman! This thread was going great until you two started in! I suppose it was inevitable though.

Anyway, thank you Don ~:mecry:

That is what I figured. I know better than to leave without an escort, but I think this is going to be quite an adventure.

I just hope He doesn't get mad at me for pulling a Peter while I'm there :sweatdrop:

Thanks to everyone for your help though.

Azi :bow:

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Originally Posted by Azi Tohak

I just hope He doesn't get mad at me for pulling a Peter while I'm there :sweatdrop:

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Give some of the money you earn there to charity, that should help. :idea2:

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The importation and use of alcohol, pork products, pornography, religious books and materials (other than those relating to Islam) is forbidden.

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That's from the Australian Department of Foreign Affairs site, so I imagine that they have it right from a technical viewpoint. Not sure how harshly enforced it is though, but have a read for yourself. Link.

I work for a large oil/gas company, I'll see if I can find a few people who've worked in SA and get their opinion tomorrow.

Saudi's have it all wrong.

They just need to tax the importation of non-islamic literature. Maybe with a stamp. Its worked well in the past.

Just remember, man, people are people. You don't learn about other cultures to discover the differences-- you learn about other cultures to find how to get past the differences, because really we're all the same.

Saudi sounds like a pretty crazy place, but keep a positive attitude about it.

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

Just remember, man, people are people. You don't learn about other cultures to discover the differences-- you learn about other cultures to find how to get past the differences, because really we're all the same.

Saudi sounds like a pretty crazy place, but keep a positive attitude about it.

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Quite agreed. In fact once upon a time in a land called America we taught the intricacies of other cultures for this very reason and out of a basic premise of respect for fellow mankind; not to mention the pursuit of knowledge. What happens currently is the preaching of multiculturalism with a predefined juxtaposition of any notion of an common thread of American Culture and evil not to mention anything Christian.

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Originally Posted by Del Arroyo

Saudi sounds like a pretty crazy place, but keep a positive attitude about it.

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Well, Big O is a Saudi, no? A particularly rich one, even.

Since he's not entirely such an exception among the norm, we might as well conclude that the place isn't particularly famous for being, ah, welcoming to Westerners. Even with the oil business. And unless someone is born a martyred saint who goes to places like Saudi Arabia to die for Civil Rights Everywhere, which a business trip working overseas doesn't exactly spell that, he would be better off playing safe than sorry.

Of course, I've never been there, and don't really have much to offer to Azi Tohak's predicament. Except, perhaps, that I believe that a person's faith is truly his own and the absence of the Good Book shouldn't really be able to hamper it.

Arabic culture tip: Don't prop your feet up on anything when you're sitting down. Showing them the soles of your shoes is a supreme insult. You're even supposed to be careful how you set your shoes down to be sure that the soles aren't pointed at Heaven.

If you forget what you're doing, and you commit this faux pas, simply whack the offended party over the head with the aforementioned BIG Bible and offer him a bite of your BLT sandwich.

If you see men holding hands and kissing each other, don't assume that they are open to a relationship with you. Heterosexual men do this in some Arabic cultures (at least in Iraq). Besides, even if they were interested in a relationship with you, they would insist that since you are an infidel you should be the "catcher." How would you feel about wearing a Burka?