I hope Ice's friend and cousins are safe. I hope tempers have subsided somewhat. Shall we try again?
Two things have come up.
1. Why the strange two-hour delay between shots?
2. Why is this sort of thing happening?
To my fellow Europeans I would like to say: it happens frequently in the U.S. for the same reason why Europe has frequent wars and genocides. Cause we're all special, okay?
So let's have a nice thread for a change.
04-16-2007, 22:11
Sasaki Kojiro
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
The one story I heard was that the guy came into the doorm and found his girlfriend with the RA and shot them both, and then game back later and shot all the other people. But the guy in the press conference said he did not believe that the girl in the first shooting was the girlfriend...almost the only info to come from the press conference.
I think it's happening because there are crazy people who do crazy things. Didn't that whiteman guy have a brain tumor and hear voices?
04-16-2007, 22:16
Marshal Murat
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Asian male who shot a professor and tens of students, then goes to his GF's dorm and shoots her and friends.
04-16-2007, 22:24
Csargo
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Some people just snap under the pressure.
04-16-2007, 22:30
Kanamori
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
I would say a cultural influence on crazy people tends to make these things happen more in the US...
Here, people are more prone to think that when they're snapping, they have to go shoot people in some giant blazing flame of glory... violence in general just seems to be more prevalant, talked about, and less taboo; people are easily influenced, which is also probably why it happens less elsewhere...
As to the other question, we'll have to wait and see I suppose... I don't know how reliable any of the details I've heard are, yet.
04-16-2007, 22:32
Adrian II
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
Some people just snap under the pressure.
I found a nice long fact-sheet on school schootings from the Chicago Sun-Times which includes an anaysis done by the Secret Service. It turns out shooters usually don't 'snap' and they don't have a 'history' either that allows for profiling.
If you ask me, Michael Moore was bang on in that movie. Canadians own about as many guns as Americans, yet make far less use of them because their society is different, infinitely more relaxed. There is a Hobbesian aspect to American society that goes a long way toward explaining these occurrences, I think.
04-16-2007, 23:10
Sasaki Kojiro
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
I think Kanamori is on the mark.
What do you think of the campus administrations actions regarding not cancelling school? I think they made the right decision at the time personally.
04-16-2007, 23:17
Ice
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
I hope Ice's friend and cousins are safe. I hope tempers have subsided somewhat. Shall we try again?
Thank you very much, Adrian. That is very much appreciated. My friend is safe, I just talked to him. He's just really shaken up.
I talked to my father and he said he called his cousin and she said her daughters were both safe. Thank God.
04-16-2007, 23:20
Hosakawa Tito
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
The school should have been on lock-down till they could either find the shooter or verify he was gone from the campus. I think they were too complacent, and their lack of vigilance and situational awareness may have cost the lives of those in that class room. Since when is any shooting such a ho-hum business as usual affair?
04-16-2007, 23:21
Del Arroyo
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
It's been my hypothesis for some time that things like this happen because the drastic decay of "community" within the US. If an individual falls by the wayside, they are allowed to stay there. In the land of freedom and individualism, people are allowed to live with no social connections-- even if those connections are the thing they need the most.
But really, who knows? This latest :daisy: will undoubtedly shed some light...
04-16-2007, 23:26
Beirut
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Very sad thing. Such a waste.
I can't understand why the school was not locked down.
04-16-2007, 23:26
rory_20_uk
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Why do these people never invest in silencers? Surely then they could execute far more people.
~:smoking:
04-16-2007, 23:35
Marshal Murat
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Tisk tisk....
The school thought they had caught the killer after his first attack, but then he killed again, and thus the school was locked down.
04-16-2007, 23:36
Sasaki Kojiro
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito
The school should have been on lock-down till they could either find the shooter or verify he was gone from the campus. I think they were too complacent, and their lack of vigilance and situational awareness may have cost the lives of those in that class room. Since when is any shooting such a ho-hum business as usual affair?
Well, it's not like the president has a red button on his desk which magically makes the campus safe. With 30,000 people it's the size of a small city and you can't shut down a small city for every murder. Hindsight is perfect of course, but I don't think there's ever been a killing spree with a 2 hour gap like that. At the time of the killing most of the commuters would be on their way there, and no one checks there email before hand. The first killing was in a dormitory anyway, how would canceling class help? Most campus's don't have the manpower to shut down quickly.
04-16-2007, 23:39
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Why do these people never invest in silencers? Surely then they could execute far more people.
~:smoking:
Don't even joke about that.
04-16-2007, 23:44
edyzmedieval
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Why do these people never invest in silencers? Surely then they could execute far more people.
~:smoking:
Old Rory and his jokes. ~;)
Me and my dad found it shocking. I mean, shoot 3-4, but more than 30? You're kidding. This is totally sick! :thumbsdown: :skull:
04-16-2007, 23:52
rory_20_uk
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
If he's got his right to bear arms, I'm damn well having mine to free speech.
So... what? We all go "terrible", "monstrous", "how could this ever happen??!?" and then basically nothing happens bar possibly a small plaque.
Ban guns on campus? Nah.
Killing 30 people is not much worse than killing 3. After you've got over the shock of murdering one person it becomes far more routine as one's conception of "normal" shifts.
~:smoking:
04-16-2007, 23:54
Kralizec
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
This sucks. My condoleances to the family and friends of the victims, and I hope Ice doesn't need them.
04-16-2007, 23:58
edyzmedieval
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
If he's got his right to bear arms, I'm damn well having mine to free speech.
So... what? We all go "terrible", "monstrous", "how could this ever happen??!?" and then basically nothing happens bar possibly a small plaque.
Ban guns on campus? Nah.
Killing 30 people is not much worse than killing 3. After you've got over the shock of murdering one person it becomes far more routine as one's conception of "normal" shifts.
~:smoking:
I fear to ask, how many people have died on your doctor shift?
04-16-2007, 23:59
GeneralHankerchief
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
If he's got his right to bear arms, I'm damn well having mine to free speech.
Killing 30 people is not much worse than killing 3. After you've got over the shock of murdering one person it becomes far more routine as one's conception of "normal" shifts.
If only 3 people had been killed then I doubt that this would be discussed heavily right now. The reason why it is such a large thing is that it crushes the record for deaths in a school shooting.
The repercussions of this will be much more than just some plaque. The last big school shooting in the US, Columbine, has become so ingrained in our culture that we think nothing of having metal detectors installed in high schools.
04-17-2007, 00:06
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Adrian II:
You finished with an interesting point. The potential impact of a more Hobbesian character (I assume from your post that you are referencing the Hobbesian state of nature and not the social compact in response to it) to our culture on such events would be pretty clear.
Counter Question:
Why do you view my culture as more Hobbesian? Please note, there is not a defensive tone to that question, it's just a straight query. What other cultures are more so or less so and why?
04-17-2007, 00:07
rory_20_uk
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
I know there's no Free Speech here. And it's a better place because of that.
If something positive and long lasting does come out of this then good. I'm fed up with in every walk of like empty platitudes for a few days / weeks then everything returns to how it was before.
~:smoking:
04-17-2007, 00:18
Hosakawa Tito
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Every institution should have a Red Book, an emergencies procedures plan, that covers a wide array of emergency situations, that the administration can use to guide them. The biggest problem in this situation seems to be communicating the emergency to those that need to know. You can bet after all the lawsuits that will ensue, that this lack of preparedness will be addressed. Unfortunately, the first thing that will get fixed is the blame.
Such a terrible, senseless tragedy. And some feel the need to make tasteless jokes and political statements....
04-17-2007, 00:20
Bijo
Re : Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Why do these people never invest in silencers? Surely then they could execute far more people.
~:smoking:
That is logical. Using silencers combined with a good amount of careful stealth.... they could even get away with their murdering if they're good :|
Regarding that shooting PDF:
The PDF article is annoying to read: it doesn't get to the point quickly and repeats things all the time. After reading about two pages I just skimmed through it. It doesn't really provide any solid answers, then again it's said basically they don't have 'em.
Also peculiar is the fact that the Secret Service has been investigating these cases with great interest. Why the heck the SS-- eh, I mean... Secret Service? Is this not something for the p'lice force?
There has been no progress we could say in avoiding these cases from happening, as they continue to happen, and the Secret Service is investigating it thoroughly? Sounds fishy and sucpicious.
But one thing caught my eye often there: those kids who plan shootings tell their peers and these peers don't take any action, nor are all of these kids listened to by elders. Peculiar, and in a certain way expectable.
Kids can be cruel human creatures and who knows what goes on in their minds regarding these killings, and how they all influence the whole shebang.
But my basic thought about this whole thing is this: " Pffff.... humans. *sigh* "
04-17-2007, 00:25
TevashSzat
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
The big controversy over this will be that 2 people were initially killed in a dorm building, but the school didn't stop classes and there was nothing like a lockdown since the killer was supposed to have been off campus. It was only a majority of the killings occurred 2 hours later when the person started shooting in the engineering building.
I don't care if the killer has gotten away, 2 students have died on school property in a dorm housing 900 people, I would at least stop classes for the day which might have prevented the later massacre
04-17-2007, 00:28
Sasaki Kojiro
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
Ban guns on campus? Nah.
Guns are banned on campus.
04-17-2007, 00:31
Kanamori
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Rory, it would be my guess that weapons are banned on all US campuses, or at least almost all of them... I know they are on mine.
04-17-2007, 00:36
Bijo
Re : Virginia Tech shooting
Heh, I just realized the thread title looks a bit "wrong" as do the reply titles: a happy-looking SMILIE in front of 'Virgina Tech shooting'.
04-17-2007, 00:41
Ice
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
Guns are banned on campus.
Not just guns, but knives, mace, tasers, etc. Any type of weapon is banned on campus, atleast here.
04-17-2007, 01:08
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Re : Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rory
Also peculiar is the fact that the Secret Service has been investigating these cases with great interest. Why the heck the SS-- eh, I mean... Secret Service? Is this not something for the p'lice force?
There has been no progress we could say in avoiding these cases from happening, as they continue to happen, and the Secret Service is investigating it thoroughly? Sounds fishy and sucpicious.
The Secret Service, at least the protective detail, spends a lot of time studying whack-job shooters. They are tasked with preventing such killings in the case of our key political executives. They keep working to develop profiles, insights -- anything that will let them learn how they can maybe stop such an attack on their charges.
Incidents like Squeaky Fromme must cost those folks a lot of sleep.
04-17-2007, 01:30
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
A few notes:
GUNS ARE BANNED ON CAMPUS (and on mine, everything down to airsoft guns are too).
As with most college campuses, having a gun on campus will get you expelled.
Slightly over a year ago, a bill in the Virginia legislature that would have let people who have a license to carry a concealed pistol (meaning a fingerprinting and FBI background check at the minimum) carry their weapon on university grounds got shot down. http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658
Virginia Tech had this to say:
Quote:
Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."
Too bad feeling safe doesn't transfer to being safe in reality.
The ninnies who insisted on disarming the students, thinking idiotically that with a stroke of a pen, they magically prevent bad people from carrying guns for nefarious purposes, share some of the blame for setting up this situation.
If they had not disarmed all the victims, this might have gone very differently.
CR
04-17-2007, 01:51
Scurvy
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xdeathfire
The big controversy over this will be that 2 people were initially killed in a dorm building, but the school didn't stop classes and there was nothing like a lockdown since the killer was supposed to have been off campus. It was only a majority of the killings occurred 2 hours later when the person started shooting in the engineering building.
I don't care if the killer has gotten away, 2 students have died on school property in a dorm housing 900 people, I would at least stop classes for the day which might have prevented the later massacre
would it be possible to stop classes that quickly? 900 people are a lot to communicate too, and it seemed at the time as though the incident was over, i can't think of an incident where their have been 2 seperate shootings --> any action tkane like closing the school could also have negative consequecnes, it would cause much uneeded panic, especially as these things tend to get exagerated etc..
basically, it's easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsight...
Quote:
Originally Posted by rory_20_uk
If something positive and long lasting does come out of this then good. I'm fed up with in every walk of like empty platitudes for a few days / weeks then everything returns to how it was before.
:yes: --> sadly it will soon be forgotten...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
GUNS ARE BANNED ON CAMPUS (and on mine, everything down to airsoft guns are too).
As with most college campuses, having a gun on campus will get you expelled.
Is this generally adhered too? (rules are too often broken)
Quote:
If they had not disarmed all the victims, this might have gone very differently.
lets just have 200 people with guns instead of 2, thats really going to solve the problem of shootings....
04-17-2007, 02:03
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Is this generally adhered too? (rules are too often broken)
Yes. Rules were you get kicked out of college (have fun applying to the next one!) are generally listened to.
Quote:
lets just have 200 people with guns instead of 2, thats really going to solve the problem of shootings....
You assume the false logical premise that gun ownership or prevalence increases the level of violence.
Good people do not become crazy psychos when they pick up a gun, picking up a piece of metal doesn't alter the chemicals in their brains and make them lash out.
And yes, having the students at VT armed would have helped - they could have fought back. Instead, the shooter had thousands of unarmed potential targets, and could freely attack them without fear of retaliation.
I was in Norris Hall today when the shootings took place. I thought I'd give you my account in case you wanted more information.
It was just a regular day in class; the door was open and we heard a pop-pop-popping noise. Sounded like some kind of construction but it was getting disruptive so we went to close the door, and one of the girls stepped out in the hallway to see what it was. She saw the gun and ran back inside the room and slammed the door shut and we all got down on the floor.
We heard pretty much continuous shooting for the next minute or so, and I said, "Shouldn't we barricade the door," because we were sitting ducks with no way out inside that room if he opened the door. A couple more people floated the idea that "We need to barricade the door, NOW." But I was too scared to even move, much less move the teacher's desk.
Finally one of the guys in the front of the classroom was brave enough to get up and move the desk in front of the door to prevent outside entry. About twenty seconds later, the shooter rattled the doorknob trying to get in. When he couldn't get in he fired two shots through the door (single solid piece of wood) and left. We heard him go in to 206 (the room across the hall) and shoot the people in that room. If we hadn't put the barricade up when we did, I and all my classmates would be dead.
When the police arrived five minutes later we heard them call for him to surrender his weapon and some more, irregular shots. Another five minutes later the police knocked and yelled "Police!" and we yelled "How do we know?" and when a second voice confirmed that it was in fact police, we opened the door. An officer came in and told us to line up single file, take nothing with us (I grabbed my coat) and run out the door single file while another officer escorted us.
We entered the hallway. Blood, bullet casings, and empty pistol clips were everywhere; this was definitely the most horrifying sight of my entire life. We ran past quickly. A door to the stairwell had been opened and there was a massive trail of blood; we found out later that a class had tried to escape only to find that the monster had chained the doors shut before starting his rampage. They were all killed.
We all ran to a nearby building and stayed there until we could be processed, and that was the end of it. Thank you all for your concerns and prayers, but please mostly pray for those who were seriously injured or hurt today.
Also, let me say that the response from the campus, local, and state police was exemplary. Within five minutes of the first shots, police were gathering outside. In another ten minutes, the threat had been neutralized and the building was secure. My heartfelt gratitude goes out to the brave men and women who kept us safe today.
--Jacob Simmons
junior, Computer Engineering, Virginia Tech
Good God. Sounds like the police response when the second shootings started was good.
Crazed Rabbit
04-17-2007, 02:12
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
Is this generally adhered too? (rules are too often broken)
Having taught for 7 different colleges over the course of 20 years, I can say that the answer is, for the most part, yes.
Numerous small pocket knives/nail clippers are carried and nobody ran around prohibiting people from having decorative letter openers, so the ban wasn't absolute, but I was aware of only one gun on campus (and that was carried unloaded with a trigger lock in place by an off-duty police officer who'd forgotten to put it in her lock-box in the trunk of her car).
Rabbit:
I'm not sure that weapons in the hands of students would have helped (though the ones with the discipline to get the concealed permits are often the most responsible owners). Shooting is one thing, shooting accurately under high-stress situations is another, and all the guns in the world are pretty valueless unless the shooter can hit a target under those conditions.
Of course, my solution would be to make gun ownership and training mandatory, so our USA gun-haters wouldn't like my solution. :devilish:
EDIT: just read your latest post. The quick-thinking chap in the front of the room should have about 20 other sets of parents chipping in for his education for the next year or two til he graduates. Lacking a gun, he did everything right during a crisis.
Okay, yeah, maybe if that one had been armed, the shots going back out through the door might have ended it earlier.
04-17-2007, 02:14
KukriKhan
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Let's all maintain some sense of decorum on behalf of the dead and bereaved.
Today is not the time to dissect pro- and anti-gun arguments. Let's wait a day or two, until more details emerge, and families have had time to bury their dead.
04-17-2007, 02:36
Csargo
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
I found a nice long fact-sheet on school schootings from the Chicago Sun-Times which includes an anaysis done by the Secret Service. It turns out shooters usually don't 'snap' and they don't have a 'history' either that allows for profiling.
If you ask me, Michael Moore was bang on in that movie. Canadians own about as many guns as Americans, yet make far less use of them because their society is different, infinitely more relaxed. There is a Hobbesian aspect to American society that goes a long way toward explaining these occurrences, I think.
:shame: I always have problems expressing my views, which is why I rarely visit this place. I ment that usually something happens which pushes the person to plan something like this. People usually don't just randomly shoot up places for the hell of it there's always a reason behind it whether we find out about it afterwards or they take it to the grave.
Apparently, he just walked in to that classroom, shot 10-15 people, then left. Students barred the doors, which was good, because he tried to get in again, shooting through the door, but couldn't get in.
CR
04-17-2007, 03:11
The Spartan (Returns)
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
God bless them. 20+ wounded i believe?
04-17-2007, 03:23
Gregoshi
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
What a sad day. It was horrible seeing the death count go up during the afternoon. With so many dead, it is hard to believe this was just some Joe Blow who picked up a couple of guns and started shooting. I'm sure tomorrow will reveal who the killer was, but the "why" may take a little longer.
04-17-2007, 03:41
Csargo
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
Indeed, Ichigo.
I don't know if your agreeing with my post or not. :dizzy2: Maybe I'm reading too much into it.
04-17-2007, 03:50
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
I'm agreeing, Ichigo.
Quote:
With so many dead, it is hard to believe this was just some Joe Blow who picked up a couple of guns and started shooting.
That's what I thought, too. Heck, I thought 22 was high.
CR
04-17-2007, 04:06
Sasaki Kojiro
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
I'm agreeing, Ichigo.
That's what I thought, too. Heck, I thought 22 was high.
CR
It sounds like he planned it and knew what he was doing.
I'm doubtful it would have been different if guns had been allowed on campus. Who would carry their gun to class? Guy had body armor anyway.
04-17-2007, 04:31
KukriKhan
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
In keeping with our usual Backroom protocol, as details come in (like body armor, weapon used, etc), please provide links, so our fellow readers know we're not making things up or merely spreading rumors.
We're a smart bunch of fellows here; let's help each other, and our readers, gain some perspective. Covering the coverage, and drilling down to salient issues, is what we do best here. Let's show our stuff.
04-17-2007, 04:39
Crazed Rabbit
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
It sounds like he planned it and knew what he was doing.
I'm doubtful it would have been different if guns had been allowed on campus. Who would carry their gun to class? Guy had body armor anyway.
I know some guys who'd carry guns to class.
Would it had made a difference? I can't say it would've for sure - but it would've been a chance to stop this before so many were killed, even if it was a small chance.
VT stopped permit holders from carrying, supposedly thinking they can somehow prevent stuff like this, but this proves that such a rule won't do crap against people who are going to harm others.
CR
04-17-2007, 04:46
Sasaki Kojiro
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by KukriKhan
In keeping with our usual Backroom protocol, as details come in (like body armor, weapon used, etc), please provide links, so our fellow readers know we're not making things up or merely spreading rumors.
We're a smart bunch of fellows here; let's help each other, and our readers, gain some perspective. Covering the coverage, and drilling down to salient issues, is what we do best here. Let's show our stuff.
Shooter described as "heavily armed and wearing a vest". People say different things about his weapons. Either two 9 mm's, a 9 mm and a .22... or a 9mm and a 22 mm (snicker).
04-17-2007, 05:33
Adrian II
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
@ Ichigo. The Chicago-Sun Times report certainly vindicates your view that shooters are often bullied, tormented types. The fact that their anger and despair build up over a period of time is said to be a good thing, it means that sometimes a proactive policy will filter them out.
@ Seamus Your point about Hobbes is noted. I have an unpredictable schedule today and I'm off to catch a train right now, but I will get back to you. :bow:
04-17-2007, 05:48
Fragony
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanamori
I would say a cultural influence on crazy people tends to make these things happen more in the US...
Maybe things are a bit simpler then that, USA has somewhat more space where these things may occur, I mean it's bigger then all countries in Europe combined. How long has it been since Columbine? Let's not act as if there is a trend of some sort.
04-17-2007, 05:52
Csargo
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
@ Ichigo. The Chicago-Sun Times report certainly vindicates your view that shooters are often bullied, tormented types. The fact that their anger and despair build up over a period of time is said to be a good thing, it means that sometimes a proactive policy will filter them out.
@ Seamus Your point about Hobbes is noted. I have an unpredictable schedule today and I'm off to catch a train right now, but I will get back to you. :bow:
Aye, sorry I didn't make my views clearer in the first place.:sweatdrop:
04-17-2007, 05:55
naut
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Very sad indeed.
Fox news is full of bollocks, not much new there though. They believe the following: "he came from a Socialist country and was offended by Western decadence so decided to kill 32 people" and "being an immigrant makes you more susceptible to psychological disorders and violence"; utter garbage.
04-17-2007, 05:57
Csargo
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rythmic
Very sad indeed.
Fox news is full of bollocks, not much new there though. They believe the following: "he came from a Socialist country and was offended by Western decadence so decided to kill 32 people" and "being an immigrant makes you more susceptible to psychological disorders and violence"; utter garbage.
It actually said that? :wall:
04-17-2007, 07:54
Del Arroyo
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
If suiciders start becoming a common problem, perhaps we should start killing their families as retaliation. Not their *whole* families, mind you, just their parents, (ex)-wives and any offspring. Perhaps adult siblings, too. That would make them think twice before going berserk.
04-17-2007, 08:06
Sheep
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
This wasn't a terrorist attack man.
04-17-2007, 08:32
Andres
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
My condolences to the family and friends of the victims.
And my condolences to the family and friends of the shooter as well. It's hard to lose a relative/good friend, must be even harder to learn your son/brother/best friend did something that horrible before dying...
Can't say much more than that right now.
04-17-2007, 09:01
naut
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
It actually said that? :wall:
Yep, I kid you not.
04-17-2007, 09:01
Ignoramus
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
It is very sad that things like this happen.
Sadly, we will never be able to prevent it. Since modern guns have been invented, it's very difficult to stop a madman armed with one.
04-17-2007, 09:14
Tribesman
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Measures must be taken to prevent further tragedies of this nature .
Stop school shootings , ban schools .
04-17-2007, 09:27
PanzerJaeger
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ichigo
It actually said that? :wall:
No. ~:rolleyes:
04-17-2007, 09:33
edyzmedieval
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
ban schools .
We have a deal Tribe. :grin:
04-17-2007, 09:43
sapi
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
EDIT: After reading the backstory to this thread, I'm not getting involved in the debate.
My condolences to the friends and family of those affected.
04-17-2007, 09:46
Major Robert Dump
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Frags claims the shooter was an immigrant are no longer unsubstantiated.
04-17-2007, 10:30
Sheep
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump
Frags claims the shooter was an immigrant are no longer unsubstantiated.
Awesome, now this will lead into the immigration debate as well as gun control.
*slaps forehead*
04-17-2007, 10:37
Scurvy
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep
Awesome, now this will lead into the immigration debate as well as gun control.
--> not really, even if it did involve an immigrant, it makes very little difference :2thumbsup:
04-17-2007, 10:38
Sheep
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scurvy
--> not really, even if it did involve an immigrant, it makes very little difference :2thumbsup:
Yeah, in reality, that's true. Sadly most of our media talking heads are quite detached from reality.
04-17-2007, 10:41
Sir Moody
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
its a horrible situation and i seriously hope some good comes out of it and things improve so that it never can happen again
Quote:
The ninnies who insisted on disarming the students, thinking idiotically that with a stroke of a pen, they magically prevent bad people from carrying guns for nefarious purposes, share some of the blame for setting up this situation.
attitudes like this really scare me i have to say - heres how i think your situation would go down
The Shooter walks down the hall shooting at his victims - a "hero" draws his gun and returns fire - someone further down the hall hears shots and see's the "hero" firing and so draws his gun and shoots the "hero" - the original shooter who was prepared and was wearing a Vest (as he was) would most likely survive and keep going - eventually you would get into the situation where students were shooting students for no other reason than they could hear shooting and were in a state of panic making the situation far worse
the solution isnt to arm everyone but is to arm NO-ONE including the original shooter - if guns are freely available then anyone could be carrying - its probably too late for this tho as the US has had freely available firearms for so long removing them now would be impossible
as to the cause i agree with an earlier poster its a fundamental break down of community that is causing this - we are having the same problem in the UK and it has a corresponding rise in violence
04-17-2007, 10:55
KafirChobee
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Gun control should be the issue ... immigration is a bogus.
The control of weapons in this country is nil, today as compared with 1999. One can buy any chemicals to build any device of proper inclusion against those they deam inferior, unpatriotic, against their own high values of humanlife (even as they murder them), or for any futuristic imagination that justifies their purchase of WMDs. It is a fact.
Congress, the old one under the Reblicanists, rolled back all the laws they previously imposed (after the attempt on Reagan's life) to protect America - and it shows. Crime has increased upto 30% in some areas (citys') and more prisons have been built than colleges or schools in general. Why? Because anyone, even a felon has access to a wmd under todays laws of "gun uncontrol".
Diverting attention from the need to impose a strict and enforcable rule for the control of weaponry in this country is insain under the present atmosphere of fear projected by the Bushys'.
Still, what the hey - one reaps what they sow. Or, gets what they deserve.
:balloon2:
04-17-2007, 11:14
Uesugi Kenshin
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
Maybe things are a bit simpler then that, USA has somewhat more space where these things may occur, I mean it's bigger then all countries in Europe combined. How long has it been since Columbine? Let's not act as if there is a trend of some sort.
If you want to make that argument you should base it on population and not area. The US is inhabited by 300 million people (plus some illegal immigrants, but Europe has some too so we won't count them)and iirc Europe has roughly 700 million inhabitants. That being said I have heard of a couple of school shootings in Germany since I first got here (last September) so it's definately not as American a phenomenon as people may think. They may be at times far worse in the US, but I can't say that for sure either. Europeans may also hear more about American school shootings as European ones, and I don't think Americans hear much of anything about European ones. But again I have no evidence so it's just a thought.
My condolences to those affected by this tragedy. I can't imagine what it would be like to be at the college at the time it occurred or to have a loved one that went to VT.
Phil McGraw is not blaming this uniquely on video games. It's a wider criticism of movies and of the glamorization of violence in society as a whole:
The question really is can we spot them. And the problem is we are programming these people as a society. You cannot tell me - common sense tells you that if these kids are playing video games, where they're on a mass killing spree in a video game, it's glamorized on the big screen, it's become part of the fiber of our society. You take that and mix it with a psychopath, a sociopath or someone suffering from mental illness and add in a dose of rage, the suggestibility is too high. And we're going to have to start dealing with that. We're going to have to start addressing those issues and recognizing that the mass murders of tomorrow are the children of today that are being programmed with this massive violence overdose.
04-17-2007, 11:39
sapi
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
@Andres
It really is.
The media should be focusing on finding a solutiont that will stop this happening again, not looking for a scapegoat...
@Adrian
To blame society in that way is to miss the point.
Society is to blame in the sense that it provided the means for the shooter to obtain the gun; taught them to shoot it; and failed to react fast enough when the tragedy unfolded.
04-17-2007, 11:41
Adrian II
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndresTheCunning
The bodies of the victims are still warm and the vultures who are in dire need of some media-attention are already popping up...
Sad, very sad :no:
People want to hear reflections, explanations, views on the matter. You can't blame them. And you can't call anyone who disagrees with you a vulture. People have strong feelings about an emotional issue like this and they will push their views forecefully, demand action, accountability, responsibility. They may put the blame in other places than you would wish; that in itself doesn't make them vultures.
04-17-2007, 11:45
Husar
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro
It sounds like he planned it and knew what he was doing.
I'm doubtful it would have been different if guns had been allowed on campus. Who would carry their gun to class? Guy had body armor anyway.
A lot of shots will annihilate even someone with body armour. You either hit another body part, or simply stun him by repeatedly hitting the vest, which will most likely still hurt him because of the energy involved.
Or you just bring bigger guns, RPGs and grenade launchers to get a higher level of security, he won't even be secure in a tank then.:sweatdrop:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
@ Ichigo. The Chicago-Sun Times report certainly vindicates your view that shooters are often bullied, tormented types. The fact that their anger and despair build up over a period of time is said to be a good thing, it means that sometimes a proactive policy will filter them out.
I posted about that in a thread where Odin told us about the school his kids go to, which apparently resembles a fortress/prison.
People who do that are usually finished with life, don't see any perspectives for the future and feel like society has abandoned them or "thrown them out" for a reason they may not even know. And like I said in the other thread, I'm speaking from some sort of experience...(please don't shoot me now, I didn't kill anyone and don't plan to, it's just a bad part of my past:sweatdrop: )
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Moody
The Shooter walks down the hall shooting at his victims - a "hero" draws his gun and returns fire - someone further down the hall hears shots and see's the "hero" firing and so draws his gun and shoots the "hero" - the original shooter who was prepared and was wearing a Vest (as he was) would most likely survive and keep going - eventually you would get into the situation where students were shooting students for no other reason than they could hear shooting and were in a state of panic making the situation far worsee
What we need are clearly autocannon towers which will automatically shoot at anyone carrying a gun. More realistically an armed campus police might help, but they should not end up being the first victims of a potential killer, because a smart one would ambush them first. Though generally stopping to leave people alone, as has been said before, would likely help a lot. A healthy family and social life plus some morals and values are the best things to make someone not do this. I think a lack of two of these already becomes dangerous.
So we have
family(have someone to talk to etc, get support here and know there is at least someone who loves you) social life(good friends, not being bullied) morals(as in don't kill people, some knowledge deep inside about death being a very bad option that doesn't solve anything)
take two away and you have a potential killer.
Just a suggestion, thoughts and input appreciated.
04-17-2007, 11:58
Adrian II
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
You finished with an interesting point. The potential impact of a more Hobbesian character (I assume from your post that you are referencing the Hobbesian state of nature and not the social compact in response to it) to our culture on such events would be pretty clear.
In the first instance, I propose that we let Thomas Hobbes himself answer the point:
In the second place, I observe the diseases of a Commonwealth that proceed from the poison of seditious doctrines, whereof one is that every private man is judge of good and evil actions. This is true in the condition of mere nature, where there are no civil laws; and also under civil government in such cases as are not determined by the law. But otherwise, it is manifest that the measure of good and evil actions is the civil law; and the judge the legislator, who is always representative of the Commonwealth. From this false doctrine, men are disposed to debate with themselves and dispute the commands of the Commonwealth, and afterwards to obey or disobey them as in their private judgments they shall think fit; whereby the Commonwealth is distracted and weakened.
The Secret Service, at least the protective detail, spends a lot of time studying whack-job shooters. They are tasked with preventing such killings in the case of our key political executives. They keep working to develop profiles, insights -- anything that will let them learn how they can maybe stop such an attack on their charges.
Incidents like Squeaky Fromme must cost those folks a lot of sleep.
Eh-- Seamus, it was me you quoted, not Rory (as you wrote him as quoted above it).
Nevertheless....
The point made in that .PDF was that most of these kids carefully plan these attacks with some motive and purpose in mind, ruthlessly cold and efficiently acted out. It doesn't necessarily have to be about wackos killing people.
But if the Secret Service is tasked with security detail in the case of key political figures, why study these "kids who do shootings at an education facility?" Still sounds suspicious.
And also suspicious in the current case is the fact that there were already people killed, and nothing happened. VERY SUSPICIOUS.
And you know what's also suspicious? When I checked the news it was as if those interviewed -- students -- hardly felt a thing, even though it was on their place, or when they were close to it, etc. They were so calm (and almost logical) about it.
In any case, I'm curious as to what caused the supposed Asian suspect to hit the place. We need the hard facts, and we need them now.
:|
04-17-2007, 13:17
Sir Moody
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
A lot of shots will annihilate even someone with body armour. You either hit another body part, or simply stun him by repeatedly hitting the vest, which will most likely still hurt him because of the energy involved.
Or you just bring bigger guns, RPGs and grenade launchers to get a higher level of security, he won't even be secure in a tank then.
actually not quite true - there was a case of a bank robbery some time ago (mid 90's i think) where the police responded - the gang were armoured in high quality full balsitic suits (the kind bomb disposal guys wear). The police were unable to injure any of the gang members who casually strolled, through a hail of pistol and shotgun rounds, to their car while spraying the police with drum fed ak47's - one even stoped while under fire to reload...
The police were forced to ditch their sidearms and shotguns and raid a local gunstore where they borrowed a load of m16's which were finally able to breach the armour and bring the event to a close - theres a video of the event somewhere ill see if i can dig it up - the incedent only proves against small arms (which is all these kids could carry) a well prepared attacker is next to immune
Quote:
What we need are clearly autocannon towers which will automatically shoot at anyone carrying a gun. More realistically an armed campus police might help, but they should not end up being the first victims of a potential killer, because a smart one would ambush them first. Though generally stopping to leave people alone, as has been said before, would likely help a lot. A healthy family and social life plus some morals and values are the best things to make someone not do this. I think a lack of two of these already becomes dangerous.
i agree here an armed campus police would have drastically improved the situation and im a little shocked there wasnt one already
Edit
i was unable to find the video in question but i did find another incident where the police had a very hard time taking the suspects down because of heavy body armour - http://www.student.oulu.fi/~hmikkola/shootout.html
04-17-2007, 13:26
Bijo
Re : Re: Virginia Tech shooting
nvm. please delete.
04-17-2007, 13:59
Seamus Fermanagh
Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijo
In any case, I'm curious as to what caused the supposed Asian suspect to hit the place. We need the hard facts, and we need them now.
:|
This is not an episode of CSI. We will not have a firm answer for days -- the legwork alone required necessitates this. It is possible we will never know the motivations behind this attack. I too, would like to know, now, what is behind all this -- but the "now" part of that is impossible and bits and pieces of info -- un-analyzed -- can create more problems than answers.
Note to all:
We create bureacracies so that we may enjoy the stability they generate. This allows us to develop routines, go about our normal days etc. When something comes out of left field, we then yell at these same bureacracies for failing to respond instantaneously with the decisions we think should have been made or the answers we want.
Please, consider this point as you evaluate this, and other, events.
04-17-2007, 14:11
Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
USA needs better laws.I think the access to weapons should be more harder.So many people died there and even good teachers.
04-17-2007, 14:37
Shahed
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
It is sick how the media is on and on about the guy being asian.
Do they ever say WHITE man shoots... ?
They intend to flare race relations. They never say anything about white, just when the criminal is black, hispanic, asian etc... you'd think all the crime in America is perpetuated by foreigners.
04-17-2007, 14:41
Dracula(Romanian Vlad Tepes)
Re: Virginia Tech shooting
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinan
It is sick how the media is on and on about the guy being asian.
Do they ever say WHITE man shoots... ?
They intend to flare race relations. They never say anything about white, just when the criminal is black, hispanic, asian etc... you'd think all the crime in America is perpetuated by foreigners.
You are right and they think that USA is the greatest country.:furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: :furious3: