Minnesota installing foot-washing facilities for Muslims?

Lately, I'd almost swear that my state seems intent on remaining the focal point for American Muslim issues.....


Story

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MCTC foot bath draws a broad response

A Minneapolis Community and Technical College proposal to install foot baths for Muslim students provokes action at the Legislature and the Minnesota State Colleges and Universities board.

By Jean Hopfensperger and Dan Wascoe, Star Tribune
Last update: April 18, 2007 – 10:09 PM


Phil Davis, president of the Minneapolis Community and Technical College, never expected his "plumbing issue" to become a national controversy.
However MCTC's plan to install foot baths for Muslims has prompted reaction from both a state legislator and the board overseeing Minnesota colleges.

On Wednesday, the board of Minnesota's State Colleges and Universities (MnSCU) system decided that it will discuss the possible creation of guidelines for all of its campuses on these types of cultural and religious accommodations at its May meeting.

And today Rep. Jim Abeler, R-Anoka, said he planned to introduce an amendment to the House Higher Education bill that would allow MnSCU workers to display religious symbols at their desks and cubicles.

"I didn't expect a plumbing fixture would become a board issue or national news," Davis said.

The foot-washing proposal sprang from an incident last year when a Muslim student slipped and hit her head while trying to wash her feet in a sink in a bathroom, MCTC staff said. There was also the potential hazard of slippery floors for other MCTC students because of the water that spilled on the floor .

The proposal was the subject of a column by the Star Tribune's Katherine Kersten, which was picked up by conservative bloggers across the country. It became the subject of a nationwide "action alert" by the American Family Association, which urged its Minnesota readers to contact their legislators regarding the MCTC proposal. Davis, bombarded with 3,000 e-mails, in turn sent letters to every Minnesota legislator and Gov. Tim Pawlenty this week.

The proposal has been misconstrued as a government institution favoring Islam over Christianity, Davis said. He noted that MCTC has a Christian Student Organization as well as a Muslim Student Organization, and that there's no preferential treatment for either.

MCTC staff said foot-washing facilities are available at colleges ranging from Stanford University, the University of Houston, Boston University, St. Cloud State and the University of Minnesota-Duluth.

In 2001, St. Cloud installed a bench and some ground-level faucets in a bathroom-sized room in the student union, said Ed Bouffard, interim director of the student center at St. Cloud State. The idea was to prevent puddles of water and slippery floors in the other restrooms, he said.

The facility, paid for by student fees, generated no controversy, he said. Most days, a handful of people use it, he said. But 30 to 40 people use the facilities on Fridays, the Muslim holy day. About a dozen Christian groups also use the student union for activities, he added.

"We're very happy to be part of a solution," Bouffard said.

A visit to the MCTC campus on Wednesday showed a major reason for the foot-washing facilities -- there are 500 Muslim students among MCTC's 8,000 total. Hundreds of young women, covered head-to-toe in traditional Muslim dress, can be found in the classrooms, library, computer labs and across campus.

Suleiman Isse, president of the Somali Student Union, and the college's Somali student adviser, Jamal Adam, said they were shocked by the opposition and hate mail that the foot-washing proposal has generated. "I thought the American people were more knowledgeable," Isse said.

At the MnSCU board meeting Wednesday, MnSCU attorney Gail Olson said the foot-washing issue raised potential constitutional issues regarding the free exercise of religion versus the establishment of religion. It might be difficult to devise a general policy for the systems' 32 institutions, she said.

Board member Cheryl Dickson said a foot-washing accommodation for Muslims at MCTC "is a safety issue and a religion issue" and could set a precedent with unforeseen consequences.

Abeler said his amendment would clarify what can be permitted in MnSCU workplaces, in light of the Muslim foot-washing issue.

"The foot-washing thing is absolutely a religious accommodations which they should do.," Abeler said. "My point is that as we accommodate one faith, we shouldn't suppress the rights of people of other faiths."

Abeler said he is likely to offer an amendment on the House floor today to send a legislative letter to college officials urging them to remember that as they might accommodate one group, they should accommodate others as well.


Staff writer Mark Brunswick contributed to this report.

So what do the rest of you guys think about this? I confess I have mixed feelings myself.

On the one hand, we're a state that's well known for our "Minnesota nice", which I admit is (mostly) a source of pride for us. Over the last several decades, this statewide attitude has included us trying to be as welcoming to minorities as possible -- we're generally considered to be a fairly progressive state in this regard. (That admittedly may be a conceit, but I'm not going to get into that argument here.) We genuinely like making people feel welcomed in our state, and that they belong here. :yes:

On the other hand, this particular incident feels like we might be going too far in trying to acommodate them. Where does one draw the line between wanting to make people feel at home, and spending public money for seemingly religious-related purposes? *Is* it even religious-related, or is more of a cultural issue? :shrug: I'm not sure, but the question troubles me.

This situation reminds me of an earlier incident from several years ago when Minnesota's Supreme Court ruled the Amish people in our state didn't have to wear bright orange reflectors on their horse-drawn buggies, as it went against their religious beliefs. I can certainly respect that, but at the same time it's a real safety issue as well -- those buggies can be hard to spot in the evenings, even with orange reflectors. Since our Supreme Court ruled they didn't have to use them, it puts everyone at risk -- car owners and Amish alike.

Seriously, where should the line be drawn? What's the difference between simply trying to acommodate & embrace different cultures, and actually bending over backwards for them? Is this simply a case of us being good citizens and helping people different from the majority population, or is it hyppocritical kow-towing?

Sounds like a new twist on those ball washing machines at the golf course.

I think it's stupid and wrong to provide public monies for providing facilities to one religious group.

CR

Read this, Martok:

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Last month, the Canadian Federation of Students issued a report, titled "Final Report of the Task Force on Needs of Muslim Students," that calls for sweeping changes at the country's institutions of higher education. The federation represents more than 500,000 students across Canada, about half of the nation's total. While the report focuses on Ontario, its conclusions are applicable across the country and internationally, said Jesse Greener, the Federation's Ontario chairperson.

Some recommended changes could affect all students. For example, the report criticizes Canada's loan-based system of financing higher education and calls for outright grants to students. "Education related government loans should not accumulate interest," it says, since Islam "opposes usury and involvement with interest-bearing loans." Other changes would be more focused. The report endorses "women-only" time at athletic facilities, and urges colleges to "provide curtains or screens over the observation windows" when women are using the pool.

The report calls not just for Muslim-only prayer space but for "multiple prayer spaces" with "easy access" from all over campus. All new building plans should include prayer space and ritual washing facilities if necessary, it adds.

Food service workers must learn to prepare halal food, which is ritually slaughtered and otherwise permissible under Sharia law. After preparing non-halal food, staff must "change sanitary gloves and wash cutlery and surfaces" to avoid contaminating halal food.

What if a campus fails to make these changes, and others like them? It is guilty, says the report, of "Islamophobia" -- an "emerging form of racism," according to the Ontario Human Rights Commission. Islamophobia includes more than clearly inappropriate behavior such as violence against Muslims or unreasonable suspicion of them. It can be as "subtle" as a remark that includes a "stereotype" or betrays the speaker's "lack of understanding" of Islam (such as the notion that Sharia law treats women as second class citizens). Just "one comment" of this kind can create a "poisoned" learning environment for Muslim students, the report says.

"Islamophobic" comments will soon land Canadians in serious trouble, if the federation has its way. The report outlines a comprehensive system "to encourage and facilitate a culture of reporting Islamophobia on campus. Anti-discrimination officers should be notified whenever such a comment is made, it says.

But the report makes clear that systems like this will not eradicate Islamophobia from Canadian campuses. To remove stereotypes, faculty, staff, students and administrators must all learn "the tenets of Islam," it said. "Education modules" for professors should incorporate a focus on "Islam and Islamophobia," while student activities could range from more courses on themes of the Qur'an and the Islamic world today to "socials, programs and other initiatives" to teach about Islam. Everyone on campus should learn to recognize his or her "collective responsibility to identify and stop Islamophobia."

Throughout this process, however, Islam must not be taught from a "Western perspective." This qualifies as Islamophobia, because it "misrepresents Islam." At the same time, the report says, some Muslim students have called for integrating "Islamic perspectives" in disciplines such as marketing, nursing and finance," since Islam's view of these differs from those of the West.

The Muslim Students Association of the U.S. and Canada is heavily involved in the Canadian Federation of Students' new report and lobbying. Its president is a member of the task force, and has been a spokesman for its recommendations. The association is the organization that Minneapolis Community and Technical College has looked to for guidance on the ritual washing issue.

Its main goal, it says, is "Dawah": spreading Islam.

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Link

Oh, and there's this:

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The MSA urges donations to such groups as the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development and the Benevolence International and Global Relief foundations.

All three groups have had their assets frozen by the Bush administration because of their alleged connections to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda terrorism network or the militant Hamas organization.

All three have denied they are terrorist front organizations, insisting they raise money for food, schools and other social services.

The MSA's Ohio State University chapter produces a Web newsletter called MSA News, which has included news releases from the Algerian Armed Islamic Group, which is on the State Department list of terrorist organizations that Americans are forbidden to support or finance, and the Islamic Salvation Front, a fundamentalist party banned in Algeria.

Altaf Husain, national president of the MSA, said his organization has no plans to stop raising money for various groups unless federal authorities crack down

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But we do make allowments for other cultural amenities. So long as nobody is being required to use the foot washer, it's up to the board of trustees of the local college (and whichever group in the Minnessota legislature that appropriates their budget) as to whether they want to blow cash on this or not. Personally, I'd like to wash my feet periodically.

A strict adherence to the dominant culture may seem like one way to stem balkanization, but in my mind, it actually does the opposite. Making allowances for somebody's religious beliefs where it does not impugn the rights of others should always be viewed as a positive undertaking.

Or do you think Quakers should be drafted into the Marine artillery?

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I think it's stupid and wrong to provide public monies for providing facilities to one religious group.

CR

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If it is public money, I would agree with you. But I don't believe it is. It sound like the expense will be funded from general revenue that the college brings in.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

But we do make allowments for other cultural amenities. So long as nobody is being required to use the foot washer, it's up to the board of trustees of the local college (and whichever group in the Minnessota legislature that appropriates their budget) as to whether they want to blow cash on this or not. Personally, I'd like to wash my feet periodically.

A strict adherence to the dominant culture may seem like one way to stem balkanization, but in my mind, it actually does the opposite. Making allowances for somebody's religious beliefs where it does not impugn the rights of others should always be viewed as a positive undertaking.

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Wow not bad for a New Hampshire guy :2thumbsup:

I agree with Don here, if the college chooses to fund it on thier own I dont see any problem with that. Arent colleges institutions that are supposed to attempt to address the needs of its students?

If the money dosent infringe on other groups then I'm for it. However the cynical side of me has raised a flag and as Martok points out

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Seriously, where should the line be drawn? What's the difference between simply trying to acommodate & embrace different cultures, and actually bending over backwards for them?

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Right now I would lean on the side of accomedation, with an eye for watching future accomedations.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Sounds like a new twist on those ball washing machines at the golf course.

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Maybe, but those ball washing machines hurt. :dizzy2:

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Originally Posted by Goofball

If it is public money, I would agree with you. But I don't believe it is. It sound like the expense will be funded from general revenue that the college brings in.

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I believe this is a public institution (community colleges usually are), which gets government support. And even then, they are taking money from the general student body to pay for this religious installment. I highly doubt they'd use any money to build a Church.

Look at the article Louis posted - do you think the Muslims are going to be happy with just feet washing facilities? They're trying to turn colleges into Islamic institutions.

CR

It's a shame that I was so busy blabbering my own views that I missed Louis' timely and cutting post. It certainly puts a whole new spin on things, now doesn't it.... :inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Look at the article Louis posted - do you think the Muslims are going to be happy with just feet washing facilities? They're trying to turn colleges into Islamic institutions.

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Careful, slippery slope ahead.

'Teh Muslims' don't act in unison, don't have a common will or programme. Granting some Muslims in Minneapolis a washbasin is not the same as handing your daughters over to the entire Muslim world, leaving them all your farms and shops and leaving Minnesota forever in long, depressed caravans without bright orange reflectors.

Now look at the slippery slope fallacy you introduced - do you think posters are going to be happy to just slide down slippery arguments? They're going to try and introduce ad homs. And then arguments from authority. And finally strawmen and all that! And if we let them, they will start using contradictions, tautologies, foreign grammar, all language will break down! Oh my God! :stunned:


:juggle2: ~:)

Like the guy in the article said, it's a plumbing issue. Some of the students would like to have this, why not? It's not a religious/cultural issue.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

I believe this is a public institution (community colleges usually are), which gets government support. And even then, they are taking money from the general student body to pay for this religious installment. I highly doubt they'd use any money to build a Church.

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So, where do you draw the line?

Not all of the student body plays soccer. Should the college be prohibited from using student fees to maintain their sports fields on the grounds that they are giving extraordinary consideration to a special interest group?

No. As long as they are using money that they take in as revenue for services provided (not government money), the college should be allowed to spend it on whatever they want, just like any other business.

Seriously though, it seems stupid and hypocritical. If you can't have a bible or crucifix in the classroom why do you want foot washing machines?

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Originally Posted by Adrian II

Careful, slippery slope ahead.

'Teh Muslims' don't act in unison, don't have a common will or programme. Granting some Muslims in Minneapolis a washbasin is not the same as handing your daughters over to the entire Muslim world, leaving them all your farms and shops and leaving Minnesota forever in long, depressed caravans without bright orange reflectors.

Now look at the slippery slope fallacy you introduced - do you think posters are going to be happy to just slide down slippery arguments? They're going to try and introduce ad homs. And then arguments from authority. And finally strawmen and all that! And if we let them, they will start using contradictions, tautologies, foreign grammar, all language will break down! Oh my God! :stunned:


:juggle2: ~:)

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Maybe you should take another gander at the article Louis posted. There's plenty of reason to believe that they are trying to turn Colleges into Islamic schools.

Heck, they've got it all - indoctrinating students, demanding courses be taught from a Muslim perspective, radically changing everything to suit Muslims, and condemning everyone who disagreed as a 'Islamophobic'.

EDIT: Goofball - soccer is provided as one of many sports (and title IX means equal mens and womens teams are offered). This university is doing this only for Muslim students, and nothing for people of other religions.

Crazed Rabbit

I think what bothers people the most about this sort of thing is the perceived hypocricy. Let's say instead of a foot-washer, the money was used to install a confessional for the Catholic folk that attend the university. Nobody was required to attend, and it was freely available for use by anyone, Catholic or not. Do we all think we'd be quite so PC on this?

But I would argue big deal about the foot-washer, and if somebody could get it approved locally, big deal about the confessional. The right answer isn't to screw others as you've been screwed. The right answer is to solve the original problem... this manic need to obfuscate any non-Islamic public expression of religion Western intelligensia seems to suffer.

As for Louis's post, the more I think about it, the more I ponder. As Adrian says, even if it's all true, it's still a slippery slope argument. The idea is that today they're asking for foot-washers, tomorrow they'll be demanding everyone use them. Believe me, if apostasy is the true goal of the group that asked for it, they've thought about this carefully, and by refusing the request, you're helping them as much, if not more, than giving it to them. The trick to groups like them are understanding where the line is. You don't fight them on trivial items leading to the line. You look for the line to be crossed, then you dig in.

Saying "nope, because one day you might use this action to justify even more ridiculous demands" just makes Western authorities appear callous and unresponsive, something that plays well into those that are trying to Islamacize the population.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Maybe you should take another gander at the article Louis posted. There's plenty of reason to believe that they are trying to turn Colleges into Islamic schools.

Heck, they've got it all - indoctrinating students, demanding courses be taught from a Muslim perspective, radically changing everything to suit Muslims, and condemning everyone who disagreed as a 'Islamophobic'.

Crazed Rabbit

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Oh, I have read their programme., It is totally ridiculous. But so is the refusal to install a washbasin in Minneapolis.

Foot washing is a Christian practice as well, I just looked it up :laugh4:

So, you'd consider a refusal to install a confessional ridiculous as well, Adrian?

CR

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Originally Posted by The Article

The foot-washing proposal sprang from an incident last year when a Muslim student slipped and hit her head while trying to wash her feet in a sink in a bathroom, MCTC staff said. There was also the potential hazard of slippery floors for other MCTC students because of the water that spilled on the floor .

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WTF ?! Are you kidding me ?? You can slip in the bathroom if you spill water ?!! Oh noes, now I'm afraid to go into the washroom at all!!
Slippery floor ? Take ******* care then, eh ? How about that ?

When will I get those straps installed that will prevent me from falling into the damn toilet when I sit on it ?! I've already ruined three pair of pants...:furious3:

The premise for this thing is retarded.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

So, you'd consider a refusal to install a confessional ridiculous as well, Adrian?

CR

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You mean there is none?

Over here, every university has pastors of various denominations who get to use rooms or halls or offices when they need them for services, prayers, debates, group sessions, baking matzes, all the known superstitions. A bit like army chaplains. I pay for them with my taxes even though I don't believe in God myself, and I don't mind doing so for a second because such spiritual focal points for students and staff support a good educational environment, and I'm in favour of good education for all. So what's the hullabaloo?

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Originally Posted by Blodrast

WTF ?! Are you kidding me ?? You can slip in the bathroom if you spill water ?!! Oh noes, now I'm afraid to go into the washroom at all!!
Slippery floor ? Take ******* care then, eh ? How about that ?

When will I get those straps installed that will prevent me from falling into the damn toilet when I sit on it ?! I've already ruined three pair of pants...:furious3:

The premise for this thing is retarded.

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Careful now, or you'll upset AdrianII with your slippery floor argument. :sneaky:

This may be part of the cause for irritation and, as it turns out, misunderstanding. In the US, no public funds are supposed to be allowed for religious support in any form. This includes banning nativity scenes from publicly owned property and the like. When it comes to making certain no mention of Christianity gets made, it's quite effective. The anger stems from the hypocricy of it. While the intelligensia are having children sent home for handing out candy canes or easter candy to their 1st grade friends, they're making the Quran required reading at places like UNC-Chapel Hill, and they're requiring cultural immersion programs for kids in California to pretend that they're devout muslims.

There's two approaches to this problem. Secularism (nobody gets to say anything, like France) or pluralism (everybody gets to say whatever they want, from the sounds of it, the Netherlands). The USA is about halfway there, and it's that imbalance that causes the strife. We have to make a decision which side of the fence we want to stand on when it comes to all of this.

The short answer, Adrian, is no. Even a self-paid for confessional would have the university facing legal action until it was removed, let alone one that was paid for with school funds.

Well, then, lemme give him more fodder, hmm ? :laugh4:
Another thing that ****** me off is that this has been turned into a religious thing. How is it relevant that it was a Muslim girl that slipped and hurt herself ? If it had been a Christian girl, would we have installed basins for Christians (allowing other religions to use them too, naturally) ? How about if it were an agnostic who fell ?

...

Another question: if the floor of the bathroom is slippery, will installing these basins ensure that the floor will no longer be slippery ?
ALL the damned washrooms I've ever been in had, at some point or other, a slippery floor, and I've never, ever seen anybody washing their feet in the sinks - so that is unlikely to have been the cause.
So, if that's not the cause, and the floors will STILL be ****** slippery, what exactly does this solve ?

I would think there would be more against this considering the modern standard of separation of church and state. Installing foot-washers certainly could be seen as endorsing one religion's customs over others.

Personally, if I were a student at the school, I think I'd be miffed that they're wasting resources on something like this when I, nor most other students would receive any benefit from it unless they subscribed to a certain belief system.

BUT, since I'm not a student there, and don't even live in the state, it's tough to see why I should care too much...

It seems like this whole thing could have been avoided if she had simply washed her feet in the toilet. The elevation is just right, there is privacy, and always plenty of paper to dry up with. Perhaps the handicap stalls would be best. They do have that hand rail after all.

Have You smelled those feet before? Seriously. They need to be washed at least a couple of times a day. I'd prefer they fork out the money rather than me gag to death on the fowl odor of rotten feet.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

I think what bothers people the most about this sort of thing is the perceived hypocricy. Let's say instead of a foot-washer, the money was used to install a confessional for the Catholic folk that attend the university. Nobody was required to attend, and it was freely available for use by anyone, Catholic or not. Do we all think we'd be quite so PC on this?

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If the Catholic faith required its adherents to go to confession every day at say, 11am, making it difficult for them to attend a university or college that did not offer on site confessionals, then I think it would be a reasonable thing for a school to spend its money on, assuming there were enough Catholic students to make it worthwhile.

As long, of course, as it wasn't public $$ being used.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

But I would argue big deal about the foot-washer, and if somebody could get it approved locally, big deal about the confessional. The right answer isn't to screw others as you've been screwed.

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Wow Don. That sounds (at least to this sinner) like a truly Christian attitude. I applaud you.

:bow:

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

The right answer is to solve the original problem... this manic need to obfuscate any non-Islamic public expression of religion Western intelligensia seems to suffer.

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I agree.

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Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat

Careful now, or you'll upset AdrianII with your slippery floor argument. :sneaky:

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In France this problem is probably unknown as toilets consist of a hole in the floor and a brush on a stick. Oh, and a bucket of water - if you're lucky.
Speaking of slippery...


Nasty, I know, I know. Couldn't resist. ~:grouphug:

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It seems like this whole thing could have been avoided if she had simply washed her feet in the toilet. The elevation is just right, there is privacy, and always plenty of paper to dry up with. Perhaps the handicap stalls would be best. They do have that hand rail after all.

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Wow beat me to it. Its too sensible a solution.

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If the Catholic faith required its adherents to go to confession every day at say, 11am, making it difficult for them to attend a university or college that did not offer on site confessionals, then I think it would be a reasonable thing for a school to spend its money on, assuming there were enough Catholic students to make it worthwhile.

As long, of course, as it wasn't public $$ being used.

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I bet Notre Dame has a few confessionals on campus :laugh4:

By the way isnt this really a Jewish custom? And in fact dont or didnt Jews have to take purification baths before going to temple?

@ foot-washers-- Why not? It's a faucet close to the floor. It's not Islamic, it's plumbing.

@ all the stuff that Louis the Fat mentioned-- Yeah, we basically need to wake up and kick all of these Wahhabi agitators square in the nuts.

Foot Washing is common to many cultures, from China to Appalachia. It isn't just a religious ritual (and most major religions practice this not just Islam), but a cultural practice as well. So long as the proposed facilities are open to all, what's the big deal? Wash your dirty stinky feet, heathen!:bow:

This is why I don't post much in the Backroom anymore. People focus on such small things like this, and it's just too predictable what everyone's reaction will be. :rolleyes:

To the people crying foul about hypocrisy, and for anyone else who just wants to know the actual experiences of an American college kid, here is a small tidbit of info. I have much more if wanted.

http://www.housing.umich.edu/dining/religious.html

We have a nice cheap meal system here, but our Jewish students can transfer their meal credits to eat nicely prepared Kosher to suit their religious sensibilities. :smiley:

To my knowledge, this is the only special religious meal accommodation they have here (they have programs for various holidays however Diwali, Passover, Ramadan, etc, but no Muslim or Hindu dietary plans).

Also to my knowledge, there have been no Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Buddhist, Atheist/Secular complaints of religious favoritism or hypocrisy because of this program.

I wonder however, if someone were to think foot washers for Muslims or Halal meals are "hypocritical" is it the same for Jewish Kosher plans?

If so, where is the outrage by the usual suspects? Why was not a thread posted on it?

Personally, I am pleased to have such a nice program for the Jewish students at my college. I wouldn't mind one for any other religious group either.

I say they can get them installed, but only if they put in a baptism font next to it. ~D



And you KNOW some drunk student would probably urinate in both of them at some point...

I think my biggest concerns are the potential hypocrisy involved-- like a couple of you pointed out, there would almost certainly be a big to-do if this involved installing a confessional booth -- and the fact that this is happening on a public college. We Minnesotans generally take the whole "separation of church & state" thing pretty seriously, and I can't help but feel that this is probably qualifies as such....however mild a case it may be.

And yet....we don't to shut these people out, either. My state is as religious as any (albeit not ostenatiously so, unlike the "Bible Belt" states), so most of us can sympathize with Muslims on at least some level. I mean, it's not like we can really blame them for following a religion that simply happens to require more weekly rituals than Protestantism or Catholicism. [sigh]

The funny (yet sad) thing is, this whole matter probably wouldn't have even have shown up on anyone's radar were it not been for the problem with our airport taxi drivers. Now everyone here is on edge, and as a result we seem to be suffering from some anti-Muslim backlash at the moment. I'm in disbelief -- not to say appalled -- that some of our Somali residents have received hate mail over this issue with the foot-washing facility. It's not like my fellow Minnesotans to behave so poorly. I can understand some resentment and concern, but the sudden hate-mongering is....distressing, to say the least. Whatever I or others might think or feel about the issue, there's no excuse for this extreme response. :shame:

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Originally Posted by Gregoshi

Maybe, but those ball washing machines hurt. :dizzy2:

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Golf is never going to be the same again for me. :embarassed:

As to the topic, I have mixed views. If it is a completely private college that receives no public funding whatsoever, then I could care less if they do this. If it's a public university or college, then I'm squarely against it. As someone pointed out, there's a difference between embracing other cultures, and then bending over backwards/crawling for them. Do this for one, and you'll have every single other one raising an uproar about discrimination and lack of preferential treatment, anyone who says this won't happen clearly has never been attended college.

Edit - Offtopic possibly.

Martok, about the taxi drivers, I believe we're going to see some real focus on squashing that and some other aspects in the workforce that have gotten out of control, IMO. The other one that comes to mind is pharmacists, since my dad is one I hear about issues related to that quite often. It would appear that in regards to dispensing prescriptions, the law is probably going to end up looking something like as follows:

If the pharmacist objects and will not dispense the prescription, then they will not be forced to. However, they WILL be required to accommodate the customer's request through some means easily accessible to them. This would entail something like calling in a backup within half an hour or so to fill it, or locating a nearby pharmacy within some arbitrary distance that is willing to fill the prescription and honor any discounts/etc that the intended pharmacy will. In fact it's possible that the 2nd option will not even make it in, and the store/pharmacist will be required to call in a backup.

I don't object to people who wish to exercise their religious beliefs, indeed that's part of the cornerstones of what the US is about, freedom to practice your religion. What it seems like is happening, and I agree with, is that that freedom is somewhat limited when it starts to affect other people. As a pharmacist, you will be forced into certain situations you may not like. The big argument is that by aiding and abetting the filling out of a prescription for birth control or whatever, that violates their rights. Sorry, but when in a critical job that involves medicine, one's rights to their beliefs only extend so far before they negatively impact someone else. As such, one doesn't have to fill the prescription, but one MUST provide an alternative whether they like it or not. Same goes with being a taxi driver, and I'd imagine that something similar to what I stated above (provided that is what the end result will look like) is going to occur. The exception may be in terms of safety or health, say for example the driver goes to pick up someone stranded (I'm just making this up, bear with me) in the middle of nowhere, and they happen to have some kind of alcohol on their person. In this case it probably wouldn't be feasible or reasonable to expect another driver to come out and take a long time to pick up the individual, in such a case the driver would be forced to transport the person and their cargo.

Just some food for thought.

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by drone

And you KNOW some drunk student would probably urinate in both of them at some point...

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You just ruined the whole idea for me. :sweatdrop:

:daisy: alcohol. I suspect I'll be turning Prohibitionist soon enough once I get on the College ride. That or dead drunk, either way.

But that's off-topic. Anyway, I think it's all really a non-issue. On one hand they say it's because she slipped, not because she's a freaking Muslim. That would mean even if she's a Scientologist the issue would still there. On the other hand the Muslim card is being played on and complained a lot on. So they have a large minority and accommodate for them in a way that others can use too (the tradition of washing one's feet before entering the house/holy place/hellhole is far more widespread than most Western people think anyway, and that's not considering that it's a place to wash one's foot. Every bloody person can use it if they want to, for sanitary, religious, cultural, or no reason whatsoever), big deal.

And just to make sure, I'm being a little aggressive against the idiots talked about in the article, not the posters here, which are very rational and temperate so far.

I do like to think of myself as a fairly tolerant individual, but I think it's a bit silly for them to install special wash basins which only one group uses regulary, and that group is also quite small (500 from 8000). That and it is possible for them to wash their feet in say a shower for example. They could buy a brush with a long handle stick a foot in hold tightly to the wall or something and scrub away and then switch feet. That and trying to wash your feet in a sink is really really dumb. Firstly it seems a bit unhygenic, and secondly the chance that you'r going to fall and smack your head off the floor is quite high since you're pretty much by default going to spill water and with one foot in the sink you're not exactly well balanced. I say they just tell the students to buy a brush and wash their feet in the showers. They could slowly faze in shower heads that can be removed from the wall (that's called a wand or something isn't it?) because everybody will take advantage of those, but they shouldn't if they cost a ton. They could even slowly start installing railings in the showers if they don't already have them because everybody can use them too, even if I'd probably only use them to balance my shampoo and soap on...

They can have their foot washing machines as long as I can have my Islamophobia and Homophobia, I have a RIGHT to Phobias!:juggle2:

Just out of curiosity, what would "foot-washing facilities" cost, per unit? Google found this place selling beach/foot washing setups for about $1,700 per. But that doesn't include drainage plumbing, or water supply.

I'm still unclear on what exact facility is needed, and the cost. Or are we gonna import labor to do the job manually?