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All babies go to heaven !
says vatican
Well, perhaps I'm going to have to revise my opinion on Pope Benedict a bit. I would have figured he would be more the type to damn all those little souls (well, damn to limbo at least) and reinforce the importance of baptism to get into heaven.
This would also mean that non-christian/non-catholic babies can get into heaven, which leaves open the door for a (more) secular form of Catholicism, just when I was afraid Benedict wanted to take us back to the dark ages.
:medievalcheers:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Are there many Belgians left who take the Vatican serious?
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Adrian II
Are there many Belgians left who take the Vatican serious?
Errr...probably not.
Though West Flanders still has an active Catholic community, the influence of the Vatican itself is minor I believe. In the rest of the country it's mostly the older people who still go to church. There are some 'new' younger believers, but protestantism seems to be more popular with those (they tend to be alternative types, so I guess they'd want an alternative religion too).
Of course, I'm from Antwerp (the region anyway), a traditional secular/atheist haven, so I might have a wrong picture of the rest of the country. (see my other post in the 'speak Durch... ' thread on how isolationist we tend to be.)
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Good, now that they've had that question lifted off our consciences we can all go back to relaxing.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
not that I give a damn...
but I find it funny how they just change their minds from one day to another....
I mean....wasn´t the former position of the church supposed to be God´s position?
so what happen?....did he call them in the bat-phone and say he changed his mind or what??? :laugh4:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
bat-phone! ROFLOL :laugh4:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
I thought this has been practice for the last couple of decades?
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Ronin
not that I give a damn...
but I find it funny how they just change their minds from one day to another....
Theologians have been studying the issue at least as far back as 1984 before they came to this conclusion.
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Originally Posted by Ronin
I mean....wasn´t the former position of the church supposed to be God´s position?
so what happen?....did he call them in the bat-phone and say he changed his mind or what??? :laugh4:
Welcome to the wonderful world of Catholicism ~D
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by doc_bean
Welcome to the wonderful world of Catholicism ~D
That's the great thing about Catholicism - it's so vague. No-one knows what it's really all about.
- Father Ted Crilly
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AW: All babies go to heaven !
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Holy Mother Church moves forward at a spiritual and not a temporal pace.
Since the Lord rarely chooses direct conversation, part of the journey of spiritual growth is using our poor and imperfect powers of understanding to come closer and closer to Him [my use of the masculine pronoun is traditional, I suspect any male/female designation is actually irrelevant].
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Well I must admit the title of this thread threw me off. Then when I saw the Vatican link I was like what the hell is this. I was raised Catholic and we were always taught that all babies go to heaven. Then I read the article and the part about them not being baptised. Well that sort of made sense. It was just a way of making people become Catholic in the old days. Well I guess nowdays as well. However this has never been the official doctrine of the church. They had no doctrine on it. Now they do.
PS Notice what his stement says
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pe Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven.
He didnt say they will. Maybe he lacks faith :inquisitive:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
errr... does this mean I can get my money back for the indulgences I bought?
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
It relates to a similar perspective which states that those who haven't been exposed to the Gospel cannot be damned, because the opportunity for salvation was never presented to no fault of their own.
Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
It relates to a similar perspective which states that those who haven't been exposed to the Gospel cannot be damned, because the opportunity for salvation was never presented to no fault of their own.
Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.
Correct:smash:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Which of course demonstrates the total absurdity of the existential perspective of the Roman Catholic Church and its splinter organizations.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.
Sweet!
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.
IN that case I am pretty sure Benedict himself is inoculated.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Which of course demonstrates the total absurdity of the existential perspective of the Roman Catholic Church and its splinter organizations.
exactly!
if they wanted to ensure "salvation" for everyone they would simply stop preaching and disband...
no one hears about the gospel......everyone goes to heaven....
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Ronin
exactly!
if they wanted to ensure "salvation" for everyone they would simply stop preaching and disband...
no one hears about the gospel......everyone goes to heaven....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics believe that salvation is attained through faith and good works - if lack of the former would be unculpable, there's still the other...
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Well, that's basically what I was told since Jesus said "Let the kids come to me."
Nice to know the pope found that out as well, if he goes on with that speed, he may still finish reading the bible in his lifetime.~;)
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Oh well, it is nice that they finally got something right don't you think?
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
It relates to a similar perspective which states that those who haven't been exposed to the Gospel cannot be damned, because the opportunity for salvation was never presented to no fault of their own.
Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.
Nope.
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Originally Posted by Fenring
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics believe that salvation is attained through faith and good works - if lack of the former would be unculpable, there's still the other...
:yes:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
LOL.
This is old news though, 9 months to a year.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla
LOL.
This is old news though, 9 months to a year.
Well it obviously only applies to people conveived after the revision.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Who is this Jesus, of which you speak?
[OK I'm in] :sweatdrop:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Fenring
Well it obviously only applies to people conveived after the revision.
of course.....God is all forgiving...but a contract is a contract folks!!!
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
errr... does this mean I can get my money back for the indulgences I bought?
Did you keep the receipt? The Church is very good at keeping records. :yes:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.
Religions tend to from time to time split into two broad camps, organised seekers of the human soul vs organised willful ignorance. The first creates some of the greatest works of art and ideas in human existence the later tends to make bonfires of them.
So ignorance and religion have a time honoured tradition of embrace and conflict.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Who is this Jesus, of which you speak?
[OK I'm in] :sweatdrop:
Whom... of whom. :)
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by InsaneApache
Who is this Jesus, of which you speak?
[OK I'm in]
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Originally Posted by KukriKhan
Whom... of whom. :)
Technically, the first is part of a predicate nominative construction, so 'who' is correct. The second should indeed be 'whom,' but I'm all for phasing the objective form out of our language anyhow, so meh.
And back on topic: I didn't realize that limbo for infants was not official Roman Catholic doctrine. Fascinating as Catholic theology is, this was one tenet I could never appreciate. The change is welcome news, and I think does make the possibilities for Benedict's pontificate more interesting.
Ajax
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Well it obviously only applies to people conveived after the revision.
Ill say this for you all one more time slowly so you will understand. "There was no revision" This is the first time the church has taken a official stance on this matter. Instead of praising them for making the right choice(even though they hedged their bets) many of you are ridiculing them.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
"There was no revision" This is the first time the church has taken a official stance on this matter.
That's why we are all so impressed. This is good news for babies and other believers.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
I've known some very evil babies. I don't think its fair to get a free pass just because you are a baby.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
Well I must admit the title of this thread threw me off. Then when I saw the Vatican link I was like what the hell is this. I was raised Catholic and we were always taught that all babies go to heaven. Then I read the article and the part about them not being baptised. Well that sort of made sense. It was just a way of making people become Catholic in the old days. Well I guess nowdays as well. However this has never been the official doctrine of the church. They had no doctrine on it. Now they do.
I believe I was raised with the limbo idea, technically, I at least knew that was the (semi) official stance. We do have a much cooler word for it in Dutch though 'voorgeborchte ', it's also the place where the good people go who were born before Jesus lived (or died, not sure about the time in between).
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PS Notice what his stement says
He didnt say they will. Maybe he lacks faith :inquisitive:
I always suspected him of being more of a traditionalist than a believer.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Babies do have an unfair advantage in the limbo though. I don't think it would be so bad for them.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Babies do have an unfair advantage in the limbo though. I don't think it would be so bad for them.
Yeah. I mean how much time can god give you for just one little old original sin?
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I believe I was raised with the limbo idea,
I was also for adults. I dont think theve shot down the idea of limbo here though.
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AW: All babies go to heaven !
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He didnt say they will. Maybe he lacks faith
Then maybe James Earl Jones -- if he finds his lack of faith disturbing -- should keep him in a distant chokehold :laugh4:
But belief this, and belief that, babies to heaven, blah blah, yadda yadda, bing boop.... beh! Let us look at the simple fact(s): Earth is already Hell :saint:
And no: I'm not cynical.... not at all.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
I thought this was always the case? :huh:
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma
Which of course demonstrates the total absurdity of the existential perspective of the Roman Catholic Church and its splinter organizations.
What do you mean by splinter organisations?
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Ha!
I'm with Gawain on this, too many people tryin to shoot down Holy Mother Church, for no good reason.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
Just recently visited the Vatican myself. Did you know that inside the Vatican, a tiny litte state that I could run from one side to the other in less than 5 minutes, is contatined over 30% of the world's entire Art value (in money). Probably because of the Pieta which is worth in the 100s of Millions, and the Sistine Chapel which itself could easily fetch several Billion.
Sorry, slight OT.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny
I was also for adults. I dont think theve shot down the idea of limbo here though.
Yup, i'm pretty sure that remains.
I'm not sure what the official Catholic stand is on what happens to them at the end of days though.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by IrishArmenian
What do you mean by splinter organisations?
probably protestants and the like.
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Re: All babies go to heaven !
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Originally Posted by Vladimir
Did you keep the receipt? The Church is very good at keeping records. :yes:
just wait a minute and I'll bring it back from the museum :laugh4: