The dangers of being a Vegan

It can get you life in prison.

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Vegan parents guilty in infant murder 6-week-old died of starvation after being fed diet of soy milk, apple juice

By BETH WARREN The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 05/02/07

The parents of a baby that died of starvation after being fed a vegan diet have been found guilty of malice murder, felony murder and first degree cruelty to children.

Jade Sanders, 27, and Lamont Thomas, 31, will get an automatic life sentence for the death of their 6-week-old infant, Crown. After being fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice, he weighed only 3 1/2 pounds when he died.

The Fulton County jury deliberated the case for about seven hours.

Prosecutors said it was a chilling case of murder by starvation, a painful and prolonged death. Attorneys representing Sanders and Thomas told jurors the first-time parents did the best they could while adhering to their vegan lifestyle. Vegans typically live free of animal products.

"They're not vegans, they're baby killers," Fulton prosecutor Mike Carlson told the jury Tuesday during his closing arguments.

The couple's attorneys said they didn't realize their baby, born at home, was in danger until minutes before he died.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/r...?ArtNum=185948

These two qualify for an honourary Darwin award. :no:

I saw that, despicable.

Did they really think that soy milk would be a substitute for breast milk? I feel sorry for the baby, born to parents with no common sense. I don't feel sorry for the parents at all.

Its a shame we can't just criminalise stupidity.

Why do vegans not eat dairy products? Because they oppose animal husbandry, and taking baby animals from their mothers so we can have the milk instead.

None of which are exactly issues in breast feeding a baby human.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Its a shame we can't just criminalise stupidity.

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:yes:

Sadly, there wouldn't be enough jails...

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Originally Posted by Andres

:yes:

Sadly, there wouldn't be enough jails...

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Just so long as we have enough timber and hemp...

Vegan diets can be sufficient for a human being to live off of.

Based on the info, the couple was clearly unfit for parenting. Why they got life-sentences for this is beyond me. This was a crime of negligence and stupidity, but I find it hard to see the couple as "savage baby killers". Although we love to use that term, don't we?.

I read this story earlier, very sad stuff. Why anybody would think that a newborn could exist on a vegan diet ... ugh.

Reminds me of a girl I used to work with, who declared that she had gone vegan. I was curious: "Where do you get your proteins? Calcium? Are you taking supplements?"

She looked at me blankly. "You do know that you have to be very careful when you're a vegan, right?" I said. She shook her head.

Fortunately, I saw her eating a burger not a month later, so all's well that ends well.

I'm just wondering how they thought a 3 1/2 pound baby was normal. And the fact that they ignored the big label on the soy milk container - NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BABY FORMULA.

And why didn't they try breastfeeding? Or is that against veganism?

Hippies... I wonder now, is there a vegan menu option in prison? There wasn't last time....

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Its a shame we can't just criminalise stupidity.

Why do vegans not eat dairy products? Because they oppose animal husbandry, and taking baby animals from their mothers so we can have the milk instead.

None of which are exactly issues in breast feeding a baby human.

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(This should answer your question too Grey Fox) Vegans believe in eating no animal products. That includes dairy products like milk, cheese, and eggs. While not meat they are from an animal. So these two ejits lumped human breast milk into that catergory, and refused to feed it to their son.

I also think that giving them life terms is a bit extreme. They do deserve some jail time.

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Originally Posted by lars573

(This should answer your question too Grey Fox) Vegans believe in eating no animal products. That includes dairy products like milk, cheese, and eggs. While not meat they are from an animal. So these two ejits lumped human breast milk into that catergory, and refused to feed it to their son.

I also think that giving them life terms is a bit extreme. They do deserve some jail time.

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So the woman thought of herlself more or less as a cow. And yet, paradoxically, cows feed their offspring with milk!

Like I said ejits. They're probably the types that don't believe anything a doctor says. "Cause he works for the man, man!"

There's no intent here that I can see, just asnoishing amounts of stupidity. I get the feeling the jury just declared them guilty of murder because they felt the couple deserved a life sentence, but not much can be made out from the text.

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Originally Posted by Fenring

There's no intent here that I can see, just asnoishing amounts of stupidity. I get the feeling the jury just declared them guilty of murder because they felt the couple deserved a life sentence, but not much can be made out from the text.

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Agreed, they don't deserve to be trialed for murder What complete morons, maybe it is for the better the kid died, keeps the genepool real.

and no I don't mean that, bleh biohugend :thumbsdown:

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Originally Posted by CrossLOPER

Vegan diets can be sufficient for a human being to live off of.

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Well, humans can't live from milk only, babies can, so I'm not sure whether comparing babies to adults like that is ok.
I don't really understand the vegan "lifestyle" anyway, vegetarian is understandable to some degree, but vegan? Why is milk bad?:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by Husar

I don't really understand the vegan "lifestyle" anyway, vegetarian is understandable to some degree, but vegan? Why is milk bad?:inquisitive:

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It's all about not exploiting animals for human use. Milk, leather, anything that comes from animals. I can't really see how you could adhere to this in today's society, but whatever. Why the mother wasn't breast-feeding is a mystery, since that would be exploiting a human for human use. Maybe she wanted to start smoking the pot again, and didn't want to pass it along. Damn hippies! :hippy: :hippie:

A life sentence? This surely wasn't murder, since there was no intent....

Is this case an argument that a jury shouldn't decide the sentence, only the verdict? I'd say so.

Mrs. Apache had a swivel-eyed friend who was a vegan and a Jehovahs Witness. The evenings used to fly by. :sweatdrop:

Anyway she 'rescued' a dog from the pound and then only fed it veggies, just as you would with an omni/carnivore. He died as well. He was called Batley.

Absolute nutcase. :wall:

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Originally Posted by Fenring

There's no intent here that I can see, just asnoishing amounts of stupidity. I get the feeling the jury just declared them guilty of murder because they felt the couple deserved a life sentence, but not much can be made out from the text.

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Well, they're really pushing the boundaries of stupidity in this case. That poor baby lived for 6 weeks of slow, painful starvation. It's not like they just made a stupid mistake and oops, the baby died. They starved it to death over a period of a 6 weeks- the suffering that baby went through was probably unimaginable. :no:

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Originally Posted by Myrddraal

A life sentence? This surely wasn't murder, since there was no intent....

Is this case an argument that a jury shouldn't decide the sentence, only the verdict? I'd say so.

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They were both charged with malice murder, felony murder and first degree cruelty to children. I guess the procecution wanted to make an example out of their stupidity. Now I can see them being guilty of neglegent homocide or manslaughter. But felony murder, I don't know.

Ugh, I can't stand vegetarianism or veganism. Or "vegetarians who eat fish". Damned hippies...

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Originally Posted by Duke Malcolm

Ugh, I can't stand vegetarianism or veganism. Or "vegetarians who eat fish". Damned hippies...

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It's like any other choice an adult makes; there's some bad and some good, and you'd better read up and know what you're doing before you mess with your diet. There's nothing more sad than an uneducated vegan.

Any action you take which leads to willfully starving a baby to death, however, merits jail time. Veganism and vegetarianism are for grown-ups, folks.

All I have to say is that these are some heartless mo%*$^@!$+ers. 6 weeks!?!? 6 weeks!?!? All i have to say is that anybody here that's thinking 'geez, they just didn't know any better' hasn't spent any time around infants. Princess Jillian is about as sweet as they come, and I couldn't stand 6 seconds of her crying when she's hungry, let alone 6 weeks!? That baby must have been shrieking incessantly. How on earth did they keep from going insane?

I would say, I'd like to know who gave this brain trust the bright idea that vegans cannot consume human breastmilk either. The authorities should book them on accessory charges. Encouraging this sort of behavior should be criminal at some level as well.

Also, weren't they taking their baby in for follow ups at 2 and 4 weeks? Diddn't the doctor notice that the baby's weight had dropped to 3 1/2 lbs??!?!? They don't let you take your baby home in the first place unless he/she weighs at least 5 lbs.

I see lots of culpability all the way around here. Poor little boy, what a horrific way to go. :shame:

There are probably aggravating factors, like turning the television up loudly and closing the baby off in a room, or engaging in other activities besides watching the kid. Also, the first link said the kid was born at home, so he didn't get the super cocktail formula they give newborns in the hospital, so he was off to a bad start from the go.

A longer article:



http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13245543/d...5243&qs=1;bp=t

Hmmm...

Vegans deny their child a proper diet out of a combination of ignorance and adherence to ideological dogma, causing the child's death, and they get thrown in jail for murder.

JWs deny their children a routine but critical blood transfusion out of a combination of ignorance and adherence to religous dogma, causing their children to die, and they face no criminal charges because they did it under orders from God.

Seems fair to me.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

All I have to say is that these are some heartless mo%*$^@!$+ers. 6 weeks!?!? 6 weeks!?!? All i have to say is that anybody here that's thinking 'geez, they just didn't know any better' hasn't spent any time around infants. Princess Jillian is about as sweet as they come, and I couldn't stand 6 seconds of her crying when she's hungry, let alone 6 weeks!? That baby must have been shrieking incessantly. How on earth did they keep from going insane?

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It's a tragic, totally unnecessary death - but I would't be surprised to find out the parents were that clueless. I've seen, heard and read of people ignorant enough to do such a thing without intent.

According to MRD's link the prosecutor implied that the kid could have survived just fine on a vegan diet, but accused them of deliberately feeding him to little. I'm not a nutrition expert but that reeks of bullox because
1) even if you trippled the meals, it would still be lacking in proteins etc.
2) if you intend to starve someone, why feed him/her anything at all?

I'd say there are two possibilities here:

A) the parents were determined to feed him only vegan food, consciously accepting the chance that he would starve (but not "wanting" it)
B) the parents honestly, foolishly believed that a vegan diet would be sufficient

If I were a jury member and was convinced that A) was true, I'd have no trouble letting them rot in jail. I'm not a jury member though, all I know comes from 2 news articles and I'm not willing to dismiss possibility B). It would still be completely irresponsible and prison-worthy, but it wouldn't be murder.

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Originally Posted by Grey_Fox

I'm just wondering how they thought a 3 1/2 pound baby was normal. And the fact that they ignored the big label on the soy milk container - NOT A SUBSTITUTE FOR BABY FORMULA.

And why didn't they try breastfeeding? Or is that against veganism?

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Breastfeeding would have more then likely killed the mother then. Without protien in their diets or protien suppliments the mother would have slowly starved.

This is a moronic crime, I hope they enjoy the vegan diets in jail.

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Originally Posted by BigTex

Breastfeeding would have more then likely killed the mother then. Without protien in their diets or protien suppliments the mother would have slowly starved.

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Not true. My cousin is a strict (annoying/militant) vegan. She breastfed both of her children and remained very healthy. What's more, her two kids have never consumed anything that came from an animal (other than from mom) and they too are very healthy. I don't know where everyone is getting this idea that you can only get protein from meat. It takes more work and knowledge of food, but a person can be very healthy on a vegan diet. You just might not have any friends because they are all so sick of you trying to make them feel guilty all the time...

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Originally Posted by BigTex

This is a moronic crime, I hope they enjoy the vegan diets in jail.

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True.

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Originally Posted by Goofball

Not true. My cousin is a strict (annoying/militant) vegan. She breastfed both of her children and remained very healthy. What's more, her two kids have never consumed anything that came from an animal (other than from mom) and they too are very healthy. I don't know where everyone is getting this idea that you can only get protein from meat. It takes more work and knowledge of food, but a person can be very healthy on a vegan diet. You just might not have any friends because they are all so sick of you trying to make them feel guilty all the time...

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Not saying that you can't get protien off of a vegan diet. I'm saying these people are clueless about what they need to eat and probably wouldnt have. If you notice their responses to the protien suppliment and vitamin suppliment questions they were clueless. Nice cheap shot though, gotta admit it though, I have very few vegetarian friends and not one is a strict vegan. The allure of good Texas Barbeque (not grilled, barbeque) is just to great.

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Originally Posted by BigTex

Not saying that you can't get protien off of a vegan diet. I'm saying these people are clueless about what they need to eat and probably wouldnt have. If you notice their responses to the protien suppliment and vitamin suppliment questions they were clueless. Nice cheap shot though, gotta admit it though, I have very few vegetarian friends and not one is a strict vegan. The allure of good Texas Barbeque (not grilled, barbeque) is just to great.

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Sorry, I wasn't trying to take a shot at you. I was saying that the inherent risk in being a vegan is that people get sick of hearing you preach.

Pretty much every time my cousin opens her mouth my entire family goes ~:rolleyes: .

Well, they named the kid 'Crown,' so they had a history of cruelty to children already. Perhaps the jury then thought it the most likely reason for the starvation as well, in spite of all the evidence for cerebral malfunction.

Ajax

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Breastfeeding would have more then likely killed the mother then. Without protien in their diets or protien suppliments the mother would have slowly starved.

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If you had severe enough protein malnutrition for this to be the case, you'd be in pretty serious trouble anyway. Enough that you'd notice and do something about it. Plus, as Goofball says, it's not very likely since you can get plenty of protein from cereals and beans.

Did you say beans?

In England a judge can direct a jury to acquit if there is clearly no case to answer, which would seem to be the case here - prima facie there is no case to answer. Is this not the case in the US?

If her diet was not sufficient to breast feed then it is unlikely that she would continue to menstruate and would not conceive. Of course she could have become pregnant and then become a vegan.

This is why we need to stop global warming by birth control so people can have decent beefs and milk products without risking to destroy the planet. Humans are omnivores, not herbivores.

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Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix

Humans are omnivores, not herbivores.

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Reminds me of a convo I had with a vegan. She declared that we were all meant to be vegans, that we have never evolved to eat meat. She was quite serious. I told her to open her mouth and look in a mirror. "You have incisors and canines. No herbivore has them. Get real."

People get funny about food. Vegans are bad, but certainly not alone in being oddballs.

Lemur I wouldn't say Vegans are bad. They're a bit silly at times, but as long as they don't force their diets on other people or harm other people while sticking to their diets, like in this story for instance, their veganness really isn't a problem. I have a really good friend who is a vegan and because of her when we buy food for a party or something we have to keep in mind to pick up some vegan food, but if she stops by and we haven't gone shopping especially for her appearance she's stuck eating a peanut butter sandwich or something.

As long as vegans don't preach too much or do anything like this they're perfectly harmless and generally pretty nice people. Though I'm from Vermont so maybe my perspective is a bit different than most people's...

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Originally Posted by InsaneApache

Anyway she 'rescued' a dog from the pound and then only fed it veggies, just as you would with an omni/carnivore. He died as well. He was called Batley.

Absolute nutcase. :wall:

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Reminds me of a friend of the al Ghul's who couldn't decide whether she was a vegetarian, vegan or normal. Most of the time she was a vergetarian because it's hip and makes you special, sometimes she would even claim that she was a vegan (loved leather shoes nonetheless) and when she was at our house she would check the fridge for salami.
Anyway, she had this big dog, size of a retriever but black/ brown fur. The poor creature got stripes of dried algae to chew on and those horrible dry pellets. She refused to give it anything that may smell bad or is disgusting for her to touch.
Sometimes she left the dog with us to take care of it for a day or two. It always made her suspicious as to why the dog was in ecstasy when left with us and didn't even follow her to the door when she left.
I guess it must've had something to do with those large smoked pork chops with bone in it that we gave her (the dog), among other dog delicatessen. I'll never forget how happy she looked at us after finishing it in a frenzy, smacking her lips for half an hour as if she wanted to say "Now that's what I call decent dog food".
She (the dog) had a rather short life but she was a very good natured dog and it always made us sad to see that it's not treated right.


(Sorry, for mixing up pronouns)

R'as

So this is a chick thing?

The brain needs protien to develop properly. Modern domesticated dogs are believed to have been "dumbed down" by eating the trash primitive humans left behind, after they finished off the meat, making them better companions.

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Originally Posted by Vladimir

Modern domesticated dogs are believed to have been "dumbed down" by eating the trash primitive humans left behind, after they finished off the meat, making them better companions.

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Is that the reasoning put forward to dance around the evolutionary pressure on dogs once they started staying near us? Argh, Vladimir, you're just begging for a separate thread here ...

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Originally Posted by Lemur

Is that the reasoning put forward to dance around the evolutionary pressure on dogs once they started staying near us? Argh, Vladimir, you're just begging for a separate thread here ...

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Sure. Threads on evolution and religion are aaaaalllllllways welcome in the backroom. :devil: :yes: