Illegal immigrants deserve citizenship...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6631193.stm

I also just watched a news report on tv to complement this also.

Self confessed law-breakers have the temerity to actually protest on the street and demand! that their rights be respected & they deserve citizenship...

Not surprisingly- Im shocked and appauled at this turn of events...apprently breaking the law for 4 years isnt that much of a problem anymore!

Only in Britain eh? Where you can stand proudly in the center of London and declare 'I have no respect for British law...now give me more stuff' :no: And be convinced that you deserve a reward for your ciminal behaviour...

Aside from the barely comprehendable front these people have to demand anything I am firmly of the opinion that any move such as an amnesty would only further encourage illegal behaviour and furthermore devalues the native workers worth.

Opinions on this?

Oh and one other thing- shouldnt every one of these protesters have been arrested on the spot? They are after all self confessed criminals.

If I stand in the middle of trafalgar square and punch people in the face I would get arrested- and rightly so. Yet you can stand there and proclaim how you have abused the British state, its laws and the British people for at least 4 years and fear no reprocussions...good to know...

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Only in Britain eh? Where you can stand proudly in the center of London and declare 'I have no respect for British law...now give me more stuff' And be convinced that you deserve a reward for your ciminal behaviour...

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Only in Britain?

This is HUGE in the U.S.

HUGE!!!

Glad to see how well all sides are handling this situation. Everywhere. Everyone. So cheerful.

"Campaigners want illegal migrants in the UK for more than four years be given two-year work permits, without a right to benefits, potentially paving the way for future citizenship."

Not sure how useful such a permit would be if there were no citizenship at the end of it. Why would an illegal immigrant register for a permit when to do so will notify the authorities of their existence?

Of course some might say that the only difference between a legal and illegal immigrant who has been here for four years is that the former pays taxes and the latter does not.

There's more than just taxes. By entering the country and working under false pretenses, the illegal immigrants are 1) adding to the crime rate 2) demonstrating a willingness to do so to achieve their ends in the future and 3) placing themselves in an incredibly vulnerable position with regards to being the victims of crimes. How can the police help an assault victim if he can't give his real name, address or his whereabouts at the time of the attack?

To say that illegal immigrants deserve citizenship is to say that your legal system has neither any merit, nor ability to be enforced and should be abolished immediately. It's also a big fat kick in the tush to legal immigrants.

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

There's more than just taxes. By entering the country and working under false pretenses, the illegal immigrants are 1) adding to the crime rate 2) demonstrating a willingness to do so to achieve their ends in the future and 3) placing themselves in an incredibly vulnerable position with regards to being the victims of crimes. How can the police help an assault victim if he can't give his real name, address or his whereabouts at the time of the attack?

To say that illegal immigrants deserve citizenship is to say that your legal system has neither any merit, nor ability to be enforced and should be abolished immediately. It's also a big fat kick in the tush to legal immigrants.

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Quite so, especially the first sentence of your second paragraph.

I do, however, fail to see why "legalised" immigrants should be any less of an affront to legal immigrants than they were when they were illegal.

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Only in Britain eh? Where you can stand proudly in the center of London and declare 'I have no respect for British law...now give me more stuff' And be convinced that you deserve a reward for your ciminal behaviour...

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My friend, until you have some ten millions of people living illegally in your country, you won't know what it's like.

A year ago, 100,000 people marched in LA to support amnesty for illegals. This year, only about 1,000 did. The fed has actually begun large deportations of people, and they are afraid! It is good that the law makes criminals afraid of the government.

And amnesty will only control more illegal immigration. Don't ever let anyone tell you different.

CR

They're not. "Legalised" immigrants would be the greatest affront of all. Not only are you, as a society, willing to turn a blind eye to those who break the law that these legal immigrants struggled to uphold, you're then rewarding the law-breakers by giving them 'law-abiding' status. If the UK or the USA or any other immigrant haven for that matter starts granting amnesty-like recognition of illegal immigrants, they would have no credible question as to why the numbers of illegal immigrants ballon.

Hmm, I can wait in line at the embassy for 3 days, fill out reams of applications, pay fees, pay my own way, register my address upon arrival, pay taxes on everything I earn and continue to give up my free time to schedule meetings with the immigration bureau so they can 'check in' the entire time. Or, I can just show up, take all the essential services I need and not pay a nickel in taxes. When I need something, I can just game the system again. After I've been here for a little while, I'll just demand citizenship, after all they, gave it to all those guys a few months back. :idea2:

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

My friend, until you have some ten millions of people living illegally in your country, you won't know what it's like.

A year ago, 100,000 people marched in LA to support amnesty for illegals. This year, only about 1,000 did. The fed has actually begun large deportations of people, and they are afraid! It is good that the law makes criminals afraid of the government.

And amnesty will only control more illegal immigration. Don't ever let anyone tell you different.

CR

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I have to admit, I did forget the mexican revolving door on the US borders.

Were the 100,000 protesters mostly/all actual illegal immigrants or legal immigrants/US citizens who supported the amnesty or some combination thereof?

Can't say I know - noone ever asked for citizenship proof or anything from all them.

CR

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Originally Posted by Don Corleone

Hmm, I can wait in line at the embassy for 3 days, fill out reams of applications, pay fees, pay my own way, register my address upon arrival, pay taxes on everything I earn and continue to give up my free time to schedule meetings with the immigration bureau so they can 'check in' the entire time. Or, I can just show up, take all the essential services I need and not pay a nickel in taxes. When I need something, I can just game the system again. After I've been here for a little while, I'll just demand citizenship, after all they, gave it to all those guys a few months back.

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The only problem with that is in regards to Mexicans and other south central american people is we have a near complete stop on legal immigration. Nearly the only way for a mexican to get into the country legally is to have family here who are citizens or marry a citizen. Doesnt excuse illegal entry at all, as it is the cuase of the near ban on immigration, but we do need to allow more immigration legally from mexico and take an even harder stance on those illegally getting here.

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Originally Posted by lancelot

I have to admit, I did forget the mexican revolving door on the US borders.

Were the 100,000 protesters mostly/all actual illegal immigrants or legal immigrants/US citizens who supported the amnesty or some combination thereof?

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There was no one actually proclaiming all of them were illegal. But most of the chants there and speaches were in spainish......:juggle2:

Luckily the new president of Mexico looks like he could be promising. Might even help stop the illegal immigration, seems to be doing a good job with the drug cartels. So long as he isnt assasinated.

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If the UK or the USA or any other immigrant haven for that matter starts granting amnesty-like recognition of illegal immigrants, they would have no credible question as to why the numbers of illegal immigrants ballon.

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Reagans biggest mistake.

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Originally Posted by BigTex

The only problem with that is in regards to Mexicans and other south central american people is we have a near complete stop on legal immigration. Nearly the only way for a mexican to get into the country legally is to have family here who are citizens or marry a citizen. Doesnt excuse illegal entry at all, as it is the cuase of the near ban on immigration, but we do need to allow more immigration legally from mexico and take an even harder stance on those illegally getting here.

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Meh. This may not be that popular of an opinion, but I am in favor of cutting back on immigration allowances, and for setting some standards. Hell, if you look at the Canadian immigration site, you have to be sponsored, have a certain net worth of something like $10,000 (or 20k, forget), and demonstrate that you have some trade or skill that you will use to gain employment on admittance. I am completely in favor of this. It may be worth noting that I am by and large of the same school of thought as Odin, in that I am in favor of the US becoming more isolationist (but not completely so).

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There was no one actually proclaiming all of them were illegal. But most of the chants there and speaches were in spainish......:juggle2:

Luckily the new president of Mexico looks like he could be promising. Might even help stop the illegal immigration, seems to be doing a good job with the drug cartels. So long as he isnt assasinated.

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Yet another unpopular opinion. I think it's high time we make English the official language of our nation. Hell I'd even go as far as to say that all citizens should be forced to know it. Look at the Netherlands, it's a requirement that you have basic proficiency before you can become a citizen. Sounds like the right idea to me.

As for the amnesty, I'm completely, utterly, totally against it. Legal immigrants are doing the right thing and becoming full citizens with all the rights and DUTIES thereof, including the payment of taxes and other obligations. Illegal immigrants by and large take away far more from the economy than they give back. Sign the papers, PAY YOUR DUES AND TAXES LIKE THE REST OF US, or leave. Plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Reagans biggest mistake.

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Beats "Stars Wars Defense" by a mere fart and a smile.

Just a note: illegal immigrants pay taxes -- when they buy things at 7/11 they don't get some tax exempt magic discount. They just don't pay income taxes.

Which, of course, is the largest source of federal income. Come to think of it, since they usually work way below minimum wage anyway I suspect when the IRS craptaculexor (invented word) calculations are said done they won't be paying any real income taxes anyway legal or illegal. It is after all a progressive tax system. :laugh4:

Also, there are criminals and there are criminals, if you get my meaning. Let's deal with the criminals first then deal with the other criminals, perhaps fairer this time and less troublesome as the criminals are already out of the picture. :yes:

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Originally Posted by Gawain of Orkeny

Reagans biggest mistake.

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Personally I think the Iran-Contra affair is far worse. One is a policy disagreement and another scumbaggery.

Illegal immigrants deserve to queue up at the nearest INS office and proceed through the proper application process. If they have extended their stay, they go to the back of the line, behind those that have followed the rules. There should be no reward for breaking the law, if the immigration laws are unworkable/unjust then change them. Employers that have knowingly hired illegal immigrants; large fines are in order. To all those that obey the laws and proceed to become citizens, welcome.~:wave:

To think we have the right to deny someone the liberty and freedom of choosing where to make their living is the height of arrogance. As a reformed neo-con, Ive been on both sides of the fence so to speak on this issue. Regardless, America, at least, was founded on liberty, freedom, and self-determination. Before the recent halt on immigration, all you had to do to become an American citizen was show up on the boat and say you wanted to be one. Where that changed, I don't know.

The main groups funding this national propaganda and paranoia of immigration are some of the same groups who funded Nazi propaganda in the 1930s.

Defending our property is one of the hallmarks of the U.S. constitution. Preventing soldiers quartering in their houses. Right to arms.

Those rights are some of the 10 rights guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution, and those rights and laws prevent anyone from taking what is ours. By saying we are denying them liberty and freedom of choice, it is a twisting of words. Everyone is entitled to choose what they want, what to do, where to go.

However, I could choose to rob a bank tomorrow. I could choose to do so, and I'm American, so I'm free to choose what I want to do. So I rob the bank. I'm a free man, I can rob a bank. By the amnesty argument, the judge shouldn't punish me, he should give me a janitor job at the bank for 2 years, and if I want to siphon out some money once in a while, go ahead, you can choose what to do, your a free man. :2thumbsup:

Coming over in a boat is not like going over the border. Once you get into the U.S.A. your there. On the Mexican border, I could skip across if I wanted to, both ways, and not get caught.

20/20 Hindsight is pretty good, isn't it. When the Nazi propaganda was being toted by Hitler, Eugenics was a recognized science (even though they had NO CONCEPT of genes or DNA). While I DO NOT SUPPORT Nazi efforts, at the time it was a reasonable and acceptable conclusion, based on a 'science'.

I think that there should be a reform of the immigration procedure, not for amnesty, but so that application is easier, and more streamlined so that they can register and be an American citizen without all the paperwork.

I would like to also ask about the 'crime' rates before and after Illegal Immigration. I think it's a good conclusion, but is there definitive evidence that crime rates have gone up after an influx of illegal immigration?

As to the thread title, it strikes me that illegal immigrants already have citizenship.....just not in the place they've gone to illegally.

Zak'

You do realize that following your rubric to its ultimate conclusion would mean that any person on the planet would have the right to come here and work whenever they so chose. Giving living conditions in many parts of the world, our population would exceed that of China in a couple of decades.

We were a nation of virtually open immigration as long as we had a frontier -- read Amerind territory they were to weak to hold -- into which we could expand and exploit more resources. When the frontier closed, immigration restrictions were almost immediate.

You should take a leaf out of our book, we have really strict laws on illegal immigrants. Or you could do what South Africa used to do, deport them to their country of origin.

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Originally Posted by Rythmic

You should take a leaf out of our book, we have really strict laws on illegal immigrants. Or you could do what South Africa used to do, deport them to their country of origin.

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The trouble is- when Australia or Canada does this it is called a well crafted immigration policy- they are not afraid to put australians first, if the same thing was tried in the UK it would immediately be labelled 'racism'...mark my words. Which is why the government is too pussy to actually take a tough line.

Besides, I actually think this is part of a wider conspiracy..well, perhaps conspiracy isnt the right word- plan perhaps.

I think this government LOVES immigration. Given how our daily economy is run- everything is expensive, we work all the live long day, our national services are a joke etc it appears the government couldnt manage a group of hyped up chimps. The gov cant afford to care for us properly- so it makes cuts anywhere it can...

A good place to start- immigration. Why go to the expense of education, healthcare etc etc for 18 years for a national when you can just import a boatload of immigrants at 18 years of age?

yes, anyone should be able to come and live and work here. there is plenty of land in the united states, and plenty of work. what is the problem with amnesty? they're already here, and if granted citizenship they would no longer be 'illegal', plus would start paying income taxes.

Did anyone in the UK hear 'Nutty' Hazel Blears on the radio last week? When challenged about unregulated immigration and the effect it has on the country, especially the south-east, she said this;

"Of course Britain isn't full up, we have lots of green fields".

Granted she's from Salford and has probably only seen green fields away in the distance on the Pennine hills, or through the window of her official car, but this is patent nonsense.

Unless she was advocating people should live in fields, I read it that the government does have an immigration policy. The policy is more, more and then some more. Regardless of the infrastructure, schools, hospitals, sewerage treatment etc etc. that would need to be built to serve all these 'workers'.

She talked down to the listeners, as though they were morons. All she demonstrated was that it was actually her who was the moron.

An odious little woman.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

yes, anyone should be able to come and live and work here. there is plenty of land in the united states, and plenty of work. what is the problem with amnesty? they're already here, and if granted citizenship they would no longer be 'illegal', plus would start paying income taxes.

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The plently of land theory does not hold up when one begins to look at where the illegal labor pull settles in order to find jobs. Legal immigrants can buy land - illegal immigrants have to resort to criminal activity to buy land.

I am also open to allowing more legal immigrantion and work visa to those who come from countries south of the border - however we are suppose to be a nation of laws, something that while we stumble one at times, as a nation we still maintain that system.

Ammensty has been tried several times. Has not worked yet because of one simple fact. The immigrantion policy after the amensty is not enforced. Ergo you make the population happy with the amensty but you don't solve the problem.

By the way which border state do you live in? Have you ever taken a look at how the Mexician Government operates along the border?

Open immigrantion is a valid dream, but without some type of control system you will have an influx that creates more problems then it solves.

Ive been stationed in Arizona three times and served with the US Border Patrol on three campaigns, but I do not live therein. Criminal elements will always operate along borders, its the same here in the United States or in Afghanistan or Iraq. Seams are where dissaffected elements gather, its almost like a law of nature. That is no reason to punish the thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families and WANT to work, pay taxes, and contribute to society. Perhaps if you lived in the abject poverty of northern Mexico or moreso in Central America you'd be more willing to allow these people a chance at the life most of us were born into from no virtue of our own.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

yes, anyone should be able to come and live and work here. there is plenty of land in the united states, and plenty of work. what is the problem with amnesty? they're already here, and if granted citizenship they would no longer be 'illegal', plus would start paying income taxes.

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If granted amnesty and citizenship they would no longer be illegal, true, and they would start paying taxes to the same manner/extent that is the "norm" for whatever class of job they hold and economic level they achieve.

Do you realize the full impact of a completely open border and policy of unrestricted immigration?

They would also start to receive the full measure of social services accorded to every citizen of this country. Mexico would become a prosperous nation as their entire underclass migrated North. Even given the influx of new workers to prop up the social security system -- and I'll stipulate that more workers would let the current system continue its Ponzi efforts for far longer -- the end result must be increased strain on infrastructure of all kinds along with social services, notably the health system. This must necessitate an increase in taxes -- not likely to be popular with anyone currently paying them.

The "economic gap" between rich and poor in the USA would become even wider as an influx of workers allowed companies to reduce wages and wage growth. This would, eventually, translate into economic growth, but there would be a significant lag-time between the expansion of profitability and wealth among corporations and key stockholders and the increase of economic benefit for the "lower" echelons.

...and, my friend, this is just the tip of the iceberg, shorn of all of the cultural and political implications. Think long and hard.....

SO you're basically saying its alright to deny people the freedom of choice where to live and work because white anglo-caucasians will become the minority, and possibly be paid less for 5-10 years?

Cultural and political shifts are the way of the world. I'm simply playing devil's advocate here, I realize all of the implications. But the United States cannot claim to be a nation of liberty and justice for all while denying people their freedoms of choice. Maintaining the status quo is hard and complicated but worth it, in the view of the businessmen who run our government.

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"Of course Britain isn't full up, we have lots of green fields".

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Well, its nice to know we have an immigration policy. Its slightly disappointing that the policy is that anyone who wants to can live here sio long as there is one green field left to bulldoze for housing, though.

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But the United States cannot claim to be a nation of liberty and justice for all while denying people their freedoms of choice.

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Why can't it? Why is it legitimate for an immigrant to come and live in another country, because he wants a better standard of living for himself, but not legitimate for someone who lives in that country to oppose the arrival of the immigrant, because he fears that will lead to a worse standard of living for himself?

Morally they seem to be exactly the same to me; both want the best for themselves.

Personally, I would like to hand on to my children the same that was handed on to me by my parents, a roughly 1 in 60 million share in a stable middle ranking liberal parliamentary democracy. I am not enormously worried if the country is a bit darker skinned when I leave than it was when I arrived. But I do NOT want to hand on a 1 in 80 million share in a deeply divided country where all the green fields have been built on and where various bitterly opposed factions espouse sharia, worship of the FSM, or any other such nonsense.

Accordingly I am in favour of sensible immigration controls.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

SO you're basically saying its alright to deny people the freedom of choice where to live and work because white anglo-caucasians will become the minority, and possibly be paid less for 5-10 years?

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Nobody made mention of race until you brought it up. While we're talking about racism, what's so special about Latinos? As long as we're talking about giving everyone the world over their choice of destination, why should we be so selective against the African and the Asian? Let's go to Bangladesh, Niger, Cambodia, Romania, everywhere in the world... anybody that wants to come to the USA, let's bring them here. And let's put them all up at your house.

I'm not racist, I just don't believe that "we" as anglo-cacuasian American majority have the right to determine the culture of the place we choose to live in. America's history is full of cultural assimilation and absortion and mutation of the popular culture as a result. Today is no different, but the conservative-far right would have you believe our nation is at the greatest risk its ever faced before the so called "brown tide" oversweeps it. I totally agree, anyone, from anywhere in the world, should have the abilility to make a better life for themselves and their family and come to the United States if they choose.

Remember the "give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses, etc"? it doesnt say, "give me your richest".

Zak, I suggest you pull out your history book and review how immigration actually has been treated in American history. "White" Irish, Germans, Italians and Jews were all forced to live in enclaves and were refused even basic protections of law. Even newly arrived English settlers were discriminated against in comparison to natively born Americans during colonial times. Go read about the "Know-Nothings". Read about the original enemies of the Klan. Then maybe we can have a rational discussion.

This isn't a racial discussion, and I don't know why you're making it about 'white-versus-brown'. It's a question of law and economic stability. As I said, you're being inconsistent in that you seem to be favoring brown over black or yellow. Why not bring every last person on the planet that wants to come to the USA here? And in fact, let's put them all at your house.

And by the way, there is one significant difference in the current Mexican/Yucatan immigration flow and other major immigration trends in American history.

Without exception, prior to the Mexican/Yucatan immigration stream of the past 30 years, all major streams of immigrants into this country have followed a definitive pattern:

-Immigrants arrive (legally or illegally) with a sense of permanent relocation.
-They quickly settle into enclaves and get jobs.
-They attempt to assimilate into society by sending their children to school.
-Where they can, they attempt to learn English and the rules of society.
-Eventually, as they progress economically, they move out of the enclaves and join into the integrated society.

I would argue that there are actually two immigration flows coming from Mexico/Yucatan right now. One, the smaller of the two, actually follows the traditional immigration pattern I list above (which would have much less resistance, for the record).

But there is a large influx of immigrants coming to this country that follows a new and unique pattern:

-They arrive with a transitory view of living here.
-They view the United States as an economic opportunity, not a new country of residence.
-They do not attempt to learn the language. They do not encourage their children to learn the language. If they get educated at all, they force 'Spanish-education' programs on our public school systems.
- They do not pay taxes, but they do consume public services. Frequently, they travel from Mexico to the USA specifically to receive these services (get an operation, then return to Mexico to convalesce).
-Any sense of political union comes in the form of last year's mass demonstrations, with this business of Azatlan, where they claim that anyplace they have a large spanish-speaking enclave should be politically separated from the USA and joined to Mexico.

Comparing the two trends, and I've already allowed that large number of Mexican immigrants do follow the first pattern, it's fairly obvious that the second trend presents a pervasive threat to the security, cohesiveness and economic stability of our country and must be addressed.

Zaknafian, I apologize for saying that your views are racist and bigoted. It was uncalled for, and wrong. My arguments are strong enough that I don't need to resort to accusations and personal attacks. You are of course entitled to hold your views without concern of being villified by me for having them, and I do truly know better.

I would suggest that perhaps you examine the consequences of your views on an open border policy on the global scale, as I believe it is inconsistent to offer such an immigration policy to the immigrants of only one region, when there are many more around the globe that are desirous of an opportunity to live and work within the United States.

In short, I'm sorry for the inappropriate language in my first two posts and it won't happen again. :bow:

I second the Don's series of points.

Those who wish to immigrate legally and join our n/ationculture -- fine. A little healthy change is a good thing and we will be the stronger for it.

Those who do so illegally should be returned so that they may start over following a legitimate path.

Those who simply seek economic advantage with no intention of joining this nation can try somewhere else.

Something else I'd like to throw in here that I've seen alluded to in other posts.

The old saying of "Give me your poor, your tired, ..." etc, those days are long gone. The world's changed, America has changed, The Wild West has long since been populated and claimed. The other thing that I think people are missing out on is the overall mindset of our great-great grandmothers and fathers. People coming over HAD to find work, they were all looking for work, because if you didn't get a job you starved and died. There weren't systems and organizations in place that there are now that one can leech off of. Before anyone jumps this about prejudice, I'm not saying that all people come here just to get on welfare, HOWEVER I have read credible sources which indicate that a good deal of them do. Why work, when you can come here, get on welfare, and living 10-100x better without working at all than you were back in whatever place or nation it was you came from.

The other problem I have is what Don outlined. When you come here, you become an American. I went to college with a guy who was from the "Little Italy" part of Chicago, I'm talking full accent, fully fluent in Italian, etc. Mob associations unknown. :grin: The point is, though he and his family self identified with their italian roots and culture, they thought of themselves first and foremost as Americans. They spoke Italian at home, but English everywhere else. They retained all of the great quirks from their Italian cultural heritage, but were Americans also through and through. This to me represents the ideal image of what it means to be a diverse melting pot of cultures, but one as a nation and people.

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Originally Posted by English assassin

Personally, I would like to hand on to my children the same that was handed on to me by my parents, a roughly 1 in 60 million share in a stable middle ranking liberal parliamentary democracy. I am not enormously worried if the country is a bit darker skinned when I leave than it was when I arrived. But I do NOT want to hand on a 1 in 80 million share in a deeply divided country where all the green fields have been built on and where various bitterly opposed factions espouse sharia, worship of the FSM, or any other such nonsense.

Accordingly I am in favour of sensible immigration controls.

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Well said. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by English assassin
Personally, I would like to hand on to my children the same that was handed on to me by my parents, a roughly 1 in 60 million share in a stable middle ranking liberal parliamentary democracy. I am not enormously worried if the country is a bit darker skinned when I leave than it was when I arrived. But I do NOT want to hand on a 1 in 80 million share in a deeply divided country where all the green fields have been built on and where various bitterly opposed factions espouse sharia, worship of the FSM, or any other such nonsense.

Accordingly I am in favour of sensible immigration controls.

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agreed.

Right. It's not like I disagree with people sayin' illegal immigration is creating problems in the USA and something must be done about it but...

Please, please, please, please don't bring up the old Welfare Leechers argument again! What percentage of illegal immigrants leech welfare and spend time playing Playstation 3 at home and what percentage work their very butts off the strawberry fields of California? How many look like they come right out of the Grapes of Wrath and how many are driving in brand-new Toyotas? I really really hate it when people bring up this whole outrage-mongering ordeal against immigrants/Mexicans/poor people/communists/everybody all the time.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

That is no reason to punish the thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families and WANT to work, pay taxes, and contribute to society. Perhaps if you lived in the abject poverty of northern Mexico or moreso in Central America you'd be more willing to allow these people a chance at the life most of us were born into from no virtue of our own.

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I would very much like to welcome these thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families into our country. One problem is that with so much illegal immigration taking place, the government's plan to combat it has included making legal immigration from Latin America ridiculously difficult. We need legal channels to allow immigrants into the nation, and we need to reduce illegal immigration by draconian measures against those who employ illegals and benefit from their labor.

Ajax

I live in San Antonio Texas. I've lived here my entire life. I can say this without batting an eyelash. The working/middle class Mexicans (even the ones with questionable papers) assamilate much quciker than the ones with money or the poorest. About half the Mexicans I know speak as much or less spainish than I do and about 85% raley speak it all. The problem is the richest and the poorest not the 80% in between. Granted I have a different veiwpoint as the Mexicans here dont have any enclaves as they are 60% of the citites population but Don is wrong. Illegals are a huge problem for the economy and they also take up much needed land. Also some of the most assimalted mexicans I know come from the "valley" which is 90% Mexican (Eagle Pass and Laradeo are exceptions but the drugs have a vice grip on those towns). The point is this. Many of you are dealing with 1st generation immagrants Im am dealing mostly with 2nd 3rd 4th gneneration ones (hell I know some whose familes were in Texas long before yours trulies) They will assimalte. I also think California is different than Texas. In Cali there seem to be those people who like to help illegals and like to promote seprate institutions. in Texas we dont have those people:smash:

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Originally Posted by ajaxfetish

I would very much like to welcome these thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families into our country. One problem is that with so much illegal immigration taking place, the government's plan to combat it has included making legal immigration from Latin America ridiculously difficult. We need legal channels to allow immigrants into the nation, and we need to reduce illegal immigration by draconian measures against those who employ illegals and benefit from their labor.

Ajax

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Concur.

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Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit

Can't say I know - noone ever asked for citizenship proof or anything from all them.

CR

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That was always a point of great comedy for me. Thousands of people marching against any measure that would impair people breaking the law (illegal immigrants). These people also look a lot like those sneaking across the border, not to mention that they wave the Mexican flag. I guess asking these people their legal status would've been racial or...flag..profiling. All I know is that law enforcement could secure their arrest records if they just watched CNN, they show you where the criminals are.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Right. It's not like I disagree with people sayin' illegal immigration is creating problems in the USA and something must be done about it but...

Please, please, please, please don't bring up the old Welfare Leechers argument again! What percentage of illegal immigrants leech welfare and spend time playing Playstation 3 at home and what percentage work their very butts off the strawberry fields of California? How many look like they come right out of the Grapes of Wrath and how many are driving in brand-new Toyotas? I really really hate it when people bring up this whole outrage-mongering ordeal against immigrants/Mexicans/poor people/communists/everybody all the time.

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Since you specifically asked for it not to be brought up, I'll go ahead and bring it up:

I don't care how hard they work and how much they consume resulting in sales tax revenue..... if they aren't paying income taxes (which they arent if they are illegal) and if they aren't paying medicaid (which they arent if they are here illegally) and if they arent paying into social security (which they arent if they are here illegally) then they have absolutley no freaking right to benefit from the social services provided in the form of foodstamps, medical care, WIC, police and fire protection and a free public education complete with free lunch.

Illegals don't pay taxes. They pay some taxes. I don't care if they are mexicans, the russian mob, or the three illegals who just tried to shoot up ft dix, they don't pay taxes the can ***** off.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

Ive been stationed in Arizona three times and served with the US Border Patrol on three campaigns, but I do not live therein. Criminal elements will always operate along borders, its the same here in the United States or in Afghanistan or Iraq. Seams are where dissaffected elements gather, its almost like a law of nature. That is no reason to punish the thousands of law-abiding people who simply want a better life for their families and WANT to work, pay taxes, and contribute to society. Perhaps if you lived in the abject poverty of northern Mexico or moreso in Central America you'd be more willing to allow these people a chance at the life most of us were born into from no virtue of our own.

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Take a good hard look at the economic stability of the four main border states. Take a good hard look at the economic stability of the medical systems for those four states. Then think about your bolded statement - since I welcome legal immigrantion and even support increased immigrantion from the southern borders. However I do not support illegal immigrantion for numerous reasons - one being the group of criminals that operate on the border that are highly involved in all sorts of illegal activities. MS-13.

And it seems in your attempt to defend your postion you have attempted a strawman arguement. I have never stated that I am against immigrantion especially those who wish to better their lives and become american citizens.

It seems that when one begins to discover that their arguement is full of holes and falacies they resort to emotional appeal. I fnd it funny that you attack a postion that I have not taken.

Again have you taken a serious look at how the Mexician Government operates along the border?

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Illegals don't pay taxes. They pay some taxes.

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:inquisitive:

And if you really want to bring it up how about that little point I mentioned earlier: when you really compare their average earnings with the Federal Income Tax level -- the whole IRS thing is progressive, no? -- they really won't be paying crap anyway legal or illegal. What? A hundred dollars a year at best?

The whole "they're stealing **** from us while sitting in their happy little enclaves speaking Spanish (affront)" is just plain outrage-mongering, which I often find, in many cases, to be sort of racist inside as well. Not that I'm saying you are, or most people who try to stop illegal immigration is.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

:inquisitive:

And if you really want to bring it up how about that little point I mentioned earlier: when you really compare their average earnings with the Federal Income Tax level -- the whole IRS thing is progressive, no? -- they really won't be paying crap anyway legal or illegal. What? A hundred dollars a year at best?

The whole "they're stealing **** from us while sitting in their happy little enclaves speaking Spanish (affront)" is just plain outrage-mongering, which I often find, in many cases, to be sort of racist inside as well. Not that I'm saying you are, or most people who try to stop illegal immigration is.

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Your actually only partially correct. Social Security and Medicare are paid into the system regardless of your total income. Social Security payments is roughly 7% of your pay regardless of your income up to I believe about $100,000 which you are no longer taxed on that income.

Medicare is about 2.5% again paid regardless of your income.

So while you are correct about the IRS income tax you completely left off the other two income taxes that must be paid. Your statement also leaves out the taxes that employer's must pay into the system, which is roughly a matching amount for Medicare and Social Security, (I don't remember the IRS Payroll Tax amount.) So not only is it the illegal immigrants not paying into the two main social safety nets to support people - employers are also cheating and violating the law.

So if an Illegal immigrant worker makes say $10,000 a year - any income tax paid into the system by him would be returned - however 250 dollars would have been paid into medicare and 700 dollars into social security, with a roughly matching payment of 950 paid by the employer. So when the illegal immigrant goes to the emergancy room for medical treatment - instead of being eligable of medicare and medicaid, and the tax system being able to provide some finicial support to the hospital and the patient for treatment. The illegal has to be treated in the emerancy room, and the hospital eats the cost.

So before claiming others are being racist about wanting immigrants to be in this country legally and paying thier share into the system - you might help if people actually understood the American tax system a little better.

For the record I detest the commericals on TV that promise free Medicare to the elderly for devices that they might or might not need. That to cheats the American Tax payer, and the elderly themselves also.

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Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump

Since you specifically asked for it not to be brought up, I'll go ahead and bring it up:

I don't care how hard they work and how much they consume resulting in sales tax revenue..... if they aren't paying income taxes (which they arent if they are illegal) and if they aren't paying medicaid (which they arent if they are here illegally) and if they arent paying into social security (which they arent if they are here illegally) then they have absolutley no freaking right to benefit from the social services provided in the form of foodstamps, medical care, WIC, police and fire protection and a free public education complete with free lunch.

Illegals don't pay taxes. They pay some taxes. I don't care if they are mexicans, the russian mob, or the three illegals who just tried to shoot up ft dix, they don't pay taxes the can ***** off.

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So if the labour is necessary then allow easier legal immigration.

If the illegal immigration is encouraged by employers in the US then clamp down on those employers.

If illegal immigration brings with it other criminality then easier authorised immigration coupled with decreased economic insentives for illegal immigration would seem to be a reasonable effort at a solution.

Why concentrate on the criminality of illegal immigration when the cause of much of it is criminality within the US border states?

For those who think I didn't explain the tax issue's with illegal immigrant labor. Here is some of the basic law definitions easily found with any internet search. Just type in the words employer payroll taxes, United States.

http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/emp...mployment.html

or you can go to Wikipedia also

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payroll_tax

However I do have a slight correction - Social Security is 6.2% and Medicare is 2.9%.

The matching requirement however is still correct, plus there are some other payroll taxes that are required to be paid by the employer only.

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

:inquisitive:

And if you really want to bring it up how about that little point I mentioned earlier: when you really compare their average earnings with the Federal Income Tax level -- the whole IRS thing is progressive, no? -- they really won't be paying crap anyway legal or illegal. What? A hundred dollars a year at best?

The whole "they're stealing **** from us while sitting in their happy little enclaves speaking Spanish (affront)" is just plain outrage-mongering, which I often find, in many cases, to be sort of racist inside as well. Not that I'm saying you are, or most people who try to stop illegal immigration is.

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You do realize that even if "you aren't paying much income taxes" you still pay the taxes up front, and then get them all refunded at the end of the year. It's the cornerstone of a deficit economy, we are a country that relies on credit on all levels. So yes, many of them would get all their state and federal taxes back, but those taxes would initially go into the coffers to be spent.

And if many of the illegals would pull their heads out of their butts, they just might realize that they would get more back than they paid in if they have kids, thanks to an over generous child tax credit. But they might have to bother learning the language to find that out....

Oh, I also forgot to mention employers don't pay payroll taxes on illegal workers, and account for their missing money as petty cash expenditures or other deductions.

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Originally Posted by Slyspy

So if the labour is necessary then allow easier legal immigration.

If the illegal immigration is encouraged by employers in the US then clamp down on those employers.

If illegal immigration brings with it other criminality then easier authorised immigration coupled with decreased economic insentives for illegal immigration would seem to be a reasonable effort at a solution.

Why concentrate on the criminality of illegal immigration when the cause of much of it is criminality within the US border states?

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It's not so easy to clamp down on the employers when you have half the democratic party and the entire and I do mean entire latino community defending people who employ illegals. The Latino lobby doesn't want immigration reform in any way shape or form, they want amnesty and status quo.

Has it been tried? I mean, really tried?

The AG needs to be told to prosecute mayors and others who serve at publics behest and choose not to enforce existing laws. There are laws on the books to do so, all these "haven" mayors are plainly criminal.