E.B. recruitment/reforms mod

I know that properly speaking this should probably go into the unofical modding projects, but I thought that it would be more likley to be seen if I put it here.

Basicly I am thinking of doing a minimod that will introduce dynamic recruitment reforms for all of the factions in the game. I intened to do this by "downgrading" to the 0.74 concept of troop recruitment being based on goverment type. As building conditionals are no longer possible in 1.5 this will have to be done by level of goverment, requiring mics to be broken on taking a settlement.

Thus, units that would be avalible every where eg akontistai, will have a low factional mic requirment and can thus be recruited in all areas.

I am not planning to touch regional recruitment except prehaps to fill a few gaps if the EB team dosen't in the next release. However I am intending to complety overhall factional recruitment.


Thus an example entry to the edb for a multifactional unit would be:

Unit a is recruitable by faction b in factional mic c
Unit a is recruitable by faction d in regional mic e with hidden resource f

The reforms would be controled by dynamic, scripted reforms, very similar to the Romani reforms already in place, that would expand the areas that type 1 and 2 goverments cover. This would represent the gradual, as it might be "Helenisation" of the empire's core lands, to eventualy become almost indistinguishable from the the origonal heartland. This is in my opinion bettre than the curent system, as then any type 1 or 2 becomes within a couple of years, a very loyal part of the empire. This problem is especialy prevalent for the Romani, in my opinion, Gaul especialy should not be added to the romani's subjugation possibilities untill much later.

Idealy this idea would be expanded to a vast serries of reforms for each faction, so that any no cultural areas will be type 3 and four when you conquer them, but once the race has been subdued then the area will switch to subjugation.

An example of this would be; as the Romani, you whish to conquer Gaul. The people of Gaul, however, being fiercly independent do not whish to join your empire. When you conquer one area, the people remain defiant, hoping for external support, however, once your armies have taken all Gaul, the people will see that there will be no help and calm down under your rule, this process being simulated by the shift from aliances avalible to subjigation avalible.

The reforms would thus be grouped by culture and race, once you have conquered an entire people then they will become avalible for being more closley bound into your empire.

As building conditionals are still possible for buildings, I am intending to force the player to build msc's (military setler colonies) before factional mics can be constructed in anything except type 1 goverments.

I am prety much certain that I will go through with this idea, with the permision of the eb team of course. I was wondering what the EB comunity thought of it therefore. I am intending to start work seriously with the next EB release, which I asume is fairly soon with the request fot beta testers (that I missed to voluenteer for by three minutes~:mecry: ). Untill the release I am just going to experiment and collect any ideas that people have, the more of these the merrier.
:feedback:


P.S. I know that buliding conditionals are screwed for 1.5, anyone know if they are usable again in 1.6?

This sounds very good. but this will be a lot of work. I thought of something similiar, but my Idea was just to let colonys recruit basic troops. But that would only help the carthaginains, as all other factions can only build them in areas where they already have acces to their basic units. But it's good for Carthaginians, after all:laugh4:
But I personally think that recruitment should be ignored until the newest build of EB, because it seems that a lot of things are going to change. But the "alliances available" to "subjugation available" thing sounds pretty neat. It's very historical, by the way, so I don't think the EB team will disagree. Well, we'll see:2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Basileus Seleukeia

But I personally think that recruitment should be ignored until the newest build of EB, because it seems that a lot of things are going to change.

---

Yes, thats exactly why I am going to wait for the next EB build before I do serious work on this.:2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

which I asume is fairly soon with the request fot beta testers

---

don't get your hopes up too much, we had intigrated many new things, but there are stil many other that need to be done/integrated before the relaese.
From the 0.8 betatesting to the relaese almost two months had passed....

Quote:

---

But I personally think that recruitment should be ignored until the newest build of EB, because it seems that a lot of things are going to change.

---

The recruitment system will stay as it is now, only new units will be added to the game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bonny

The recruitment system will stay as it is now, only new units will be added to the game.

---

That's exactly what I meant. :yes:

On thinking things through I have decided to devide the world up into 20 regions, which will give a total of 400 reforms (prehaps 800 if antireforms are included) to be done. This seems a hell of a lot but as it should be fairly simple to duplicate them once the basic pattern is worked out i think it is managable. These regions will be defined by cultural/racial groups whoose population might be lossley called a "People," e.g. Gaul, Italia, Hellas, Asia Minor, Syria, Arabia ect. You may wonder why I am telling you all this before I have even started, but the fact is I am desperatley in need of help from a research point of view (I can handle the actual modding myself) as just about all of my knowledge of this period outside of Hellas comes from EB. Any suggestions therefore from anybody who actualy knows what they are talking about would be great. Realy I am looking for sugestions as to which areas the regions should cover (the actual quantity of regions is open to a certain flexibility)

As a provisonal list I have came up with this (numbering from the north west of the map south easterly direction):

1.Britiania
2.Gaul
3.Iberia
4.Mauraetania (SP.)
5.Germania
6.Italia
7.Carthage
8.Ilyria
9.Baltic coasts
10.Thrakia
11.Hellas
12.Lower Egypt
13.Asia minor
14.Skythia
15.Syria
16.Eastern steppe (someone pleae got a better name for this?)
17.Pahlavia (includeds Hai lands)
18.Persia
19.Bactria
20.India
21.Arabia
22.Upper Egypt


see, I've overshot already:laugh4:, but please, plenty of suggsetions as I realy don't have a clue what I'm talking about here. All I can do is apply common sense and my pitiful background knowledge to the matter.

Right, here is a map I have adapated from the decr_regions:

https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/85...ruitmentg4.jpg

Right, I think I ahve come up with the basic code for an example. This example is for the subjugation of Hellas by the Romanii:

Code:

---

monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
and I_CompareCounter Romanii_11_SubjAvalible = 0
and I_TurnNumber > 1

        if I_SettlementOwner Sparte = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Athena = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlmentOwner Corinthos = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Thermon = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Demetrias = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Pella = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Byzantion = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlentOwner Myteline = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Rhodos = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1

        if I_SettlemntOwner Kydonia = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlemntOwner Ambrakia = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_CompareCounter Romanii_11 = 11
       
                set_counter Romanii_11SubjAvalible 1
                terminate_monitor
        end_if

end_monitor

---

This paticular refrom is known as Romanii_11 because it is for the Romanii, and Hellas is the 11th area on the map.

This still needs to be expanded to place the actual goverment markers, but i think this would be the correct monitor, would it not. I would be gratefull for a profesional opinion here.:feedback:

Little simpler:

Code:

---

monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType seleucid
and I_CompareCounter Romanii_11_SubjAvalible = 0
and I_TurnNumber > 1

if I_SettlementOwner Sparte = seleucid
and I_SettlementOwner Athena = seleucid
and I_SettlmentOwner Corinthos = seleucid
and I_SettlementOwner Thermon = seleucid
and I_SettlementOwner Demetrias = seleucid
and I_SettlementOwner Pella = seleucid
and I_SettlementOwner Byzantion = seleucid
and I_SettlentOwner Myteline = seleucid
and I_SettlementOwner Rhodos = seleucid
and I_SettlemntOwner Kydonia = seleucid
and I_SettlemntOwner Ambrakia = seleucid

set_counter Romanii_11SubjAvalible 1
terminate_monitor
end_if

end_monitor

---

Your original code wont work unless You add set_counter Romanii_11 0 at the beginning or end of monitor.

Without it if You hold lets say 2 of mentioned settlements You will reach Romanii_11 = 12 after 6 turns.

With mentioned correction Your original code would be suitable if Your requirement would be to hold x=11 out of Y (not equal X ) provinces.
If You need to hold all provinces use simpler method.

Good points, thanks for that:2thumbsup:

Phew, looks impressing! But I'm wondering: What if, for example, the Koinon Hellenon conquered Korinthos. Would they have to conquer all of Greece up to Byzantion in order to make it a cleruchy? Or will this be a special case? Like if the Seleucids conquered Baktra. In vanilla EB, they can build type 1 Government in there. How will this be shown? I think that the factions should have some areas where they can already build type 2 government after conquering.
Perhaps if they share culture? But, perhaps I'm mistaken and you have already thought of that.

Yeah I have thought of that and I think the best way to do this would be to ahve homeland goverments unaffected, the place subjavalible script will not affect settlements that already have subjugation or homeland avalible. Thus factions will start off with pretty much all of their curent homelands, plus a few subjugation areas very near to them, and will have to aquire more by conquering entire regions.

Yeah, that's exactly what I thought of! Nice to see that this is already planed in a high degree.
But Carthage and Rome would be special cases. They both have nearly every mediteranean settlement as "subjugation available", the romans have nearly all of the world in addition. But, it's still a long, long time until the new EB version comes out, so the planing has a lot of time:laugh4:

I'm beginning to really like this approach, its certainly interesting. Hmm... gives me an idea. Thanks, Pharnakes.

Foot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pharnakes

Right, here is a map I have adapated from the decr_regions:

https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/85...ruitmentg4.jpg

---

I'd say:

Kush, Erytraea to egyptian, Di'amat to arabian group.
Cyprus to Asia Minor, Judaea to Syria.
Venetia to Gaul.
Byzantion and Aquincum to Getia.
Eastern half of baltic region to eastern steppe, the rest to Germania, Bastarnae also to Germania.
Baleares to Iberia.

But what do have the mediterranean islands in common with Italia? Messana, Syracuse are greek. Lilibeo is Carthaginian, also Sardinia and Corsica (or are they greek, the latter two?).

What defines Asia Minor? Galatia is rather Celtic. Lower Armenia is rather, well, armenian. Kappadokia is more influenced by Syria, the rest of Asia Minor are greek colonies. I'd transform Asia Minor Group to an eastern Hellen group, with the exceptions named above.

Just my 2 cent to the cultural relations.

My current plan now is to use the following timer for each individual city

Code:

---

monitor_event FactionEndTurn FactionType seleucid
and I_CompareCounter Romanii_A02 <140
and I_TuenNumber >1

        if I_SettlementOwner Pella = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_C08 1
        end_if

        if I_CompareCounter Romanii_C08 >=140
                set_counter Romanii_C08subjAvalible 1
                terminate_monitor

        end_if

        if notI_SettlementOwner Pella = seleucid
                set_counter Romanii_C08 0
        end_if

end_monitor

---

The C08 bit comes from the EB hidden resources system, which I thought I might as well keep, rather than come up with my own.

This script would thus require you to own a settlement for 35 years before it becomes avalible for subjugation. It would be possible though to short circuit this requirement by pacifying the entire region, which will be done with the script bellow:

Code:

---

monitor_event FactionEndTurn FationType seleucid
and I_CompareCounter Romanii_11
and I_TurnNumber > 1

        if I_SettlementOwner Sparte = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Athena = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlmentOwner Corinthos = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Thermon = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Demetrias = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Pella = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlentOwner Myteline = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Rhodos = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlemntOwner Kydonia = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlemntOwner Ambrakia = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Pergamon = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Halikarnassos = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Trapezous = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_SettlementOwner Synope = seleucid
                inc_counter Romanii_11 1
        end_if

        if I_CompareCounter Romanii_11 >= 13
               
                set_counter Romanii_11subjAvalible 1
        end_if

        set_counter Romanii_11 0

end_monitor

---

These two scripts will obviously need to be integrated properly and I will post the whole think later.

@Centurio Nixalsverdrus: Yeah, I made that at about two o'clock in the morning and was just trying to get it done, hence the scrambled mediteranean islands. I made the baltic coasts region to represent the area that was not step due to the forests, but was not at all civilized, (unlike Germania).



P.S. @ Foot, I don't suppose you would share just what this idea is with us?:beam:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pharnakes

P.S. @ Foot, I don't suppose you would share just what this idea is with us?:beam:

---

Well I can reveal that I've only just thought about it and its for Hayasdan. But thats about all, otherwise the EB Ninjas will get me, and I'm all out of pirates.

Foot

Pharnakes whenever You post code in Your reply put it between markers.
It will make it more readable (like in my previous post).

Quote:

---

This script would thus require you to own a settlement for 35 years before it becomes avalible for subjugation. It would be possible though to short circuit this requirement by pacifying the entire region, which will be done with the script bellow:

---

You overlooked one Very important thing. Counters are not saved in save files.
Every time You load game all Your counters are back to zero.
I doubt anyone will play EB for 35 years at one go.

Right, current plan:

To divide the world up into small areas of 2-6 cities, which would all need to be conquered before subjugation is avalible. Subjugation goverment types would be increaesd to around 100 turns to build, to represnet the time required to assimilate the population into the empire. This I think is a good idea because it will encourage people to use the allied type goverments at first, and only move onto subjugation once the province is safe from external threat, which is historical I belive.

Thus the script runs like this:

Code:

---

monitor_event FactionEndTurn FactionType romans_julii
and I_LocalFaction romans_juli
and I_CompareCounter seleukids1 = 0
and I_TurnNumber > 1
 if I_settlementOwner Ivernis = romans_julii
 and I_SettlementOwner Emain_Macha = romans_julii
 
  console_command create_building Ivernis expansion
  console_command create_building Emain_Macha expansion
  set_counter seleukids1= 1
  terminate_monitor
 end_if
monitor_event FactionEndTurn FactionType romans_julii
and I_LocalFaction romans_juli
and I_CompareCounter seleukids2 = 0
and I_TurnNumber > 1
 if I_settlementOwner Ynys_mon = romans_julii
 and I_SettlementOwner Caern_Brigantae = romans_julii
 and I_SettlementOwner Ratae = romans_julii
  console_command create_building Ynys_mon expansion
  console_command create_building Caern_Brigantae expansion
  console_command create_building Ratae expansion
  set_counter seleukids2= 1
  terminate_monitor
 end_if

---

This being the scripts for the seleukid sunjugation of Ireland and northern England respectivley. Again any thoughts are appreciated, especialy an opinion of am experinced scripter as to wether this will work or nor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Foot

Well I can reveal that I've only just thought about it and its for Hayasdan. But thats about all, otherwise the EB Ninjas will get me, and I'm all out of pirates.

Foot

---

No need for Ninjas. We have a jointOP Dosidataskeli/Thorakitai Argyraspidai force, exactly for such contingencies. Get the job done, plus we have the models for them too! :2thumbsup:

Quote:

---

Again any thoughts are appreciated, especialy an opinion of am experinced scripter as to wether this will work or nor.

---

Your code looks good but You forgot end_monitor .

Ofcourse You didnt post code for setting seleukids1 and seleukids2 so cant comment on nothing else then correct syntax of Your code.

I think this script would make things a lot easier and simpler if it is possible:

Code:

---


monitor_event FactionEndTurn FactionType romans_julii
and I_LocalFaction romans_juli
and not BuildingExixts Ivernis expansion
and not BuildingExixts Eamin_Macha expansion
and not BuildingExixts Ivernis homeland
and not BuildingExixts Eamin_Macha homeland
and I_TurnNumber > 1
 if I_settlementOwner Ivernis = romans_julii
 and I_SettlementOwner Emain_Macha = romans_julii
 
  console_command create_building Ivernis expansion
  console_command create_building Emain_Macha expansion
  terminate_monitor
 end_if

---

Anyone know if the multiple settlement not BuildingExists are posible, as I've only ever seen them used for one settlement at a time.


Thanks

Do You mean SettlementBuildingExists ?
If so then no, it cant be used as You propose.

Edit: Dont forget about end_monitor after end_if

thanks for all that;

this is the latest model:

Code:

---


monitor_event FactionTurnEnd FactionType = Romans_julii
and I_CompareCounter romans_julii_1 < 1
and I_LocalFaction romans_julii
and I_TurnNumber>1
 if I_SettlementOwner Ivernis = romans_julii
 and I_SettlementOwner Emain_Macha = romans_julii
  set_counter romans_julli_1 1
 end_if
end_monitor
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Ivernis
and I_CompareCounter romans_julii_1 = 1
 if I_SettlementOwner Ivernis = romans_julii
 console_command create_building Ivernis "expansion"
end_if
end_monitor
monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Emain_Macha
and I_CompareCounter romans_julii_1 = 1
 if I_SettlementOwner Emain_Macha = romans_julii
 console_command create_building Emain_Macha "expansion"
end_if
end_monitor

---

Would this work do you think?

thanks

Looks good.

I dont know if this will make sense since I dont fully understand Your idea but You should avoid making to many monitors.

You should be able to do it like this:

Code:

---

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Ivernis

  if I_CompareCounter faction_X_1 = 1
  and I_SettlementOwner Ivernis = faction_X
      console_command create_building Ivernis "expansion"
  end_if

  if I_CompareCounter faction_Y_1 = 1
  and I_SettlementOwner Ivernis = faction_Y
      console_command create_building Ivernis "expansion"
  end_if

end_monitor

---

Or for meany settlements:

Code:

---

monitor_event SettlementTurnStart SettlementName Ivernis

  if I_CompareCounter faction_X_1 = 1

      if I_SettlementOwner Settlement_A = faction_X
        console_command create_building Settlement_A "expansion"
      end_if

      if I_SettlementOwner Settlement_B = faction_X
        console_command create_building Settlement_B "expansion"
      end_if

  end_if

  if I_CompareCounter faction_Y_1 = 1

      if I_SettlementOwner Settlement_A = faction_Y
        console_command create_building Settlement_A "expansion"
      end_if

      if I_SettlementOwner Settlement_B = faction_Y
        console_command create_building Settlement_B "expansion"
      end_if

  end_if

end_monitor

---

Ofcourse Settlement_A/B faction_X/Y should be substituted by real names in real code. This is just to show template.

Basicly, what I am trying to acheive is a peice of script that will place the expansion marker in two settlements when both are owned by the same faction.

Hmm, just realised that it is not possible to delete the markers, will it affect things if there are two markers presnet, eg expansion and outlying? Will this just mean that you can build 2,3&4, or will the presence of the outlying marker screw it up? (although I don't realy see how it could)

It could lokk strange but I don't think it will mess anything, because Type 2 governments need expansion, whereas 3 and 4 don't need anything, alliances available is only there to tell that no type 2 can be build there. But i'm not a modder, so you'll better wait until one shows up:laugh4:

It should work without problems.

Not totally sure how this is supposed to work, but it *seems* like you intend to remove the link between units and provinces, which is the primary method by which recruitment works in EB. I can sort of see how this might operate for human-controlled factions (although you will find the idea fraught with unintended consequences, such as the fact that units are recruited by more than one faction and more than one mic), but it will fail utterly with AI Factions, as all their governments are placed by script. Reason being that the outlying, expansion, and homeland buildings apply to the human player only.

So no matter how long a province is occupied by an AI faction, their government won't change (unless you vastly increase the size and complexity of the AI Gov Granting script).

Yes, I am aware of these problems and have started plans to counteract them.

Well, imvho what EB is missing right now is a truly effective way to represent cultural assimilation and intermixing.
While the government system is great I feel the long term environment to be slightly "static"...
I feel (again imvho) that there should be a way to be able to integrate at least a bit more some regions in your empire even when there is a great cultural difference.
I'm not saying it should be easy or widely available but as in a way EB already got buildings simulating huge terraforming why not having something that does the same with population?
A structure representing elites becoming closer to the conquerors or migration of player's faction natives in the area (isn't what the "colony" building should do in theory?) that takes huge amounts of time and money but allows you to put a closer goverment type could be a quick and relatively easy solution...

As a side note, is there any way for a piece of script to monitor the cultural penalty being assessed to a settlement's owner? That would seem a great way to deal with cultural assimilation (at least as a start). In my old Romani campaign my standard practice was to install a type 4 in all new conquests (I even did this for my early Italic conquests) and then build everything I could. Then I'd install a type 3. Build all I could. Then install Type 2 or 1. I found that on average, it took between 30-40 years of near continuous building before I'd even begin a Type 3, and usually another 5-10 after that (at least) before I put in a Type 2/1. IMO, taking roughly 2 generations of non-revolt seemed like a fair standard for becoming a loyal Roman province.
I always thought that as culture penalties were removed that it should logically increase loyalty. And for all those Huge cities you conquer late in the game that will always have a 30% or so penalty due to the central building? They can only be SO loyal in my mind.
And if the culture penalty could be tracked, it would be even cooler if unit recruitment could be tied to it as well (more local flavor for more culture penalty; more like factional for less), but I'm pretty sure that really wishful thinking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarax

Well, imvho what EB is missing right now is a truly effective way to represent cultural assimilation and intermixing.
While the government system is great I feel the long term environment to be slightly "static"...
I feel (again imvho) that there should be a way to be able to integrate at least a bit more some regions in your empire even when there is a great cultural difference.
I'm not saying it should be easy or widely available but as in a way EB already got buildings simulating huge terraforming why not having something that does the same with population?
A structure representing elites becoming closer to the conquerors or migration of player's faction natives in the area (isn't what the "colony" building should do in theory?) that takes huge amounts of time and money but allows you to put a closer goverment type could be a quick and relatively easy solution...

---

Truly converting the majority of a population from one culture to another takes a very long time under most conditions. Some of the best examples in our period are the Hellenistic Kingdoms, and even they weren't truly "Greek", but rather had pockets of Greeks in the midst of a far larger number of natives. Even Rome took a very long time to assimilate Italy, to say nothing of the rest of the world. And most of the cultural conversions I hear people requesting are FAR faster than that - so quick as to be quite unrealistic. EB does capture this pace pretty well with the Roman Reform system, yet even there the biggest complaint we hear is that it "takes too long" to get from one reform to another.

So even if we could adequately capture these conversions (and there are some additional surprises in store in the next release), the time periods will often prove unsatisfactory. If we represent the true pace of cultural conversion, people are unhappy because in game terms it's perceived as too slow. If we change it up to meet the desires of the masses, we would no longer be true to history. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Well, that's why I suggested to tie it to a building.
Right now player have the possibility to build an artificial harbour but they know that it's an expensive luxury they can afford only when they most likely will be past the need (if you can save 64k you already have a pretty strong economy).
Having a "cultural conversion" building that takes around 200 turns and costs several dozen thousands mnai would recreate the fact that converting a population is a long and hard process while giving at the same time an easy access to cheat on cost/lenght of construction for people that prefers faster times that what's historically proper.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarax

Well, that's why I suggested to tie it to a building.
Right now player have the possibility to build an artificial harbour but they know that it's an expensive luxury they can afford only when they most likely will be past the need (if you can save 64k you already have a pretty strong economy).
Having a "cultural conversion" building that takes around 200 turns and costs several dozen thousands mnai would recreate the fact that converting a population is a long and hard process while giving at the same time an easy access to cheat on cost/lenght of construction for people that prefers faster times that what's historically proper.

---

Seriously? I'd rather they have to *suffer* from learning actual history than put in some kind of arbitrary building that can easily be cheated to utterly violate the EB system. That makes me almost physically ill, just thinking about it. Bah. :smash:

Well, users can still cheat by changing reform requirements or changing reform dates so it would be kind of a moot point with all due respect.
It is also historical that empires established colonies and military settlements when and where they needed.
They were not always successful but from my limited knowledge of history it was a frequent enough event that deserves some kind of simulation ingame.

Whetever this can be made or not by scripting or some other emulation of choice is of course all up to the EB team.

These are just my 2cent from a game balancing perspective, feel free to agree to disagree of course!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarax

Well, that's why I suggested to tie it to a building.
Right now player have the possibility to build an artificial harbour but they know that it's an expensive luxury they can afford only when they most likely will be past the need (if you can save 64k you already have a pretty strong economy).
Having a "cultural conversion" building that takes around 200 turns and costs several dozen thousands mnai would recreate the fact that converting a population is a long and hard process while giving at the same time an easy access to cheat on cost/lenght of construction for people that prefers faster times that what's historically proper.

---

That's exactly what I was thinking about, too. Perhaps we should work together:laugh4:
I have quite some plans for doing a mini-mod of my own, but first I need to know how to mod in additional buildings (and time of course)...:dizzy2:

Well, the problem is that right now I have no spare time for modding plus what little I manage to gather is dedicated to XGM where I'm a team member...

As part of this mod I am planning on including a miltary outpost building. This would cost tonnes of money, quite a bit of time and would completley kill trade, tax and growth, however it would let you recruit most factional units anywhere. In essence this building will represent all the tedious micromanagment of moving men to the front, that is so hard in EB due to the movment points (I'm not complaning about the movment points here, I know why they have to as they are). Hopefuly therefore, I'll be able to work out some method of giving building times an upkeep cost, but I don't know yet. Is this more or less what you were thinking Zarax and Basileus Seleukeia? (If you want to I would be more than willing to do some coperative thing between the three of us)

Well, my "plans" are something like 3 buildings:
"Light colonisation": This will be the basis which will be upgraded to the "Colonisation and Colonist recruitment". Light colonisation does nothing, perhaps some penaltys, but it will be expensive.
"Colonisation and Colonist recruitment": This will enable the recruitment of some factional troops and some penaltys because the natives are partly driven off of their Land. Expensive and takes a long time to build. Upgraded to "Colonisation of indigenous citys".
"Colonisation of indigenous citys"
Same as above, but some more semi-elite factional units are available (Thorakitai and Legionarys, but not Thorakitai Argyraspiday and Evocata for example) It also enables Type 2 Government.
Every major culture type (hellenic, roman, germanic, gallic, etc.) will get their own versions, the titles listed above are just for orientation. But thsi is nowhere near finished, as it renders the Factional MIC useless. Still needs planing.

Yeah, my grump with using buildings though is that you can't build anthing else at the same time, which is obvioulsy a-historical, however, I am starting to think that I will have no choice but to do this, as the stupid scripts can't remember over a saved game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarax

Well, users can still cheat by changing reform requirements or changing reform dates so it would be kind of a moot point with all due respect.
It is also historical that empires established colonies and military settlements when and where they needed.
They were not always successful but from my limited knowledge of history it was a frequent enough event that deserves some kind of simulation ingame.

Whetever this can be made or not by scripting or some other emulation of choice is of course all up to the EB team.

These are just my 2cent from a game balancing perspective, feel free to agree to disagree of course!

---

It is not a "moot point". You can currently cheat the system in the case of a very small number of factions by changing the dates that reforms occur, but the units granted by those reforms will still have to be recruited in the correct, historically accurate provinces. Your idea would change that by potentially allowing most units of every faction to be recruited everywhere. That is historically impossible, and the EB Team has a vested interest in keeping this mod historical. People can build any kind of personal EB mod they so desire, but those who would seek to publish a modpack which attacks the core of what we are trying to achieve? Well, it's likely to cause a problem.

Well, most factions units everywhere is a bit of a stretch on what I was trying to explain...

Now, I don't know intimately EB recruitment system but I also don't think that for most factions having an upgrade to lvl4 to lvl3 government would give huge changes in available roster (hidden resources aren still there as limit) in distant territories, would it?

What I didn't propose for sure was something that would make the other corner of the world available for lvl1 government but merely the possibility of a slight upgrade for players that have lots of money to spend...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarax

Well, most factions units everywhere is a bit of a stretch on what I was trying to explain...

Now, I don't know intimately EB recruitment system but I also don't think that for most factions having an upgrade to lvl4 to lvl3 government would give huge changes in available roster (hidden resources aren still there as limit) in distant territories, would it?

What I didn't propose for sure was something that would make the other corner of the world available for lvl1 government but merely the possibility of a slight upgrade for players that have lots of money to spend...

---

Do you mean an upgrade from lvl3 to lvl2, cos every faction can build a lvl3 or 4 everywhere. Its only the lvl2 and 1 that are restricted.

You would also need to change recruitment a lot, as we don't organise it by MIC levels (mostly), and so people would be building lvl2s and finding that Faction MICs don't give them anything. Unless you change recruitment quite drastically this idea doesn't seem to hold much merit.

Foot

I stand corrected on the technicalities of what I was proposing, although I still think that there should be some mechanism to emulate the mostly unavoidable intermixing (if only talking about elites) between cultures when a land has been occupied for more than a generation...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zarax

I stand corrected on the technicalities of what I was proposing, although I still think that there should be some mechanism to emulate the mostly unavoidable intermixing (if only talking about elites) between cultures when a land has been occupied for more than a generation...

---

Well if you wanted to use the colony building as the recruitment centre then you could do the following.

Colony cannot be built in areas with type 1 or type II govs
Colony does not have any bonuses (can't mix them with recruitment, apparently).
Colony has recruitment options for faction elites in all provinces.

Foot

Im sure I've seen mods where barracks give public order bonuses though?

From what I've heard, that worked in 1.2 but no longer in 1.5. Haven't tried myself.

Ok, yet another idea - what I will call logistics centers. Thses will be a select few cities in the world that are at the center of many routes, and would thus logicaly become major supply dumps/logistics corodination points. For example, Antiocheia, Alexandreia, Athens, Byzantion, Roma, Kart-Hadast, Seleukia, ect, ect.

This logistics system wil have scripted upkeep to represent the costs of arranging for trrops to be transported from yuor recruitment areas to the rear line of the "front." These buildings will basicaly work like very expensive, quick to build factional mics, however they will require at least stone roads and good military and mercantile docks to be built first, as well as holding all of the provincies surounding the town.


What are peoples thoughts on this and also suggestions please as to which cities should be considered for the honours.


Edit: here is waht I have so far:

Code:

---

City                        Region

Antiocheia                Syria
Alexandreia                Delata Neilou
Athenai                        Attike
Syrakousai                Trinakrie
Camulosadae                Cassemorg
Chersonesos                Taurike Chersonesos
Avaricum                Batromorgan
Roma                        Latium
Persepolis                Persis
Baktra                        Baktria
Kart-Hadast                Zeugitana
Swebotraustastamnoz        Swebolandam
Mastia                        Bastetunia
Maryab                        Saba
Zadrakata                Hyrbania
Kiat                        Khwarazm
Lucarottea                Coutinoe
Byzantion                Chersonesos

---

I could do with a couple more, especialy in barbarian lands, so :feedback:

OK, here is the list of recruitment possibilites as Macedon:

Code:

---


Level 1    25000/2500/2
Hoplitai Haploi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 
Level 2    20000/6500/3
Phalangitai Deuteroi
Peltastai
Hippakontistai
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopliati Haploi
 
Level 3      15000/15000/4
Pezhetairoi
Prodromoi
Thurephoroi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopliati Haploi
Phalangitai Deuteroi
Peltastai
Hippakontistai
 
Level 4      12500/35000/6
Hippeis Thessalikoi
Thrakoi Prodromoi
Thrakoi Peltastai
Kretikoi Toxotai
Thrakoi Hippeis
Argyraspiadai
3 span
30 mianai
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopliati Haploi
Phalangitai Deuteroi
Peltastai
Hippakontistai
Pezhetairoi
Prodromoi
Thurephoroi
 
Level 5      9500/65000/8
Hetairoi
Hypistai
Argarianikoi Pelekphoroi
Pheraspiadai
Taxeis Triabloi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hopliati Haploi
Phalangitai Deuteroi
Peltastai
Hippakontistai
Pezhetairoi
Prodromoi
Thurephoroi
Hippeis Thessalikoi
Thrakoi Prodromoi
Thrakoi Peltastai
Kretikoi Toxotai
Thrakoi Hippeis
Argyraspiadai
3 span
30 mianai

---

The X/Y/Z denote cost to build/upkeep (and yes upkeep per turn:smash: )/turns to build. More factions to follow.

So let me get this straight, these buildings are rather quick to construct and they basically transplant your best factional troops to one of the important cities under you control so you can pump out Calawre and Milnaht as the Casse in Seleukeia ( an extreme example) right?

I have to agree with Redmeth, you have to make these much more expensive and time-consuming. Or we should perhaps hope that the EB team will start such a thing of their own. I think it is "not fair" that the romans can recruit their elites nearly everywhere on the map, whereas other factions can't even build their standard soldiers a bit outside the type 1 government areas. They historically never did that, but, wait a moment, isn't EB about what was 100% plausible? Wouldn't a succesfull Epeirotean Empire also have been 100% plausible if Pyrrhus hadn't died so early? Giving romans that ability just because they had the luck to be the most succesfull faction in history is ridiculous.

60,000 a turn too cheep? well posibly, but not by much surely.


For the rest of it basileus seleukeia, that is exactly what is driving me to do this.


@Redmeth I am not sure about barbarians, who were hardly masters of logistics, were they but something definatley needs to be done for them, after all, in real life they conquered down to Ankyra, imagine trying to do that in eb, bringing up all the reniforcments from Gaul to fight the Seleukids... At present in EB it is just not possible but I don't think this system that I am suggesting (which is bassicaly a logistics system that has had the micromanagment removed from it so you can concentrate on other matters) would be paticuarly appropriate for the barbarians, anyone got any ideas for what would be?

Yeah, that big part of my "speech" was to justify your attempts against those who dare to stand against this honourable idea:laugh4:
But it is that I think that the project is missing the original target, i.e. integrating provinces into the empire. But it is also true that I understand that this is complicated as hell and, well, not really worth the effort as in future builds of EB everything can change. As I said, perhaps it is better to wait for the EB team to do a integrating sytem of their own. But perhaps I just say this because I'm royal lazy:laugh4:

Unfortunatley scripting let me down, because you cannot have any sort of counter that dosen't reset every time you reload the game. And anyway, the EB team have specificaly stated that they are not going to change recruitment.

Basicaly its all CAs fault:wall: :wall: Ah, well in EB we'll can have scripts that do remember from the last save.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kull

(unless you vastly increase the size and complexity of the AI Gov Granting script).

---

GAH! :eeeek: