HRE: Reiters Tactics and Deployment.

Greetings everyone !

Inspired by some brief comments in the thread about Camel Gunners, I decided to post a thread about Reiters.

How does everyone use these guys. I have not used them yet, but I have fought against them. the superior range of bows and muskets mean they will suffer casualties to enemy fire before getting a shot off. If the survivors do get close enough they will be attacked before they can get a shot off.

So obviously I'm missing something here.

Any discussion, tactical suggestions on their usage most appreciated. I'm looking forward to an HRE game once Pure Fixer 1.14 is out.

Personal observations: The HRE is one of the most impressive factions in the game. Unparralled unit roster. Powerful 2 Handers of all descriptions. Gothic Knights, mounted and (modded) dismounted. Serpentines and arqbusiers. Throughout an HRE campaign you are guaranteed to smash even the most powerful armies your European contemporaries can throw at you.

THE REICH SHOWS IT'S OBVIOUS SUPERIORITY THROUGH BATTLE !

SALUTE !

well i have only used them a few times on custom battle and they were great, but anyway once i just left them in the same place the whloe battle and they killed any thing that got near them.And the other time i held the enemy forces with infantry and cav,and flanked them with my Reiters and they killed most of the army anyway thats what i do i hopes this helps.

:medievalcheers:

Thanks.

They have lances as secondary weapon I believe, so good charge too. I guess the impact of the volley would rout most units, then you charge to mop up. So... I guess one of the keys is to get that one shot off.

So, is quoting myself like talking to myself, a sign of getting old?

Anyway:

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

Reiter tactics are a sadly neglected topic, but a few general observations can be made.

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I suspect that if I could read German, I'd find a lot of discussion on the internet.

My best guess on using them would be to leave fire at will on, then alt-attack. The defender would get a face full of a powerful pistol volley (and morale penalties) right before getting hit by a powerful knight-like charge.

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

So, is quoting yourself like talking to yourself, a sign of getting old?.

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HAHAHAHA ! :laugh4:

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Originally Posted by Doug-Thompson

I suspect that if I could read German, I'd find a lot of discussion on the internet.

My best guess on using them would be to leave fire at will on, then alt-attack. The defender would get a face full of a powerful pistol volley (and morale penalties) right before getting hit by a powerful knight-like charge

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It's an idea though, I might check google.de. And good points !
That sounds great, steady canter, shoot then charge. Plain and simple.

Going to google.de alone won't do it. You also have to change your advanced preferences to be German. Tried that the other way around as I use google.de and when I used google.com I was still getting the same results I did as if I had used google.de until I changed my preferences for it to display preferrably UK content.

Hmm, I've used them in one HRE campaign, IIRc I had a stack of 4 Reiters and one general and they could mop up quite a few stacks of rebels etc, losing only few if any Reiters. With the shieldbug fixed, many units should survive better against Reiters, but I guess they're still quite effective, against archers you can do whatever you want, shoot them or charge them and spears are usually shot to pieces, as is most infantry of course.
It's quite some time ago that I've used them though, so I cannot remember everything exactly, I've moved away from playing the HRE as it makes me feel a bit too nationalistic.:laugh4: And the other factions are interesting as well.
Anyway, I think Reiters are quite a good allround cavalry, decent armour, decent melee and a very deadly short range pistol to take on everybody they don't want to make contact with(and most others as well). I think due to their high pistol attack, they're even dangerous to elephants and since their horses are pretty fast, they can stay away or close in as necessary against most units. Horsearchers sound like a good counter to Reiters, but they better don't let them into pistol range or the battle may turn around quite quickly.:sweatdrop:
Well, that's all I can think of for now.

I have never got so far in a campaign to use them but I have used them through many a custom battle. They are great for harassing foes and riding off if need be but they are even better for shaking the enemy and then charging to mop up the foe. Historically they used swords as a secondary weapon, not spears. Maybe the spears are there for extra charge stat?

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Originally Posted by husar

I think due to their high pistol attack, they're even dangerous to elephants and since their horses are pretty fast, they can stay away or close in as necessary against most units.

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I have used them against timurids in a quick battle with elephants. Needless to say the elephants could do nothing to combat them, they completely ran circles around the elephants, shook them and eventually caused them to route.

Tschüß!
Erich

Elephant hunting. Now that sounds fun.

I can't help but get the impression, however, that Reiters just show up too late in the game to be of much practical use.

P.S. I just figured this out. :dizzy:

Reiters are for killing late-game pike formations. They can do this from range, then charge in and finish them off. They are also so well armored that cheap archers won't bother them much.

In other uses, if they are going to be used as a knight-like unit that gives a preliminary bombardment, then I'd deploy them in a longer, thinner line than the usual HA "box". That way, you get more units making contact with the initial charge.

Hmmm. Picture that. Knight-like unit bears down, fires a deadly volley at close range, breaks the target in a charge, surviving enemies run away from the relatively slow cavalry unit — which now pours more heavy, deadly fire into the routers backs.

Quick annihilation of the broken unit should result.

I'm at the year 1315 or so in my HRE campaign and I would say that my Reiters have been battle winners on several occasions. I like to bring 3-4 to a battle, but that's not always possible. So far I've used them against the Hungarians, Byzantines, and Polish since all the western european factions have been wiped out. I haven't gotten to use them against the Russians yet, but their time will come.

Against infantry heavy armies (what I've been seeing from the Byzantines) they've been very effective, skirmishing and gunning down the heavy infantry I don't want reaching my lines at full strength like the Varangians. They do take heavy casualties from archers, but if you can draw them out of the main formation and get a charge off they'll wipe them out. I usually do this when attacking by riding them off far away on the flanks, out of bowshot. This tends to draw the AI archers out of the main formation leaving them to be cut up. They also tend to mop up routing units more efficiently than heavy cavalry.

I don't actually recall fighting the hungarians with an army with reiters, but I may have. At any rate they've used infantry heavy armies so its been mostly the same tactics as the byzantines.

The Polish have been sending cavalry heavy armies at me, so that has been a bit different and probably more challenging. I put them on skirmish, send them to the flanks or behind as usual, and then send them after any inviting heavy cavalry targets. On defense this usually pulls 2-3 of their heavy cav away from the main formation weakening their assault. They've proven to be pretty good General killers with such a high missile attack and being able to outpace them. Unfortunately they're sometimes frustratingly inept at skirmishing, letting a unit of heavy cav get a charge off and taking pretty hefty losses. I haven't had them go head to head with Polish Nobles yet, and I'll probably try to avoid that situation at all cost.

I suppose in short, I use them as skirmishers to go heavy cavalry or heavy infantry hunting, killing general's bodyguards, and hunting down routers. They always kill a good amount of the enemy and capture more than any of my other units.

Plus there's nothing quite like watching enemy royalty get gunned down in a medieval drive by :2thumbsup:

Their main strength is the fact that, even while they charge they fire their pistols, thus softening up and demoralising their targets. The same goes for chasing routers, they kill a couple of enemies with their pistols in addition to those they manage to catch up with. They´re excellent flankers, too, but they shouldn´t charge head on into heavy infantry like any dismounted Knights or such. But a target already engaged in combat, attacked from the flank or rear is almost a certain rout with a Reiter charge.
I wouldn´t bother with the circle abiity, though, they´re too likely to get entangled with something, just leaving them on skirmish will do the job.

Are they "fast moving" ? Apologies for ignorance.

Their stats say mount-heavy horse, which means they're just as fast as sipahi.

I can't remember exactly where but I seem to remember someone saying that intests they found in tests that Reiters were most effective as pistoleers when drawn out in as long as a line as possible (i.e. two ranks) and left stationery.

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

I can't remember exactly where but I seem to remember someone saying that intests they found in tests that Reiters were most effective as pistoleers when drawn out in as long as a line as possible (i.e. two ranks) and left stationery.

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That was Whacker's conclusion, as I recall.

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Are they "fast moving" ? Apologies for ignorance.

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No, but their bullets are. Their heavy horses are hardy, which means they can outrun a weary heavy cavalry.

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Plus there's nothing quite like watching enemy royalty get gunned down in a medieval drive by :2thumbsup:

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Ah, the simple pleasures are the best. :wink:

I'm going to link this thread in the Missile Cavalry guide.

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Unfortunately they're sometimes frustratingly inept at skirmishing, letting a unit of heavy cav get a charge off and taking pretty hefty losses. I haven't had them go head to head with Polish Nobles yet, and I'll probably try to avoid that situation at all cost.

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Yes. Javelins have longer range than reiters pistol shots (55 to 45). Reiters have more ammo, however. Could get interesting.

Whoa. I just had a chilling thought.

My limited experience with Reiters was in version 1.01 — before the shield bug was fixed.

Reiters have no shield. Therefore, they will now be at a profound disadvantage in melee against a regular knight unit.

Therefore, I'll have to rethink my earlier posts. I still think it would have to be one tough unit to survive a pre-charge volley and then a charge, though.

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Originally Posted by Sinan

That sounds great, steady canter, shoot then charge. Plain and simple.

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Hmm, wow. If you can pull off a gunpowder volley shot then a good charge ~:eek: :skull: .

Firearms supposedly ignore shields, btw.

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Originally Posted by dopp

Firearms supposedly ignore shields, btw.

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Yeah, but in melee, when Reiters get smacked with maces, a shield would be helpful.

For me, Reiters were the most fun unit discovered during late-game. I first tried to use them as arquebusiers, but their short range (and poor accuracy?) are a big disadvantage.

When charging, on the other hand, you get combined gunpowder and charge effect (Reiters shoot when closing in), so they're pretty much irresistible. Flank or behind, double click, charge, volley shoot, impact and chase routers - that's the most usual sequence you'll get with Reiters. :yes:

Note to self: Never suggest a tactic before trying it out.

Reiter range is so short, they don't get a volley fired before their charge begins when they are ordered to charge something.

Therefore, my suggestion of ordering to charge and my assumption they'd soften up the enemy with a volley before making contact was all wrong. I'll play around with this to see if there's something to make them shoot, but it doesn't look good.

Frankly, I'm at a bit of a loss here. Their range is so short -- some 22 percent less than a javelin's -- that multiple units of reiters cannot effectively concentrate their fire unless they clump together.

Targets barely get in range before reiters start skirmishing away if the skirmish mode is left on. That's not as big a problem as it appears at first, though, because their fire is so deadly and reloading takes a long time anyway. Still, there's a lot of wasted shots when skirmishing.

The short range also prevents them from developing good crossfire between multiple units.

However, they are extremely deadly when they get close. I strongly suspect, Sinan, that your waypoint method of attack will prove to be the way to go with these guys -- but I'm going to try it first this time.

I tried it last night.

I did what you mentioned i.e use them against slow, heavy infantry. I waypointed them around one of the flanks, close to pikemen, on auto fire, skirmish off. I charged the frontline muskets with Gothic Knights at the same time. That brought a quick and decisive end to the enemy's range.

Once they were around the back I unloaded in the rear of the enemy army till winchester (out of ammunition), skirmishing away when necessary. Then charged them into the rear of the enemy supporting a general attack across the front line. That worked great, very few casualties, and about 30-40 kills/captures per unit.

I tried them in CC (Cantabrian Circle) but it was just looking so silly, I had to turn it off.

Range is an issue and you have to keep a very close eye on them. Almost all casualties occured because of running into something inadvertantly. Multiple units at the same spot might spell trouble because of proximity to the enemy, but it's worth a try, I only had 2 of them in that test. They are a potent unit.

I believe their historical usage was to do just that. Ride up close to the enemy, fire their pistols, and run away to reload. It was Gustav II Adolphus that brought the melee of knights back. Their speed took advantage of the slow reload time of early firearms. Once the infantry discharged their guns, the horses could ride in, fire, and flee before they had a chance to reload.

Could work like this:-

2 Groups of 2 UNITS Reiters

• Each group deployed to a chosen quadrant (Center, Left, Right, Rear) of the enemy army.
• One unit fires, and skirmishes away to reload.
• Second unit approaches and fires, skirmishes away to reload.

They're good for mopping up enemy heavy cavalry. Since they've got faster horses just keep them out of range of the enemy heavy cavalry. Light Cavalry with AP bullets + Heavy Cavalry with slower cavalry = smithereens. If you can't micro manage them to keep them out of melee. Just lead the enemy heavy cavalry to the corner of the map etc, while you deal with the enemy's main force.

Looks like the Spanish will be getting "dragoons" (guys on horses with carbines) in Kingdoms. They look unarmoured to me but the description says they have a breast plate.

Did something last night I'd never do with normal missile cavalry: Tolerated some friendly fire losses.

Got some real-world work to do this morning, so here it is in a rush.

Reiters are very deadly when micromanaged intensively, but I wanted to finds something more "automatic".

So I set up three lines of reiters in COLUMN formation -- basically three rows of reiters. I set formation to loose. Each unit was only two ranks deep.

Set them up on grassy fields against four units of French Chivalric Men at Arms (foot, sword and shield with good armor).

Turned fire-at-will and skirmish off. Waited until a unit was in range, then hit the on fire-at-will hotkey for all three as a group. After the first rank got a good, solid volley off, I hit skirmish for the whole group. The first line, still reloading, skirmished back and the second line started blazing away. By the time the third line started firing, I had a mass of horsemen looking like they were in a wild West shootout and one decimated, routed men at arms unit.

I suffered perhaps two or three friendly fire losses.

I had to micromanage from there. I'm going to work on it some more, but it's a hectic weekend.

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Originally Posted by Sinan

2 Groups of 2 UNITS Reiters

* Each group deployed to a chosen quadrant (Center, Left, Right, Rear) of the enemy army.
* One unit fires, and skirmishes away to reload.
* Second unit approaches and fires, skirmishes away to reload.

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Exactly. I tried a two-line formation last night, after the three-line experiment. Results were even better. Wiped out all four infantry units and had half my ammo left, losing only four men.

I'm going to get the hang of this and send you a movie replay in v1.02 vanilla.

Thanks for the results ! If the replay works, nothing better. I've understood it though. Enjoy your day !

Found something that needs careful testing between two human players:

I think skirmish keeps you out of trouble more effectively when "fire at will" is turned off.

As best I can tell while goofing around in custom battles, reiters have to finish their rather lengthy firing animation before skirmishing away. Now, consider the combination of:

1. Short range
2. Lengthy firing animation
3. Not the fastest horse in the stable.

Reiters kept getting caught by the "kamikaze" troops sent out by high-morale infantry before they could skirmish away. When I turned "fire at will" off, however, skirmishing was generally more effective at breaking contact. I could get my reiters away and turn on "fire at will" later.

Now, as I've already said, the best way is not to use autoskirmish at all with these guys. However, not everybody is a big fan of micromanagement.

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As mentioned, I like to put three reiter units in column formation and loose, then drag them into thin lines. This results in a "super square." If the enemy is advancing, I let the first rank get a good, solid volley into him, then hit skirmish. This means that since just about every unit has fired in the first rank, that rank can skirmish away without a long wait. It falls back through the gaps in the second line and the second line fires. The process is repeated. with the third line, and everything is blazing away.

Even chivalric men at arms can't take such a pounding. If circumstances had allowed, I would have charged the decimated unit with all three reiters. I was goofing around with three reiter units against four such m@a, though, so I didn't charge.

I micromanaged, turning fire-at-will off, then skirmish, then moved the reiters to a new position. We were running all over the map on grassy fields, but I was easily able to wipe out all 241 m@a for the loss of 11 to friendly fire.

Against an enemy that was not advancing, I probably would have used the units separately in single line formations.

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

Looks like the Spanish will be getting "dragoons" (guys on horses with carbines) in Kingdoms. They look unarmoured to me but the description says they have a breast plate.

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That sounds interesting.

Indeed. Looks like some Native American factions something along similar lines too.

Incidentally, I find that the best use for reiters is on the flanks- when the two armies collide send round the reiters round the flanks to lay down a galling pistolade on the enemy infantry, and then charge them in to finish the job when the moment is right. If you try to use normal gunpowder units this way they usually just get trampled down by enemy cavalry but reiters can easily skirmish away. I also find reiters are good for thwarting flanking manouevres themselves- leave them out on the end with the line refused- their range is short enough that they don't distracted shooting at units engaging the centre, but long enough (and their guns powerful enough) that they can inflict pretty crippling casualties at any enemy unit that tries to get around your line.

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Originally Posted by Furious Mental

I find that the best use for reiters is on the flanks- when the two armies collide send round the reiters round the flanks to lay down a galling pistolade on the enemy infantry, and then charge them in to finish the job when the moment is right. If you try to use normal [infantry] gunpowder units this way they usually just get trampled down by enemy cavalry but reiters can easily skirmish away.

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I also find reiters are good for thwarting flanking manouevres themselves- leave them out on the end with the line refused* - their range is short enough that they don't distracted shooting at units engaging the centre, but long enough (and their guns powerful enough) that they can inflict pretty crippling casualties at any enemy unit that tries to get around your line.

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*swept back, like the swept-back wings on a jet fighter.

The flank guards approach is something new and interesting.

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Tried the unit out in a custom battle against a Papal army. Let the computer pick the enemy units. Deployed thin lines of Reiters on either wing, backed up by more Reiters. Threw in one line of Mounted Crossbows and another of knights behind those. The enemy chose a lot of spears, some sword and shield units, a couple of mounted crossbows, a bodyguard unit, other knights and even some artillery.

There wasn't time for micromanagement for the Reiters. They routed the enemy mounted crossbows on the flanks, which allowed my units to crush the enemy in the center. However, the short range of the reiters means that they tended to get out of the battle when skirmishing. When the skirmishing stopped, they are so far out of range they have to be ordered back in. That's how I spent the time I could devote to reiters.

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2k post.

I'm going to start an HRE game soon... pistol everyone !

From what I know historically the pistol-wielding approach on cavalry i,e, reiters was not all together successful in the end - it was cumbersome and was counterintuitive in utilizing the speed and mass of cavalry. Even dragoons weren't the most successful units although they rock in Kingdoms... I guess its pretty accurate historically how reiters look great on paper yet practicality is an issue.

In Kingdoms Reiters are pretty useless against mongol horse archers - tried a 1 v 1 situation in a campaign battle.

Mongol HA outranged and fired quicker than the Reiters.

Best used against stationary infantry who don't mind being shot to pieces at close range.

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I feel like Reiters have been reduced to almost useless in Kingdoms, they had 4 of their 20 ranged attack taken away, they seem quite a bit less accurate even when standing still and their 11 armour seems rather useless against anything but peasants. In the original game I could effectively use them against almost anything, even an army of just four could beat quite a few AI forces but in Kingdoms I had eight plus four mounted crossbowmen and that nowgorod army shot us to pieces while my reiters seemed to miss most of the time or not inflict enough damage to kill a lot, they mostly ended up with more losses than kills while the mounted crossbowmen all had around 200 kills before they were shot to pieces as well. :thumbsdown:
In the original game Reiters were a lot more useful, they might still have lost against so many dismounted Dvor, but they should have killed more themselves.

Hmm, I just used Reiters with Gothic Knights against a standard Mongol stack. Won it in the end, but Reiters didn't look too effective, I had rushed them close to the enemies HA's on the flanks but the Mongol Horse Archers beat them comfortably. Then my Reiters got caught in melee and routed, the Gothics saved the day.

Am I just using these guys wrong, dreaming of the long range camel gunners?

Just fought a full Aztec army under their Prince with an army of 8 Reiters under a captain. Took 180 losses out of 720 men, killed almost all of their 2,400.

I think I'm learning how to use these guys.:2thumbsup: