Faction Thread 5: Chaos

Not one faction .... but 4 factions. Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh, Tzeench.

The outline unit list is pretty much as follows:

Chaos Marauder

Mounted Marauder

Veteran Marauder ( like the ordinary, but a bit nastier and 'touched' by Chaos )

Mounted Veterans

Chaos Warrior

Veteran Warrior ( mutated and a bit more Chaos Faction specific. ) These guys will be different for each faction, where the ordinary warriors are not. Casuir has started work on these, and they will be a bit more 'nasty' than the basic warriors.

Chaos Knights ( very nasty ) Mounted and foot versions..with a suitably chaotic steed!

Chaos Champions. Not strictly a unit in the true sense, but these guys will be in as small a unit as possible, and would represent the generals bodyguard. I also plan on using a variant of this model as a leader model for the lower rank units.

With the faction specific variations on the Elite units, we are looking at 17 units. Marauders will serve as crew figures for Chaos siege engines.

Are minor deamons planned ? Things like Plaguebearers, Deamonettes, and their kornish and tzeentchich equivalents.

Would it be possible to have Chaos Dwarves as servants for warmachines ? Not the pretty blank chaos dwarves introduced by SoC, but the former babylonian-looking chaos dwarves. As they'll likely never be released as their own faction, it would be neat to have a few available to other Chaos factions.

Or if you feel like doing it, a few Chaos Dwarfs units that would be available to the player if he meets some conditions.

It's great to see that the Chaos faction is moving forward.

If you're going to make Chaos Dwarfs, don't make them the old tower-hats. Better take them down the same route which GW inclines. And without those damn hats and beards...

The only warmachine chaos use is the hellcannon, dont know bout bwian but I wouldnt be in a hurry to make that thing. Chaos dwarfs would be pretty low priority units in the grand scheme of things, they're off the map and gw seems to have abandoned them.

The Chaos Dwarfs are far from abandon by GW, I can assure you.

Anyway, I do agree that the Chaos Dwarfs arn't part of the map and should be on low priority.

The lack of warmachines is something I have always wondered about in the armybooks. In my wargaming days, the chaos army was allowed to field rams and simple catapults. These were dressed up with chaos 'decorations' kit-bashed from spare soldier bits.

I know it's not canon...but it's a thought :clown:

The siege element will be interesting for Chaos factions. They will need to rely on rams to take out gates, and siege towers and ladders to scale the walls and storm them hand to hand. There is no real need to give them catapults to just bombard the enemy form a distance. Chaos doesn't approve of such cowardly tactics. Get in close and fight hand to hand.

It will be nice to have some demonic units, but we need to make sure we have a balanced set of units all round for the initial release. Extra's can be added later once we have a solid core. I don't want to focus too much on any one faction initially, and right now, we have a lot of factions needing a lot of units!

Will the chaos warriors for the four gods be identical to each other stat wise, with only texture differences? Are you saving those differences for the veteran warriors (which, by the way, I would rename to Chosen of Chaos)?

The Chaos Army book shows very specific bonuses for the chaos warriors marked by a specific god:

"Nurgle: causes fear." Can we use the fear used by camels against horses here? Make them cause fear against all infantry and cavalry.

"Tzeentch: Generates power dice." This will be very tricky, depends on how magic is handled. Not sure how you would do this.

"Slaneesh: immune to psychology". Thats easy, give them a high morale level.

"Khorne: Frenzy". Since we cant do extra attacks without changing the animations, maybe just give them slightly higher attack number?


Also, an idea to increase the Chaos players unit list in the Grand Campaign:

Have an event occur sometime into the game, similiar to Gunpowder, where the Chaos player is picked as Chosen of the Gods. Suddenly he can start to build warriors and demons from all four of the Chaos Gods.

It would be interesting if there was a chance for the computer to be picked instead (only if the event kept reocurring, so you would eventually be picked). If you want to increase your chances of becoming the Chosen One, you better start killing the other Chaos factions.

But the computer being selected is a side issue, the priority here would be for the player to have more units made available to him, so later into the game he can field armies with a large range of troop types, and doesnt feel penned into just Khorne marauders, Khorne warriors, Bloodletters, and thats it.

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Originally Posted by Jargon

Have an event occur sometime into the game, similiar to Gunpowder, where the Chaos player is picked as Chosen of the Gods. Suddenly he can start to build warriors and demons from all four of the Chaos Gods.

It would be interesting if there was a chance for the computer to be picked instead (only if the event kept reocurring, so you would eventually be picked). If you want to increase your chances of becoming the Chosen One, you better start killing the other Chaos factions.

But the computer being selected is a side issue, the priority here would be for the player to have more units made available to him, so later into the game he can field armies with a large range of troop types, and doesnt feel penned into just Khorne marauders, Khorne warriors, Bloodletters, and thats it.

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I am sure that as the mod progresses, all of the factions will be fleshed out for more variety like bwian said. Also, I still think, if possible, that the uniting of the four chaos factions should be done as a 'crusade-esque' type thing, if at all possible.

Events are global so if you had an event which allowed such a thing it would apply to everyone, you cant pick who they applied to. Also they're set by date so it would be a set thing which applied to every chaos faction regardless of how well they're doing. If theres a way to set conditions on events it might be doable but again it would apply to every one it could possibly apply to, not just whoever meets the conditions.

@ Gurkal, abandoned might be too strong a word but they've been left on the sidelines for a long time. I know theres a new book rumured but given the current release rate I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.

Jargon ... the idea is to have the more elite Chaos units as seperate units completely so we can do exactly what you outlined...they would have different strengths and weaknesses. The Chaos Warriors are one model, dressed with 4 skins for each faction. The marauders will be the same. These guys are basically Northmen warriors of verying skill and experience, and whilst they will have an alliegance to a particular Chaos Lord, they have not been long enough in service to 'change'. By the time you start recruiting hte verteran warriors and higher ranking warriors, they have been under the influence of their masters andwill have been 'gifted' with certain abilities and effects. This means we have to have seperate models, with seperate abilities and combat stats. Khorne's warriors have distinctive horns on their helmets....Nurgle's troops will have...er....unpleasant things. They will look distinctive, and will have strengths and weaknesses that go with them.

They will have become steadily less human and more Chaotic in proportion to their increased stats.

It would be nice if we could have some effects that cause a uniting of the chaos factions under a warleader.... but only if the game will let us do it in a realistic way. I would rather have no such events than one that had the potential to cause unrealistic alliances with other factions that we could not control.

I've got a suggestion. Some of us will want to play chaos so why not make Tzeentch playable? It's the only chaos faction that IMHO makes any sense to have as a playable faction. The rest have really got to be horde material, right?

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Originally Posted by Bwian

The lack of warmachines is something I have always wondered about in the armybooks. In my wargaming days, the chaos army was allowed to field rams and simple catapults. These were dressed up with chaos 'decorations' kit-bashed from spare soldier bits.

I know it's not canon...but it's a thought :clown:

The siege element will be interesting for Chaos factions. They will need to rely on rams to take out gates, and siege towers and ladders to scale the walls and storm them hand to hand. There is no real need to give them catapults to just bombard the enemy form a distance. Chaos doesn't approve of such cowardly tactics. Get in close and fight hand to hand.

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Well, Chaos don't give a crap about what seems coward or not, as long as it fit with its aim, no ?

I agree Khorne worshiper would hardly use long range artillery, as Khorne is looking for blood and blood only. But I see no reason why the other gods would not make use of artillery.

There will be four playable factions for Chaos. Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeench and Slaanesh. They will all be different to play, and will have some unit variations... but they will all be playable and not Horde.

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Originally Posted by Bwian

There will be four playable factions for Chaos. Khorne, Nurgle, Tzeench and Slaanesh. They will all be different to play, and will have some unit variations... but they will all be playable and not Horde.

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ok. Well that makes no sense to me, but you're the boss. Are we having any horde factions?

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Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

ok. Well that makes no sense to me, but you're the boss. Are we having any horde factions?

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It might be cool that since Beastmen won't make it into the playable faction list, they could be added as a horde faction that pops up in multiple points? them being a horde faction (and perhaps because I know nothing of the beastmen) their unit list can be really short/simple.

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Originally Posted by Dogman55

It might be cool that since Beastmen won't make it into the playable faction list, they could be added as a horde faction that pops up in multiple points? them being a horde faction (and perhaps because I know nothing of the beastmen) their unit list can be really short/simple.

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Beastmen are on the contrary very suitable for a playable faction since they have a social structure that fits great into the faction system of MTW2, and they've got plenty of units. They've even got their own army book.

Beastmen are probably the least suited of all the races to be a faction. They're completely nomadic and dont have permanent settlements, even temporary ones are nothing more than makeshift tents. As for a social structure, the biggest and hardest one is the leader, thats about as organised as these guys get. As for having them as hordes these are just factions without cities, without capturing settlements they wont last long. Hordes are a great way of representing migrations and invasions by a race thats off the map, but theres no justification for using them for the beastmen.

As for the other chaos factions they all come from the one area. If we made one static and three hordes the static one would just spend the whole game fighting off the other three. Having even just one of them as a horde just isnt going to work. First thing they'll hit is the empire, one of the biggest factions ingame who has friendly relations with most of its neighbours. We'd end up with no chaos faction ingame. Way things are now they have enough room to fight each other and if one of them comes out on top the lands to the south will start to come under sustained pressure, rather than just facing one big push with nothing behind it.

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Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

Beastmen are on the contrary very suitable for a playable faction since they have a social structure that fits great into the faction system of MTW2, and they've got plenty of units. They've even got their own army book.

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I thought I had read that the beastmen weren't in the initial release, that's why I suggested them for a mobile faction.

But it sounds like they'l be a playable faction as well. Guess no horde factions, eh?

Unplayable factions would seem like a waste, why deny anybody their ability to play their race? They're playable in Warhammer tabletop, after all!

Sounds great,as a lover of all things Slanneshi,I will be watching this,might be a stretch,but a unit of the lesser demons on each roster would be sweet,there is some great art work on the gw sight,and I have the Slanneshi bible which has some great art work,
gb

Oy Bwian when are the Chaos knights coming out bro? I cant wait. this is what i do everyday this mod is not out. :wall:

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Originally Posted by Casuir

As for the other chaos factions they all come from the one area. If we made one static and three hordes the static one would just spend the whole game fighting off the other three. Having even just one of them as a horde just isnt going to work. First thing they'll hit is the empire, one of the biggest factions ingame who has friendly relations with most of its neighbours. We'd end up with no chaos faction ingame. Way things are now they have enough room to fight each other and if one of them comes out on top the lands to the south will start to come under sustained pressure, rather than just facing one big push with nothing behind it.

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I won't argue the Beastmen point. I we use the term "suitable" differently. What I mean by "suitable" is that they aren't psychotic loons hellbent on destruction. And Total War is about changing history. What if the Beastmen decide to build an empire? But anyhoo I don't really care about the Beastmen so enough to argue this point.

Back to the Chaos issue.

The Mongols and the Timurids both come from the same area and it isn't a problem in MTW2, so I don't see why it should be for us. Another issue is that there is nothing in the army book that says that all chaos invasions are made like a straight line from the north wastes straight into the Empire. We can have them enter the map from any northern region, or even an eastern edge of the map if we want to. You're the one doing the map.

Just because "the great war against chaos" is described as a battle between chaos and Empire in the chaos army book doesn't mean it has to be so for us to. It is about changing history.

On top of this chaos is chaotic. They're suposed to be an unpredictable corrupting and devastating force in the game. I'd rather have them just like it. They are also described as a non-cohesive power acting at best very random. They only attack south when the northmost tribes have been displaced southwards for some reason.

But I'm sure my stance has been made clear long ago. My goal with this is to make a fun game true to the spirit of Warhammer rather than copying Warhammer history. The army books aren't crystal clear about much, and there's plenty of interpretation to be made. Above all I'm the first person to bend if there's another voice against mine. What ever we manage to produce I'm 100% sure it'll be great.

Chaos Spawns.

Are there any chances of seeing a spawn of chaos being implemented in the mod? I mean, they're just so good looking. In a warhammer kind of way, that is. <_<

I could understand how troublesome the 3d model would be though. :laugh4: And the animations!

Random, chaotic change is an essential part of Chaos, but there is a lot of guided direction taking place under the hood.

In the rule book, Champions of Chaos are described as taking a 'road to greatness.' Every few centuries a mortal champion is destined for the greatest blessings of Chaos, to become the Lord of the End Times, the Everchosen. It is his destiny to be coronated with the Crown of Domination, and to sweep the world away in a tide of bloodshed. This is epic stuff, entirely purposeful and non-random, and lends itself well to the crusading system.

Would the following steps work?

1) Make the four Chaos factions Christian

2) Add Papal States into the game, rename them Gate of Heaven (Or Chaos Gods, Warp Gods, whatever).

3) Place a Gate of Heaven city on the northernmost edge of the map, the site of its collapse centuries ago when the Old Ones left, bringing Chaos into the world.

4) Draw a body of water around it without any land bridges. Remove diplomats, spy’s, population problems or anything else that cause unrest, make it stable for eternity.

5) Create excellent relations between the four Chaos factions and Gate of Heaven. Remove Papal States concern over Christian factions attacking each other. Remove unnecessary Papal missions such as 'build a church' or 'purchase a priest'.

Would Crusades work this way?

Some obvious downsides:

-Keeping the Gates of Heaven royal family line alive. I guess making someone immortal is out of the question with MTW?

-A single'faction' would take up an entire religion slot, but that will be inevitable if crusading is added at all.

-There will be a strange faction on the kingdom list called "Gate of Heaven'. It will look out of place and serve no purpose to all the other factions. Anyway to hide this?

Who do we make the pope then? And what about the collage of cardinals hes elected from? And where exactly does the everchosen come into all of this? All I can see you being left with is a four way race to take a settlement rather than the chaos factions being united under one leader. A better way to realisticly do it would be to give the player a trait called the everchosen when hes defeated the other chaos factions and if possible link this to an event which gives them access to troops from other powers.

Anyways Bwian made a suggestion box for ideas like these, best to keep them there and keep threads like these for discussion here for the armylist. Might be best if you stuck you ideas on how to make the game more fun and less warhammer in there too dr zoidberg.
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=86038

That idea sounds very workable and simple Casuir (of course theres the problem of linking traits with unit production, but anyhoo). About the Suggestions thread, if people can't respond to ideas there, how will general discussion for non-army list stuff take place?

I thought I'd whip up a suggestion for a complete chaos unit list.

Personally I think we should use a different term than “veteran”, for level two marauders and warriors since IMHO it sounds a bit flat in this context. I’d rather we avoid using the names “veteran” or “expert” for anything through out the game since both terms are badly over used in the fantasy world.

How about “Battle-hardened Marauder”, “Devout Marauder”, “Zealot Marauder”? Or using differences in equipment and basing it on that; “Marauder Axe men”?

Or we can call the simplest Marauder unit “Northman” implying a commoner from the Northern Wastes rather than a warrior. And then the level two units we can call “Marauders”?

I’d also love to include Chaos Spawn somehow. The best would be if somehow chaos units can turn into spawns, (randomly). An annoying feature with chaos is that gifts can be too plentiful and turn the poor bastards into this, being quite useless for anything but defence.

No, they don't have any ranged units, (ie archers or artillery). It'll become a very interesting all assault kind of games when played.

Now, to the list.

How about?:

Infantry

Northman, (simplest marauder unit, light armour)
Marauder, (level two marauder, light armour)
Chaos Warrior, (heavy armour)

Cavalry

Marauder Scouts (lightest cavalry).
Mounted Marauders, (also light but better)


Faction specific units

Khorne

Special Abilities
All units may charge without orders.

Chaos Warriors of Khorne (chain mail)
Unmounted Chaos Knights of Khorne (full plate armour).
Chaos Knights of Khorne (full plate armour, Mounted on Warhorse)


Bloodletter or flesh hound (Are they even possible to make?)
Bloodthirster (greater demon, elephant unit)

Nurgle
Special Abilities
If it’s possible to give the rotting cow carcass ability to a unit all Nurgle units should have it automatically switched on for all of these.

Chaos Warriors of Nurgle (chain mail)
Unmounted Chaos Knights of Nurgle (full plate armour).
Chaos Knights of Nurgle (full plate armour, Mounted on Warhorse)

Plaugebearers
Great unclean one, (greater demon, elephant unit)

Note: A nurgling swarm unit would be cool. I have no idea how that would be implemented though

Slaanesh
Special Abilities
Very high moral for all units?

Chaos Warriors of Slaanesh (chain mail)
Unmounted Chaos Knights of Slaanesh (full plate armour).
Chaos Knights of Slaanesh (full plate armour, Mounted on Warhorse)

Daemonettes
Keeper of Secrets, (greater demon, elephant unit)

Tzeench
Special Abilities
I have no idea. Tzeench is Mr Magic so I’m not sure how this will translate to MTW2.

Chaos Warriors of Tzeench (chain mail)
Unmounted Chaos Knights of Tzeench (full plate armour).
Chaos Knights of Tzeench (full plate armour, Mounted on Warhorse)

Blue/Pink Horrors
Lord of Change, (greater demon, elephant unit)

Some things there are unfeasible, the rotting cow is an artillery projectile not a unit ability, elephants have a crew and can run amok whereas greater demons do not. Bar the demons the only new unit there is marauder scouts, and I dont see what use these would be.

Jargon I guess the idea behind the suggestions thread is that a lot of these suggestions are being made at a time when they're not ready to be implemented or tested and in threads which are about different things. The focus of the mod is getting the core mechanics ingame at the minute so suggestions which arent really relevant to those parts run the risk of getting forgotten about.

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Khorne
Special Abilities
All units may charge without orders.

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I was wondering how you would do this, then I remembered that certain units like French Knights can be a little impetuous, is that correct? If so, then a high Impetuous rating would be a great translation of Frenzy, along with a high attack/faster attack speed.

Splitting Marauders into a lighter and heavier version would give more strategic options, although that would depend on how many unit slots Bwian has to spare. There is a definite need for a simple Northmen unit as local peasant/militia, Marauders could the be more about attacking.

In Warhammer table top battles, mounted Marauders can also be armed with throwing axes, making them the sole Chaos 'archer' unit. Maybe the scouts you have proposed could be armed with short range javelins to fulfill a light skirmishing role? The normal Marauders could then be a bit beefier and harder hitting in comparison. The graphical differences between them could be minor, its more about giving tactical options.

Is there any situation in the MTW game where a unit can transform into another unit like you want the Chaos Spawn to do? Also, I thought this was something that happened to major characters with too many gifts, rather than whole units.

I would love for it to be possible to manipulate the rotting cow option. The uses for all things Nurgle would be tremendous.

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Originally Posted by Casuir

Some things there are unfeasible, the rotting cow is an artillery projectile not a unit ability

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Do you know this ability can't be utilised? Is it hardcoded? Is there some other way perhaps Nurgle could use the Rotting Cow Carcass? We could perhaps have some sort of artillery unit that shoots Nurgling swarms?

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Originally Posted by Casuir

elephants have a crew and can run amok whereas greater demons do not.

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The crew is just graphics. I'd judge it as pretty amazing if the "run amok" ability can't be switched off. It's just a matter of finding the right flag, right?

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Originally Posted by Casuir

Bar the demons the only new unit there is marauder scouts, and I dont see what use these would be.

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Bwian wanted two Marauder cavalry units. "Mounted Marauders" and "Veteran Mounted Marauders". I kept the units and just gave them prettier names.

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Originally Posted by Jargon

I was wondering how you would do this, then I remembered that certain units like French Knights can be a little impetuous, is that correct? If so, then a high Impetuous rating would be a great translation of Frenzy, along with a high attack/faster attack speed.

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This is not a problem.

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Originally Posted by Jargon

Splitting Marauders into a lighter and heavier version would give more strategic options, although that would depend on how many unit slots Bwian has to spare. There is a definite need for a simple Northmen unit as local peasant/militia, Marauders could the be more about attacking.

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If I understand it correctly, it's not the number of unit slots that's the problem, but the actuall work of making the graphics.

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Originally Posted by Jargon

In Warhammer table top battles, mounted Marauders can also be armed with throwing axes, making them the sole Chaos 'archer' unit. Maybe the scouts you have proposed could be armed with short range javelins to fulfill a light skirmishing role? The normal Marauders could then be a bit beefier and harder hitting in comparison. The graphical differences between them could be minor, its more about giving tactical options.

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You mean like Jinetes? I'd rather have them devoid of any ranged units. I like factions that are extreme in that they have one or more glaring weakness' that they have to be weary of and one or more strength that they have to utilize to win.

In Chaos I'd like to see them being extremly strong at melee but sucky in everything else, so the way they have to be played is to close the distance to your enemy fast. And also having some units that are extremly powerful, that even though they are good, they are few and expensive and need to be protected from flanking by the cheaper units.

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Originally Posted by Jargon

Is there any situation in the MTW game where a unit can transform into another unit like you want the Chaos Spawn to do? Also, I thought this was something that happened to major characters with too many gifts, rather than whole units.

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I'm just throwing out ideas. Chaos Spawn are suposed to be pretty large and attack anything at random. Why not have them like elephant units but that they "run amok" easily or automatically at the start of the game. But we somehow change their movement so it can hardly if at all move. They'll be great defensive units capable of blocking anything, but hazardous to your own units. The perfect unit to put at the city gate.

But I can't imagine spawns being at the top of the priority list to make because

1) I'm sure they're a bitch to make.
2) they aren't exactly useful (or shouldn't be)

The "run amok" ability can easily be added or removed from a unit. I have not tested how this ability works but it may be related to moral eg low moral = more likely to run amok.

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Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

Do you know this ability can't be utilised? Is it hardcoded? Is there some other way perhaps Nurgle could use the Rotting Cow Carcass? We could perhaps have some sort of artillery unit that shoots Nurgling swarms?

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Yes. No its not hardcoded. Nurgle dont have a unit which causes a similar effect so it cant be used. Nurgle units cause fear, that can be implemented.

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Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

The crew is just graphics. I'd judge it as pretty amazing if the "run amok" ability can't be switched off. It's just a matter of finding the right flag, right?

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The crew arent just graphics, they're an integral part of the model and the unit stats. The game will crash if the skeleton doesnt have a platform bone to attach the crew to, which means unique skeletons and animations for each demon. Theres a min no of soldiers per unit which may mean having multiple demons, likewise making the crew invisible may cause problems with units being unable to target them. The run_amok is a flag, forgot about that.

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Originally Posted by DrZoidberg

Bwian wanted two Marauder cavalry units. "Mounted Marauders" and "Veteran Mounted Marauders". I kept the units and just gave them prettier names.

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Ok, my bad.

@Bwian, I agree with jargon here about adding marauders armed with throwing axes or spears, its in the rules, v little work and gives the player a little more tacticl options. Shouldnt be as common as the ordinary marauders though.

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Originally Posted by Casuir

Yes. No its not hardcoded. Nurgle dont have a unit which causes a similar effect so it cant be used. Nurgle units cause fear, that can be implemented.

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Sometimes life sucks. Thanks for the info anyhow.

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Originally Posted by Casuir

The crew arent just graphics, they're an integral part of the model and the unit stats. The game will crash if the skeleton doesnt have a platform bone to attach the crew to, which means unique skeletons and animations for each demon. Theres a min no of soldiers per unit which may mean having multiple demons, likewise making the crew invisible may cause problems with units being unable to target them.

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Ok, so they'll have to be built from scratch. But I'm hoping modellers will think it's worth it anyway, please :) Chaos legions without greater demons is a bit like Spaghetti Bolognese without the spaghetti, no?

Having a small group of Greater Demons isn't a problem. There's no upper limit in the army book on how many greater deamons you can have.

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Originally Posted by Casuir

@Bwian, I agree with jargon here about adding marauders armed with throwing axes or spears, its in the rules, v little work and gives the player a little more tacticl options. Shouldnt be as common as the ordinary marauders though.

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I just realised an AI problem. The way the AI plays battles is that if he has any ranged weapons he'll use them until out of ammo and then charge with his infantry.

This means that if the AI plays chaos and has got limited/shitty ranged weapons, he will buy them and he will use them. While waiting for his throwing axes to run out he will put up his Marauders and Chaos warriors in pretty little ranks to make it really easy to shoot them to shreds before he charges with what little he has left. This will make them super easy to steamroll. This is the reason MTW2 battles is no fun once you've got musketeers.

For playability reasons I suggest Chaos has really good ranged units or none at all.

Abusing the unit is a problem. A Chaos army of axe throwing spammage would suck. Would giving them limited range and limited ammo solve the problem? Make them mostly useless, more of an annoying scout than anything else. Also maybe put a cap on them on the strategic production level?

There are a couple of options when it comes to axe-throwing marauders. If the old 'prec' flag still works, then we would have a volley of missiles and then a charge.

Failing that, we would give them a high attack value as a missile weapon, but only 2 rounds of ammo. This way, they would launch their quota of weapons very quickly, and then go in for hand-hand. You can set (as I recall) the skirmish state of troops by flags, which RTW could never do.

I don't mind giving Chaos some basic ranged weapons, but I would limit it to thrown spears or axes. Heavy hitting weapons with a short maximum range, and also very limited in ammo. The MOC axe throwers just shower limitless stocks of axes onto the enemy...laughable! Just where do they carry all these axes?

Anyway ... these are things I will test and see what works.

Demon wise ... I have a few ideas. I have done some fairly extreme things with RTW units... and I think we can find a way to implement this sort of unit. It's not a priority though... we have a lot more core units to do first. Watch this space :laugh4:

So are beasts are choas in? are they a seperate faction, mixed in with the other choas factions? (I hope so) will there be rebels of them?

And what ones will there be?
Quick one down of all the ones mentioned in the army rule book (Including there TT Stats)



Gor 7 pts M 5 (Can't change speed of units, so make them have a lot of stamina) WS 4 BS 3 (Not sure how to impelement this help with sheild perhaps?) S 3 T 4 (Treat a bit like armour)W 1, I 3 A 1 (Attacks) LD 6 (Treat Like morale)

Ungor 4 pts M 5, WS 3, BS 3, S 3, T 4, W 1, I 3, LD 6

Foe-Render (The squad leader) M 5, WS 4, BS 3, T 4, W 1, I 3, A 2, LD 7

All those units are in the same group, and use a skrimish formation the Gors / Foe render can use 2x hand weapons (Big 1 handed cleaver axe or a big blade of metal more than a sword) Or a hand weapon and a sheild (All most be equipted with the same weapon set in a squad)

Ungors have long spears and sheilds

Special rules: Raiders (Just use the skirmish formation) Ambush (Let them hide in long grass and woods) Unruly (Whats the name of the thing which barbian units in RTW had which encouraged them to charge?)
CANNOT RECEIVE MARKS OF CHOAS

You can get away with having ungors and gors in seperate groups

Bestigor Herd

Bestigor: M 5, WS 4, BS 3, S 4, T 4, W 1, I 3, A 1, LD 7


Gourge horn (Leader): M 5, WS 4, BS 3, S 4, T 4, W 1, I 3, A 2, LD 7

Both have great weapons, and heavy armour, There renamed when they have a mark of choas:

Khorne: Khorngors
Nurgle: Pestigor
Tzeentch: Tzaangors
Slanesh: Slaangors


Warhounds

Warhound: M 7, WS 4, BS 0, S 3, T 3, W 1, I 3, A 1, LD 5

Uses claws or fangs :)

Thats the troops... I will muck about with the rest later (PM IF I FORGET :grin: )

Uh oh, can anyone edit posts? May want to get rid of those stats ASAP.

If you look at the faction conversion list of the forums (Its a topic) I believe thats the final list of whos making the initial release for the mod. If there not there, then I can imagine they'll make an appearence in a coming release.

Hell cannons should be ok for any of the chaos factions, if i remember right they have a demon bound to it so it wouldn't be having a weapon do the dirty work for you but rather having a demon spew forth warp energy that explodes on impact.

Just make them cost loads in upkeep so you don't have them rolling around with every stack.

Why isn't the Chaos thread a sticky, but all the over factions are? The Dark Princes feelings is being really hurt now. ~:mecry:

Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch are, hopefully, now pacified. The thread is stickied

Hey I am new here, but am very glad to see someone creating this mod. So keep up the good work.
If I might make some suggestions about names of unit, save us having veteran marauders. Call the base level thugs, as they were in the old days (Warhammer Armies 1989), then marauders.
Like wise, I am sure I don't need to say, Warriors and Chosen.

Also If I may make a suggestion about the Daemons, and raise a point about the inclusion of Greater Daemons. As a large stack of Greater Deamons is undesirable and debabtebly out of character, would it be better to tie them to guilds, meaning only one city could produce Greater Daemons, and at a relatively slow rate. It would also have the advantage of allowing the other armies access to their Daemonic allies, ie. Dark elves and Slaanesh.

Sorry if this should of been posted somewhere else.

I do not think there is a really good way to implement greater demons. They are not 'units' ... more individuals, and that doesn't sit well with the M2TW game engine. Not 100% set in stone ...but I don;t think the greater Chaos powers will be on the battlefield.

Expect all the lower orders of demonkind... and the human / sort-of-used-to-be-human ones too:beam:

It is possible to decrease a units number of troops to any number on RTW
but I'm not really sure about decreasing on MTW2. So if there is no way to
decrease a unit too 1 for the greater deamon then best not bother having them.:thumbsdown:

Lowest I have achieved without a crash is 5 in the unit text file ( which is 6 when you include the general model ) for a soldier unit. On 'huge' you will get 12 ( 13 with general ) on the unit.

No lower, I am afraid.

Muck around with elephants again possibly?

Nope ... it's not like RTW in this respect. Elephants bring more problems than solutions here!

Soon to appear in screenshots ....

Elite Khorne marauders
Marauder missile troops ( spear throwers )

Next to build ... Elite marauders for the other factions, and the Chaos Knights

cool:beam:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bwian

Soon to appear in screenshots ....

Elite Khorne marauders
Marauder missile troops ( spear throwers )

Next to build ... Elite marauders for the other factions, and the Chaos Knights

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Eeeexcellent!

As for the differences between Khorne/Nurgle/Slaanesh/Tzeentch: will the differences between, say, an Elite Khorne Marauder and an Elite Tzeentch Maurader just be different textures, or will they have different geometry too? Or will the lesser units just be texture changes, with the unique/elite units having geometrical differences (Khorne's helms, Slaanesh's spikes, Nurgle's bots and boils).

I think a lot can be done on the textural level for the units and saving time/space modeling wise, but obviously the more "touched" you are by your chosen deity, the more different and outlandish your appearance.

Also, will the different Chaos factions have their own general model, or will they all share a generic general model?

Generals are defined by culture, so they will be generic.

As the models go up the 'scale' they will cease to be the same models. The basic marauder and chaos warriors are the same mesh with different skins. The 'elite' marauders are not. The khorne ones are geared up with a bit more armour and a load of 'spikes' and some Khorne type crests on the helmet.. that sort of thing.

The Nurgle ones will be diseased, pale and showing more visible signs of corruption. Those of the 'Lord of Change' will be showing distorted heads, tentacles .... and so on. On the Marauders it will not be all that pronounced...but they will be varied for each faction.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bwian

As the models go up the 'scale' they will cease to be the same models. The basic marauder and chaos warriors are the same mesh with different skins. The 'elite' marauders are not. The khorne ones are geared up with a bit more armour and a load of 'spikes' and some Khorne type crests on the helmet.. that sort of thing.

The Nurgle ones will be diseased, pale and showing more visible signs of corruption. Those of the 'Lord of Change' will be showing distorted heads, tentacles .... and so on. On the Marauders it will not be all that pronounced...but they will be varied for each faction.

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niiice.
:laugh4:
Also are the tentacles going to animated?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bwian

As the models go up the 'scale' they will cease to be the same models. The basic marauder and chaos warriors are the same mesh with different skins. The 'elite' marauders are not. The khorne ones are geared up with a bit more armour and a load of 'spikes' and some Khorne type crests on the helmet.. that sort of thing.

The Nurgle ones will be diseased, pale and showing more visible signs of corruption. Those of the 'Lord of Change' will be showing distorted heads, tentacles .... and so on. On the Marauders it will not be all that pronounced...but they will be varied for each faction.

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This is really great to hear Bwian, I know the extra work will take a lot of your time but I am sure it will be greatly appreciated by all of us. The finished product should be great. :yes:

Unfortunately, I don;t think the tentacles are going to be really any more animated than an arm ...otehrwise I am stuck with making
a) A whole lot more skeletons and animations
b) Making ALL the soldiers in the unit moving the same way.

Great idea... but not really possible without huge amounts of work for a tiny detail.

ok Bwian thanks for getting back to me.:2thumbsup:

Are Chaos going to ultimately be the one religion? I think that splitting the Gods into seperate entities is a good idea but of course, with limited options I wondered how you were showing the cultural things.

apologies if been asked before, not seen anything covering this *blushes*

Culturally, things are a little undecided, but in terms of gameplay, having seperate factions gives us some much-needed variation in factions up north.

Regarding different religions it is possible to have up to 7 religions in M2TW (including heretic). I'm unsure if the settlement details scroll has the space to display more religions.

daemons army units:
http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefr...orignav=300808

That's from warmaster, not warhammer.

Those miniatures are indeed from Warmaster ... but the creatures are also listed in the Chaos Daemon armybook and the Chaos creatures are things I would like to be able to add if at all possible. It really depends how much flexibility I can get out of a skeleton. If we would need a unique skeleton and animation set for each, then that might preclude them for a first release.

Some of the more 'human' shaped creatures will be included from the outset.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by overkill1991

That's from warmaster, not warhammer.

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"Warmaster" is "Warhammer". Don't confuse "Warhammer tabletop" with "Warhammer" in general. "Warhammer" is a universe, and not a game.

I don't have chaos armybook so I don't know what the followers of different chaos gods think about each other, but could they start as allies?:inquisitive:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by King Of Finland

I don't have chaos armybook so I don't know what the followers of different chaos gods think about each other, but could they start as allies?:inquisitive:

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Internal Chaos relations aren't particularly amiable. Khorne and Slaanesh followers hate each other more than they hate anything else in the entire WH universe. Tzeentch and Nurgle followers aren't as bad but hate each other to.

The various gods are ideologically four extreme opposites and have no reason to cooperate about anything. Khornates aren't capable to cooperating with anybody. Nurgle followers don't care. Slaaneshis and Tzeenchians might.

Yeah, only time they unite is for a horde of Chaos Undivided (think Archaon and his entire force and youu get the idea of what I'm talkn' about).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jubal_Barca

Yeah, only time they unite is for a horde of Chaos Undivided (think Archaon and his entire force and youu get the idea of what I'm talkn' about).

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Chaos undivided isn't that the four major chaos gods unite. That's a misunderstanding. The number of chaos gods in the WH universe is virtually infinite. The four big ones are only just that. The big ones, where Slaanesh is by far the largest. If I remember correctly, Chaos undivided are Chaos armies where each warrior or unit has their own allegiance, (often to lesser gods) and have banded together to bolster their numbers.

It's also a way for people to combine their various chaos armies into a big one without having to repaint all their miniatures. It's a pragmatic solution to aid table-top players with finite resources in having more fun.

i think Slaanesh is the younger,and so they calling him a prince,and i believe khorne is the greatest,but never mind....:egypt:

Chos undivided is a chaos army who do NOT follow a single god.

Its that easy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alexader

i think Slaanesh is the younger,and so they calling him a prince,and i believe khorne is the greatest,but never mind....:egypt:

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Each god has their own distinct mythos. Slaanesh isn't called prince because some other god is king. There's no relation. I had the mission to write the unit descriptions for the mod for chaos, so I've done plenty of research on this. Slaanesh is both the youngest and the biggest. I don't recall how big Khorne is compared to the remaining two but I can always look it up. I have all the books here.

ok i don't know if khorne is called king but i know from the six edition(and in many more)rulebook that slannesh is called a prince,and if you did that research that you are telling,you propably should have noticed that,it is mentioned too many times in the books that he is called a prince of chaos.i am not arguing with you,relax.but i am defenetly sure that he is called a prince and he is defenetly not the biggest one,he is the younger one.:egypt: (but for sure look it up if you have many books)

nurgle is the oldest i think as its "grand father nurgle"
not that this makes a difference to the mod as they are all the same faction :clown:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enthes

nurgle is the oldest i think as its "grand father nurgle"
not that this makes a difference to the mod as they are all the same faction :clown:

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Of age or size I know nothing, but I do know that it's just plain "Father Nurgle", and that he's always depicted as always laughing and being jolly. The bringer of long awaited decay. Nurgle was always my favourite, but I've recently gotten Slaanesh leanings. Nothing better than naked chicks, even if they do have bug eyes and crab claws.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bwian

Those miniatures are indeed from Warmaster ... but the creatures are also listed in the Chaos Daemon armybook and the Chaos creatures are things I would like to be able to add if at all possible. It really depends how much flexibility I can get out of a skeleton. If we would need a unique skeleton and animation set for each, then that might preclude them for a first release.

Some of the more 'human' shaped creatures will be included from the outset.

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Most Deamons are a basic humanoid shape, Bloodletters, Plaguebearers, Deamonettes, all these have 2 arms and 2 legs.

Other deamons that could be used, Flamers of Tzeench and Chaos Horrors they have a basic humanoid frame.

Dragon Ogres would be amazing to use but would be difficult to create i think, can you murge a horse and its rider into 1 model?

And the Chaos undivided is when the 4 Factions of chaos unite to support a "lord of end times" who is a great champion of no one faction.

Other than the time of "the lord of end times" all factions despise one and other and the only faction that forms any sort of allience is the Dark Elves and Slaanesh.
The Chaos Dwarves were allied to Chaos but were discontinued due to lack of interest from gamers.

Skaven will always work with Nurgle, Slaanesh has a following in DE, and Chaos Dwarfs still exist in the fluff (and therefore potentially in mods, although this one is quite sensibly not putting them as one off thier first factions).

Quote:

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Dragon Ogres would be amazing to use but would be difficult to create i think, can you murge a horse and its rider into 1 model?

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Bwian did it for centurs in RTW...

P.S. Screamers of Tzenteech I've done like riderless horses for RTW (although again you can sometimes get a captain sitting on one, no idea how to get round that)

it will be a god idea if one chaos faction kill the other ,it's would have some special units and building;like big deamons or something like this.

Im thinking somthing like jihad wuld work for chaos.. (mostly for orcs tho) But i think we are limited to one jihad faction..
In kingdoms, apache had a crusade called the warpath.. Wuld be perfect, as its faction spesific, not religion.

Isn't Chaos Undivided a religious path of it's own?
I know that it gets Furies in WH40k, not so sure about Warhammer...
Chaos doing a jihad could be ok, if you can code the rebel chaos to respond to a Jihad.
Perhaps you could give the Captain of the Screamers unit a Disk of Tzeentch?

Personally, I always considered the 'undivided' as being rather sat on the fence!

Other than that, let me just say....

"Blood for the Blood God!"

And then rampage through the thread deleting and editing your foul blasphemies that claim any other greater than Khorne.