Kobavelli's The Prince : a guide to breeding the perfect statesman.

The question pops up fairly often on all TW boards : "how do I make more cash FFS ?!". Us grizzled veterans almost always answer "well, build roads, ports, farms, mines, and send merchants to Timbuktu". But there is another, or rather, an additionnal way to make teh $$$ : governors. Good, honest governors. They alone can almost double your cities' income, if well trained, fed and groomed.

We all know that dumping a governor inside a settlement boosts its income somehow. Some are better than others at this game, and with so many traits and factors to take into account, it's not always easy to find out who to use where. Some use the empirical method : get him out of his city, then back in, and check the difference, and most of us don't know, or don't really care, what makes a general better at governing a given city, nor how to make him even better.

Because yes, just as base iron becomes sword or ploughshare, verily I tell thee, there's a way to train and breed the perfect statesman.

EDIT : there's obviously also a way to train and breed the meanest, most savage fighting machine this side of the Terminator. And you can find how in this thread

But first things first, some basic considerations :



A] Who to train ?, a.k.a. Suffer little children to come unto me.

Don't use the few starting generals you're saddled with at the beginning of a campaign for this, no matter how good they might be. Use those only to boost your early income, but do not train them actively.

Considering the time needed to train them, the costs involved and the simple fact that you'll want to profit from their skills to the fullest in their appointed region, you will want a 16 year old boy for your budding governor, and nothing else. Untill your faction has a few of these young bucks, don't build anything except military buildings and armorers. No churches, no farms, no roads, no mines, no town halls and for the love of god no priests nor merchants. Get your early cash through missions, selling trade rights/alliances and sacking.
Yes, that means a slow start. Consider it a good thing : the AI will be that more challenging :beam: .

Also, generals who are born with interesting traits should definitely be set aside for training.
Fighters are a dime a dozen, but good governors are rare. Traits to look for are : Smart/Intelligent, Good Trader, Servant of Heaven, Energetic, Mathematician, Rabblerouser, Austere, Sober, Honest, Miserly, Rational, Cheapskate, Stoic and Prim, the bolded ones being especially good.

If you are lucky enough to get a princess with the "Intelligent" trait, be sure to flog her to a governor as well, as it will give him the Wife is Wise trait which is a great boost. Otherwise, read Durallan's guide to pruning your family tree, he's written a very good article on the use and care of princesses.



B] Chivalry or Dread ?, a.k.a. Killing them with kindness

All other things being equal, it doesn't really matter wether your governors are saints or bastards. Chivalrous governors usually get traits giving them more population loyalty, but Dreafull ones often get bonuses to law, and with militia slots public order isn't usually a problem, except in regions far away from your capital or with religious issues.
That being said, piety is important for governors, and chivalrous traits often give piety as well and vice versa. Meaning chivalry is probably the way to go except for Muslim factions and Byzantium (see ancillary section to get why)



C] Where to govern ?, a.k.a. The right tool for the job

Hammers are for nails, screwdrivers for screws. To get the very best out of a given governor, and considering that you'll be hard pressed to train them to be good at every single aspect of getting you more dough, you need to know your provinces, in both their good and their bad points, and to specialize their governors accordingly.

A province's income comes from four things :
- Taxes. That's only related to population, and not an important factor in the decision, as it's easy to get generals good at taxing, and population sorts itself out in time.

- Trade. While every town and castle generates a modicum of trade through imports and exports both by sea and land, some provinces are clearly at an advantage in this field. Provinces with a coast, provinces bordering another faction, provinces with multiple ressources, provinces with rare and expensive ressources, all of these factors make a good trade region. Considering how hard and expensive to get are good tradesmen, you need to identify the very best trade regions in your empire. Antioch, Vienna, Venice, Naples, Constantinople and Cairo are good examples. The New World too, obviously.
Note that you can make these regions even more profitable by building a Merchant or Explorer's Guild there as well.

- Mining. As of 1.2, quite a lot of provinces have now access to mines, but only a few of them are really worth it. It's somewhat easy to get a good mining governor, but the cost is steep, and you'll only want one if the mining ressources are worth it in the long run. Vienna, Timbuktu, Zagreb, Stockholm are good examples of mining cash cows.

- Farming. Easily overlooked, and harder to train than mining or taxing, some provinces can make twice more money through farming than through taxes. Plus of course developping farms means getting more taxable peons, a win-win situation. Good farming regions are those which have a high base_farming value in the descr_regions.txt file. The good farming regions are : Cairo, Paris, Cholula, Tenochtitlan, Budapest, Constantinople, Milan, Venice, Marseilles, Naples, Baghdad, Antioch, Nicosia and Alexandria ; and while building farms is always a good investment in and of itself, you'll want governors good at farming in those specific places. Incidentally, those regions will also grow faster, hence yielding you that more in taxes.

Also note that while early on you can pretty much build every building available and are only hindered by population (i.e. wall) levels, as your cities grow and buildings become more expensive and take longer to build you will definitely have to specialize them. Guilds only compound the issue. So identify your key cash provinces, those with good growth, good farms, good trade or good mines, build cash buildings and academias there and have them governed by pros at all times. The rest can be devoted to spying, improved militia training, armories, military academies, priest training, assassination, fleet building, canons and siege engines or whatever, and governed by lesser governors, i.e. ones who only need Good Taxman and are not utter loons.


D]What to train ?, a.k.a. Eugenics 101

The first and most obvious (and easy) thing to look for is piety. In M2TW, piety is the equivalent of the Acumen stat from RTW, each additionnal Piety "halo" giving a bonus to the city's global income.

Then there are specific, learned traits boosting each aspect of a province income, that is Taxes, Farms, Mines and Trade, each by 10 to 30%
Academic skills can be learned that also boost Taxes and Trade, but not mining nor farming

Some genetic/family traits which can not be learned in any obvious or safe way give slight boosts

Finally, you'll want traits which counteract or stave off the umpteen bad traits that can turn a brilliant administrator into a drunken gambling wretch with expensive tastes, and which more often than not come from the same sources which make you truely wealthy.



E]How to train ?, a.k.a. Finally, he's getting to the frickin' point.

The meat and potatoes of this thread, let's review the traits and attributes that make a good governor, and how to get them.

Note that throughout the text, when I say "build something" it means the general has to be in town on the LAST TURN of the building process. That is to say if you want your general to profit from the building of a small farm which takes 2 turns to build you can put it in the queue without the governor being in town, then bring him next turn. This is an important mechanism, as you can optimize a governor's training process by having him cycle between 2-3 close towns and synchronize building completions so that he can hop in, get credit, then ride off to the next town etc... Especially important later in the campaign when buildings take longer to get built.



E.1] Piety, a.k.a. "We'll need priests. Lots of them."

Piety is fairly easy to come by. First of all, any and all generals start with 3/10 piety barring any bad trait like Superstitious, Feck or Public Atheism, and there are five main ways you can get more : crusading, ReligiousActivity, PublicFaith, ForcedReligious and TouchedByTheGods.

Crusading is fairly straightforward : answer the call, ship off to whatever den of cursed heretics has earned the wrath of the man in the funny hat and hopefully conquer it will get you the Grand Crusader trait, for a whopping 3 Piety and assorted Chivalry. Muslim factions have an equivalent trait for successful Jihad leaders.

PublicFaith has 4 levels, each giving one point in Piety. It can be gained by sitting around in a town that has a religious building (15% chance for 1 point every turn), by having a father with the trait (20% for 1 point) , by being born with a cathedral or better (or jama or better) anywhere in your empire, and lastly simply by being born (4% flat, with increased chances if you're playing as HRE, Spain, Milan or Poland, and always one point for all Muslims). This cannot really be trained, you'll have to rely on that 15% chance each turn. Expect 2 or 3 points from that over a governor's lifespan.

ReligiousActivity also has 4 levels, and is gained through building all kinds of churches as well as training priests, one point for each. Note that you'll also get chivalry by building churches. The max level is reached with 12 points, meaning you can get there by building 4 small chapels, training the 4 priests, then upgrading all 4 to small church. You can also build a small chapel, destroy it then rebuild it on next turn but beware if you're playing a catholic faction, as the pope is not too keen on destroyed churches.

ForcedReligious you get by getting tried for heresy and surviving. A general can also get it randomly by surviving a disaster, and a bug in the game somehow makes generals check that trigger each and every turn, albeit it's a very low chance (5% of 4% IIRC). Sadly, the same trigger can also make them Superstitious, which is bad, and can pass down to their offsprings, which is why you want the Rational trait. All in all, this trait cannot really be trained, but welcome the sight of an inquisitor in your region : in 1.2 they very, very rarely succeed their trials, so if one gets close to your governor, you can gamble on it and evict every other possible target for the inqui and hope for the best.

Lastly, you can only get TouchedByTheGods at birth, but not only is it a very good trait (giving +2 to +4 Piety), it's also self propagating, meaning it gets better all by itself over time. The bad news is that having it means you can get neither Rational nor Sane, and you could very well wind up with a Superstitious or even mad governor.

EDIT : pete101 has found out that the King's piety influences the income of EVERY city/castle you own. Send him on a crusade already !


E.2] Taxes, a.k.a. The second certain thing in life.

At least early in the campaign, this is the main way by which you get cash. It is also the skill that all governors should try and devellop no matter which province you want them to eventually rule. Thankfully, it is also very easy to get the main trait which helps with them, GoodTaxman. Other good traits are Austere, Intelligent and MathematicSkill, Cheapskate and Miselry, while Sobriety, Prim, Austere and Upright will ward your governor against negative tax traits like gambling, drinking, embezzling, expensive tastes etc... Let's see what we can do about that.

You have 75% chances to get one point in Good Taxman every time you complete a building in a settlement that also has taxes set to Very High and disillusioned loyalty (the little blue face), and you only need three points in it to get to the last level which gives 30% bonus to taxes. It's a huge bonus. Get it ASAP by sending the militia out when you complete something and keeping a modicum of religious unrest in your regions.

If the governor has a Wise wife, that's 5 to 15% bonus to taxes as well.

Intelligence and MathematicSkill are very hard to come by early in the campaign as you'll have to rely on pure luck at birth (with a bonus there if you're Danish or Muslim), but can be gotten easily by having academic buildings later on. Not only do they increase a general's chances of being intelligent at birth, but staying in a settlement that has them has good chances of giving them both traits, as do completing the buildings themselves. They also give good ancillaries, so make sure your would-be governors spend a few turns in an academic town or castle if they have no better stuff to do.

The bad news is that unless your empire reaches a population level that allows you to build City Halls or academias, all your generals will have a chance to become Ignorant each and every turn - but a Cruelly Exacting Taxman who's also Blissfully Ignorant still provides a 20% tax bonus, so it's not too bad.

Prim and Upright both come mainly from staying in a town or castle that has a religious building in it, and since you're already doing that to get more Piety, your governors shouldn't become corrupt arsemonkeys too easily, though you'll also need Austere and Sobriety to be totally safe from the worst of traits.

Tough luck on Austere: you can only get it at birth, from the father, or by sitting in enemy lands. Your governor has better things to do with his time, which is why I marked it down as a trait to watch for earlier.

Sobriety is so-so : you'll likely have it if your father is a drunkard, but the only other way save being born with it is to get married of have children while already having a drinking problem. But since Drink is probably the easiest bad trait you can wind up with, and one of the worst with Gambling and ExpensiveTastes, count yourself very lucky if you get a Sober, Austere general at birth. You might even consider training and adopted or married general if he's not too old and he comes with theses traits.



E.3] Mining, a.k.a. Things that go *clink* in the night

This one will be short, as there's only one trait which gives a bonus to it (GoodMiner), and no trait whatsoever that comes with a negative.

GoodMiner has three levels, and you'll need 5 points in it to reach the third level. You get 1 point every time you complete either a basic mine or a mining complex. That's it, it's that simple.
Obviously, there are two ways to get the points : travel around like a door-to-door mine salesman, or building a mine, destroying it, and re-building it.

The first solution has no downside : your general will get his points, and all mines more than buy themselves in the long run, no matter how meagre their income might be.

For the second solution you have to compute wether a governor with 30% bonus on a given mine will offset the cost of building/destroying a basic mine during his lifetime.
A basic mine costs 2000 florins. IIRC, destroying a building gives you back 1/3 its building cost, 650ish florins in this case. You'll need to build 3 basic mines, destroy them, then build one more and finally the mining complex.

Easy math : Good Miner costs 4*2000 + 3500 - 3*650 = 9500ish florins.

A governor getting Good Miner at age 20 and dying at 60 will give you 80 turns' worth of that 30% mining bonus. Say you park him in Vienna, the mining complex of which yields a bit more than 1100 florins per turn. 30% of that is 330 florins. 330*80 = 26.400 florins. Definitely worth it.
The same Good Miner governing an average mining province (350 for a mining complex) gives us 110 florins per turn, or 8800 florins. Not worth it, better to just let him get the basic 10% bonus he'll get for building the mine complex.

Please feel free to redo my math if I'm wrong about the 1/3 refund thing.

! IMPORTANT EDIT !
All of this is completely correct, and a testimony to my intellectual brilliance, except for one thing I forgot to check : you can't destroy mines once you've built them.
And considering how relatively rare they are, and they only have 2 levels (compared to farms, which have 4) makes this trait at least on par with GoodFarmer on the difficulty scale, and once again once your first generation keels over, it will be extra hard to train another.

Which leaves us with only two options : the door-to-door pick salesman thing, or modding mines to be destroyable somehow (I just checked the export_buildlings.txt file, and there's no toggle for it there, so I'm stumped for now).


E.4] Farming, a.k.a. The fat of the land

Another easy one, but a bitch to train. Only one trait helps with this (GoodFarmer), and you'll need 12 points in it to reach the last level. You get 2 points for building any farm level, plus whatever points you're born with (Egypt has a bonus to GoodFarmer at birth). So build any 6 farms and you're set.

The trick is that unlike churches, mines or ports, you cannot destroy farms by any means whatsoever, and as farm levels go by each level gets increasingly longer and more expensive to build.
Thankfully the AI doesn't seem to invest much in farms, so conquest can be a way to get more farmland to improve, although obviously not always in convenient regions that are close to your governor's final target.

All of that means that while it's a very easy trait to come by early on when you only have to build slash-and-burn then communal in three cities, when your first generation of GoodFarmers die off, you'll have a tough time breeding another. So make sure you build only what farms you REALLY NEED, and make sure there's a strapping young lad in town when you do.

As a sidenote, sitting in a town that has farms+3 or farms+4 has a good chance of giving the Overseer ancillary, which also helps with farming and mining.



E.5] Commerce, a.k.a. Outright Theft

That's one's the real pain. The main trait, Good Trader, has insane thresholds. GoodAdministrator is very chancy. The other good trait (Epicurean) comes from buildings which also give you a slew of bad ones.
Then again Trade is probably the cheesiest path to wealth, it gets so huge.

Let's deal with the bad traits first, since they're the same that get in the way of taxation : once again you'll want a Prim, Upright and hopefully Sober and Austere kid for the job to avoid Corruption, Gambling, Drinking, Expensive Tastes etc...

Good Trader, like I said, is insane, and quite possibly a trait overlooked in the 1.2 overhaul.
Like the other Good Such-and-such it has three levels, but you'll need no less than 48 POINTS in it to reach the third, and 12 for the frickin' first. You get 2 points per merchant trained, 2 points per market-type building, 3 for ports, 1 for roads, 3 for merchant banks, 3 for caravan stops and 1 for merchant docks (80% of the time only). Oh, and you'll lose one point for each turn you spend in a town that hasn't at least a corn exchange, to make things interesting.

Now let's review that. Imagine you have a clear Huge Town at your disposal, unlikely as it is, with only a corn market in place so that your governor doesn't get Bad Trader before he's even gained one point.
- Stone roads, that's 2 points in 3 turns
- Merchant's quarter, that's 10 points in 22 turns
- Naval drydock, that's 12 points in 16 turns
- Merchant Vault, that's 6 points in 10 turns
- Docklands : 2,4 points in 14 turns
- caravanersary : 6 points in 6 turns

Total : 38 points in a whopping 71 turns, and that's only if you're playing the Moors as they are the only faction with caravans. Meaning you'll also need to train at least 5 merchants to finally reach the last level of the trait. But then you'll only get to reap its benefits for approx. 10 turns, before the governor dies.
On the upside, if you get the trait at birth, you'll start with 12 points in it, meaning you only need 30 more (12 for the second level). A few factions have more chances of getting good traders at birth, namely the Venitians, Milanese and Portuguese.

The fastest way to accrue points in this trait is to build the basic port and destroy it, over and over again. It'll take you 16 docks and 32 turns to get there, plus 8.800 florins, and that's without factoring in the loss of trade you incur by not having a basic port in a coastal province.
Forget about doing that with the corn exchange, as every turn without it will give your governor one point of Bad Trader.

Frankly, I'd say don't bother. Building markets, ports and banks as you're wont to do and training a bunch of merchants will give you the first rank (10% bonus), and that's probably as good as you're going to get unless your governor was born with said 12 points. If he was, you might want to have him do the port thing a couple of times in a castle to speed him up on his way to level 2 (20% bonus), but that's about it.

Good Administrator will net you a 10% bonus when you have 12 points in it, but the only way to get points is to crank your taxes to Very High : 3% chance every time a unit is trained, 7% every time a building is built, 7% each turn if loyalty is in the green and your governor has spent at least 3 turns in town (preventing your from training him over several towns), 5% if loyalty is in the blue. So you see, it's very hit-or-miss, and you'll be very lucky to get those 12 points. Get your taxes to Very High, now, and keep an enforcer around for when the brigands spawn.

Intelligent, Wife is Wise and MathematicSkill we already covered.

Epicurean will give you 10% with 8 points in it, but also reduce your bribe resistance by 30%. Beware those roving diplomats.
You'll eventually get points in it by sitting in a town that has Public Baths, Artist Studio, Theatre or a Pleasure Palace (5% chance each turn) or by letting your treasury get over 50.000 florins, and once you have it it'll also get better over time.
The downside is that all those buildings can give you such lovely traits as Aesthetic (ruins command and increases squalor, countered by Austere), ExpensiveTastes (a whopping -30% in taxes and trade when full blown, countered by Austere), Girls (ruins Chivalry and popularity, countered by Prim or Upright), Gambling (-20% trading, no counter) and Drinking (-10% taxes, countered by Sober). The worst offender in the list is the pleasure palace, so keep your spying off your trading. Once your governor has that first point in Epicurean, feel free to destroy those buildings if you don't need them.

As you can see, getting bonuses to trade is quite hard, and you'll probably have only one or two trading governors at any given time, if that, so you have to identify your best trading regions fairly often (trade is fickle, it changes with your own trade buildings as well as those of other factions, trade agreements and wars, disasters etc...) and ship them there ASAP.



F] Ancilliaries, a.k.a. Can I bring my friend ?

Finally, let us deal with notable ancillaries. I won't detail every single one because there's a LOT of them, and most only give a marginal bonus. Here are the easiest and best ones :

Academic Advisor gives 5% to trade and taxes, and you have 33% chance to get him when completing any academic building, so make sure whenever you finish one, a good governor is around.

Mathematician gives 5% to trade and taxes, and you have 10% chances to pick him up each turn you spend in a town/castle with any academic building, but the northern european factions can't (France, England, Scotland, Danes, HRE).

Money_Counter gives 10% to tax and 5% to trade, and you have 8% chance to get him each turn if in a city with a fairground or better, but middle eastern factions can't.

Treasurer gives 5% to tax and trade, you have 10% chance to get him each turn in a city with a merchant quarter, but northern european factions can't.

Overseer gives +1 farming and +1 mining, and you have 10% chance to get him in a town/castle with farms+2 or better

Scribe gives 10% to trade, and you have 10% chance to get him if in a town with both an alchemist lab or better and a town hall or better

Muslims and the Byzantines also get a 20% chance to get the awesome Slaver (+15% trade) for each building completed but only if the governor has 4+ Dread.



F] Short Version, a.k.a. What should have been on top of this thread

- check your good provinces to determine what their main source of income is.
- select a newborn general and train him extensively in Good Taxman plus whatever Good fits said province
- dump him there and have him build churches and train priests. Lots of them.
- roll in the dough.


And that's all you have to know to GET $RICH$ QUICK !!1$!1 :egypt:

On to part deux : Kob Tsu's Art of War : the guide to breeding the perfect warmonger.

I disagree on your notion of piety. Piety is only good at either 0 or max. Anything in between tends to cause more religious unrest.
For a province with low OwnReligion, you want a low piety governor. For a province with high OwnReligion you want a max piety governor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

I disagree on your notion of piety. Piety is only good at either 0 or max. Anything in between tends to cause more religious unrest.
For a province with low OwnReligion, you want a low piety governor. For a province with high OwnReligion you want a max piety governor.

---

That's a public order issue, not a cash issue, and like I said PO is easy to maintain in this game.

Besides, the fact remains that piety is acumen. You can test this fairly easily : get a general with no traits relating to government whatsoever. Get him in a town. Watch the income grow.

Fair enough, but with high religious unrest (coupled with the usual distance to capital penalty), chances are that you cannot charge max taxes on the other hand and taxes give more income than piety overall.

Awesome work. This should defenitly be added to the FAQ section. I am eager to start a new campaign to try out these strategies with my govenors.:charge:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Fair enough, but with high religious unrest (coupled with the usual distance to capital penalty), chances are that you cannot charge max taxes on the other hand and taxes give more income than piety overall.

---

That's a good point. We'd have to do the math to compare a low Piety gov. VS a High Piety one who needs more militia to be 100% sure, and frankly I'm too lazy :sweatdrop:. But I'd say the problem solves itself overtime : to get piety you need churches and priests, and they in turn boost OwnReligion. No heathens, no problem.

(plus training the temporary militia might just give him points to Good Administrator...:yes:)

@Gaiseric : thank you !

Just for the amount of work that you obviously did to put this together means that you should get a rousing standing ovation!

Thanks!

Totally awsome post, should be grouped together with the Thread all about priests and the Thread about Guilds...

...might be a better FAQ than the current FAQ, which is alot about ladders and not much about Preists, Govenors or Guilds.

posts like these are why I read the board. Well done.

Religious unrest begins to wear off after 5 piety or so and disappears after 7 piety, depending on how religious the settlement is. 100% your religion in a region is the magic number to avoid, as the unrest is insane (25% or more) with a low piety governor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dopp

Religious unrest begins to wear off after 5 piety or so and disappears after 7 piety, depending on how religious the settlement is. 100% your religion in a region is the magic number to avoid, as the unrest is unsane (25% or more) with a low piety governor.

---

Weird, I always thought religious unrest only happened when the population was not of your own religion. So if the governor isn't pious enough for the pop, they get mad as well ? Meh, ungrateful brainwashed little sods.

Ah well, you learn something new every day. Thanks for explaining this !

Nice post Kobal. I had no idea that piety was in any way related to income. I had noticed that governors who seemingly had no useful income traits were still giving me income, but I just figured the game was being kind and allowing that a man in charge would be able to do something good still, lol. Even more reason to train those early churches... as if getting chivalry points out of them and thus boosting pop growth as well as promoting morality traits now in 1.2 weren't enough reasons to build them already. I wonder if CA is promoting a secret religious agenda by making the religious aspects of the game so far-reaching :laugh4:

Nice post Kobal.

does your king's piety have a global effect, (like acumen did in medieval 1)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pete101

does your king's piety have a global effect, (like acumen did in medieval 1)

---

Not entirely sure if the king's stats do anything, especially authority. All my kings are mad with zero authority (every single one, without fail, every campaign, it's like the game purposely chooses the mad ones to inherit), so it's probably for the best that authority doesn't seem to play a huge role in M2TW. In MTW, your empire lived or died based on your king's authority.

Nice work :bow:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pete101

does your king's piety have a global effect, (like acumen did in medieval 1)

---

Not sure at all, as it's not easy to quantify, but I don't really remember reading anything like this about RTW, so it's probably out in M2 as well.

AFAIK Authority is the only global stat and it can give a bonus/malus to PO factionwide but I could be mistaken, I don't remember reading anything about it so could just be an impression.

Kobavelli :laugh4:

Very solid work, but despite the slaver ancillary I disagree with the notion that you should have high dread for muslims. The higher pop growth you gain by chivalry is much more worthwhile in the long run in most cities. The Byzs can get a slaver, too, btw

Thanks all for the praise. I am your humble servant, Lords :bow:

@alpaca : Early on, possibly (again, too lazy to do the actual math :sweatdrop:), but what do you care about growth in a Huge City that gets twice or thrice as much money out of trade than taxes ?

And you're correct about the Byzantines getting the slaver, I'll edit the guide. I had clean forgotten about them.

Authority only influences your subjects' loyalty. Low authority means more chances of going rebel.

nice guide, cleared up a lot of points to me, thank you Kobal ~:cheers:

can you guys tell me if having 2 generals in a city when a building is completed gives each of them a chance for a trait or is it just the governor that gets that?

Only the governor. Else 'twould be too easy :clown:

How do I avoid the "bad trader" traits early? Make sure theres a grain exchange before hes in? Or market?

Yup, build the first, 600 florins corn exchange before you even consider sending a governor in a given city.

I tried bringing them on the last turn (to offset the "is in town without a corn exchange" trigger that gives -1 points with the "completes a market-type building" one that gives +2) and it doesn't work either : they still end up Bad Traders that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by heynow21

How do I avoid the "bad trader" traits early? Make sure theres a grain exchange before hes in? Or market?

---

If you absolutely can't build a grain exchange first, a nice exploit is taking the governor out of the city for the end of the turn.

Kobal: Well the best way is probably to go dread first, get the slaver, then go a-saint with jihads, etc. in the later game :laugh4:
StrategyDread and so on are all reversible, so getting less than -3 chiv and later more than 5 isn't too hard (you should avoid battle dread though, as you have to flee to get rid of it again). Just build assassins and such and kill some of your opponent's diplomats or faction leaders, furthermore set your tax level to very high :yes:

So given the bad trader trigger if there isn't a corn exchange, shouldn't the sentence

Quote:

---

Untill your faction has a few of these young bucks, don't build anything except military buildings and armorers.

---

read

Quote:

---

Until your faction has a few of these young bucks, don't build anything except military buildings, armorers and a corn exchange.

---

But other than that, an excellent guide with lots of good pointers. I never would have dreamed piety was tied to finances---and it makes all those 0-piety generals from 1.0 and 1.1 serious liabilities.

Nice, I avoided leaving governors in any settlements since early on because it was broken and I just kept getting the bad traits. I'm going to consider leaving them in now. I don't want to bother actively training them, but some of the stuff looks easy (i.e. leaving governor on a town with the religious building line).

I'm still getting bad traits right now and I'm wondering how to avoid them. This should be the focus of your next update. :idea2:

At the start, though, I definitely focus on chivalry and the cheap buildings first. I've found that with a quick, good start, you won't have money problems later on even with crappy governors. When I started my Moor campaign, I created Jihads to get Ghazis and get +5 chivalry on a governor. I put him in Granada. I made 3 more and put them in castles and some newly conquered provinces to grow them early on. The reason is that the cities that start small usually run out of stuff to build before they hit 6000 pop. I move the high chiv governors to new provinces once I hit a population level that I feel the city can upgrade to the next level without wasting turns building stuff I don't need. I think setting the taxes to low gives some bad traits to my governors but I like growing cities fast.

The upside is that I got 5 citadels at around turn 70. I'm going to have 5 dismounted christian guard capable citadels before turn 80 and it'll take another 11 turns before they are capable of making christian guard.

Another question is how do you get the + to law traits? Once your empire starts getting big, they are probably more beneficial than the good trader, etc. lines.

Excellent work Kobal !

very nice post - only i start off slow no matter what i do :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by andrewt

I'm still getting bad traits right now and I'm wondering how to avoid them. This should be the focus of your next update. :idea2:

---

Pretty much all bad traits triggers fire up either

1) If you let your treasury get higher than 50.000 florins (with increments at 100.000 and 150.000). Spend that cash. Get yourself some knights or sumtink :)

2) if you end your turn in a settlement that has high level cultural buildings or inns, and you haven't moved during the turn. You could very well avoid them entirely by moving your generals around every turn, but then you'd forfeit some good traits and many ancillaries who also check the same parameters. Better to make sure your governors have the appropriate AntiTraits to those bad traits : Sober, Prim, Upright, Austere and any Skill (Maths, Rethoric, Logistics, Strategy, Tactics) are the ones that counter the most common threats.

Other ways to get bad traits include :
3) When being the target of something bad. Military defeat, inquisition, disaster, assassination attempts all have chances to turn them into Cowards, Superstitious or even Insane in the case of assassinations.
D) At random. Or rather, you can have generals born/married/adopted with the "seed" of a bad trait (1 point in it) but not see it because the trait's threshold for the first level is at 2, or 4, or even 8. These traits usually have a 4% chance to gain 1 point every turn, meaning they'll just appear out of the blue sometimes.
I like to call those "boobytrap governors" :)
The second son of the Milanese starter king is a good example of this : he's clean at first glance, but he'll always become "Generous" (bonus to popularity, malus to tax and trade IIRC) overtime because he starts with that one point in it.
Many of those traits also have a chance to be passed down to offsprings, with a high chance if it's a genetic trait (fertile, ugly...), and a lower chance plus a chance for the opposite as well if it's a mental trait (paranoia, miserly etc...)

Kobavelli are you using vanilla 1.20 btw ?

Nope, I recently switched over to LtC (with it's increased build times and costs which frustrate my optimization urges to no end :sweatdrop:), but this is based on the vanilla files so it applies to 1.2 as well as any mod that doesn't fidget with the traits and ancil files too much.

I played 2 campaigns in 1.20 tilll the end. Egypt & Byzantine, never (or rarely) got any farming traits, hence I was wondering.

My general view of 1.20 VnVs after those 2 camps is that Carl's (YEAP! you saw that one coming !) PureFixer 1.13 is much better (have'nt tried 1.14 yet). Many more traits appear, and disappear, more logical.

Great work.

Soon my empires will have "good taxman" - governors only :yes: :yes:

Well, when I say faction this or faction that gets a boost to something, it means that the trait appears in their cultural birth trigger.

Every faction now (as of 1.2, before only half of them did) has a specific random_birth trigger in addition to the usual ones, and the Egyptian one has 25% chance of giving them 3 points in GoodFarmer (so the first level, Farming Knowledge).

They're only checked when a kid comes of age though, not for adoptions nor potential suitors.

Build farms and you get two points in GoodFarmer. The best thing is building three farms per character which results in GoodFarmer 2 without wasting any points.

By the way, I thought of a new exploit: Build small churches and destroy them again (although be sure to bribe the pope a bit as he doesn't like that too much, gives -0.1 faction standing). It will give you looting but that isn't a bad trait, and will give you the ReligiousActivity, StrategyChivalry, Upright and GoodBuilder traits while you lose 400 and a turn of building each time.
The same goes obviously for the grain exchange where you lose even less (nothing except for maybe 300-500 florins and two turns)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpaca

Build farms and you get two points in GoodFarmer. The best thing is building three farms per character which results in GoodFarmer 2 without wasting any points.

By the way, I thought of a new exploit: Build small churches and destroy them again (although be sure to bribe the pope a bit as he doesn't like that too much, gives -0.1 faction standing). It will give you looting but that isn't a bad trait, and will give you the ReligiousActivity, StrategyChivalry, Upright and GoodBuilder traits while you lose 400 and a turn of building each time.
The same goes obviously for the grain exchange where you lose even less (nothing except for maybe 300-500 florins and two turns)

---

Yup, I mentionned the small church thing in the guide, but nope, doesn't work with the grain exchange : since you never technically have it, you get 1 point in bad trader every single turn while you're doing this (I'm still reluctant to trust the NoGoingBackLevel thingy, considering that you can have traits and antitraits coexisting already...). Plus doing it with a port yields more points anyway. Castle ports give very little trade, so they're usefull for this, as long as you don't need Grande Carracks RIGHT NOW :sweatdrop:.

In another thread I learned that you can exploit this with a Leather Tanner to get the Swordsmith guild faster too. I never thought of that :yes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

Yup, I mentionned the small church thing in the guide, but nope, doesn't work with the grain exchange : since you never technically have it, you get 1 point in bad trader every single turn while you're doing this (I'm still reluctant to trust the NoGoingBackLevel thingy, considering that you can have traits and antitraits coexisting already...). Plus doing it with a port yields more points anyway. Castle ports give very little trade, so they're usefull for this, as long as you don't need Grande Carracks RIGHT NOW :sweatdrop:.

In another thread I learned that you can exploit this with a Leather Tanner to get the Swordsmith guild faster too. I never thought of that :yes:

---

Uh-uh, it triggers on building completion, and when the building is completed it will also exist if I'm not mistaken (I think I tested this a while back).

Sorry for not reading your thread thoroughly enough with the church though :laugh4:
The advantage of the grain exchange over a port is that it's cheaper, although the port gives you an additional 25% for GoodBuilder
I don't use any of these anyways :laugh4:

Me neither, I figure making sure of this or that parameter is just optimizing, but taking advantage of them by doing something you wouldn't do otherwise is "cheating".
And I'm sure about the market thing, I tested it during the writing of this.


Now to find the way to make mines destroyable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

Me neither, I figure making sure of this or that parameter is just optimizing, but taking advantage of them by doing something you wouldn't do otherwise is "cheating".
And I'm sure about the market thing, I tested it during the writing of this.


Now to find the way to make mines destroyable.

---

Ok then, another thing to keep in mind when designing triggers :inquisitive:

How about building up your royal line? Does it make sense to take every marriage you can find to get those babies popping? And also, should I kill off unused generals to increase odds of adoptions etc?

That's a good question. I'm not 100% sure about the best way to go. I never adopt as a matter of house rules, so my experience in this is limited, but I'll try to answer as best I can.

- Marrying generals early to get toddlers exponentially fast is good. More babies means more coming of ages, mean more chances you'll get born governors (and that Austere trait...)
That is, unless said general is in line for succession at some point. For heirs and would-be heirs govs, waiting for an Intelligent bride (no matter what her other traits are) or a high charm (more babies who'll have some of the good traits you've painstakingly given their fathers) makes more sense, so for those I usually wait till they're 40 before marrying them to any old noblewoman who's interested. Before that, it's open season on royal chicks :)

- unused generals you can always use in battles as better than average heavy cav, no ? Even a cowardly gambling arse-a-holic can swing a mean sword, as long as you don't let him command the army. And there's always a chance his sons will learn from his failings and be born with their opposite. And if they don't... well, that's just more regenerating heavy cav for you, it's win-win !
The only time I actively try to kill generals is when they are the current heir and I have another in mind/I just spotted an Intelligent princess and I want some of that smart booty for my govs.

- adoptions are no good for the purpose of government.
First, like I said you want to start training at 16 to maximise the return on investment, and adopted generals are always older than that.
Then, the "trait pool" for adopted generals and suitors is much shallower than the coming of age one, with lots and lots of traits that only babbies can get at birth. This includes cultural traits, which are most often very good.
Lastly, adopted sons won't have the good traits of their "father", nor any chiv/dread or victor legacy.

Meaning the only good use for adoptions is to get fighting generals, or very early in the campaign to multiply the number of sons exponentially down the road.

Well, Adoptions CAN be useful, if i want good change to handsome/ugly sons in start i might adopt, even if it may give DiscontentGeneral to all other sons. I rarely adopt Man of Hours thou, since they go to random family member, which might be just the one you didn´t want to have son adopted. Easiest way to get good generals without too much micromanage is to play Muslims, they don´t get girls or drinking (not sure about Gambling), so free to build Sisha House series. Just need to make sure father is proper, and not even Princesses to bother with (yes max +15% trade and tax and increased popularity and children change but no one is perfect)

Hopefully this will be added to the Guides section! Thanks for the labor of love!

Dear French Master of the MIITW Training Academy :2thumbsup:

I translated your guide into german and have putten it onto Looki .de
I gave you Credit of course.
Know you're getting famous in Germany, too :smash:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BL4DE

Dear French Master of the MIITW Training Academy :2thumbsup:

I translated your guide into german and have putten it onto Looki .de
I gave you Credit of course.
Know you're getting famous in Germany, too :smash:

---

Wow ! Das ist doch unexpected geworden wird werden gehaben zu gewerden sein !
Kidding aside, all I can say is "wow". Thanks a lot, both for the plug and for letting me know !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

Wow ! Das ist doch unexpected geworden wird werden gehaben zu gewerden sein !
Kidding aside, all I can say is "wow". Thanks a lot, both for the plug and for letting me know !

---

The word you're looking for is "gewesen" :no:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

Wow ! Das ist doch unexpected geworden wird werden gehaben zu gewerden sein !
Kidding aside, all I can say is "wow". Thanks a lot, both for the plug and for letting me know !

---

Naturellement qui s'appartient quand même ainsi :sweatdrop:

College was good for ONE thing. Never to steal another persons text's, pictures and stuf. Wheter original or not :whip:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pete101

does your king's piety have a global effect, (like acumen did in medieval 1)

---

i did a test and king's piety does have a global effect, increasing the income of all settlements slightly

noticed that a governor's chivalry increases loyalty, but i haven't tested the king's chivalry yet

someone said that authority increase's loyalty (globally), is that true ?,
i thought it influenced diplomacy, is that also true ?

what about a general's stars, in previous games i recall it increasing attack and defense, in the manual it says that it increase morale (the same thing chivalry does), is that all it does ?

(just to be clear my understanding of morale from the manual, is that it keeps your soldiers in the fight, nothing else)

would like to point out the fundamental flaw in creating "the perfect statesman",

the upkeep of his body guard is quite high, and often you need close to ten just to be paying the bills,

then all you have left is a high chivalry to increase loyalty, but surely if he has high chivalry he'd serve his nation better on the battlefield,

probably the only time i might use such a person even if i had one is perhaps in a distant city like constantinpole or jeruslem, where you need all the loyalty you can find

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pete101

would like to point out the fundamental flaw in creating "the perfect statesman",

the upkeep of his body guard is quite high, and often you need close to ten just to be paying the bills,

then all you have left is a high chivalry to increase loyalty, but surely if he has high chivalry he'd serve his nation better on the battlefield,

probably the only time i might use such a person even if i had one is perhaps in a distant city like constantinpole or jeruslem, where you need all the loyalty you can find

---

That's why you don't want them in every crappy little backwater hole in your empire. But when a governor ups the income from a city by a factor of 2 just by sitting there, and when that city is Venice or Antioch or whatever city makes crazy cash even without building anything in it, his bodyguard upkeep is the last thing I care about :sweatdrop:

But great find on the king's piety thing ! Didn't think it would matter as I'd never really noticed it back in RTW. I'll edit the guide accordingly.

i had a guy with 6 piety in novgorod and he wasn't paying the bills, (although he was the heir and therefore had a bigger body guard)

is the effect of higher piety additive or exponential,

i know you've given tips for increasing piety but how can you get it so high,

the church thing only works once, (or does it repeat at higher level churches), and when i made a couple of priests that didn't up my piety neither, maybe i need the update or somethin, and as for building a cathedral, well that's quite expensive, are their any other ways to up piety,

i had a guy with 6 piety in novgorod and he wasn't paying the bills, (although he was the heir and therefore had a bigger body guard)

is the effect of higher piety additive or exponential,

i know you've given tips for increasing piety but how can you get it so high,

the church thing only works once, (or does it repeat at higher level churches), and when i made a couple of priests that didn't up my piety neither, maybe i need the update or somethin, and as for building a cathedral, well that's quite expensive, are their any other ways to up piety,

how much piety did the factor 2 guy have? ten,

what were his piety traits, what was his story, what decisions did you make +/ lucky events

Was he a Cruelly Exacting Taxman ? That +30% to taxes is much more important than piety (of course, having both is even better)

As for upping Russian piety, well, both Orthodox factions get the shaft since the easiest way to boost it fast is by crusading/jihading. But they have no pope to worry about so they can build/destroy/build small churches with no penalty (if one is so inclined, it IS a bit of an exploit). Besides that, well, train priests, send them alone in high heresy regions so that they turn heretics themselves and you can train some more, and hope you get points in PublicFaith by staying in town :/

just read the part in your guide about finishing a building in a settlement with low loyalty and high taxation to become good tax man, that's a neat trick

i tried building a second church for the same governor and it did not increase his piety, was this because higher levels of the same trait are not a %100 chance ?

:juggle2:

building churches and training priests are both 100% chance for 1 point, and the trait thresholds are 1/4/8/12 so yeah, it gets harder.

Edit : and that governor was in Venice, with +30% to taxes, +20% to trade (I really made a LOT of merchants with him), 7 Piety, +2 to farming and a tutor for +5% tax. And OK, so I exagerated about that factor 2, but he did make the town go from 3200ish to 4800ish.
Then it all went to hell because both the HRE and Milan jumped me in the same turn. But that's another story :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kobal2fr

you will want a 16 year old boy for your budding governor, and nothing else.

---

Oh man did I read that wrong at first... Here was my initial response:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

And just how is giving your governor a 16 year old boy going to raise his piety?

Roflmao!

^_^

It only raises your piety if you're Catholic, and that's only if no younger ones are available.

Great guide Kobal :2thumbsup:

I never knew piety boosted income...
Little did i imagine that lazy CA used the "Management" scrolls from RTW to implement 'Piety' but also leaving in the boost to income... and not letting us know :furious3:

Atleast there is something to simulate more income by having a governor (= possible better management)... though i am struggling to wrap my mind around how being pious can boost income???????? :inquisitive:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by atheotes

Great guide Kobal :2thumbsup:

I never knew piety boosted income...
Little did i imagine that lazy CA used the "Management" scrolls from RTW to implement 'Piety' but also leaving in the boost to income... and not letting us know :furious3:

Atleast there is something to simulate more income by having a governor (= possible better management)... though i am struggling to wrap my mind around how being pious can boost income???????? :inquisitive:

---

Well it's probably because the more pious your governor is the crazier he'll get, calling the inquisition and burning people alive. Incidentally, did anybody see my torch?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ergothead

It only raises your piety if you're Catholic, and that's only if no younger ones are available.

---

And just how are my governors going to produce heirs if they are too busy with 16 year old boys?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alpaca

Well it's probably because the more pious your governor is the crazier he'll get, calling the inquisition and burning people alive. Incidentally, did anybody see my torch?

---

:idea2: Ah i get it... slacking in work or corruption will lead to being burnt in the stake!!! :yes: :bow: No wonder productivity increases!!! :logic: :surrender2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by atheotes

Great guide Kobal :2thumbsup:

I never knew piety boosted income...
Little did i imagine that lazy CA used the "Management" scrolls from RTW to implement 'Piety' but also leaving in the boost to income... and not letting us know :furious3:

Atleast there is something to simulate more income by having a governor (= possible better management)... though i am struggling to wrap my mind around how being pious can boost income???????? :inquisitive:

---

Because tax in medieval times was oftentimes paid to the church.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alsn

Because tax in medieval times was oftentimes paid to the church.

---

Nope, they just had their own set of tithes on top of the government ones. I think the basic reasoning was that "everything you give to the Church, you get back a hundredfold in Heaven... SO GIVE US EVERYTHING YOU GOT ALREADY, and be quick about it, you might go to Heaven anytime my son *nods toward his heavily armed escort*" :yes:

These academic buildings mentioned, what are they? I knew in rome, and as I recall there were libraries or something in mtw, but in m2tw I only see alchemists labs.

I searched on the forums, and I searched on the google and I even searched in the descr_ files but came up with nothing. How kin I ever build an academic building to learn me up some generals if I cain't learn what they am called?

For cities, they are alchemic_lab/alchemic_school/university, and for castles library/academy. All factions do not get all of them, as only Danes, Scots, Poland and Hungary have castle academias.
Everyone gets the city ones, but only the University can be built before the gunpowder event.

Quick question: why have Warmongers been moved to the Guides section and Statesmen have not? Militaristic prejudice, I tell you! Someone should smite the moderator with a rolled-up edict!

Because I'm told space in the guides' section is at a premium. So they rolled the two guides into one big treatise, with The Prince added as post 2 of The AoW :smile:

I could probably ask sapi to switch them around (i.e. The Prince as post 1 and AoW as post 2), but *shrug*. He's got enough workload already.

:grin:

You'll have to ask froggy to do that - it's out of my control now that it's been moved.

I'm sure she'd be happy to do so if you wish, however.

Might as well confine discussion to the new, merged thread.

Closed.