if you have access to halberd militia, which are so much better, and available earlier (and thus can gain more experience)??
Am I missing something?
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if you have access to halberd militia, which are so much better, and available earlier (and thus can gain more experience)??
Am I missing something?
yes the correct deployment and use of pikes, if used correctly in tandem with either archers or muskets and some heavy cav your armies take minimal losses while destroying the other army near to completion. if you have question there was a thread about the best pike unit and correct use of said units
Pikemen vs. Swordsmen - an analysis there is one it should help
Yes, but halberds also has long spears and all of the benefit of pikes PLUS they have AP and are available earlier.
So why pikes if you have halberds?
Halberds are a bit bugged. In the game, they are suckier than pikes. After much testing, I can say halberds lose sorely to cavalry due to the halberds relatively low attack and attack speed as well as weapon reach. They are quite effective against infantry but then pikemen can also accomplish the same thing even with no AP and are way cheaper.
So I would go pikemen instead only because thy are currently more effective.
ummmmm yes they are available earlier if u are not the scots
halberbs=owned by pikes
Wait, what ?
Knocking pikes, I can understand, but knocking pikes in favor of halberds is a new one :)
Frankly, everything a halberd does, a pike does better.
They certainly can withhold a heavycav charge, when halberdiers will get cheesed*.
They can hold infantry long enough that a more anti-inf unit can flank, while halberds will die too fast.
They walk faster.
Pikes have much longer reach, meaning they can use more ranks (or rather, as madcat said in another post, two or three units of pikes can be deployed behind each other, in two ranks, and all units will fight, while the attacker can only fight with one.
And lastly, spearwall formation is just as useless/buggy for halberdiers than it is for pikemen - it'll hold a charge, but then you absolutely have to turn it off or they just won't fight.
Soooo...why would anyone buy a halberdier unit ? :)
(* : it's like being creamed, only worse)
Hmmm. This is not my experience. Playing as Sicily, halbs have easily outperformed pikes.
I did a few tests. In 5 tests of chivs vs halb/pike
chivs lost 5 times against the halbs (with an average number of survivors of 40 halbs)
chivs lost 4 of 5 against the pikes, (with an average number of survivors of 35 pikes) -- that is, I discarded the loss.
Pikes also lost 5/5 against halbs, averaging 40 survivors. What am I missing?
The fact that pikes are not designed to fight infantry ? :sweatdrop:
Pikes are meant to be moving stake walls, to protect your archers, your crossbows, your muskets, heck even your cannons against those big bad horsemen with the pointy sticks. The muskets/cannons/archers/xbow in turn protect the pikes against infantry that the pikes can hold but hardly kill. Together, and ideally (that is to say : if the game handled pikes better and didn't let them switch to their swords so easily) a pike & shot army with a little cav should beat anything thrown at it.
Halberdiers are a weak middle ground : they can fight infantry, but not as good as REAL anti-inf units like heavy cav or DFKs and with many losses which precludes them from taking part in long campaigns, and they completely suck against cavalry when DFKs can beat them off with any luck.
So halbs may have a value of sorts, as cheap yet somewhat efficient militia, but they'll always be worse than well supported pikes. 1-on-1, pikes are probably worse admitedly, but 1-on-1 doesn't say anything about a real battle. Pikes don't kill : they have staying power. Spears don't kill much either, would you say they're useless because most units eventually defeat them 1 on 1 ?
Frenchie is mostly right.
Halberdiers are better than pikemen on walls, but that's about it.
I find that the shorter polearms have an easier time of it when fighting on slopes (this probably wouldn't be the case if pikemen knew how to master the technique of pointing pikes up and down).
Well, Pikes are a bit weak right now coz of the sword swap problem which makes them crap when a lot of units rush thru the formation rendering the pikes useless. Many people fix this by modding out the swords but then it leaves the pikeman a bit overpowered in that nothing can pass thru it.
pikes not being able to raise or lower their angle is a bug and when asked if CA was going to address the uphill downhill bug for patch 1.2 they said they would not be able to this time around. but there was an admission it was a bug.
halberds in v1.1 can easily beat many infantry units but in v1.2 are easily beaten by shield and sword knights especially dfk. and im not even going to begin to imagine what varangian guard could do to them. with militia halberdier this is not anything of concern to me but when swiss guard are being slaughtered by dfk then im very disappointed.swiss guard should be one of the toughest if not the toughest unit in the game.
pikes will hold up longer than most spearmen when attacked by dfk etc. even better spear infantry dont last very long versus dfk types. pikes will hold up long enough for help to arrive. with militia pikes that is barely in time.
however i am beginning to appreciate how certian kinds of shock infantry can hack their way into pikes. it does give some purpose to all those units and it is possible however my big disappointment is when swiss pikemen and landsneckts are so easily destroyed.
one way for halberds to take out pikemen is a technique i developed not too long ago post 1.2 patch. form your halberds into a column and order them to attack while in spearwall. they will wedge themselves through the pike units center and once past the pikewall they get the advantage and begin to spread out with the flanks turning to the secondary animation [swinging] while the center keeps prodding and poking. i can defeat pikemen everytime with this technique. however against swiss pikemen and landsneckts it would take swiss guard or obundashear to make it work.
pikes are at their best if given the weapon upgrade. this adds 6 attack and gives them the chance to inflict massive casualties at start of melee before an enemy bust through the spearwall.
some of this may not be completely realistic or historical but its the game mechanics so we make do with what has been dealt to us. and even though it is not exactly effecient the arrangement of thin lines of pikemen in column can emulate a true phalanx style fighting arrangement. therefore so long as i am able to have a way to "fix" it temporarily im satisfied.
ive learned to start using other types of units and discovering their strengths. i especially like "better spear units" i will form them up tight or in schiltrom and get them packed up tight against the enemy infantry or cav and once the front is stabilized i turn off schiltrom or guard mode [depending on which formation i decided to use and command them to attack]. they begin pushing like those guys in "300" and shove the enemy back and usually score some good kills that way especially against horses.a lot of this is in cities where their flanks are protected.
in the open field if you place guard mode on and do not move your spearmen cavalry will hardly have any effect on the charge and then after the charge is depleted take guard mode off and attack and kill uber cav. when cav pulls back to launch another charge rush your spearmen back into formation and hit guard mode again and they can usually defeat cav almost as good as pikemen and definetly better than halberds can. being halberds are so pathetic i oftentimes wondered if CA should give them a larger unit so they can have enough facing to hold the cav flanks better when absorbing charges.
im impressed with the shorter polearm units like varangian guard ;). now if only halberdiers and two handed sword units can be rebalanced to match two hand axemen we will have a nice game. although i do believe some shield infantry such as dfk are just a little overpowered. i can accept possibly late plate armored chivalric being uber but dfk are supposed to be obsolete in the later era but they ususally own most "better" infantry from my experience.
I've been puzzling over this question myself, as I have the option to raise Scottish Pike Militia in my current campaign but looking at their stats they don't seem as useful as Dismounted Knights.
This thread prompted me to do a bit of testing, mainly for my own benefit.
The first test pitted Scottish Pike Militia against Dismounted English Knights just to see what the results would be. Battlefield was Grassy Plain and no bonusses were added to either side.
Scottish Pike Militia V Dismounted English Knights
The knights won but only after a prolonged struggle. They found it hard to penetrate beyond the pikes to reach the militiamen, in several cases falling back to regroup and then charging the spear wall again to force a penetration. Once beyond the pike points the knights had the advantage forcing the militia to drop their pike and draw their sword in an uneven fight.
Losses: 181 Pikemen 73 knights
Next I decided to pit the pikemen against the best mounted knights they were likely to face in my campaign e.g. Feudal Knights
Scottish Pike Militia v Feudal Knights
I actually had to run this test twice.
In both tests the pikemen hunkered down ready to receive cavalry and the Knights trotted up and then refused to charge home. They just sat their looking at the wall of spear points and refused to budge a single step closer.
The question then arose how to take the battle to the knights. According to Mike Loades the Scottish Pikemen were trained to move and fight but the Pikemen in MTW2 clearly aren't. My first experiment was simply to tell the pikemen to attack the Knights. This proved to be a total disaster as as soon as the order to attack was given the pikemen dropped their pikes and charged with their swords to be cut to ribbons by the knights.
Losses: 210 Pikemen 41 Knights
The second test started in the same way as the first but this time instead of ordering the pikemen to attack the knights I simply ordered them to move to a point beyond the knights thus creating an apparently accidental collision.
This worked better, although as soon as the first collissions occurred I did press the BACKTAB button to order an emergency halt. A lot of the Pikemen did still drop their pikes, but some of them quickly picked them up again and the knights seemed more willing to attack now that they had been bloodied. The result was a series of charges by the knights into the pikemens rather ragged spearwall which was enough to unhorse a lot of knights and send the rest running for home.
Losses: 76 Pikmen 96 Feudal Knights
So, even allowing for the 'sword swap bug' Scottish Militia Pikemen can own mounted knights if handled carefully. In practice the reluctance of mounted knights to charge them creates an interesting opportunity for crossbowmen and archers to practice their archery.
So, a mixed force of Scottish Militia Pikemen and Mercenary Crossbowmen ought to prove very effective.
I just tested this theory in a custom battle: 6xFeudal Knights v 3xScottish Militia Pikemen and 3xScottish Noble Archers. The result was as predicted, the knights refused to charge the pikemen and just stood there getting picked off by the archers. About halfway through the archers ammunition I even moved them forward to stand in front of the pikemen so that they were firing directly into the faces of the knights but they still refused to charge.
Losses: 0 Pikemen, 0 Archers, 111 Feudal Knights
Likewise in seige assaults these Pikemen ought to prove useful in blocking streets so that your missile troops can fire into the struggling mass beyond.
I blame kobal for the lousy performance of my halberds and pikes.
i never build pikes or halbs unless i'm just totally bored of using shields
i'll just keep a few crappy ol spearmen around to pin cav if i have to, pikes are so unwieldy and all my generic spearmen dont drop the spear if some enemy get in formation like pikes seem to do
who knows, maybe i just stink at using them...maybe they are good at holding gatehouse doors, but i'v never tried this. i assume the mass of attackers would push the formation thin and cause them all to drop the pikes though
So, how about confiscating swords and testing both halberds and pikes then?
In my current campaign, both: pikes and halberds perform very well without swords. Halberds have a harder time withstanding a direct cavalry charge though.
Didz,
As the scots, I house rule "No pikes" because they work very well when combined with Noble Archers. For a potent combo, Archers just in front of pikes with heavy infantry on either end and some boarder horses in reserve is a NASTY combo. At 150 florins a pop they are CHEAP. They also tend to do a number on English/French cav.
mbrasher1
Depending on faction Pikes can be your best infantry unit. As the Scots they tend to be... well... too good in many cases. I try not to use them too heavily because they can be a killer on the battle field. They form a mobile wall that archers can use for cover. Toss in some light cav to disrupt enemy archers and you have a very effective combo.
People can say over and over that halberd are inferior to pikes, but I am still not convinced.
In 5 tests of pike/halberds vs a common cavalry unit (chivalric knights), Sicilian halberd militia handily outperformed pike militia. (the halbs lost about 5 fewer men per engagement on avg, plus lost the battle less frequently)
In 5 tests of pike/halberds vs a common infantry unit with swords (DFK), halberds handily outperformed the pike militia. (the halbs lost 3/5, the pikes 5/5 and the halbs killed, on average, more DFKs)
In 5 tests of pikes vs halbs, the halbs win each time, with an avg of 43 survivors.
These are my test results, using 1.2. I still wonder why anybody would not use pikes, when superior halbs are available earlier.
The only reasons I can imagine are as follows:
-- if pikes, while being inferior fighters, may hold the line longer vs infantry that outclasses them
-- that pikes benefit disproportionately from the swordsmith upgrade (I tested this and the halbs also gain from the upgrade. It did not affect my results)
I think that since halbs also get the very long spears, any benefit that accrues to the pikes from upgrades, multiple ranks, etc also accrues to halbs, who also get AP. The long spears benefit is greater for pikes, but it is less than the AP benefit, at least in my tests.
Have you guys actually tested halbs vs pikes in 1.2? If anyone has, let me know your results. For me, the halbs are holding up to be superior to the pikes.
Well, halberdiers have no swords to begin with but pikes get a tremendous boost. If you do intent to mod them, its better to balance them by upping their cost or lowering their attack power.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaists
In my campaigns, I use pikes alot but mostly during gunpowder age for historical accuracy. I use them in conjunction with gunpowder infantry and cannons. Its fun since you don't have to mindlessly charge DFKs which is quite tiresome. Be warned, this army composition is near crap in sieges but extremely effective in flat terrain battles or advantageous slope terrain.
I just increase the power of their secondary attack, so that bashing someone in the face with a polearm actually does something.
This has been a very interesting thread. I've not been one to really delve into the mechanics of the game in order to discern what units are better than others. Further, I've never worried myself with balance or considered the game a failure if some factions were stronger than others. (not a Online player can you tell?)
In fact, I'm more likely to conquer the map using English Spear Militia (which I can retrain quickly and garrison in a captured city for free), Longbowmen, and Mailed Knights than any other units. My whole style has been less finesse on the battlefield and more finesse on the campaign map. Eliminate the enemies strongpoints while they are weakest and then close in for the rest of the cities. If a field battle occurs I do well to end it quickly as these troops don't stand up well against more professional armies. Of course it's rare to find quality armies in M2:TW. ;)
That said, I will have to re-visit my strategies now. I've never had much luck with Halbs or pikemen, but after reading this I will have to look at them again.
mbrasher, do the tests i just did, pikes vs dfk halbs vs dfk, even the most ghetto of pikes outperforms all but jannissaries (which really arent the type this is about), and even then its close
halbs break formation always, i assume its the animation
this is with ltc mod, but i'm sure its the same results with vanilla
also nobody ever stops before hitting my pikes, they charge happily into them
Yes, I've just been doing some tests based on various combinations of pike and missile troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Longarrow
The most effective deployment is definitely with the missile units deployed just in front of the pikes, preferrably within the pike wall itself so that the tips of the pikes provide some protection to them.
Swiss Pikemen and musketmen are a nice combo combining fear of pikes with fear of gunpowder. I shall definately consider adding a few pike units to my Scottish army now, they should work well with my mercenary crossbows.
Pikemen are very effective against cavalry attacks but terribly vulnerable to missiles. Therefore, Didz' and others' preferred method of putting missile units just in front of the pikes is a very good idea. Your own missile units keep enemy missile units, particulary horse archers, at bay. The enemy has to take casualties too if they're going to get any hits in on the pikes.
I'm frustated at the micromanaging you have to do to get a good pike charge. Modding the swords off is a good idea. It may make pikes overpowered, but their vulnerability to missiles is still a crucial weakness. Their archers can't keep up with them and fire at the same time when the pikes are moving, cancelling out that offensive strength.
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This is as good a place as any to describe the spear unit-HA combo I stumbled across in my Hungarian campaign. An early Crusade to Venice against the excommunicated Milanese left me with lot of Crusader Sergeants and a seriously depleted Hungarian HA force. I was attacked by virtually everybody and had to find a way to use them together, particularly against Milanese armies of spears, knights and seemingly endless crossbowmen.
I deployed by Crusaders in two-man thick lines, in rows, just like mad cat mech showed me on another thread about Pikes. This led to a "square" that was more like a grate, usually two formations wide by three "rows" deep.
Now, normally a formation that's only two units wide gets it's corners wrapped around when it meets a longer line. It then gets flanked and routed. However, this time that tendency was part of a trap.
The HA were wide out on the wings. They ran forward and started their usual thing of shooting up the enemy. The Crusaders advanced, shot at by the enemy crossbowmen. However, it is very difficult for archers to hit a thin two-man line marching directly at the archers. The archers still get a lot of undershoots, while the overshoots hit the ground between the units.
The infantrylines made contact and the enemy began the usual wraparound. However, notice how many of them would be stabbing at air — the spaces between the units.
Also, the enemy infantry were turning their backs toward the HA on the wings. The HA closed in for the kill. Foot archers can't really do this sort of thing because they can't fire on the move. The result was no only fearful killing, but the morale penalty of having a unit at your back. Notice also that for the enemy knights to get at the infantry, they would have had to ride around their own infantry first. They could charge the HA, I suppose, but they'd just skirmish away.
One or both of the exposed enemy wings would rout, while the enemy on the front was taking the full force of the infantry attack. Collapse would come, swift and total. Then it was all just a router chase.
There have been rather big changes to Pikes and Halberds in LTC, most notably the primary attack for pikes, primary and secondary attack for halberds, and unit mass have all been increased.Quote:
mbrasher, do the tests i just did, pikes vs dfk halbs vs dfk, even the most ghetto of pikes outperforms all but jannissaries (which really arent the type this is about), and even then its close
halbs break formation always, i assume its the animation
this is with ltc mod, but i'm sure its the same results with vanilla
also nobody ever stops before hitting my pikes, they charge happily into them
Re: Pike line and width.
A pike formation in a defensive spearwall has the first rank kneeling, pointing its pikes upwards. The second holds their pikes at waist level. The third holds their pikes overhead, with the tips pointed down. The fourth stands there with the pike erect, waiting to step forward if one of the men ahead of him dies.
This means that to fully deploy a thick wall of pikes, the formation needs to be 18 files wide and four ranks deep (with three left over in a fifth rank, assuming a normally sized formation of 75 pikemen.
Two such pikemen formations side by side would cover a 60-man archer formation, stretched two men deep and 30 men wide. Then the archer would be covered.
Halbreds can't do that.
Here's a thought: Put the pikes like that and then spread halbreds or zweihanders in front of them instead of archers.
I installed the PFP mod yesterday, and ended up losing a custom battle...
My Spanish army was as follows:
Six tercio pikemen.
Six musketeers.
Five dismounted conquistadores.
Three mounted conquistadores.
The French army was as follows.
Three aventuriers.
Three Scots guard.
Three voulgiers.
Three dismounted noble knights.
Four lancers.
Four gendarmes.
I stood my tercios in a single line, four deep, backed by two rows of two deep musketeers. I had one mounted conquistadore flanking on either end, with one in reserve, along with a dismounted conquistadore. I spread out my other four conquistadores so that they were spread between and behind a pair of tercios.
So... I sent in my flankers against the aventuriers immediately; they took out about half of them before they were overwhelmed and routed. Meanwhile, the French come in heavy on my left and try to sweep their lancers around my tercios, so I send my reserve units to that side. The majority of their infantry and cavalry end up being routed, at the loss of about 3/4 of my infantry, and all of my cavalry. All that remains is the French aventuriers and Scots guard... who proceed to rout every single one of my units...
Well there are several issues with your setup:
Dismounted Conquistadores are strong against spearmen/pikemen but weak against cavalry in the field. Since the French army doesn't have any spearmen/pikemen but lots of cavalry, you're immediately at a disadvantage. I would have 2 more cavalry and 2 less S&S infantry.
Also, it requires a lot of finesse to properly deploy pikemen/musket combos. In your situation the best formation would be as follows:
- All pikemen in a two rank deep dense long line at the center
- Each musketeer unit exactly one rank ahead of their corresponding pike unit in a two rank deep dense long line
- All pikemen have spearwall on and guard mode off
- All musketeers have skirmish off and guard mode on
- Each pikemen/musketeer combo hotkeyed
Place your swordsmen at the center behind the pikemen. Their main role will be anti-infantry work. Deploy your cavalry entirely at the flanks. This entire formation should be deployed well away from the enemy forces at the start.
When the battle begins, don't engage their forces prematurely. Wait until the French cavalry have taken heavy casualties from the muskets/pikes. When they have routed chase them and charge the archers with your cavalry. Retreat when their infantry counterattack. Let their remaining forces reach your pikemen/musketeers. At that moment charge your swordsmen from the front and cavalry from the rear.
Well, I realize that, but the fact that a wall of pikemen, all of my musketeers (none were lost in the infantry/cavalry charge), and a bunch of sword infantry couldn't defeat some archers seemed a bit lame.
Doug-Thompson, you mentioned the amount of micromanagement required to get a pike charge, so that means its possible then?
been playing spain lately, and though im still disappointed in prof. pikes inability to keep their formations and to attack, I must say the colunella of muskets protected by pikes work very well against pure cav opponents, like one of you posted, fear of pikes makes the horsies refuse to charge( very accurate) and gunshot brigs them down.
@anders
Check this thread. mad cat mech explains it. Basically, you have to leave spearwall on, turn the defend stance off, and order your unit to move through the enemy rather than attack.
Even then, it's not a real charge. Your guys don't drop their pikes, but have to walk because they are in spearwall.
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I'm very loathe to mod a game. I like posting on the forums, and believe that the vast majority of people who play the game — as opposed to posting on the forum — play the vanilla version. Therefore, I like to have experience relevant to their questions.
I've accepted a grand total of two mods in a Total War game, and I've played since MTW1. The first was a fix that stopped the absolutely silly special effect of horses hitting the enemy and sent sailing into the air in RTW. That was pure Hollywood. The second was a temporary fix when horse archers were broken in a patch of RTW. That was fixed later.
Taking away the swords of pikemen is about to become my third.
By the way, how do you do that?
By deleting (or commenting out, in case you want to be able to give'em back to them on Christmas if they've been good little boys) their "secondary attack" line in the export_descr_units.txt file
Doug-Thompson, thanks for the link!
Now the italian wars will be a cakewalk.
speaking of italian wars, I wish the italian factions would train more broken lances, men-at-arms etc. so you got the good historical italain wars feel of fighting condottieri armies and not just city militias.
(oops)
Didz,
As a question, why would you want Merc crossbows instead of Scottish archers?
I've found the archers ability to fall back a bit then charge into melee very useful. The pikes tend to die if you just leave them there, but they are so cheap thats not an issue for the most part. They keep the enemy where I want so my light cav and strong melee archers can do most of the dirty work. The swords at the ends tend to keep infantry from wrapping around and the light cav can keep heavy cav in place long enough for my archers to really hurt. As I tend to rely upon the melee of the archers, I'm wondering what advantage the crossbows bring that would be more useful.
Probably force of habit more than anything else. I've got used to hiring Mercenary Crossbow units during the opening turns of the game just to give me an quick advantage over rebel held garrisons and early faction armies.Quote:
Originally Posted by John_Longarrow
I then keep the mercenaries in service until my faction begins to produce something better. My current Scottish campaign is now on turn 108 and I still have Mercenary Crossbowmen in my service (mostly gold cheveroned now) which suggests that so far at least I have not noticed any significant reason to replace them with Scottish Archers.
Not sure if this is a true reflection of their relative effectiveness or not, as I haven't formally tested them against each other or even paid a lot of attention to their performance battle. I just get the impression that my crossbowmen are doing far more damage than my archers and so I keep using them.
I second (or third, or fourth) the "Missiles in front of Pikes" tactic. Especially hybrid archers that can handle themselves in melee. With France, I put a line of thin line of Aventuriers/Scots Guard in front of the plain Jane pikemen and turn skirmish off. There is no need for them to fall back. The pikes sticking out in front of the missile troops effectively stop cavalry charges, the hybrid archers can absorb an infantry charge and keep the pikes in good order (so they don't panic and pull out their swords).
It's a very solid anvil for the excellent French cavalry's hammer. And an anvil that rains death from afar!:smg: