Effect of weapons upgrades

Two reputable folks have recently made statements which I find quite disturbing:

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Originally Posted by mad cat mech

pikes are at their best if given the weapon upgrade. this adds 6 attack and gives them the chance to inflict massive casualties at start of melee before an enemy bust through the spearwall.

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Originally Posted by Lusted

Weapon upgrades give a +6 bonus to attack despite only shwing +1 in the unit stats.

Armour upgrades give a +2/2.5 bonus to armour despite only showing +1 in the unit stats.

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References:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...1&postcount=12
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...15&postcount=3

If they are both correct (and it's safe to say they are), then factions with fortress or large city-level swordsmen would get a HUGE advantage over the other factions.

For starters, let's compare Mailed Knights with Mamluks. Their stats are fairly similar except that Mamluks have an AP secondary attack. Thus, with no upgrades Mamluks are superior to Mailed Knights.

But imagine what happens when Mailed Knights get a weapons upgrade. Their charge is now a whopping 22. Their attack is at an astounding 16. All it took was ~30 turns of getting a fortress and ~15 turns of building DFK's. And now Mailed Knights are head-over-shoulders better than Mamluks.

How can the Egyptians possibly compensate? They can't.

They can get a Horsebreeder's Master's Guild very early in Cairo, but one measly experience point can't beat +6 attack. They can upgrade Mamluks to heavy splint, but that requires a Citadel-level smithy and still can't compare to +6 attack.

Basically my point is that +6 attack for a weapons upgrade is ridiculous. Either some CA developer was inebriated when he chose the bonus, or there is some extreme favoritism towards swordsmen.

Horse Breeder HQ gives +2 to horse XP factionwide doesn't it ? And +1 locally for a total of 3 chevron from the get go, which is +2 (displayed) attack, +2 (displayed) defense, and morale+stamina bonus.

It's certainly not negligible.

But if it bugs you that much, it's pretty easy to change what gives points towards the Swords guild and make it so that, say, Tabardariyya or Saracen Inf. give points to it. Or you can just build/destroy a Leather Tanner over and over for 5 points per 2 turn.

Kobal, it's not enough.

The HB's HQ is a level 3 guild that takes longer to get than a SS's guild. Most cavalry are built in castles so they can't get the extra 1 exp from the get-go. The two exp they do get from an HQ gives them only +1 att/def (not 2). They do get extra morale/stamina but it's probably not much.

In any case a +6 attack bonus completely overshadows the benefits from a +1-3 exp bonus.

It's true that I could change the name to "Weaponsmith's Guild" and make a ton of units eligible for points. But since every unit has a weapon, it makes the guild criteria far too broad and flavourless. It's true that I could also build/destroy tanners, but frankly it's an exploit that neither I nor the AI will do.

I guess I'm ranting too much so I'll make a constructive suggestion. The bonus should be +1 or +2 instead of +6 and should apply only to swords. After all, what business does a swordsmith have making spear points and pollaxes?

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Originally Posted by Miracle

Kobal, it's not enough.

The HB's HQ is a level 3 guild that takes longer to get than a SS's guild. Most cavalry are built in castles so they can't get the extra 1 exp from the get-go. The two exp they do get from an HQ gives them only +1 att/def (not 2). They do get extra morale/stamina but it's probably not much.

In any case a +6 attack bonus completely overshadows the benefits from a +1-3 exp bonus.

It's true that I could change the name to "Weaponsmith's Guild" and make a ton of units eligible for points. But since every unit has a weapon, it makes the guild criteria far too broad and flavourless. It's true that I could also build/destroy tanners, but frankly it's an exploit that neither I nor the AI will do.

I guess I'm ranting too much so I'll make a constructive suggestion. The bonus should be +1 or +2 instead of +6 and should apply only to swords. After all, what business does a swordsmith have making spear points and pollaxes?

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I had a potential solution to this brewing in another thread. We were discussing horsebreeders guild and how it is inexplicably limited to cities, though the vast majority of cavalry are in castles. I actually proposed a complete shift of the guild layouts, to make the guilds promote general strategies instead of specific units (at least where woodsmens, swordsmiths, and horse breeders are concerned). The idea was to use M2's built in class and type checking of units in order to grant points to each settlement by unit classifications instead of by the very selective means in the file in vanilla. Since all units can gain the melee upgrade, not just the ones that can actually give swordsmith points in vanilla, I opted to make swordsmiths a heavy infantry specialized guild instead since the melee bonuses are most consistent IMO with a heavy infantry strategy. This opens up the potential for any faction to be able to get it (I think, I haven't checked all rosters), and would help remove the unbalance that is being noted here.

Also you'll have to pardon me for saying it, but Swordsmiths Guild was already pretty broad and flavorless. It's honestly more interesting to think that if you produce a lot of heavy infantry, your smiths will get better at producing good equipment for them to use, whatever that may be, instead of this arbitrary and ridiculous focus on only swords.

Along with that I had also suggested woodsmens guild be allowed to every faction, and was then a general archery-favoring guild, granted points by any archer infantry recruited. Similarly Horse Breeders was allowed in castles, and gains points from any cavalry recruited. That actually seemed pretty fair to me, and likewise actually gives you the ability to specialize a castle for a given kind of production, something that is sorely lacking in the base game since most factions can only really hope for a swordsmiths guild or maybe a knight chapter house in a castle, since most potentially useful castle guilds were either far too faction-limited or simply setup in counter-intuitive ways (i.e. horsebreeders).

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Originally Posted by Miracle

Kobal, it's not enough.

The HB's HQ is a level 3 guild that takes longer to get than a SS's guild. Most cavalry are built in castles so they can't get the extra 1 exp from the get-go. The two exp they do get from an HQ gives them only +1 att/def (not 2). They do get extra morale/stamina but it's probably not much.

In any case a +6 attack bonus completely overshadows the benefits from a +1-3 exp bonus.

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+6 attack won't help them when they rout :2thumbsup:
Plus, the Horse guild gives bonus factionwide, while even with a sword HQ you *have* to train or retrain your units from that precise castle, which can be a drag, and certainly slows down your conquests if you want to wait for 30 turns of building and disbanding DFKs to get it in every castle you take.

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It's true that I could change the name to "Weaponsmith's Guild" and make a ton of units eligible for points. But since every unit has a weapon, it makes the guild criteria far too broad and flavourless.

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How about "Mastersmith guild" and only make elite units eligible ? Or maybe only faction specific ones ?
EDIT : gah, ninja'd by Foz.

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I guess I'm ranting too much so I'll make a constructive suggestion. The bonus should be +1 or +2 instead of +6 and should apply only to swords. After all, what business does a swordsmith have making spear points and pollaxes?

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It makes the spear points and poleaxes look purdy :clown:. Plus a sword blade is kind of a smithing feat, the hardest thing one can "get right" (before the invention of cannons at least), by comparison a spear point or an axe blade is child's work - those don't need to be hard yet soft at the same time, don't need to have perfect balance etc...

But kidding and semantics aside, I don't really see what your problem is.

If you're playing a western faction, you're on the bonus side and shouldn't complain. But if you think it makes the game too easy/your guys too powerfull, well, "don't do dat den".

And if you're playing an eastern faction, then it's the crummy AI that's on the bonus side and it won't take advantage of nor exploit it, if it even *gets* the guild in the first place instead of, say, 10.000 thieves guilds.

@Foz:

That's nice and all, but what will you call it? "Heavy Infantryman's Guild" doesn't sound very appealing.

Also, what bonuses will you give for each class-based guild? Both weapon upgrade and exp? Exp only? Weapon upgrade only?

And don't you think +6 attack is still too much, even if other classes get to have weapons upgrades?

@Kobal:

Given the choice between +6 attack and +1-3 exp, most folks will pick +6 attack every time. Think about how much faster you will kill your enemy. Morale won't be even an issue because you're easily winning.

It's really not hard to get a SS's guild in every starting castle after ~50 turns. DFK's are comparatively powerful in 1.2 and you'll need all you can get (no point in disbanding). Heck, even the AI builds a fair number of them and gets SS's guilds with reasonable frequency. Not to mention that the SS's Master's Guild also gives +1 exp for melee cavalry as well.

Yeah I've also heard of, "if it hurts when you do that, don't do it." But most players including the AI will build SS's guilds naturally so this is pretty important to address.

I couldn't say that the bonus feels like a 6 point difference from my experience. I always got the feeling that my troops behaved rather similar with or without the weapons upgrade, so the +1 sounded about right to me.:dizzy2:
I'm quite surprised now, maybe I should test this.

edit: Done and wow, never noticed such a grave difference before!
I did notice some difference in unit strength and killing speed before but it never ocurred to me that weapon upgrades could be responsible, after seeing some weapon-upgraded DFKs beat another group of DFKs easily with around 70 men left, I guess I'm converted.~:eek:

er before we compare exp upgrades with weapons upgrades wouldnt it be good to igure out the actual imapct of the upgrade first.

what i mean is if a 1 point weapon upgrade actually gives +6 attack then wouldnt an exp increase showing a 1 point increase also be giving a bigger increase than displayed? has anyone tested this out?

I wonder why the displayed stats are wrong anyway, it can't be that hard to show the right numbers on a scroll, I mean anyone who can program such a 3D engine should be able do do that.:sweatdrop:

I tried making Horse Breeder available for castles, but the building browser throws a hissy fit with missing text entries. It doesn't seem to be a typo or bug, at least, otherwise the text entries should be there.

I wonder whether gunpowder troops get their missile weapon or their melee attack upgraded when you build an alchemist lab. Does it even work properly?

so thats why my 5 squads of armoured swordsmen (english) upgraded with both armour and weapons + all vets wsa able to hold off that 2000 strong german army at the gates on guard mode :P
(i have picks :P)

Exp bonuses certainly seem to be displaying correctly judging by my testing, just weapon and armour upgrades are not displaying correctly on the unit cards.

Well, just now, playing as Poland I have a citadel with master horsebreeders guild and Academy.
That SHOULD give my Polish Guard +4 exp, but they come out with only a bronze chevron.
So somethings not quite right.

You sure it's not the unit experience bug bothering you?

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Originally Posted by Miracle

@Foz:That's nice and all, but what will you call it? "Heavy Infantryman's Guild" doesn't sound very appealing.

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I believe what Foz meant was to consider it more of a Blacksmith's guild. One which specializes in making better weapons such as maces, warhammers and of course swords. But instead we have this guild that only is achieved by building sword units.

Tschüß!
Erich

n00b question, how can I upgrade weapons for my troops in the campaign?

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Originally Posted by darth_napo

n00b question, how can I upgrade weapons for my troops in the campaign?

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By building said Swordsmiths' Guild.

Tschüß!
Erich

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Originally Posted by dopp

You sure it's not the unit experience bug bothering you?

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I guess it is, I wasn't aware of it until now.
Any fix?

Before you end turn, save, load, empty/refill ALL training queues.
Do that every turn to keep it away, especially if you build buildings giving local exp boni.
And this is really offtopic

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Originally Posted by Fußball

By building said Swordsmiths' Guild.

Tschüß!
Erich

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that's the only way? I thought there are several ways to upgrade weapons in MTW, but I forget it.

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Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Before you end turn, save, load, empty/refill ALL training queues.
Do that every turn to keep it away, especially if you build buildings giving local exp boni.
And this is really offtopic

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Darn! And I thought the merchant bug/change capital was a hassle. What a mission.

Slightly more on topic, which file would I have to edit to change the +6 bonus referred to? And how could I change the swordsmith guild to make it more available to Turks?

You can't edit the bonus that weapon upgrade gives.

(without violating the EULA)

Is there a way to visually identify an unit with weapons/armor upgrades during the battle? Like you can see the experience by the number of banners.

I didn't know that the upgrades have such an impact on units performance, and now that I do, I'd like to see what I'm up against.

yes indeed there is and its something that is very important for single player and multiplayer alike to identify these units.as well as for "other" reasons in multiplayer.

lances will have a diamond shaped tip on their end.
regular length horse spears will have wings on the base of the spearhead.
spearmen will have a longer blade that shrouds part of the spear shaft.
halberds will have a blockier thicker appearance with the blade.
two handed swords will have flamberge style(wavy) pattern to their swords.

swords and shields, and pikemen are the hardest to detect i think.

i cant remember but it is possible pikes have wings on their spear tips when upgraded but im not sure on this.

Longswords have a bronze-colored blocker instead of an iron one if upgraded.

Well, the swords look better, they get a nicer overall shape and some golden lines.
Hammers also change and look more brutal for two-handed hammers. VHI will get hammers that look like a hand with a sharp bolt in it.
I'm not sure about maces, have hardly seen any without upgrade.
Axes I have never really checked either, my Varangian Guard has nice, big axes but I haven't seen them without upgrade yet.
Lances of my byzantine cavalry(except Latinkon or how the westerners are called in english) didn't seem to change in any way, found that quite weird, I just couldn't find a difference.

And armour upgrades should be quite obvious.

I really love the work they put into all this upgrade stuff, sometimes I build the armourers later than necessary just to see how the armour of the units evolves.:2thumbsup:

Thank you, I've never noticed this before.

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Originally Posted by Miracle

@Foz:That's nice and all, but what will you call it? "Heavy Infantryman's Guild" doesn't sound very appealing.

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Originally Posted by Fußball

I believe what Foz meant was to consider it more of a Blacksmith's guild. One which specializes in making better weapons such as maces, warhammers and of course swords. But instead we have this guild that only is achieved by building sword units.

Tschüß!
Erich

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Quite right, Fußball. I use the heavy infantry classification for the guild points trigger because it, IMO, most clearly exhibits troops which would need higher quality professional melee weapons that would attract master blacksmiths. The game seems to designate non-heavy troops as typically militia or at least considerably less professional than their heavy counterparts, so I decided to extend that difference into the melee weapon guild. It makes sense that high quality professional armies, whatever weapons they wield, should be able to attract and benefit from the improved craftsmanship better smiths can provide. So yes, the idea was for it primarily to reflect the conditions that would attract and make use of better weaponsmiths as opposed to simply swordsmiths in particular, and so I chose to draw upon the more professional (i.e. heavy) units as a primary way to attract the guild. In fact "weaponsmiths guild" doesn't sound like a bad name at all for it, all things considered.

You could have a trigger similar to the cavalry trigger, only testing for infantry (spearmen are a separate category). Nice and simple, plus you won't need to worry about having 100000 triggers to include every sword unit in the game.

Best thing I've found to do to prevent mass exploitation of this +6 upgrade is to make the cost of upgrading weapons in the EDU much, much more expensive. Like literally 5 times the default value. I'm loathe to remove the functionality completely since I enjoy the graphical changes to the weapons on the battlemap.

In terms of the Easterns factons one just has to even up the score a little. For example, enabling Dismounted Boyar Sons and Druchima to contribute towards Swordsmiths for Russia, Dismounted Sipahi and Naffatun (they actually have swords) for Turks, as well as Naffatun and sopmething else for the Egyptians. I actually enabled Sudanese Tribesman to be built by the Egyptians and Moors so that should help them. Also, one can allow HBGs to be built in castles and that lessens the spread of Swordsmiths Guilds considerably.

Well increasing the cost of the upgrade wouldn't do much for newly trained units who come out with upgrades already though. Only for units you send in for retraining.

I know, but retraining units effectively is easily one of the main things that differentiates the human from the AI; moving units from one city to the next to get the latest upgrades. That at least puts the dampners on that.

Swordsmith's Guild also does not have to be limited to dismounted infantry. Cavalry have swords too, mighty fine ones at that. e.g: Mamlukes, Ghulams, Sipahi.