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We need more controversy in the Backroom! :smash:
So:
Whites do better in schools than blacks. Asians do better than whites. Ashkenazi Jews outperform both.
This is owing to genetic variations in cognitive abilities, which are not equally distributed among all groups of people.
True?
False?
Gah?
Heh, I'm the fifth to vote, and the first one to reply...
Anyway, I voted a solid GAH! The reason? This is completely useless information, it cannot be applied to anything at all in reality, whatever the answer.
As 'races' go, no, the statement is false. Certain groups of people might be different, though, however it has nothing to do with race.
CR
In other words, you mean that genetics doesn't affect anything, but social influence does?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit
No. These stereotypes exist and therefore it manifests itself regardless of actual abilities in people.
Men have long been thougt of as better in mathematics than women. On tests were people are informed of this women do more poorly than men, than in the control group. On tests where it is emphasized that asians are better, they did better than the control group.
The same can be seen in sports, the "white men can't jump" phenonomen, when this is emphasized white men do worse at sports than blacks. Similarly blacks do worse at sports typically associated rich white people like sailing and such.
Basically if a certain stereotype exists in an environment then people are prone to live up to it either consciously or subconsciously..
Well over here it isn't quite as easy to generalise like that since most people have both Maori and Pakeha heritage, but supposedly accoording to the government, Maori don't pass as well as Pakeha. But that is changing however, and I know it is not by much because I have a Maori friend studying law at uni in Wellington and another in the same year as me who thrashed the rest of the classes score last year in the Mathematics exams. Generally there is a large group of both Maori and Pakeha who have no wish to be at school so I'd say it isn't genetics at all.
I also have an Chinese friend who is scarily intelligent, as in he beats the teachers at the tests and corrects them during class. But his parents have extremely high expectations of him and weren't very happy when he got a B- in his piano exam. So it's a lot of factors, much more to do with a student's home life and motivation than their actual intelligence level.
I'm saying race and any genetics outside of skin color don't correlate.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
CR
Until credible evidence is found that suggests that Whites are indeed Smater than Blacks, I will have to vote False.
Impossible. As long as certain people exist (that is, the great majority of high school students, at least), that statement is false.
I say True...
Octosquid's are much smarter than all other intelligent races..
All hail the Octosquid!
I'm asian. ~:D
That's because they have to calculate in octal rather than decimal. And the photo in the other thread shows that they are well red.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianofsmeg16
Aside from Pigment in the skin, Genetic Variances (however subtle they may be), and social influences. Every Human Being is thus.
Oh yeah? Then why do they have tentacles? :inquisitive:Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost
Flippity floppity floop, fo' shizzle my nizzle, brothas. Where's mah chikenz and melons?:book:
:inquisitive:
Well, that's different.
CR
No different than this topic. :tongueg:
Bah, I've failed. No heated debate, controversy and fist-fights yet. :shame:
I don't know about blacks and whites, but I believe the french have more brain than the texans...:laugh4:
There are genius' and dummies in all races but the average intelligence and ability to progress of some races are higher than others.
Well, that's because the French have such big heads. :painting:Quote:
Originally Posted by Soulforged
Actually, it is really unfair to say anything bad about Texans - it is no fault of their own that they are perceptually challanged. :tumbleweed:
I agree. Humanity's ability to progress is much higher than that of the planktons and whatnot.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
The problem is of course finding geniuses among planktons.
Clever Louis. Just parse the sentence
Or for you old-timers, diagram it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis
He's made a statement that will support any of the 3 options he's put forward, with slight twists of word position within the diagram.
Bravo! He's missed a career opportunity as a writer of congressional legislation. :laugh4:
I think diffrent races do have varying degrees of intellegence. This doesnt mean one race is "stupid" but I think you are really turning a bilnd eye to things when you think everyone is on a level mental and physical playing feild
Quote:
Originally Posted by KafirChobee
.Quote:
I don't know about blacks and whites, but I believe the french have more brain than the texans..
:inquisitive:
"Minorities" may have less chances of a good education. This does not mean they lack the mental abilities to comeplete one...
Poeple who think whites are better are of equal intelligence to those that think blacks are better .
Patience Louis, have faith in your fellow orgahs and the tinderbox we call the Backroom.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Makes mines babaque puh-leze.Quote:
Where's mah chikenz
Replace the word races with individuals and many would agree. The uneven playing field is due to cultural/societal practices not genetic differences.Quote:
I think diffrent races do have varying degrees of intellegence. This doesnt mean one race is "stupid" but I think you are really turning a bilnd eye to things when you think everyone is on a level mental and physical playing feild
Its not about being better its about being different. If there were no such thing as diffrences there would be less Jewish scientists and more jewish sports stars and vice versaQuote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Of course. Get back to sucking pork rinds and driving a decaying muscle car you honky.Quote:
Originally Posted by PanzerJager
There. Controversy.
Why does it have to be genetic? Why couldn't it be social?Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Becuase everone dreams of being a sports star when they grow up. So why is it that the majority are black? Do black people have some sort of sports playing culture of which I am unawre?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
All races are equally stupid. Besides the only race I know of is the Human one.
From what I've gathered from American popular culture, then yes. If everyone plays the same sport and it's considered as a good way out of the poor neighbourhood, you'll have tilted numbers of the elite performers (think of what sports that are dominated by blacks).Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Or are the Brazilians genetically superior on soccer? :laugh4:
Although sprint is an interesting sport in this aspect, because I'm not sure how the numbers of practititioners are compared to the upper elite.
As for the subject at hand, and genetical dispersion between large populations are so small that the cultural backround has a considerble more influence. So taliking about it in the way of race is folly, hampering, damaging and doesn't really have any benefits.
:fainting:
in other news, the concept of dividing the human species into races have long since been rejected by mainstream scientists.
Now strike you made me laugh , there was this film once that got them oscar thingies ,a great monologue by an actor playing a Jewish scientist was contained thererin .Quote:
If there were no such thing as diffrences there would be less Jewish scientists and more jewish sports stars and vice versa
So gentlemen can we come to an agreement......Can he be Jewish and a scientist at the same time ?(it applies to all faiths):laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
Its a cultural thing. In America, blacks cultural holds them back.
Why was France's wrold cup team all black? Why are east asians disproporanant in advanced maths? Why? More whites are in poverty than blacks why arent as many poor whites playing pro sports? Why are ALL the top sprinters black? Why are all the top powerlifters from nordic or baltic countries? We arent all the same. We are all different
We are all individuals , just like everyone else:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
We arent all the same. We are all different
well yea but tis stupid to say race doesnt matter. Why are some dieases more prevlant in jews than whites or blacks than asians? Just becuase were different does not mean one is better. Prove me wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:Quote:
Prove me wrong.
or you could do that
The most striking example of this is long-distance running. Of the world's top twenty marathon runners, twelve belong to the same small tribe from Kenya.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
Linky.Quote:
Genes for long-distance running?
The Kalenjin tribe lives in a province in the northwest of Kenya. Astonishingly, 12 of the world's top-20 distance runners are Kalenjin. Their seemingly effortless victories in some marathons have sparked off a passionate debate about genetic advantage in long-distance running.
I think the issue is that with most things the variance within a group is far larger then the variance between groups.
Who cares. More interesting, quite unlike the popular(especially among blacks) believes white males have larger penises.
Good point, but assuming that we're only interested in an average then I wouldn't be suprised if there some difference, however small. But worthless because of said variance.Quote:
I think the issue is that with most things the variance within a group is far larger then the variance between groups.
Perhaps africans have in their skull less brain and more cooling fluid to avoid getting overheated with all that sun in the desert. And since the true religion, Christianity, started with mediterrenean people I would suspect that they would be the smartest. After all, only the foolish would deviate from the path to salvation.
Edit: :wink:
Trying to salvage the conflict you hoped for in the thread Louis? Yes, it's possible to have genetical differences in all traits, but there isn't any place were intelligence has been in focus and small groups has the potential of larger anomalies than large groups (that will average out).Quote:
Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
Why aren't the Brazilian one all black?Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
As for the poor whites, I'm only speculating but there could be a stronger thought among the poor whites that you can go through with education and thus haven't gotten as much focus on sports. White men can't jump in the US but they can in Europe, something that doesn't make sence genetically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
The more important point is this though. Say that there's a fact that there's one group of people who's upper elite are smarter than the rest (proven genetically).
Now what to do with this information? Only focus on this group for higher education? You'll loose out the brilliant minds from the rest. Are the group "spikier" than the others, like left-handedness (more intelligent people and more mentally disabled than the average population)? Is it then good to shift the average, when the average are in fact the same?
Are the best of the best always needed in intelligence, or are good (+"common" sence) most often enough (clearly unlike sports)?
Simply put, as long as the induvidual differences are much larger that the group, focusing on the groups differences are irrelevant, while focusing on the induviduals are highly relevant.
Either I missed a smiley, or someone has a private wormhole back to the 19th century....Quote:
Perhaps africans have in their skull less brain and more cooling fluid to avoid getting overheated with all that sun in the desert. And since the true religion, Christianity, started with mediterrenean people I would suspect that they would be the smartest. After all, only the foolish would deviate from the path to salvation.
... but if you really want to go there, well check out the theory that the "true religion" is that of Yahweh's chosen people - the Israelites - who were a black people before being ousted from their place by the Ashkenazim (Khazar descent) and Sephardim (Edomite descent). http://www.hebrewisraelites.org It's all backed up by scripture....
EDIT:
:2thumbsup:Quote:
Edit: :wink:
My thoughts exactly, it's hard to debate since we don't specify what we are talking about: modus, average, median, quantiles ? Or what threshold to use as 'significant'. Or how this 'intelligence' thing is supposed to be measured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Papewaio
Genes matter when it comes to intelligence, but no race has a monopoly on the 'smart genes'.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6223968.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6150042.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6176070.stm
Which all helps prove nothing, except don't be a boy in a British school.
False...
First, who's "white" and who's "black"? There is too much mixing to use the descriptions. You also have to consider the economic background and home life background of the students. If you look at the US, by percentage, many more black children come from broken homes and poverty as compared to "white" households. But at the same time, you can go to the Appalacians and meet some whites up there that are still trying to figure out how many angels can sit on a needle point or how old the tortise is that is carrying the earth on his back. Anyway, its not a race issue because there are just too many factors that figure into how well someone does in school. Now I'll tell you this, the bruthas have us crackers on the pecker size. I was in basic training and them homies be packin'!!! Shu nuff....:yes:
True.
And the same studies that show whites as being smarter than blacks also show Asians, or rather east Asians, as being smarter than whites. I really don't see the big deal here. It's not as if there's some grand conspiracy peddling this stuff. The usual diatribe coming from the rabidly pro-environmental determinism crowd decries such research as being fascist in nature, funded by neo-nazi groups, etc. I really need to know why such groups would fund research that ultimately smashes their racial supremacy views into dust? Are we the unknowing victims of an international Oriental conspiracy? Should the Occident rise up in revolution and defeat our epicanthic overlords?
It's amazing how uncomfortable the subject of intelligence makes people. Only rabid fans of environmental determinism would fail to acknowledge that blacks are, racially speaking, the 'fastest' or most 'naturally athletic' race on the planet. The evidence is hard to overlook, countless examples in professional sports seem to support that argument. If it is not genetically related then what... they train harder than everyone else?!? Even if that was the case the law of averages would still show a healthy sampling of non-black athletes making the top cut but it doesn't. Also take note of the dearth of east Asian athletes failing to make a dent in the top tiers of the same sports that blacks excel in... I'm supposed to believe that places like Japan, China and South Korea are incapable of producing disciplined, well trained athletes that can excel in speed oriented sports?!? Anyway there was a time when the notion that blacks were faster or more athletically gifted than everyone else was extremely unpopular. However thanks to the highly meritocratic nature of sports, especially over the last 30-40 years, the evidence stares back at us with countless broken records and the sheer dominance by athletes of sub-Saharan African ancestry. We've reached the point where most people are perfectly comfortable with the notion that blacks are expected to dominate in certain sports. In that same time frame a similar level of meritocracy has existed in the academic and professional arenas of the west (especially the US) and for some reason people are still quick to dismiss the academic and socio-economic performance of Jews and East Asians as being related to genetic based intelligence. Upbringing and work ethic always seem to be the buzz words and yet nobody has actually shown how these factors can turn mediocrity into genius, let alone give someone a 10-15 point advantage in IQ. No race or ethnic group may hold a 'monopoly' on genes responsible for intelligence but there does seem to be evidence that some ethnic groups or races have these genes in greater abundance than others.
STFS made an interesting point about the relative intelligence of Jews and how their academic performance must be genetically related. Oddly enough a year or so ago a highly controversial and fascinating article was published in New York magazine titled "The Jewish Brain" (Larry David's prominent balding cranium was featured on the cover) dealt with this exact subject.
http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/culture/features/1478/
As with blacks and athletics it's a bit much to insist that every Ashkenazi Jewish scholar, scientist or mathematician of note was a success due to boundless ambition, an unequalled work ethic or an ideal family atmosphere. Jews account for a mere 0.25 percent of the world population and 3 percent of the US population and yet they account for 27 percent of all American Nobel Prize winners, 25 percent of all ACM Turing Award winners for computer science and 50 percent of the world's chess champions. It really is a bit much to think that environment is the main factor at work here.
The idea of genetic equality amongst individuals, ethnic groups or races is truly ridiculous. Arguing over the definition of race or ethnicity and attempting to intellectualize those terms to some unwieldy abstraction smacks of subconscious fuelled fear. Why aren't we seeing these same sort of arguments taking place in professional sports? How do we define fast? How does one accurately measure testosterone levels? What are the criteria for determining short or long muscle strands? Etc., etc. The crux of the problem is that intelligence is a sore spot with most people and is a topic few people discuss as openly as physicality. The idea that everyone has the same genetic potential as everyone else flies in the face of the laws of nature (if it were the case then we'd be a species of monozygote siblings or clones) so why shouldn't it apply to groups that have a higher percentage of shared genes than others? The idea that intelligence can be considered a distinct and seperate category from any other physical trait is in itself a feat of fear fuelled egotism.
Oh to have a time machine to play with! I firmly believe that a day will come where every aspect of the human animal is going to laid bare, dissected and categorized to the extreme. I wonder what kind of chuckles future generations are going to have when they look back at our ego fueled delusions about our own species.
Education isn't as much about intelligence thant it is about learning, you are supposed to sit around and read and learn and read and learn and read and...:Zzzz:
Well, I'm not good at that, maybe because my parents didn't make me work as a kid, maybe not. My guess is that it's a cultural thing, Asians work a lot and have that somehow in their culture, so they are better at school, whites are somewhere in the middle and people from hot very countries where work is a lot harder are maybe less used to working hard(and their kids kind of learn that from their parents after they moved to another country I guess).
That's just my theory, I blame culture and circumstances and it's just an explanation for how people do in school(which might explain certain studies), intelligence is probably very similar on average.
I can remember my first dog a rot/german sheperd mix. Dumb as a brick, scared of it's own shadow and could barely figure out catch. Stronger and faster then most dogs I've seen. I know own a Labrador retriever, smartest little thing I've seen. She doesnt play fetch she'll play catch, can nearly unlock a door deadbolted if she could grip the doorknob better.
Humans just like dogs are not the same. If you've ever looked at the average hieght of black people to asians there's a fair bit of seperation there. Genetics arent equal, not everyone is equally intelligent not everyone can clean jerk 300lb's, not everyone can run a mile in under 4 minutes. Sure there's a bit of training and parenting involved but genetics plays a part, nature and nurture play into effect.
But IQ numbers arent effected by education. The smartest person I've met, didn't even make it through high school. Could rebuild a car's engine by the age of 14. He was working in an auto shop at 16. Anything mechanical or electrical you gave him he could take apart and rebuild/fix.Quote:
Education isn't as much about intelligence thant it is about learning, you are supposed to sit around and read and learn and read and learn and read and...
Only a few things make one humanbeing excell over another - practice, practice, practice and/or study, study, study. Since the genes of mankind are +99.9% identical - it leaves that 0.10% that determines the cosmetic make-up of whom we are.
Cultural differences seperate us more than race. imo
In Florida, we have a small town that produces an unproptionately high degree of excellent atheletes (mostly football, but a number basketballers as well). There was a buncha racial hooplah about it a number of years ago - "they excell, because of their former slave masters' breeding programs" and such. When one visits this town on any given non-school day the cause becomes more evident - these kids work like hell to be the best they can be in sports and have some excellent coaches (that are ignored for their tallents, by colleges, because of race). I've seen these kids running up and down the emergency dikes outside their town - without supervision, to get an edge. They are hungry to suceed - and the hungriest do.
Self motivation wins ever time, and it has little to do with race.
and you dont think other kids work just as hard or even harder?Quote:
Originally Posted by KafirChobee
Uhm....that's due to social/cultural/continent differences. Where one disease is common, the people there get resistant to it(eventually). Release said disease on another part of the world, and you'll have the black plague all over again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Strike For The South
please... tell me you got the :daisy: golf shoes!
I think SFTS was referring to hereditary diseases, not the infectious kind. The article I linked to covered this as well. Because of cultural isolation and inbreeding Jews are much more likely to suffer from Gaucher, Niemann-Pick, mucolipidosis type IV, and Tay-Sachs diseases than any other ethnic group. The research covered by this article theorizes that the same inbreeding which allowed such diseases to become widespread in the Ashkenazi population also allowed the spread of those genes responsible for intelligence.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoreTore
This is a sensible argument but the naysayers will cite the fact that the average breed of canine has less in common with other breeds than the average ethnic group or race has with one another. It doesn't negate the argument but spins it in such a way as to discredit the analogy. I have yet to see concrete numbers on the canine breeds that are the fewest generations apart versus the ones that are the farthest from one another.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex
I had a childhood friend who was naturally gifted and way above average in terms of intelligence. His family was of Greek & Jewish ancestry. Brilliant? Not sure but both he and his brother (and to a lesser extent his sister) were way above average and were attending select NY public schools meant for students at the upper end of the Bell Curve (Stuyvesant and Hunter). Their family atmosphere was ridiculously lax compared to mine, I certainly saw no evidence to support any kind of discipline regarding study habits or relevant practices. In fact I could say theirs was a very casual and dysfunctional family.Quote:
Originally Posted by BigTex
So humanity has became about 20 points smarter in IQ since they started the IQ tests thanks to thier improved genetical makeup? Upbringing and study methods have a major influence on IQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spino
I'll give you that the American Jews can very well be more intelligent than the average American, although I suspect that the most influencal thing happened a bit more than 70 years ago. If you export the social elite and exclude the rest, you're going to have disprotional numbers for some generations afterwards, both to genetical factors and environmental).Quote:
Originally Posted by Spino
Point is that blacks, whites, southeast asians are very large groups and unless you can find signs that they have had genetical tendencies to breed more intelligent people then you don't really have a genetical argument.
I like the separation of wisdom and intelligence by the D&D game system so I'll push on that. To make an example I red about a while ago:Quote:
Originally Posted by Spino
It was student who was considered very good by the teacher that had gotten an assignment on writing about some subject (don't remember) and he wrote an exellent article about it. It was only one flaw, it was an exact copy of a newpaper article, so he failed the assignmet due to cheating. This angered the student very much as he hadn't cheated in his opinion, he had memorized the article word by word... Is he intelligent or not? I would say no and yet I know that his skill would show great intelligence in plenty of subjects.
You're mixing induviduals and major population groups again, the induviduals varies, but you'll need more concrete evidence of why they should be a genetical difference when it's known that the environmental factors have considerble influence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spino
You mean the age when your fate was chosen before you was born? Lets hope that there isn't a lack of sevage workers at the time of you conception --> birth, not that you care, you'll do an exellent job on it and like your work as well. Charming daysQuote:
Originally Posted by Spino
Quote:
My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?
Chairman Sheng-ji Yang, "Essays on Mind and Matter"
The Big Question is, where are we going with this?
Oh right there's genetic variation between groups. Everyone agrees, group-hug et cetera. However, "races" is just a particularly expressive term denoting to differences in melanin, caused by, you guessed it, genetics.
In other words, it is entirely an artificial creation that marks a genetic difference not that much more important than any other gene differences, except maybe if you go on the evolutionary psychology trip and argues a case where humans like to segregate based on something visible, i.e. because skin tone is a very visible phenotype it is slightly more important than genotypes that don't get a chance to be expressed. That would probably explain key genetic differences between groups but even then I'm not particularly sure of the validity of the argument.
The appearance of a stonewalling aversion from us liberals to the point that Louis raised (controversially ~;) ) is mostly due to what conclusion people suspect this will lead to. We all know what that means: "Oh right, whites are smarter/stupider/stronger/weaker/hotter than blacks, let's segregate and make our educations different." Also, Papewaio points out that the recognition of this "fact" is essentially irrelevant from an everyday viewpoint especially since variation between individuals are much greater than variations between the artificial groups -- if one focuses on that skin tone one's completely missing the point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfmrJwRLL0s
"Please do not show me that at this point in time."
It is not a matter of race, but of environment. Many blacks in America and Europe grow up in poorer areas where schools are wretched and there are very few ways to upgrade one's living conditions. However, many whites live in areas with significantly better schools and environments in which the 1 in 1.000.000 chance fo becoming a professional athlete or turning to crime are not the two ways to improve one's situation.
Wow, it feels good to be back in the backroom.
[QUOTE=IrishArmenian]It is not a matter of race, but of environment. Many blacks in America and Europe grow up in poorer areas where schools are wretched and there are very few ways to upgrade one's living conditions. However, many whites live in areas with significantly better schools and environments in which the 1 in 1.000.000 chance fo becoming a professional athlete or turning to crime are not the two ways to improve one's situation./QUOTE]
This does nothing to explain how Hispanics of say, Mexican ancestry (a group that suffers many of the same ills you mentioned) move into those same poor neighborhoods with lousy environments and schools and yet still manage to do better than blacks. Nor does it explain how east and southeast asian immigrants, many of whom arrive in America unable to speak English, also move into rough or not-so-spectacular neighborhoods and in the span of one generation manage to wind up doing better than everyone else while ranking last in crime, illegitimacy, drug & alcohol abuse, etc.
Sunset Park is the neighborhood next to mine. It was until about 10-15 years ago, predominantly Afro-Hispanic (Puerto Rican & Dominican) and always more 'criminally exciting' than my own. Around 1993 or so I noticed more and more Chinese faces getting on the train at the Sunset Park stops (59th St, 53rd & 45th Streets). The overwhelming majority of those immigrants were clearly in the low income tax bracket, you could tell just by looking at their discount shop clothing. About 5 years later it became painfully easy to identify which sections of Sunset Park were Chinese and which were Puerto Rican and Dominican. The Chinese areas sport less graffiti, less trash on the streets, better kept properties and virtually none of their kids loiter about after dark. The most glaring difference is the number of new and successful businesses one finds in the Chinese section. Pretty damn good for people who came to the States with next to nothing and a had to overcome a huge language barrier.
well, Spino, differences in culture can explain all of that. in fact, cultural anthropologists were the group of scientists that disagreed most to the statement "There are biological races in the species Homo sapiens." in a survey conducted in 1985 (more than 20 years ago, people.)
east asian excellence in maths can probably explained in the way business and enterpreneurship is emphasized in their culture as the path to success. They are comfortable with numbers because early in life they are taught that it is integral to business.
This reminds me of the chicken or egg argument. Culture is a by-product of humanity, not the other way around. One could argue that cultures which inculcate a sense of responsibility and encourage and strong work and study ethic in people are themselves the by-product of intelligence affecting genes which help create a more effective survival strategy. This is not to say that intelligent ethnic groups will always create effective, adaptable cultures but it is to say that they're more likely to create cultures that are conducive to survival than ethnic groups of comparatively lower intelligence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuni
I don't think culture can be dictated by such small differences in genes among peoples.
it's interesting that you tie culture to survival, in that somehow culture can dictate survival. I disagree.
If skin colour, bone structure, muscle tissue or susceptibility to certain physical and mental afflictions aren´t spread evenly across the races, why would intelligence, of all the human faculties, be spread equally?
Differences in (average) intelligence between races and culturally homogenous groups have been demonstrated ad nauseam, it is no use denying them. However, we are mostly unwilling to acknowledge such facts because we fear the consequences of our acknowledgment, particularly its abuse in the political arena.
Most people don't understand the law of averages. The fact that one group scores lower on intelligence than others does not preclude a particular member of that group being the most intelligent person in the world.
Anyway, I wouldn't want to live in a world that judges people by their intelligence only, and not by moral faculties (such as honesty or courage) and aesthetic faculties (creativity) as well. Better still, I wouldn' t want to live in a world that judges people solely by the group they come from, on any ground whatsoever.
Have you considered moving to another world ?Quote:
Better still, I wouldn' t want to live in a world that judges people solely by the group they come from, on any ground whatsoever.
Frequently, until I learned that whole groups of people are considering the same move. Kinda killed the fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tribesman
Seriously, there are enough people around with non-tribal attitudes to make my life bearable. My universe isn't all black like yours...
*desperately trying to stir up controversy*
There goes, these white stars make that black sky so much, much prettier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Are you waxing poetical on me, my friend on yonder Watergate? :beam:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fragony
If so I would have chosen Wilfred's Owen's 'Futility'. But go ahead rub me right there ~:flirt:Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Hear, hearQuote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
Hm... a test form chosen by whites, shows that whites are smarter than blacks, and some whites think that is conclusive proof that they're smarter than blacks... I wonder who is most stupid? :stupido:
The problem here is that race is just a cultural construct - pointing out and explaining the differences among races, because it is merely a cultural construct (not biological etc), is meaningless. moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian II
To illustrate: Suppose we divide all english nursery rhymes into three groups, based on how much the letter e appears in them. Even if we do establish that one group is better in artistic merit, and another in moral/social merit, it is meaningless, as the division is arbitrary.
You should really read up on the topic. Tests 'made by whites' consistently show that Asians are smartest. How could that be if the tests were self-serving? Intelligence tests have been corrected, refined and balanced for all sorts of factors that you couldn't even dream of (unless you are an accomplished statistician). The days of Whitey devising tests that illustrate his own superiority are long gone. There are Chinese IQ tests, African IQ tests...Quote:
Originally Posted by LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix
Read The Bell Curve by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray, a comprehensive 1994 overview of the issue (and vilified the world over by critics and reviewers who never took the trouble to read it).
The book discusses some of the consequences of the uneven spread of intelligence, defined as the capacity to perform logic-symbolic operetions. In a post-industrial economy that relies heavily on such operations, intelligence becomes a new and eventually dominant source of social stratification. The authors maintain that this explains many transitions that took place in post-war American society. They also state that intelligence correlates highly with meaningful social success (after duly factoring out all obvious bias).
By definition social constructs are never meaningless, they convey and attribute meaning. Berger and Luckmann's 1966 classic The Social Construction of Reality even states that all facts are social constructs so reality as a whole is socially constructed. Discuss. But do not dismiss easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuni
[quote=Spino]At that point it is a culture issue. It seems many in the African American culture do not stress education as much as others, which is a crime! Education is the way to not just a way of life, but also a greater understanding which is one of the greatest assets one can have.Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishArmenian
Education is not intelligence, but to get an education is an intelligent choice and a move in the right direction.