Building ships on the caspian?

Is it possible to build ships in any of the caspian sea ports?

i am playing as the haysadan. i control all the provinces surrounding the caspian barring cava masakata.
i dont seem to have the option of building a naval port in any of my cities, and spying on masakata it doesnt apppear to have a naval port either.

their is some rebel pirates in the caspian seas so i asumed i would be able to build ships somewhere, am i wrong?

i dont know if i understand eb fully yet, is it the case that there is only a limited number of provinces which will ever be able to build a naval dock?

You are exactly right. Not every coastline was capable of supporting the infrastructure and natural harbours required of military ship building. There is a map in the this thread, showing where the different harbour provinces are. I don't think the map is uptodate though, so it may not be exactly correct.

Foot

There was a trick used to keep the pirates from spawning in the Caspian but it ended up breaking trade in the Caspian as well...

No you can't build ships there .I spent(wasted) tons of money as Sauromatae to build ports there , just to have them permanently blocked by pirates , hehe.

Needless to say i went broke and lost.:laugh4:

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

There was a trick used to keep the pirates from spawning in the Caspian but it ended up breaking trade in the Caspian as well...

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why not give some of the province naval harbours?

if i wanted to change this myself where shoud i look?

You have to add hidden resources to the appropriate regions in the DESC_REGIONS.txt (and delete the map.rwm). I think 'smallfleet' is the hidden_resource you want (IIRC).

Methinks, gameplay-wise, it would be nice if at least one of those provinces were able to build basic war vessels, even if that's historically incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Swordmaster

Methinks, gameplay-wise, it would be nice if at least one of those provinces were able to build basic war vessels, even if that's historically incorrect.

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Not going to happen. Firstly, if only one port could build war vessels, why the hell would you? There would be no-one to fight except pirates, big fat waste of money. Secondly, we don't add things with no basis in historical fact, regardless of a so-called improvement in gameplay.

Foot

Word. My man Foot laying the smack-down.

Point taken, but there is no-one to fight anywhere anyway, except perhaps a solitary Ptolemaic fleet. Investing in war fleets for purposes other than fighting pirates looks like a waste of money, too. (Except perhaps if you're playing with BI).

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

You have to add hidden resources to the appropriate regions in the DESC_REGIONS.txt (and delete the map.rwm). I think 'smallfleet' is the hidden_resource you want (IIRC).

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would the changes work with a current save?

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Originally Posted by Foot

Not going to happen. Firstly, if only one port could build war vessels, why the hell would you? There would be no-one to fight except pirates, big fat waste of money. Secondly, we don't add things with no basis in historical fact, regardless of a so-called improvement in gameplay.

Foot

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Right, but in this case allowing military shipbuilding would be a rational response to an inadvertent, small inaccuracy within EB: the presence of powerful pirate fleets in the Caspian. Surely it makes sense to say that if there had been a problem with pirates interfering with marine trade in the Caspian during EB's timeframe, then nations bordering the sea would likely have responded by constructing their own ships to patrol the routes, or at lease developed the option to do so. It must make some kind of economic sense to tackle piracy, both in game terms and in real life, since they disrupt and plunder valuable trade.

I don't see that allowing some kind of shipbuilding on the Caspian has "no basis" in historical fact - there's been some kind of shipping on the Caspian since ancient days, so I would have thought it would have been feasible to construct shallow-draft patrol boats carrying a few marines with boarding equipment. I'm no expert on ancient seafaring, or on the Caspian, but where you can build and sail cargo vessels then surely you can build and sail some kind of military craft based on the same hull, even if it bares little resemblance to the galleys of the mediterranean.

If the game allows pirates to sail the Caspian in proper military vessels, then oughtn't it to allow for that to be counterbalanced in a manner that's plausible, if not archaeologically attested? Otherwise the neighbouring factions are at a disadvantage, prevented from building ships because they wouldn't have done so had the pirates not been there; when in EB the pirates are there.

Sorry for the longwindedness.

Point well made Barbarossa, except for several small but important facts. Firstly, and most importantly, we don't want pirates on the caspian, but we cannot stop them from spawning there. When we did it stopped all trade between ports, which is something we don't want to do. Secondly, afaik, there weren't enough trees in the nearby vicinity to support large fleets. Thirdly, you may well talk about small shallow-draft patrol boats, but seeing as our representation of ships in the game is of large fleets of 40-60 ships, our system doesn't have space to deal with military vessels on such a small level.

To repeat, if we could get rid of the pirates in the caspian we would. We can't, but please just ignore them as much as possible.

Foot

How can you ignore them if they're blockading your ports?

*If you can't*, however, you may want to search the net or forums for some cheat which allows you to teleport your characters to any given location - provided that the type of character can exist there (i.e. admirals on dry land is a bit tricky).
You can find the location you want by pointing your cursor at it; entering the RomeShell (press [~]) and typing:

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show_cursorstat

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Originally Posted by Foot

Point well made Barbarossa, except for several small but important facts. Firstly, and most importantly, we don't want pirates on the caspian, but we cannot stop them from spawning there. When we did it stopped all trade between ports, which is something we don't want to do. Secondly, afaik, there weren't enough trees in the nearby vicinity to support large fleets. Thirdly, you may well talk about small shallow-draft patrol boats, but seeing as our representation of ships in the game is of large fleets of 40-60 ships, our system doesn't have space to deal with military vessels on such a small level.

To repeat, if we could get rid of the pirates in the caspian we would. We can't, but please just ignore them as much as possible.

Foot

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Point taken. It's a shame that there aren't enough unit slots to have some kind of patrol boat to counter the pirates, but given the limitations I certainly wouldn't want to sacrifice one of the existing units to accomodate it.

1. Foot, you said it's a "big fat waste of money" to build a naval ports and a fleet just to hunt down the pirates. I say, at first it's an even bigger waste of money to upgrade your trading harbours there only to have them blocked by the pirates, and secondly building fleets outside in the mediterranean / ocean is just for the same reason only except you're playing with BI, besides of shipping around troops of course.

2. You said "there weren't enough trees in the nearby vicinity to support large fleets". Well, please take a look at the province of Hyrkania, and what you will most likely notice is the sheer abundance of trees there, just in the direct vicinity of the Caspian Sea. So either you aren't right about the trees or the map.

3. You said "our system doesn't have space to deal with military vessels on such a small level", talking of shallow-draft patrol boats. I think that the smallest size of boats, I think Pentecontarai, would be perfect to represent those shallow-draft patrol boats. They aren't big, they aren't expensive, and they are buildable with the smallest size of naval port.

I think Zadrakata, Hyrkania is a perfect place to allow for the construction of those little ships. Otherwise, the Caspian Sea is a little bit "Dead Sea", almost useless for the player, only a big hole in the map.~:)

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

You have to add hidden resources to the appropriate regions in the DESC_REGIONS.txt (and delete the map.rwm). I think 'smallfleet' is the hidden_resource you want (IIRC).

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are you sure that is the name of the file? i cant find it?

1) You can't just use any kind of tree to build a ship. Only few types of tree allow for lightweight yet strong constructions wich also were waterproof - and the wood needed to have 'aged': if it hadn't water could get into the timber itself.
2) I find most pirates to do nothing but run a shipping business between Prhaaspa and Zadrakata. They don't block my ports. They just... sail. :shrug: And not because my Seleukid kingdom has been kind to the independents in the past or some such thing.

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Originally Posted by KARTLOS

are you sure that is the name of the file? i cant find it?

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The DR file should be located in the \Maps\Base folder.

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

The DR file should be located in the \Maps\Base folder.

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found it, is this going to work with a current save?

i am going to give it a go

After finally downloading and playing EB for the first time, I was at first blown away by how much more informaton the campaign map seems to convey, with all of the vineyards, quarries, small towns, etc. It really livens things up. I also am enjoying all of the descriptions....I've learned quite a bit about ancient military technology thanks to this game, and more specifically this mod. So, I'm sure you've heard this a million times, but thanks for the great mod. :2thumbsup:

That being said, I do have a few, small criticisms I would like to speak about.

BTW, this is EB v.0.8.1a V2, with no mods whatsoever. I decided to play vanilla EB at first, to get the full experience before I mod the game to suit my tastes.

As far as A.I. progression goes, it's gone rather well. I haven't really been able to blitz, which I'm thankful for. By 245 BC, I've only been able to conquer Korinthos, Demetrias, Pella, Thermon, Chalcis, and Kydonia. I'm allied with the Ptolemaioi, Baktria, and Epeiros. Ptolemaioi are doing rather well in Anatolia, Carthage is a real powerhouse in western North Africa, and Roma is allied with Carthage, with Epeiros as a client kingdom (even though Epeiros seem to be doing quite well, as they control the entire dalmatian coast all the way up the Adriatic, and they've managed to maintian control of Tarentum as well).

Anyways, I only have two criticisms as of right now, and they both involve pirates.

1. In 245 BC, there are at least 5 massive pirate fleets in the Aegean alone. I can generally only afford 2 fleets. Trying to control all of those islands in the Aegean with two fleets vs. some pirate fleets which are nearly 10 times as strong as my own fleet is fairly impossible. Is there any way to tone those pirate fleets a bit? I usually enjoy pirate fleets, as they add another challenge to the game, but this is just silliness.

2. Please allow me to build naval vessels on the Caspian Sea. I find it hard to believe that there has never been a military naval vessel built on that sea. Quite frankly, even if there wasn't, it should be allowed. Perhaps one on each coast. Otherwise, you're sort of nuking the steppe peoples ability to get money, as the pirate fleets inevitably blockade their ports. For countries like Sauromatae and Pahlava, this can be a serious hindrance on an early economy.

Aside from those minor quibbles, I am really enjoying your mod, and know that I'll never be able to play vanilla RTW again.

Thanks for your time.:beam:

As far as pirates go, as I understand it, they spawn somewhere secluded, like the Black Sea, or up around the Baltic, and there collect because of no naval power to oppose them. Then, they swim on down to the Mediterranean with a full stack, because what started out as a very small fleet slowly built up over years.

It wouldn't surprise me if your pirate's there had celtic or some kind of northern name.

Changes to the hidden_resources shouldn't cause big problems. If you delete the map.rwm, it should be save game compatible. (It may not be 100% safe and may cause problems, but I do it all the time and haven't had any problems that I could connect to the HRs.)

You could just cheat and teleport a fleet to the Caspian and kill the pirates, then leave it there to kill future pirates...

1- Yeah, the pirates just collect into large groups and don't start as such. They seem to collect in little inlet sea areas where they get stuck. They may be weakened in the future.

2- There is a whole thread going on this right now. Basically, each EB 'ship' equals a fleet. The number in the corner is the number of ships, not people. And whereas there might be ships on the Caspian, it would be inappropriate to have large fleets there.

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

1- Yeah, the pirates just collect into large groups and don't start as such. They seem to collect in little inlet sea areas where they get stuck. They may be weakened in the future.

2- There is a whole thread going on this right now. Basically, each EB 'ship' equals a fleet. The number in the corner is the number of ships, not people. And whereas there might be ships on the Caspian, it would be inappropriate to have large fleets there.

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I'm glad to hear that the pirates may be weakened. They were rather easy to deal with in the beginning, but the last fleet had over 200 ships, including 3 great fleets, and several small fleets. My ports are constantly besieged.

As to the second part of your post, I understand that there weren't any large fleets on the Caspian Sea, but after 272 BC, the game doesn't match history anyways. I also think it's quite ahistorical to restrict ship-building on ANY sea, as all seas had merchant and military vessels. I also find it hard to believe that a fleet of 27 ships has never been assembled on the Caspian. Personally, I don't see why, if two powers controlled different regions of the caspian sea, they would never fight in a naval engagement. As a matter of fact, they would probably invade the other by sea, as this was the easiest and cheapest ways to move troops and supplies, and would be far easier than walking all the way around. I'm not talking Triere fleets or anything, Pentoconter fleets would suit me just fine. Hell, even Lemboi fleets would be better than nothing.

Thanks for your responses. :2thumbsup:

Based on my experience with EB pirates: the way to get rid of them is to ignore them. Attack them, and they'll retaliate. Stay out of their way, pretend not to know about them blockading one port once in a while, and make sure your fleets are out of pirate attacking range. Pirates really come and go, and only stay if you hinder them.

i made the edit, it seem to have worked

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

You could just cheat and teleport a fleet to the Caspian and kill the pirates, then leave it there to kill future pirates...

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Well, if you're going to encourage that, why not just let small ships be built in the caspian? That seems a lot less ahistorical than teleporting fleets from the mediterranean.

A fortiori?

1) Ships in Caspian sea *not needed*, IIRC. Yes their are pirates, and yes they do move. So what? Those pirates hardly ever blocked my ports. (I currently own 2 out of the 6 available.)
2) Ships like we know it in EB simply wouldn't have worked there. Patrol boats hardly make for a fleet.
3) It's a pity that we can't prevent the pirates from being spawned there, without killing off the local sea trade. (Really does make you wonder what the merchants traded unofficially, now doesn't it? :wink: )
4) So: either cheat, or ignore. And think of the bright side of Caspian Piracy: the more pirates that gather in the Caspian the less do elsewhere in far more important regions.

If the EB team takes a hardline stance against naval bases on The Caspian, and other area's like it, then why not limit the military ports to only the most basic fleets, like Lemboi as Bootsiuv suggested.

Hell, perhaps it could even be considered to have a small, inferior quality fleet recruited at mercantile-level ports called "Patrol Fleet", or "Coastal Defense Fleet", or something of that manner.

If there are pirate warships on the Caspian then someone built the things unless they were portaged from the Med :beam:

Unfortunately, unless you can restrict where the AI plops the pirate ships, adding a few non-historical shipyards should go very well with the non-historical pirate scourge.

Pirates are a pain in VH (because of autoresolve), but just recently in my Aedui campaign, which is H/M, I built one unit of some large ships that I can't name. They were, I believe, the best naval unit the Celts get with recruitment cost 10,000 and upkeep some 3,000 mnai. That one fleet with 50 ships (men) attacked a pirate fleet with 20 units, two of which were "Great pirate fleets", 1050 ships altogether. Heroic victory. My fleet lost about 20 ships, sinking almost 400. See, the secret in dealing with pirates is that their ships are like canoos. A real military fleet can handle any sized pirate horde.

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Originally Posted by Thaatu

Pirates are a pain in VH (because of autoresolve), but just recently in my Aedui campaign, which is H/M, I built one unit of some large ships that I can't name. They were, I believe, the best naval unit the Celts get with recruitment cost 10,000 and upkeep some 3,000 mnai. That one fleet with 50 ships (men) attacked a pirate fleet with 20 units, two of which were "Great pirate fleets", 1050 ships altogether. Heroic victory. My fleet lost about 20 ships, sinking almost 400. See, the secret in dealing with pirates is that their ships are like canoos. A real military fleet can handle any sized pirate horde.

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I actually was going to mention that....they do seem to die fairly easily. My 27 ship Penteconter fleet defeated a fleet of over 200 pirate ships.

The only problem is that sometimes they don't win.

I'm playing KH, and have a small greek empire going. I control Sparte, Korinthos, Athenia, Thermon, Demetrias, Pella, Chalcydis, and Kydonia. After pushing Makedonia off of the mainland (they control Bithynia and Lesbos), I decided to try for a re-attempt of the athenian invasion of Sikilia, hoping to bring Syrakousia into the Koinon. My fleet of 53 Penteconters was forced to fight three battles in the south Adriatic, and the entire fleet was lost on the fourth battle in one turn (along with my entire 20 unit stack, which included a young general who was just married into the family).

After that debacle, I tried for an invasion of Kyrenaica, and met with more success, but I still had to wade through over 400 pirate ships to reach the North Africa coast....I was just fortunate to have won all of the battle that turn. It's just a little much is all.

That, however, I could probably deal with. I really can't help but disagree with the developers insistence on not allowing even Lemboi fleets in the Caspian Sea. Perhaps someone knowledgeable could create a mini-mod to alleviate this for those who would like the option, even if it will be rarely used.

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Originally Posted by Bootsiuv

Well, if you're going to encourage that, why not just let small ships be built in the caspian? That seems a lot less ahistorical than teleporting fleets from the mediterranean.

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I wasn't really indorsing doing so. I personally, ignore pirates in the Caspian.

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Originally Posted by MarcusAureliusAntoninus

I wasn't really indorsing doing so. I personally, ignore pirates in the Caspian.

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Fair enough. Like I said, they're minor quibbles. It's definitely the funnest mod I've played thus far (well, this and ROP Beta 2.1)

First I was also annoyed about the pirates, especially one time when they sunk my Lemboi fleet with my newly recruited invincible full stack super elite army on board.:furious3:

On the other hand seafaring in the ancient world was dangerous and great losses occured frequently. So I take the pirates as the avatars of the danger of the sea itself (cause there are no storms etc. in EB).

And imagine the feeling you get when later your triere fleets wipe the pirates from the sea. :2thumbsup: Before that time you have to be careful and suffer a bit.

If you cannot afford to loose a fight, use the console (^ button on my board) and type "auto_win defender".


I like very much the posted idea that a small fleet or single ships could be recruited in mercantile ports. That would be great for reconnaissance and patroling alike. Perhaps also naval mercenary ships are possible which could be recruited in sea provinces?

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Originally Posted by geala

I like very much the posted idea that a small fleet or single ships could be recruited in mercantile ports. That would be great for reconnaissance and patroling alike. Perhaps also naval mercenary ships are possible which could be recruited in sea provinces?

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We can do merc ships in EB2, but not in RTW. Don't know if we will have merc ships of course.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Thaatu

Pirates are a pain in VH (because of autoresolve), but just recently in my Aedui campaign, which is H/M, I built one unit of some large ships that I can't name. They were, I believe, the best naval unit the Celts get with recruitment cost 10,000 and upkeep some 3,000 mnai. That one fleet with 50 ships (men) attacked a pirate fleet with 20 units, two of which were "Great pirate fleets", 1050 ships altogether. Heroic victory. My fleet lost about 20 ships, sinking almost 400. See, the secret in dealing with pirates is that their ships are like canoos. A real military fleet can handle any sized pirate horde.

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I've never personally tried that method. I'm all about access to repair shops to save experience so my usual anti-pirate fleet (and this works quite well for my Roman empire) is 5 of the second cheapest warship you can buy. This will take a great pirate fleet with minimal losses and once you have some experience, pretty much no losses (and easy to replace if you do).

I can see smaller countries with larger borders to cover having a harder time with this though.

i can understand ed's reasons for not allowing ship production on the caspian. ive modded the game to allow it though. partially i was annoyed about the pirates, and partially because my empire encompasses the caspian and i would like to be able to transport units accross it. though it was not a technique used in this time period i dont think it is beyond the realms of possibility that an inspired ruler would build a transport fleelt there. 1000yrs later the vikings did go raiding in iran and armenia via the caspian.

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

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Originally Posted by russia almighty

I got to admit though I do like Neitos . Nothing more satisfying than disciplined "barbarians" cutting down "civilized" people .

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if a large empire had the desire the would have been more than capable.

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Originally Posted by Zaknafien

its not a matter of if they would have wanted to, its a matter of the right kinds of materials availbile in sufficient numbers to create a fleet.

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:inquisitive: Caucasus and northern Persia still have densely forested areas, enough to provide building materials for a navy in the Caspian, as far as I know.

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios

Based on my experience with EB pirates: the way to get rid of them is to ignore them. Attack them, and they'll retaliate. Stay out of their way, pretend not to know about them blockading one port once in a while, and make sure your fleets are out of pirate attacking range. Pirates really come and go, and only stay if you hinder them.

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ya, ive noticed that if all your fleets stay in port, there are none. i havent seen a single pirate fleet for over 30 turns. maybe its because im after the marian reforms, when piracy was suppressed.

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Originally Posted by hooahguy14

ya, ive noticed that if all your fleets stay in port, there are none. i havent seen a single pirate fleet for over 30 turns. maybe its because im after the marian reforms, when piracy was suppressed.

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We can't control the spawn rate of pirates, so it has nothing to do with you passing the marian reforms. The suppression of piracy was an act made by people. If you want pirates to stop, you have to hunt them down.

Foot

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Originally Posted by Foot

If you want pirates to stop, you have to hunt them down.
Foot

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Ahhhh...A strategy after my own heart. Although a costly one...as it should be of course. :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by hooahguy14

ya, ive noticed that if all your fleets stay in port, there are none. i havent seen a single pirate fleet for over 30 turns. maybe its because im after the marian reforms, when piracy was suppressed.

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I would more think that other factions developed and are able to fight pirates with better ships, therefore killing them more efficiently:beam:

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Originally Posted by Foot

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

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darn it Foot you beat me to it..... haha


Fellas, don't forget this isn't just anyother mod, this is a Historical Mod. If you want major changes, please provide evidense, otherwise..... Foot is gonna put his foot down! :smash:

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Originally Posted by Foot

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

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im not bothered whether you change it, it wasnt too difficult to do it myself. i bow to your teams historical knowledge and i am not aware of there being naval conflict on the caspian within the time period.

here is an wiki about the rus raids on the caspian:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian...ons_of_the_Rus

they apparantly had a fleet of 500 ships, which does perhaps show that building a caspian navy was practically possible in the time period, though may never have been cotemplated at that time.

i am not sure where they got the wood for their ships, they quite probably built them in north-east europe and then sailed them down the rivers. they would theorietcally be an equally viable option during eb's time frame. i find it hard to believe that there is no suitable wood in any territory surrounding the caspian.

the fact is the people dominating the territory surrounding the caspian, tended to be horse-riding cultures never much interested in sailing. to my knowledge no persian/iranic culture ever did much navally, including in the persian gulf. in eb the steppe cultures are able to build ships as it is presumably envisaged that had they reached the med or the black sea they would have co-opted the local naval traditions.

i think it is feasible that my haysadan empire which rules all territories surrounding the black sea, could have built a caspian fleet had they so wished.

I personally went into descr_unit and brand down costs of ships to about 1/4 of their oringinal cost :P

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Originally Posted by Foot

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

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I'm ok with whichever way you work it but here's at least 1 port city that dates back to the EB time period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derbent

Having a trading port means that there are / were ships available on the Caspian and if you can make a trading ship - you can make a warship. Perhaps piracy wasn't an issue or the dominant countries of the time didn't wage any sea warfare. From what I managed to gleam, admittedly from web searches, is that there hasn't been extensive work done on the Caspian in terms of underwater research.

Given that there IS trade I would find it highly unlikely that (given the greedy SoB's human beings are) there wasn't piracy and also highly unlikely that the greedy SoB's getting pirated wouldn't do something to try and stop it :).

Good point. The merchants can build ships, the pirates can build ships (and not few), but an organized state can't.

The pirates don't block my ports often, so that's not the problem. I can ignore them and I do so.

If you say there's no historical evidence, OK. I understand that completely, although I think a game like EB is not only on what's historical, but also very much on what's historically feasable, presumable.

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Originally Posted by Foot

Look, if you guys can supply evidence that military vessels were constructed in the caspian, or can offer good arguments backed with evidence that ship-building on such a scale then we'll reconsider, but this idle chatter is not going to change our minds concerning the caspian. We would love to get rid of the pirates, but we cannot unless we also stop all trade in that region. Seeing as pirate fleets, and the ai in general, never hold a blockade for more than a turn or two we feel you guys can ignore them. Either that or you can change pirate spawning to almost nothing.

Foot

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A mini-mod made by someone in the community would do fine for me. I just think it's silly to forbid fleet building on any sea of considerable size. I understand it's a historical mod, but like I said, any correlation with real history stops in 272 BC, when the game starts. From then on, it's an alternate history. But, we can just agree to disagree. After all, it's not my mod. You should definitely create it how you see fit.:yes:

While there was certainly a local industry for building transporters and such to a lesser extent, and some scant trade by sea, no Parthian cities in the area bolstered any significant port, and there was no economically competitive nor significant factor in the northern reaches, thus as a consequence there is no reason to expand any industry of transporters beyond local needs, let alone vessels of war. Out of all the great waters, the Caspian Sea, beyond rich stocks of fish (The famed Persian sturgeon), and in spite of rich coastal areas, in particular the fertile Albania and well-watered Hyrcania famed for her dense forests, add to the the fact that the Sarmatians to the north did not share the same taste of commercial enterprise as the Parthians to the south. Hence, the Caspian area is not very lucrative at all in matter of trade. You can still build sizeable places of trade, but not beyond the possibilities for expansion, let alone a base for a navy.

Can you make that into a good FAQ type answer and drop it in the FAQ thread TPC? Or Foot? That would be nice. We have this question asked from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Bootsiuv

A mini-mod made by someone in the community would do fine for me. I just think it's silly to forbid fleet building on any sea of considerable size. I understand it's a historical mod, but like I said, any correlation with real history stops in 272 BC, when the game starts. From then on, it's an alternate history. But, we can just agree to disagree. After all, it's not my mod. You should definitely create it how you see fit.:yes:

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follow the instructions within this thread, the changes take 2 minutes and are save game compatible.

Indeed, those ships of the Rus' were built in Scandinavia, not in or near the Caspian.