Is it time to end the US trade embargo with Cuba?

This article just got me thinking:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TRAVEL/08/15....ap/index.html

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WASHINGTON (AP) -- In a first for an online travel company, Travelocity.com has been fined by federal regulators for booking trips between the U.S. and Cuba in violation of a 45-year-old embargo.

Travelocity.com earlier this month paid $182,750 to settle a complaint brought by the U.S. Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control, which said the company violated the prohibition nearly 1,500 times between January 1998 and April 2004.

Treasury's complaint said Travelocity "provided travel-related services in which Cuba or Cuban nationals had an interest by arranging air travel and hotel reservations to, from, with or within Cuba without an OFAC license."

Dozens of travel service providers have been granted licenses by OFAC for approved trips to and from Cuba for everything from academic, religious and journalistic activities to humanitarian projects and visits to immediate family.

Travelocity spokesman Joel Frey on Wednesday said the company had not applied for a license and did not intend to.

"The trips to Cuba were unintentionally permitted to be booked by consumers online because of some technical failures several years ago and it's just now being finally settled with OFAC," Frey wrote in an e-mail. "In no way did the company intend to allow bookings for trips to Cuba and the company has fully cooperated with OFAC and implemented corrective measures."

Treasury spokeswoman Molly Millerwise said any individual or business that violates the Cuban sanctions can face civil or criminal penalties. She declined to say if the Travelocity investigation had been closed.

Travelocity did not voluntarily disclose the alleged violations, but did cooperate with OFAC's investigation, according to the agency's enforcement action.

Southlake, Texas-based Travelocity is owned by Sabre Holdings Corp., which was taken private earlier this year by affiliates of Silver Lake Partners and Texas Pacific Group. Its major competitors include Orbitz Worldwide Inc. and Expedia Inc., which owns Expedia.com, hotels.com and Hotwire.

None of those companies are included on OFAC's approved list of travel service providers for Cuba.

A Mexican subsidiary of American Express Travel Related Services Co. Inc. also agreed to pay $16,625 to settle OFAC allegations of Cuba-related violations. In December 2002 and October 2003, the Mexican company made sales of group travel packages to Cuba, according to the government.

American Express voluntarily disclosed the information to OFAC, according to the enforcement action.

Elsewhere, OFAC fined one unnamed individual $999.45 and another person $510 for buying Cuban cigars for sale on the Internet

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I mean, I don't see the point anymore. I should be able to go on vacation and buy things from Cuba if I damn well please. It's not like we are funding terrorism.

If the Govt is so scared of Cuban "Communism" (I use the term in its losest meaning), then they should just look at what China openning its market has done. Now if Cuba were allowed to do the same thing, a similar result could occur.

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Originally Posted by CountArach

If the Govt is so scared of Cuban "Communism" (I use the term in its losest meaning), then they should just look at what China openning its market has done. Now if Cuba were allowed to do the same thing, a similar result could occur.

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I doubt the government is scared of Cuban Communism. The cold war has been over for 15 years. I think they are doing it to punish Fidel, because they absolutely hate the guy.

Beside, we trade with many other so called "communist countries".

Yes

Its an antiquated policy that is no longer relevant. If by chance someone finds a missle silo with a pending Russian armament being loaded okay fine.

Cuba isnt a threat, and a potential positive market for us goods and services. This would be an excellent 1st move in a new modern approach to foriegn policy.

No simply becuase I dont want Castro to have the satisfaction. Thats my reason and I dont care what you think:smash:

What will we get out of it if the embargo is lifted?

There remains only one reason to continue the embargo - Big Sugar. That is, American sugar corporations - they wouldn't really suffer (sugar is a better source of ethonal that corn - not as caustic), but by keeping things as they are it means they don't have to do anything to upgrade or change.

They were forced to swallow CAFTA, but are still choking on the after taste and doing anything they can to reduce it being a laissez-faire environment when it comes to sugar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAFTA

Florida is coping by spreading the word to the nations involved that they are best prepared to handle their flow of goods (and ours to theirs). Which doesn't placate Big Sugar in the least.

Regardless, Big Sugar remains a very powerful political lobby. Cuba, well, they don't.
:balloon2:

Something way old:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2005Apr15.html
Demonstrates that even the biggys lose occassionally - yeah, right.

I don't think Sugar is as powerful a lobby on this as is the Cuban expatriate community in Florida (though I agree they are using their leverage to maintain the lovely subsidized status quo) -- who just happen to be pro-embargo and willing to vote single issue over it in a state where the margin in razor thin. Neither party wants to offend them so this group of a few hundred thousand is dominating the issue.

I'm a history n00b, but why there is a embargo in Cuba?

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Originally Posted by Garcilaso de la Vega el Inca

I'm a history n00b, but why there is a embargo in Cuba?

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During the Cold War, America wanted to screw Cuba's economy, which was dependent at least in part to sugar exports. They probably hoped it would affect the stability of Castro's regime and all that; after all he was their evil genius for a long time. That the Cuban emigrants in the United States -- who mostly hate Castro with a passion -- lobbied heavily for the measure and continue to support it in exchange for votes only adds to the incentive of the cause.

Seamus did a much better explanation than me in any case.

In all practicality the embargo as it remains now is really a dick measure though.

Because once Castro had kicked out Batista -- a posterboy for corruption and graft -- he focused his anger on a lot of the US supporters of the previous regime. This sounded communist to the USA at the time -- we had a real thing about the Soviets -- and we reacted as negatively as possible. Then Castro shifted full into "people's republic" shoot anyone who supported the old regime and cuddle up to Russia to play them off against the USA mode.

We half-supported (just enough support to make everyone aware we were involved but not enough to make it work -- not that it had a lot of chance) an attempt by Cuban expatriates to invade Cuba and counter-coup the Castros at the Bay of Pigs.

The embargo is just a "economic sanctions" effort (like the ones the UN uses) that's supposed to punish the Castro regime, impoverish it, and encourage the locals to throw him out. It works just as well as most economic sanction programs -- the locals suffer economically but the leadership does just fine.

Strike, you do realize that the biggest beneficiary of the embargo is Castro himself, right? By enforcing it, we give him a monopoly on hard currency.

This embargo is about one thing, Cuban-Americans in South Florida voting as a block. It's the dumbest thing from so many levels, I don't know where to begin. What's more, from a strictly personal view, I'm tired of having to go to Europe or Canada for my cigars. I don't care what anybody says, there is a difference and Dominican and Honduran versions will never be as good. I want my authentic Romeo y Julietas. I want my Madrons. I want my Unicas. The real ones, not the ones they make for Americans in Guatamala.

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Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh

The embargo works just as well as most economic sanction programs -- the locals suffer economically but the leadership does just fine.

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The leadership does fine not only financially but politically. It's not Castro who keeps the people poor, it's those evil americans! Castro would ride on the lifted embargo, but it would give US companies a foot in the door too. And with the embargo lifted there would be no excuse if conditions don't start improving.

“It works just as well as most economic sanction programs -- the locals suffer economically but the leadership does just fine.” I saw the same effect in Serbia. Milosevic never lack of something, it was an open door to all smuggling, favours creation of mafia and gives to mobsters the upper hands. But I never saw a tank out of fuel… Saw a lot a people queuing for gas, food and medicaments…

“the biggest beneficiary of the embargo is Castro himself”: well, hat is the usual result. Sometimes, I wonder if in fact, it is the real goal. To keep a good-not-too-strong- bad guy the politicians will play with to keep being re-elected… Again Serbia, how to bomb it without Milosevic?:idea2:

Get rid of it. It's an out-dated, petty measure that has probably prolonged communism and Castro's tenure for years beyond their expiration date.

Nope, the only trade I would allow would be giving all of Michael Moore's food for Castro's cigars and rum. That should be the GDP of most small countries.

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

Nope, the only trade I would allow would be giving all of Michael Moore's food for Castro's cigars and rum. That should be the GDP of most small countries.

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The last time I laughed at one of your posts i got a warning. This one feels milder so I'll stick my neck out......


:laugh4:

I doubt it will be lifted while Castro lives. Pride and self interest will see to that.

I'm with SFTS.

I want to have this ancient policy seen through so that Castro can go down, democratic policies can be enacted and the 1950 cars can be renovated.


With the end of the Castro regime there would definitely be a flood of imports and exports out of Miami and Key West.

I want to say that at least one US embargo had an effect.

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Originally Posted by Marshal Murat

I'm with SFTS.

I want to have this ancient policy seen through so that Castro can go down, democratic policies can be enacted and the 1950 cars can be renovated.


With the end of the Castro regime there would definitely be a flood of imports and exports out of Miami and Key West.

I want to say that at least one US embargo had an effect.

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Shhh, don't tell anyone about this, but...

You know, I want to say that this one US embargo had an effect too, but I just can't. This one doesn't. It simply doesn't. Mr. Castro is on death's door for some natural causes and his defiant Damn-The-Yankees attitude hasn't broken down a bit.

And don't tell anyone about this too, but I think a certain popular South American President loves trading with Cuba for some magical reasons involving some antagonism with Washington. If nothing goes particularly wrong we can comfortably predict that he'll be propping up the Cuban regime for the foreseeable future anyway.

Bull-headed stick-it-out policy is so 2003.

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Originally Posted by Odin

The last time I laughed at one of your posts i got a warning. This one feels milder so I'll stick my neck out......


:laugh4:

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You got a warning for just laughing at one of my posts?

Sorry Bro...

Full reconcilliation would be very interesting to see: Cuban cigars flooding the U.S., tourists flocking to Havana, the previously impoverished people of Cuba flooded with American Dollars!

Sounds pretty good all around to me.

Keep the embargo , it makes the government look like small minded spoilt little brats

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Originally Posted by Devastatin Dave

You got a warning for just laughing at one of my posts?

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Just for the record:
Odin never received a warning.
For further discussions about this, please switch to PM or start a thread in the Backroom Watchtower

Thanks

:bow:

if you want the Cuban dictatorship to go down you lift the embargo.....it´s the simplest and most effective way really.

all it does is give Castro the "big bad American wolf" card so that he can use it in his dumb speeches

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Originally Posted by Divinus Arma

Full reconcilliation would be very interesting to see: Cuban cigars flooding the U.S., tourists flocking to Havana, the previously impoverished people of Cuba flooded with American Dollars!

Sounds pretty good all around to me.

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I think the people of Cuba will suffer from the lift if it's done at once. They're not used to living and working in a capitalistic environment and they will lose acces to what little the 'state shops' provided.

But a gradual lift would be the best solution for everyone. I just hope Havana will get restored to its old glory instead of being overrun by McD and other franchises. C'est la vie, I suppose.

I've long considered the continued embargo a mere act of stubborn pride on behalf of a government that can't abide the repeated humiliations they've suffered every time they've tried to deal with Castro. 'Why can't we just put this one little man in a little country right off our own shores in his place? And yet he outmaneuvers us every time.' It will take a little more political maturity (or Fidel's death, which will almost certainly come first) to end the embargo. I hadn't thought of the sugar and Cuban expatriate lobbies, though they make perfect sense, and make the issue sadly more complicated--not the issue of what should be done, but the issue of whether it will be.

Ajax

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Originally Posted by AntiochusIII

Bull-headed stick-it-out policy is so 2003.

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Gah! You hit it on the nail! LOL!! One might say "It's so 1957". :laugh4:

As a kid, I recall stores selling Castro style hats with beards - they were in ALL the stores. He was a hero here, for about a week (I know it was longer, but a week sounds neat ... eh?). Then suddenly he said something about communism, or socialism, or redistributing the wealth ... something like that anyway - and he became another boogeyman. Now this commy bad guy was 90 miles away - so, naturally we had to kill him. We drove him right into the Soviets hands - not that he wasn't going down that broke yellow brick road on his own.

Fifty years, and numerous embarrassments - Bay of Pigs (Ike's plan, JFK inherited it, but restricted our troops involvement to Special OPS), numerous outlandish assassination attempts (would have taken one suicide bomber), etc. Of course we did get through October 1962 (Missiles of Oct.) with concessions and agreements - basically we escaped MAD by the wits of Kennedy and a few advisors. After that though, it was a we hate Cuba because we hate Castro. Period. Every attempt by a Prez since then has ended up with egg on his face, because Castro still thinks he's a revolutionary - he gives a rats tail about the betterment of Cuba or its people - his concern is with keeping power.

Regardless, had we raised the embargo - we would have crushed him by opening the od Cuba markets to our goods. Face it, the Cubans (atleast those I know) love the opportunity to make money - profit - as much as anyone.

[Note: the Cubans here in Florida (America and else where - other than Cuba) hate Castro because he stole their lands and propertys for the peasants. It is all about property. Nothing more.]

Raise the embargoes and you end Castro's reign - all the Castros.
:balloon2:

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Originally Posted by doc_bean

But a gradual lift would be the best solution for everyone. I just hope Havana will get restored to its old glory instead of being overrun by McD and other franchises. C'est la vie, I suppose.

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What will happen is the same thing that has happened in China and Russia (two extremes of the spectrum). Nationalised industries will be given to whoever was lucky enough to have party connections. They will become multi-millionaires and the people will get screwed over as before.

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Originally Posted by Idaho

What will happen is the same thing that has happened in China and Russia (two extremes of the spectrum). Nationalised industries will be given to whoever was lucky enough to have party connections. They will become multi-millionaires and the people will get screwed over as before.

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As opposed to their current Utopia? Better do nothing and everyone is poor than risk doing something?

~:smoking:

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Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

As opposed to their current Utopia? Better do nothing and everyone is poor than risk doing something?

~:smoking:

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Thats why I've never understood the mindset of the socialist; everyone being of equal misery.