Faction symbols

I have always been interested in faction symbols. What do they mean, why have you chosen this and no other.

So in alphabetical order:

Aedui - a wild boar - I remember it was a sacred animal of one celtic goddess
AS - scales? do not know
Arverni - 2 hammers and a bowl ?
Bactria - leopard - sacred animal?
Casse - triple spiral - common celtic symbol
Epeiros - a dog, does it refer to molossian hounds?
Getai - a serpent - sacred animal?
Hayasdan - 2 birds and sun/flower? I have seen it on a coin
Kart-Hadast - a horse ?
KH - pegas why?
Lusotanans - ?
Makedonia - sun/star what does it mean?
Pahlava - gryph, common in their culture
Pontos - ?
Ptolemaioi - falcon - Hor(us)
Romani - eagle of Jupiter
Saba - horned animal of unknown species ?
Saka - idea came from some excaved Saka jewel?
Sauromatae - funny lizard ?
Sweboz - horns ?

I would be happy if you could explain me meaning of those with question mark and say if others are correct
Thank you

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Originally Posted by Diadoch

Arverni - 2 hammers and a bowl ?

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If I recall correctly, that was the symbol of Sucellos.

yes I think the Epeiros dog is the molossian hound

I think the Sauromatae symbol is a green dragon?
probably some important symbol or herald for the nomads...


I'm just as curious as you so we'll both be waitin for the reply of the EB team :2thumbsup:

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Originally Posted by Diadoch

Aedui - a wild boar - I remember it was a sacred animal of one celtic goddess

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The wheel was also an important symbol, which is why it is present there.

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AS - scales? do not know

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It is an inverted anchor. A symbol attributed to Apollo and also a supposed birthmark on the inner thigh of the Seleukid kings. There's more, but I'm feeling a bit lazy.

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Arverni - 2 hammers and a bowl ?

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Hammers and a war drum. Associated with a particular god - Kahju is probably correct.

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Bactria - leopard - sacred animal?

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An animal from the region, but also associated with Dionysos. Plus, it adds some variety because we already have Thundering Zeus as a in-battle banner

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Casse - triple spiral - common celtic symbol

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Yup.

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Epeiros - a dog, does it refer to molossian hounds?

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Yup, Molosson housnd.

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Getai - a serpent - sacred animal?

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It is actually a windsock or draco. A common military standard. The same goes for the Sauromatae.

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Hayasdan - 2 birds and sun/flower? I have seen it on a coin

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Probably taken from a coin, but I bet that one of the Armenian guys could give a detailed explanation of its significance.

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Kart-Hadast - a horse ?

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Can't remember why exactly, but it is important.

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KH - pegas why?

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Pegasus was a common icon in Greek culture.

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Lusotanans - ?

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I'll leave this to the Lusotannan guys.

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Makedonia - sun/star what does it mean?

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Nobody really knows. It just seems to be a common symbol of the Makedonian dynasties.

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Pahlava - gryph, common in their culture

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I'll leave this to Ario, but I do believe it has been influenced by the 1st Persian empire.

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Pontos - ?

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Star and crescent moon. I believe it is common on Pontic coins.

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Ptolemaioi - falcon - Hor(us)

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Zeus' eagle, actually, and on almost every freaking coin they ever minted.

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Romani - eagle of Jupiter

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Bingo.

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Saba - horned animal of unknown species ?

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Ibex, which is common to the region.

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Saka - idea came from some excaved Saka jewel?

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Yup.

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Sauromatae - funny lizard ?

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Same as the Getai - draco.

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Sweboz - horns ?

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Bah, I read what it is somewhere in EBH, but I can't remember. Probably a Germanic symbol found somewhere. Reminds me more of the Klingon symbol than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Diadoch

I have always been interested in faction symbols. What do they mean, why have you chosen this and no other.

So in alphabetical order:

Aedui - a wild boar - I remember it was a sacred animal of one celtic goddess
AS - scales? do not know
Arverni - 2 hammers and a bowl ?
Bactria - leopard - sacred animal?
Casse - triple spiral - common celtic symbol
Epeiros - a dog, does it refer to molossian hounds?
Getai - a serpent - sacred animal?
Hayasdan - 2 birds and sun/flower? I have seen it on a coin
Kart-Hadast - a horse ?
KH - pegas why?
Lusotanans - ?
Makedonia - sun/star what does it mean?
Pahlava - gryph, common in their culture
Pontos - ?
Ptolemaioi - falcon - Hor(us)
Romani - eagle of Jupiter
Saba - horned animal of unknown species ?
Saka - idea came from some excaved Saka jewel?
Sauromatae - funny lizard ?
Sweboz - horns ?

I would be happy if you could explain me meaning of those with question mark and say if others are correct
Thank you

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-The Ptolemaioi one is an eagle, the one found on so many of the coins of the Ptolemies and for that matter many of the coins of just about any Hellenistic kingdom. The pale yellow color matches well with the deserts around the NIle also.
-Pontos has their star and crescent, found often on the coins of the Pontic kings, and referred to by some specialists as something near their royal emblem. Sometimes their coins are surrounded by grape/ivy clusters in a border also. The colors of green (pale) and purple take a cue from that last part and also from the fact that they fit well in the crowded area and also that we saw photos of the royal tombs at Amaseia lit up at night in green and purple. :grin:
-KH has pegasos because it is among the most common of all symbols on greek city state coins, and very distinctive too. Doesn't bias towards Sparta or Athens (to the exclusion of the other) also, which was nice. The colors are of terracotta and black, the two found on most Greek vases.
-Baktria has the leopard, sacred animal of dionysos, on a lapis lazuli type background. With blue and gold as their colors. There is a small grape vine with grape clusters also in the symbol, which further is a symbol of Dionysos. He was said to have conquered all of those lands in earlier 'mythological' times, and it also shows the fertility/wildness/mineralresources of the region all in one symbol. It comes directly off a Baktrian coin.

Hayasdan's symbol is taken from the crown of Tigran II the Great, and is was the royal symbol of the Artaxiad Dynasty. Technically it is not correct, as it has no place in Orontid Armenia, which is our start-date, but it was made before I joined the team and I haven't been able to find another more suitable icon for Hayasdan yet. I will though, you'll probably see a change in EB2.

Foot

I was always curious about the usage of battle-banners and such and especially about how much widespreaded they were?

Roman uniformity is almost legendary, but did it function before the Marian era? And what about the other nations? Soldiers were fighting without any uniformity and with the organization and discipline (or lack of them) of the peasant rabble or with the recklessness of medieval knights or what?

What was the situation with the battle communication? I guess that RTW is highly unrealistic with its "easy to control" armies, when the orders where given by runners or by special signals played on the drums?

BTW, what strategy game has the most realistic battles, in your opinion (besides EB)?

Saka Rauca symbol has been found on funerary steles, including some on Mongolia which are believed to be tombstones of dead kings. Those were dated at about 800 BCE.

The symbol was part of a treasure dug out of Tilya Tepe, in what was Baktrian lands, after the Sakarauca took over, not a coin.

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Originally Posted by abou

Zeus' eagle, actually, and on almost every freaking coin they ever minted.

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I believed that falcon was more important in egyptian culture than eagle as a symbol of Hor (Horus), protector of pharaohs and that Ptolemaics continued in worshiping him. Edfu is a temple of Horus and was built by them. :book:
So they actually brought a cult of eagle from Greece? Interesting.

Well, it wasn't really the cult of an eagle, afaik. It was the worship of Zues, which, if I'm not mistaken, was eventually changed and integrated (like in many other places Alexandros conquered) to Zues-Amun, because Amun (Ra) was more akin with Zues in egyptian religion than Horus.

The eagle was a symbol of power associated with Zues, much like the thunderbolt. :)

I live in Houston TX, and in the Houston Museum of Natural Science there was an exhibit on ancient Kazakhstani art. And guess what I saw there: some pretty Saka gold brooches and buckles- one of which looked EXACTLY like their current banner. That was pretty cool.:balloon2:

Playing Makedonia since a while, I always thought their "sun/star" is the Phalanx or a sea of spears!

The Pahlavân symbol is actually a mythological winged lion completely based off the Ecbatana golden roundel which dates to the Achaemenid age; I was not around when this symbol was chosen for faction symbol, and at first may seem like an attribution of Achaemenid legacy to the Parthians, but the truth is that Iranian mythology persisted strongly, and with the largely Mithraist following among the original Parthians, many Iranian myths and legends were eventually passed down to the national epic of Iran as written by Ferdôwsî of Tûs.

The symbol could equally have been the Sên-Murv/Sîmurgh, Ahûrâ Mazdâ/Frâvahâr, Derafsh-i Kâvîyânîg, Crescent and sun of Mithras, a Persepolitan lotus, winged bull, a clan's crest or Bâskûch/Ghôrêd... But ultimately a winged lion found from the heart of Iran was chosen, representing Parthian ambition, legacy, inspiration, and power. No other symbol could represent these things all in the same time. With a background of a purple honeycomb pattern, the image is completed.

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Originally Posted by abou

The wheel was also an important symbol, which is why it is present there.
It is an inverted anchor. A symbol attributed to Apollo and also a supposed birthmark on the inner thigh of the Seleukid kings. There's more, but I'm feeling a bit lazy.
Hammers and a war drum. Associated with a particular god - Kahju is probably correct.
An animal from the region, but also associated with Dionysos. Plus, it adds some variety because we already have Thundering Zeus as a in-battle banner
Yup.
Yup, Molosson housnd.
It is actually a windsock or draco. A common military standard. The same goes for the Sauromatae.
Probably taken from a coin, but I bet that one of the Armenian guys could give a detailed explanation of its significance.
Can't remember why exactly, but it is important.
Pegasus was a common icon in Greek culture.
I'll leave this to the Lusotannan guys.
Nobody really knows. It just seems to be a common symbol of the Makedonian dynasties.
I'll leave this to Ario, but I do believe it has been influenced by the 1st Persian empire.
Star and crescent moon. I believe it is common on Pontic coins.
Zeus' eagle, actually, and on almost every freaking coin they ever minted.
Bingo.
Ibex, which is common to the region.
Yup.
Same as the Getai - draco.
Bah, I read what it is somewhere in EBH, but I can't remember. Probably a Germanic symbol found somewhere. Reminds me more of the Klingon symbol than anything else.

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maybe they used something like the top symbol on the left speartip.
For obvious reasons EB didn´t use the swastica

http://www.swastika-info.com/de2/wor...3c09c6ea2e3c3f

I'm guessing that the tree on the Carthagian symbol refers to the Cedars of Phoencia/Lebanon....and the horses, perhaps the Sacred Band?

The Lusotanan factions symbol looks suspiciously much like a Bronze Age sun wheel, which is very commonly found in southern Scandinavia and on the Iberian peninsula. The Saka symbol, though, looks very much like Scythian craftmanship, but I suppose the Saka adopted a similar style when they came across the remanants of the Scythian culture.

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Originally Posted by Axel JD

The Lusotanan factions symbol looks suspiciously much like a Bronze Age sun wheel, which is very commonly found in southern Scandinavia and on the Iberian peninsula. The Saka symbol, though, looks very much like Scythian craftmanship, but I suppose the Saka adopted a similar style when they came across the remanants of the Scythian culture.

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yes, the Nation Geographic once had a Scythian article and some of the stuff looks very similar to the Saka symbol :yes:

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Originally Posted by KuKulzA

yes, the Nation Geographic once had a Scythian article and some of the stuff looks very similar to the Saka symbol :yes:

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Ah, yes, I remember that article. It was something like two or three years ago, right? How much does that score on your average geek test, I wonder?

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Originally Posted by Axel JD

The Lusotanan factions symbol looks suspiciously much like a Bronze Age sun wheel, which is very commonly found in southern Scandinavia and on the Iberian peninsula. The Saka symbol, though, looks very much like Scythian craftmanship, but I suppose the Saka adopted a similar style when they came across the remanants of the Scythian culture.

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The Lusitani symbol is a common symbol that is found engraved in walls and steles in a number of Castra and Oppida north of the Tagus river. Dated from around the 3rd and 2nd century, so reasonably adequate, though not perfect.

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Originally Posted by Cybvep

Roman uniformity is almost legendary, but did it function before the Marian era? And what about the other nations? Soldiers were fighting without any uniformity and with the organization and discipline (or lack of them) of the peasant rabble or with the recklessness of medieval knights or what?

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well, the romans did not have "uniformity". we know from tacitus that legions or cohorts had some indivitual shield designs and from some texts like the HA, where we have a sentence mentioning that the praetorians wore their swords on the right not on the left (like it was common by the 2nd century. see vita semptimii severi), that there were some things which were common or different between units. equpiment was more influenced by the factories nearby, so you get some similarities but in general there's no indication of "uniformity".. there are also field modifications found and some of the artistic depictions (like the adamklissi metopes or the arch of severus which i posted in the thread about romans in films) inticate a variety of equipment from hamata, segmentata, squamata, shields, pila and spears among the legionary troops, probably depending on situation and purpose.

The Carthage Faction Symbol

Represents the arms of Carthage that displays a horse resting under a palm tree. The first emigrants to land on the heights of Byrsa are said to have dug up the skull of a horse at the foot of a tree, at the spot which commands the entire landscape, and to have adopted the emblem for the city they proposed to build.

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Originally Posted by Axel JD

Ah, yes, I remember that article. It was something like two or three years ago, right? How much does that score on your average geek test, I wonder?

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no its not geeky... Scythian article was friggin cool :2thumbsup:

I believe the Sweboz symbol relates to Woden in some way. It's supposed to be three horns inter-linked, methinks. I don't know why that was chosen, but it's not like there are many other alternatives.

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Originally Posted by Eduorius

The Carthage Faction Symbol

Represents the arms of Carthage that displays a horse resting under a palm tree. The first emigrants to land on the heights of Byrsa are said to have dug up the skull of a horse at the foot of a tree, at the spot which commands the entire landscape, and to have adopted the emblem for the city they proposed to build.

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I just ready that same sentence in a book this morning. You might want to cite the source as its a pretty good book...

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Originally Posted by KuKulzA

no its not geeky... Scythian article was friggin cool :2thumbsup:

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It was, wasn't it? I just re read it and it really made me wanna play Sauromatae or the Saka Rauka. All those horse archers...

Well the book is Hannibal by Theodore Ayrault Dodge and is a great book for everyone who is interested in warfare during the Punic Wars period.

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Originally Posted by Cybvep

I was always curious about the usage of battle-banners and such and especially about how much widespreaded they were?

Roman uniformity is almost legendary, but did it function before the Marian era? And what about the other nations? Soldiers were fighting without any uniformity and with the organization and discipline (or lack of them) of the peasant rabble or with the recklessness of medieval knights or what?

What was the situation with the battle communication? I guess that RTW is highly unrealistic with its "easy to control" armies, when the orders where given by runners or by special signals played on the drums?

BTW, what strategy game has the most realistic battles, in your opinion (besides EB)?

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Romans still had relative uniformity before Marius, but I doubt it was nearly as spectacular. They had legions and formations, but as someone above said, shields and armor were often different among different men. Other nations had different systems, and even "barbarian" peoples had degrees of organization, but they had little to no uniformity. The Greek powers (Seleukia, Ptolemaioi, Makedonia, etc.) were extremely uniform, because they were using phalanx-based armies.

Battle communication didn't exist, mostly. The general had many subcommanders who were given specific instructions before the battle and told to go with it. So in reality, the position of the player in the game would have been one of almost zero control. The Romans though, as I understand, used horns to direct various actions, though I don't know what. Perhaps the changing out of units with fresh ones and such. Barbarian factions I know nothing about, but I can assume that they had a lesser degree of complex battle plans and the troops acted more individually.

However, I am no historian and don't claim to be one, so I leave myself open to be corrected by one of the actual historians here.

To change orders midbattle, a general could use banners or flags. Generally, they had to stick to their main plan and all be prepared to change it based on enemy actions. The Romans used horns, which they copied from the Celts.

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Originally Posted by Teutobod II

maybe they used something like the top symbol on the left speartip.
For obvious reasons EB didn´t use the swastica

http://www.swastika-info.com/de2/wor...3c09c6ea2e3c3f

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I was under the impression the swastica was a more Celtic symbol, and was adopted by the Germanic tribes because of the Celtic influence?

I've always wondered what's epeiros' symbol... it looks like a weird...dog?:inquisitive:

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Originally Posted by ||Lz3||

I've always wondered what's epeiros' symbol... it looks like a weird...dog?:inquisitive:

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Molossian hounds were famous in Greece for being excellent guards and help in the hunt. They were used all over and it's said they were so big that battled with boars and kept away wolves and leopards.

Plus they come from that region (Epeiros) *and* they are found, distinctively, on Epeirote poleis' coinage. It was that or a bearded face of Zeus (the one you see on the Epeirote general's or captain's standards) and we felt this was much more unique and appropriate.

wow- i just boosted my history knowledge by a lot today- wow- i had no idea about the faction symbols- i knew they came from either gods or artifacts from their areas, but i had no idea the specifics!

Of course there is anothe famous symbol for Epeiros, the Charging bull, but that is the emblem of "Koinon of Epeiros" which was formed 50 years later than the start date.

As such Molossian hound is perfect, as Molossians were the "top dog" among Epeiros tribes (if you pardon the pun) and whose King' Pyrrhos marked the most glorious time of Epeiros (or Apeiros as the Apeirotai called their land in their version of Dorian greek)

if im not mistaken, the symbol for Arche Seleukia, was a minature inverted anchor that seleukos carried around as a goodluck charm, or somthing like what we call "keychains" today.

The Roman legionary eagle and Macedonian Vergina sun are obvious, and I've seen the Seleucid and Carthaginian symbols on plenty of coins, but where do the other faction symbols come from? Also, why are there two different Lusotanna symbols?

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Originally Posted by option

The Roman legionary eagle and Macedonian Vergina sun are obvious, and I've seen the Seleucid and Carthaginian symbols on plenty of coins, but where do the other faction symbols come from? Also, why are there two different Lusotanna symbols?

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The Hayasdan symbol is wrong, it is from a later timeframe of another ruling dynasty. However, there was no symbol found about the EB starting timeframe, so they used one from later times.

The EB Hayasdan are ruled by the Orontids, the house of Yervanduni.

The used symbol is from the Artaxiad dynasty, around the time Lucullus fights Tigranes.

~Fluvius

Uh...I know Epeiros depicts the Mollosson hound...there's a nice little story about that. I don't know whether they used it because it was a used symbol or because it was an Epirite legend thingymajig.

The Ptolemoi...you get that kinda bird in Egypt (its a hawk or something)...

I don't really have a clue what I'm talking about...I just wanted to join in...

The Aedui boar is of course the boar that is eaten by Oberlix at every feast..:clown:

~Fluvius

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Originally Posted by /Bean\

The Ptolemoi...you get that kinda bird in Egypt (its a hawk or something)...

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An Eagle... Very popular symbol in Egypt and surroundings. Probably the most common picture on a Ptolemaic coin.

Yeah I know...durr. That's common knowledge around here, Moros. :sweatdrop:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...action+symbols

I will copy what I said in an other thread about this:

The Hayasdan symbol is wrong, it is from a later timeframe of another ruling dynasty. However, there was no symbol found about the EB starting timeframe, so they used one from later times.

The EB Hayasdan are ruled by the Orontids, the house of Yervanduni.

The used symbol is from the Artaxiad dynasty, around the time Lucullus fights Tigranes.

~Fluvius

whaoh you revived an old thread here :inquisitive:

There's another thread with the same name that's a tad bit recent, it was probably an accident to necro this thread.

EDIT:And this thread was linked to this one, causing people to bump this one in response.

Maybe it should be sticky'd

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Originally Posted by Foot

Hayasdan's symbol is taken from the crown of Tigran II the Great, and is was the royal symbol of the Artaxiad Dynasty. Technically it is not correct, as it has no place in Orontid Armenia, which is our start-date, but it was made before I joined the team and I haven't been able to find another more suitable icon for Hayasdan yet. I will though, you'll probably see a change in EB2.

Foot

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The EB team knows it. ;-)

But this thread has answers to the other thread of people who know about it. It was my intention to bring this thread back up, because this anwers almost the complete other thread's question.

~Fluvius

Makedonian symbol: it's called Vergina sun : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun

For Carthaginian symbol, AFAIR, on the forum exist one thread where one guy did put a link on the site showing some Carthaginian coin: the head used on EB faction banner seems to be from that coin.

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Originally Posted by kekailoa

I was under the impression the swastica was a more Celtic symbol, and was adopted by the Germanic tribes because of the Celtic influence?

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AFAIk the swatika is an Indian symbol that was during the nazi time attributed to the early germans and then adopted by the NSDAP:inquisitive:

Jeez. Your wiki-fu is weak, boys. *Extremely* widespread and popular symbol.
The Nazis were just poseur faggots who pilfered every cool thing they could find.

Well apparantly the Saba icon isn't really explained yet.
As abou said it's not just some horned animal, it's an ibex which weren't only common there it was also the animal of Almaqah (or in sabaic inscriptions: 'LMQH, 'LMQHW). This was the main god of the Sabaeans. But it was also the one thing that bound the Sabaeans and the other communities together. The god and temples of Almaqah which not only played an important role in Religion but also in politics, law,... It was almost the cement holding the Sabaean state together. Of course it being the animal and depiction of Almaqah it's the most common element in Sabaic art. From architecture, tools, stèles,...almost everything.

Hence the obvious choice.

Ok, so I googled a little and found this:

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Sucellus was depicted carrying a long-handed hammer and a cauldron, suggesting that those who invoked his name, either ask him for protection or provision.

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Arduinna was the Gallic goddess of the forest and hunting, which the Romans had identified her with Diana (Artemis). Arduinna had been depicted in art, riding on the back of a wild boar. She seemed to be popular around the Ardennes region.

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I also found that the boar was a symbol of courage and popular design for coins. But didn't find anything about the wheel which sb told to be important.

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Originally Posted by abou

Hammers and a war drum. Associated with a particular god - Kahju is probably correct.

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Actually it's a cup and not a war drum